[Quoheleth]

As I get closer to getting my CCL (take the class in either Sept. or Oct., depending on when it's offered & scheduling), I’m wrestling with what to carry and where to carry it on Sunday mornings.

I’ve been thinking that the kel-tek .32 or .380 or Ruger LCP would be my choice. They are small & flat, disappear into the front pocket of a pair of slacks (my usual Sunday morning attire, outside of the service) and relatively inexpensive. From comments I’ve read here, most seem to be able to shoot them reasonably well (6”) out to about 20 feet or so.

But this morning I realized that if a BG entered through our doors at the rear of the sanctuary, and I were at the front of the chancel (altar area), I would be more like 20 YARDS+ away. The very characteristics that make the KT or LCP an excellent pocket auto (and close-range weapon) could make it difficult to use at that distance should, God forbid, I need it. I’ve held both KTs and LCPs: are these weapons capable of accurately engaging man-sized targets at that distance?

So, that’s got me wondering if I should pursue something a bit bigger with better sighting equipment – Bersa .380 concealed carry, PT111, XD9c, M&P9c all come to mind, along with a j-frame Smith or Taurus. While these provide better sights and better grip, they become conspicuous for pocket carry w/out a coat or something worn over the top (I see the similar thread here about PF9 vs j-frame). During the worship service I wear full vestments – alb (full-length robe) gathered at the waist with a cincture (rope). A larger weapon in the pocket wouldn't be a problem then; the robe covers the bulging pockets. But between services and after the late service, I wear only slacks & shirt – rarely a suitcoat – so bulging pockets would be a quick giveaway.

I could carry in the pocket during the service and then transition to IWB during Bible class and after-church meetings, but I would prefer to not have to move the weapon around, even in the privacy of my office.

That leaves ankle carry. I saw an episode of downrange TV where Todd Jarrett was demonstrating how weapons in different positions could be brought into action. The ankle was no where as fast as untucked-IWB, but it also provides the benefit of dropping into a crouching position, making a smaller target.

Honestly I’ll probably have to begin my carry process with an IWB weapon – I don’t have funds to purchase a new carry weapon AND my license. I have a full-size MP9, 3” SP101, and 1911 in my safe; I would probably use the SP101 to start, tucked IWB, and hope that should something happen I could get to it fast enough. I just couldn't see toting that SP101 in an ankle holster...

I’m sorry this is long; I wanted to explain my thoughts and why I am thinking what I am thinking. If I am wrong and KTs and LCPs can be used to engage targets at 20+ yards, the rest of this is moot. If, however, their diminutive size, sights, and grips make such shooting difficult then I need to be thinking of other options.

Thanks,
Q

[springmom]

I’ve been thinking that the kel-tek .32 or .380 or Ruger LCP would be my choice. They are small & flat, disappear into the front pocket of a pair of slacks (my usual Sunday morning attire, outside of the service) and relatively inexpensive. From comments I’ve read here, most seem to be able to shoot them reasonably well (6”) out to about 20 feet or so.

But this morning I realized that if a BG entered through our doors at the rear of the sanctuary, and I were at the front of the chancel (altar area), I would be more like 20 YARDS+ away. The very characteristics that make the KT or LCP an excellent pocket auto (and close-range weapon) could make it difficult to use at that distance should, God forbid, I need it. I’ve held both KTs and LCPs: are these weapons capable of accurately engaging man-sized targets at that distance?

Actually, the question is, are you capable, under stress, of shooting someone when your entire congregation is between you and the target?

I would VERY strongly suggest that if you are worried about security at your church, that you talk to some of the folks in the church who do carry and develop a plan to deal with such an event. YOU are in the absolutely worst place in the building to do anything at all.

Carry where you want; but let other people be the first intervention in a crisis. You cannot do it safely, not from the sanctuary area.

Springmom

[Quoheleth]

Good points; and yes, we are discussing it in various groups. A member is an HPD officer (20-year veteran) and he's guiding the process with us.

Don't misunderstand me...my job is to be pastor, not security. I know that, and I have to trust that the others who are part of our contingency plans are on the ball.

But my family is also sitting there in the pews...

Q

[L'attente]

It also seems slightly contradictory in your position - shouldn't you be the epitome of peace?

I'm not arguing with your choice to carry or exercise your rights, but would your parish understand and except their religious leader shooting someone?

[ByAnyMeans]

I think it's great that your talking security because a shepard must defend his flock. I must also agree with springmom that your in the worst position to be effective in most siutations and you need a plan with other members taking up the slack.

[1911 guy]

I lead the worship and singing portion of our Sundat services before the Pastor coes up to preach, so I'm in, physically at least, the same position as you.

A lot depends on how "huggy" your church is. I can get away with (and do) carrying a 5" 1911 with a couple reloads because we're a bunch of handshakers. My last church, however, was all huggers. I couldn't have hidden my wifes' .380 on my waist.

Carry what you feel comfortable with. Approaching others about CCW in church can be touchy if they'd rather you not know.

I'm also the rather un-official security guy at church, mainly because I'm the only one who has a clue. The Pastor asked me to write a security plan and I wrote it just general enough that it can be adapted to nearly any building. If you'd like, PM me your e-mail and I'll attach a copy back to you.

[1911 guy]

This is a response to a different comment in the thread.
Quote:
It also seems slightly contradictory in your position - shouldn't you be the epitome of peace?

I'm not arguing with your choice to carry or exercise your rights, but would your parish understand and except their religious leader shooting someone?


There's nothing at all contradictory about it. Most religions teach peace through education and conversion, not ignoring evil and letting yourself be walked all over. Groups like that have a habit of going extinct. Personally, I'd rather have a Pastor or religious leader protect me than be too heavenly to be of any earthly good. I can't and won't cite examples for two reasons. First, this is Olegs' private area and he allows us in under certain rules and religious quarreling is one of them. Secondly, I've no idea what faith the O.P. is and it really doesn't matter in the context.

[Technosavant]

OK, here's how I do it.

Much depends on the style of dress. While some churches have become much more casual, that works against you when it comes to what can be carried. Business casual extremely limits the choices of carry to small pocket or ankle guns, which when you're looking at 25 yard engagement ranges can be pretty marginal unless you are VERY well practiced. You could go all Rick Warren with an untucked Hawaiian shirt, but to me that's far too casual for preaching (just my preference)

Sunday mornings, I wear a jacket all the time; either a full up suit or a sport coat and slacks. I carry OWB, concealed by the jacket, usually a 5" 1911 for a CZ P-01. I'll have a pocket gun as well (usually a S&W 642). I buy my suit jackets and sport coats a size or two large for this purpose- I don't have any problems with printing or the gun becoming visible (I go for the holster at about a 4 o' clock position). I keep that gun in a bag as I go into church and then put it back right as I am about to leave (usually not wearing the coat then).

Standing at the pulpit, I have by far the best field of view of the sanctuary as well as the best firing position. If somebody comes in the doors, I see them first (usually before they come in due to the windows). With the pulpit (we have an older large style one, the new thin or acrylic pulpits won't work for this) I have some extra concealment- it would only count as "cover" with extremely low powered weapons. But it gives me that extra half second to get to the gun before it becomes obvious.

Yes, it is better to have others in the church who can handle this (if you have a sound booth in the back, that would be ideal), but it is not always possible.

[youngda9]

"It also seems slightly contradictory in your position - shouldn't you be the epitome of peace?"

Are you trying to imply that all religious people shouldn't take any measures to defend themselves or their families?

If the lord wants to have a discussion with a BG prior to sending him to burn in hell:fire:, he just might send him to see the good pastor. The pastor can punch his ticket to meet his maker. The lord works in mysterious ways. :D

[Bennett Prescott]

Quoheleth,

I am 100% behind you, I'm glad to see one more person who defines their decision to carry by the likelihood of them being attacked, rather than the likelihood of them going crazy and shooting someone in "a place of peace" (apparently if you shoot someone elsewhere it's better).

I put a lot of rounds through my new LCP to see exactly how comfortable I would be in using it. I view that gun, and guns like it, as being extremely concealable secondary weapons most of the time, and primary weapons when my usual rig won't fly. In that capacity, I cannot imagine having a need for it beyond maybe 7 yards.

Based on my experience with the LCP so far I have no doubt whatsoever that I can shoot minute of man at 7 yards. Actually, I can do considerably better than that now that I've gotten more used to the trigger pull, but statistically if I need to use the LCP it will be at 2 yards, so I'm more than all set.

[Tirod]

I recently completed my CCW. My class had the usual wide variety of students, and the oldest ( a fellow alumni who graduated just a few short years ahead of me ) was the designated "Church Security Deacon" from his congregation.

Our area had recently gone through a church shooting, it's caused a lot of thinking that we aren't so protected here down in the Ozark shires. That incident was basically a personal dispute brought to their church. I've seen issues like that before: women who insist on worshipping being chased down by possessive others, infidelities pleaded after the sermon, etc.

The local impression is to have qualified door greeters and ushers who can be the first line of defense in a situation - especially during service when the hallways get quiet and nobody seems to be out and aware. I would be more comfortable with an usher helping to guide latecomers than a pastor or songleader making a belated stand in the sanctuary.

Be careful how you ask your congregation to assist in this, you might get a much larger response than you counted on!

[Matt-J2]

Now, I'm not a preacher, nor even religious in any way, but if I were, I'd have to think long and hard about pointing a gun towards my congregation..flock...whatever is called. Flip the view to that of someone sitting in the church, and all of a sudden the person at the altar whips out a pistol and points it at the crowd. The results could end up even worse. Not as likely, but something to consider.
The whole situation is tricky. Lots and lots of innocent bodies to get in the way. Good move to be thinking about it, though, certainly.

[1911 guy]

Quote:
The local impression is to have qualified door greeters and ushers who can be the first line of defense in a situation - especially during service when the hallways get quiet and nobody seems to be out and aware. I would be more comfortable with an usher helping to guide latecomers than a pastor or songleader making a belated stand in the sanctuary.

And I believe local sentiment to be correct. Part of my "master plan" (evil laugh) is ushers/greeters who are an early warning system of sorts. Add some sort of communication to this (cell phones would be best, IMO) and you've got something. There are some other issues I raise that would add to their effectiveness, but the basic issue is true. Better a confrontation of any sort in the lobby or foyer than in a crowded sanctuary.

[Sistema1927]

I am a pastor. I carry a Kahr PM9 in a pocket holster all day, every day.

You need to make sure that someone else has your back, shooting across your congregation is a bad idea.

You also need to reconsider the idea of changing mode of carry between Sunday School and your worship service. This is a recipe for disaster. You need to settle on one mode of carry, and keep it holstered without having to worry about an ND while reholstering, etc.

You also need to examine your anthropology and your theology. Unless you have asked the hard questions related to self-defense, and have come to the conclusion that you can morally and righteously take a human life under certain circumstances (your personal "rules of engagement"), then you shouldn't carry. Note that this applies to everyone, and not just clergy persons.

[gidaeon]

I'm in a similar situation as a pastor myself. Here's my thoughts: My pulpit is nearly centered between two main entrance doors behind the foyer area, everyone else back is to those doors, I'm the only one facing during service save for musician(s) when they're up there. We are fairly casual dress, and I don't sport the jacket all that often, which means I'm tucked button up and nice slacks. (Guys with robes have a benefit of sorts here except for quick access.) We also have a nice big wood pulpit that helps hide a lot.. but when you're not behind it and shaking peoples hands or if its a particularly huggy-place?

I have a nice IWB for a full size s&w but I just find it too hard to conceal for church when I'm greeting and moving around a lot. So I've taken to the Ruger LCP most of the time IWB or in a good very concealed pocket holster. I think those guns you asked about ARE capable of man-sized targets at the range in the right hands, the question is the user and their comfort level. I never expect to use mine at that kind of range though. As others said its just unlikely. Do some research on peoples scanned targets from those guns at those ranges. Groups won't be the same as target guns of course. I'm not particularly great with mine though. Its not always realistic to expect to get a good sight picture in such chaos, with any gun. I would hope to not engage at distances like what you're talking about. Myself, gotta be closer and certain. I'm not throwing caution to the wind but trying to protect and that means not causing more problems in the process. I'm don't see firing over or through frantic peoples bodies and heads. A few quickly thrown hymnals and Bibles to buy a second or two and a mad dash, evaluating and thinking all the while... and a controlled but clear directive to folks around.

I see you wear robes for part, but since you loose them between you need to work to the lower denominator. Nothing is easier to hide than the belly guns you talked about, but they are a compromise. I've decided conceal ability was a top concern so that's where I'm at. I agree, you don't want to be moving\changing weapons. Bad idea, you'd soon rightly hate it and it adds unnecessary risk certainly.

1911 Guy speaks wisely.

[Quoheleth]

Again, to clarify:

I am not a police officer. My training at this point is minimal - I will have taken the class (of course) before carrying, and I have read and continue to read works such as Mas Ayoob's The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery. Additional classes are desirable, but that will have to be "as the budget allows."

I am not unstable, nor do I think a pistol makes me Superman. I do not plan to whip out a pistol anytime a stranger enters the sanctuary in the middle of a service, and PALE RIDER is not my favorite movie.

I am a pastor and not a security officer. I believe the worship service to be a reverent place of worship and the church building shouldn't be a place for physical violence. My job is to preach & teach. Neither the US Constitution nor my church constitution gives me the right or responsibility to be the body-guard for the entire church. I have to be a part of a comprehensive plan, not a one-stop-shop means of defending a congregation.

However, I understand - whether I like it or not - that the world is different than it was when my granddad was pastoring. The church is no longer sacrosanct and safe from violence. Should someone enter the sanctuary with the obvious intent to do harm (i.e. brandishing a firearm) to me, to my family, and my flock, the situation has definitely changed. Peace is the first choice; sometimes a second option is necessary.

Several posts have raised the question about how smart is it for me to potentially face an armed man with dozens of people nearby. True. I am not Mel Gibson or Danny Glover, and don't intend to attempt to be like them. Would I - theologically/anthropologically - could I shoot someone in self-defense? Yes if my/my family's life was in danger. With other innocent people nearby? I'm a good shot; confident of my ability AT THE RANGE; but I've never been in THAT situation. I won't be an arrogant mall ninja and say "of course." If threatened anywhere, with or without a weapon in my hand, I hope & pray that through common sense and study/training I would react appropriately - whataver that means for the situation. Could I lose my job if I had to shoot? Maybe...(pastors are held to a higher sense of accountability)...probably...I don't know. But I would rather be able to go home with my wife & kids on a Sunday night instead of having to go make funeral arrangements for them on Monday.

That's where I am...it's hard to put it all down in writing so that it makes sense. I hope I don't sound like either an arrogant know-it-all or a terribly confused gimme a gun and it'll all be OK kind of man. There is a real tension in anyone carrying a firearm for defense and even moreso in my profession. I'm wrestling with it in the Sunday morning context and I hope you can appreciate that.

I appreciate the conversation here. It's open & honest, giving ANYONE who thinks of carrying much to think about. I appreciate that I am being encouraged to consider strongly the implications of the act of carrying without either being flamed or being hoisted as a champion of CCW. Again, this is not something I am approaching lightly but very seriously, knowing the implications are far greater than an extra 20 ounces or so to carry.

Need to run...
Q

[DocCas]

Interesting discussion. I have spent the past 31 years in the ministry, 23 of them as Senior Pastor of our present church. I also CCW. I usually wear suits or sport coat/slacks combinations and, for the most part, concealment of my S&W 9mm is not all that difficult. I am 5'10" and weigh about 180 lbs. I usually wear double-breasted suit coats which give me extra material for concealment. However, last evening, after our Wednesday evening service, one of our young gentlemen came up and gave me a big hug (he just turned 13 and is still all arms and legs). When he hugged me his left arm went around my OWB holster. It was obvious from the change in his expression that he knew immediately what it was he had accidently felt. However, he didn't bat an eye. He pretended nothing at all had happened, as did I, and he said good night, gathered up his little brother and big sister and walked out with his mother. It happens. The best reaction is no reaction.

As to the OP. If I am forced to do so I am prepared to defend myself, my family, and the family of God entrusted into my pastoral watch-care. I hate to think of the toll it would take on me, and my family, emotionally and spiritually to take the life of another human being, but I thought that very question over very carefully and prayerfully prior to applying for a carry permit. Then I signed the application. Lord willing I will never need it. But better to have it and never need it than to need it and not have it.

(In the interests of full disclosure, I am a "tent maker." A pastor who also holds down a full time job. The carry permit is a requirement of my job, not just me exercising my 2nd amendment right, although I think that is a very good thing to do!)

[Rmart30]

20 yards is a long shot with anything that small, they just arent made for that.
and under stress it would be almost impossible to safely get off a shot in a crowd.

Is the pulpit a post stand type, or is it a box type where underneath you have storage ?
If its the box type is there room under it enough for a brief case or small soft sided attache case? If that was the case you could keep a full size in it and it would be readily handy. My pastor always carried a case with his books and sermon and placed it under the pulpit and arrianged his papers before service started. .

I agree that if yourself and a cpl of the congregation prepare a plan it would be much better. I wouldnt want the 2 who were also carrying to be sitting next to each other, one near the rear on one side and another mid ways up on the other side.

Hopefully that day will never come, but it doesnt hurt to be prepared.

[SWDoc]

Quoheleth,

Personally, I do not believe just a CCW class can truly be considered CCW training. If you are concerned enough to be thinking these things through so carefully (as you seem to be), please get some defensive handgun training from a well known instructor. I understand budgets, so perhaps you can consider a 2 year plan for training. In the Houston area, consider Brian Hoffner, or there are opportunities for training down by Victoria with John Farnam (usually in the fall or spring). With Hoffner, you can also get training a couple of hours at a time, or go in with a few friends and "share" a shorter session. This type of training will address some of your accuracy concerns, methods of carry, tactics, presentation, and so on.

You sound like a sheepdog, pastor. (That's a good thing :-)) Hope you can get the training you need to proficiently address a situaltion we all hope will never materialize. Big crowds like a crowded church present a very difficult scenario.

Have you considered some open hand training, and looked into more intensive attention to verbal defense? Likely you already have a very firm foundation here due to your ministry. Check out Bill Kipp's "Missing Link" DVD, or some of the other self defense info on Michael Janich's media website staysafemedia.com . Lots of things you can do before worrying about keeping your congregation safe while responding w/ a handgun. Not always possible, but good tools to have in the box.

Some very good advice has been given in this thread. Thank you for posting.

Steve

[OldCowHand]

I do a bit of preaching myself, from time to time. The pulpit definitely gives you the best view of your flock and any potential attackers, but not necessarily the most unobstructed field of fire. I'm thinking along the lines of working with a few of the CCWers in the congregation to ensure that the right folks sit in the right spots to be able to do the most good.

I'm also thinking about an innocuous-sounding Hebrew or Greek word that could be introduced into a sermon as a heads-up that something is amiss. Of course, that'd depend on my not having put the CCWers to sleep by that point in the message! ;)

[lloydkristmas]

Im a member at one of those "megachurches" in the Central Texas area, and I have heard from people in the know that our church has about 6-8 armed "ushers" spaced throughout the auditorium at any time. Many are off duty cops, military, or simply CHL holders that the pastor trusts. I always look for bulges under their coats now :)

[ArchAngelCD]

Quoheleth,
No reason to explain yourself any further than you did in your first post. You made it clear you are only worried about your congregation and family. With the way things are in today's world those fears are justified and to ignore them would be foolish. I'm not sure what your beliefs are but I will say the Lord wasn't an advocate of being a victim.

There are several good "tuckable" IWB holsters available on the market that are affordable. Those holsters allow you to carry IWB but still tuck in your shirt. They do a very good job of concealing a handgun, even an M&P 9. I'm a big fan of DeSantis holsters because they make a quality product for a fair price. Take a look at their Tuck-This (http://www.desantisholster.com/n91.html) holster. It lists for $37 but I've seen them for $29.95 locally. Don Hume (http://www.donhume.com/index.cfm) makes good holsters for a fair price too. If you don't like anything from DeSantis you might find something you like from Don Hume.

There are much nicer products on the market but they also come at a premium. From what you said you are looking for something that works but doesn't cost too much.

[1911 guy]

I have to apologize, I wandered a bit from the initial questions posed in the original post. My advice would be the following:

Carry the largest handgun you can comfortably and practically conceal. Everyones' situation is different, so I won't throw recommendations at you. Just hash out for yourself what the accaptable compromise is.

Now that you've gotten the initial training required by your state law, look for someone to train you in the specific skills you'll need for your situation. These would include developing a plan for managing the crowd in a state of confusion and panic, skills needed to determine shoot/no shoot situations and pushing your gunhandling skills and accuracy on a range and classroom setting so you know where the threshold of your personal abilities is. As an example, I'm extremely confident offhand at 25 yards, but cut that in half when the target is made of flesh and bone and moving.

You made mention that there are others who are spearheading the security plan and you are there for your family. Actually, this is a wise move. As Springmom said, you're in perhaps the worst place to engage a threat likely to enter the sanctuary at the point farthest from you. The members who are part of the armed group should be seated near the back on the outside of the pews, provided they're not too close to the wall to maneuver. A designated usher/greeter who may also be armed could easily be in place in the foyer/lobby during the service to tip the main body off if something comes up.

Aw, heck, I will toss in a recommendation. If you're looking at carrying IWB anyway, try the 1911 if you don't expect to have to tuck it under your shirt. They're thinner than a lot of other autos and a reload is also thin.

[TonyB]

I have recosdered my ccw choice for sundays....I usually carry a642 in my pocket.But recent shootings in churches have made me step up to something bigger and w/ more rounds.I carry my S/W m and p compact now.Our sanctuary is pretty big,and I play in the band most sundays,so I am on the far end from the doors in the beginning of the service.I'm not cop or hero,but will stop someone who is trying to kill my "family".I haven't been going to the church for long,and the Pastor doesn't actually know that I carry,but plan on a discussion about it soon.for now,no news is good news.

[MMCSRET]

I am friends with a Catholic priest who served as an officer in the Columbian army prior to Seminary, as a combat arms officer. He carries a Smith 36 or a Walther PPKS. I have watched him shoot and I would not want to be a BG in his line of sight. Keeps a pump 12 Ga. with tactical upgrades in the rectory.

[IMTHDUKE]

I am pastor of a small country church that is right on a main highway. After church shootings, I had some of our men bring up their concern for security. It's not going to get better in terms of security at any place, and some are prime targets. If I was a nut case, I would prefer to take on a place I expected to be defenseless.

I have not carried at church, but I have no problem with those who do.

[JR1]

Another pastor here. Unfortunately it is illegal in AR to carry inside of a house of worship of any kind. That being said, we are in serious talks right now amongst one of our boards about security. We are making changes in how we watch who comes and goes and about the overall security of our facility.

There are also some legal ways around the prohibition to CCW in church buildings which we are exploring as well.

Whatever the outcome of those legalities, I cannot imagine trying to fire and hit a BG from the pulpit to the backdoor. I just can't fathom shooting directly over the heads of 250 people who may pop up at anytime and become unintended targets.

For whatever it is worth, I do CC at every legally available opp.

[Don357]

I am a church musician, Sunday school teacher, and Evangelist and I carrry as do several others in our church. Normally I carry a Kel-Tec P-11 in my front pocket, or with a K-T belt clip depending on the type of shirt or if I'm wearing a jacket. Personally I feel that, relying on my military training and the fact that I hunt with a handgun, I could make a shot half the length of our sanctuary(about 25yds) easily enough.
As for the morality of a minister carrying a weappon, without getting into a scriptual debate, Jesus even told His deciples to buy swords to defend themselves. And churches have long been seen a easy targets for criminals and I see the safety of member's lives as well as their souls part of my responsibility as a minister.

[Calen]

I'm also a church musician and do carry. My weapon of choice is an XD 45 and I generally carry two extra mags. I've never had a problem with concealment, but I wear a sports jacket anytime I'm carrying. My main concern with choosing a carry weapon was which one I felt most comfortable with and could be most accurate with. I figured once I had the weapon chosen I could change my style for concealment.I know that not everyone has that option.

As a side note, we also have several LE (including instructor at POST) and a few others that are part of the official security team and are usually stationed around the entrance. I'm mainly a backup while playing, but anytime I'm not onstage I switch to security mode. I am really glad to see so many ministers/church-goers discussing this issue. As was said before, the world is changing and we have to change with it. When I was growing up even the worst BGs left churches alone. Now it's fairly common to see them burglarized or worse.

[ArchAngelCD]

JR1,
A law prohibiting church members from protecting themselves is a terribly dangerous law. Every nut in the State knows they can shoot up a church without resistance just as they do in schools because they know there will be no one with a gun to stop them. Forcing worshipers to become lambs for the saluter is just wrong. I would hope that law would be changed and changed soon.

That's just plain dangerous...

[JR1]

Archangel--It has been that way here for a long, long time. During that time there have been instances of churches shootings in the state and still nothing has changed.

As pastor I operate on a don't ask, don't tell policy when it comes to carrying. There are a number of people in the congregation who are CCW and there are many I shoot with including two former policemen. What they all choose to do regarding the law is up to them. I won't advocate breaking the law, but I may choose to just not know in a case like this.

[seeker_two]

You may want to consider keeping the pocket gun on your person and carrying a full-sized pistol off-body. There are datebook-type holsters that could also double as a Bible cover and some Bible covers at the Christian bookstores that could carry a Bible and a decent-sized handgun.

Just a thought, Padre.... :cool:

[Quoheleth]

You may want to consider keeping the pocket gun on your person and carrying a full-sized pistol off-body. There are datebook-type holsters that could also double as a Bible cover and some Bible covers at the Christian bookstores that could carry a Bible and a decent-sized handgun.

Just a thought, Padre....

Appreciate the idea, and honestly I did think about that (a la Pale Rider) ...also have had a thought of keeping a beater pistol in a carved-out book on a bookshelf behind my desk for during-the-week.

But it keeps coming around to one thing: all it takes is a single moment (heartbeats, really) when that book/Bible is set down and some kid or nosey adult comes by (Oh, here's pastor's other Bible...let me see if I can find that verse he was talking about) and :eek::eek::eek: At best, my "concealed" is unconcealed; at worst...I do not even want to write the word. Let's just say "prison ministry" becomes very personal. Carry off-person, knowing I would be in a crowd, just seems to have bad, bad potential.

And, someone suggested stashing on in the pulpit. We only have a single pulpit - not a separate pulpit and lectern - and we use lay-readers during the service. I wouldn't want to leave a loaded weapon inside the pulpit for that very reason.

Might still do the cut-out book behind my desk - something innocuous that NO ONE will grab (a dictionary, hymnal, etc., someone might grab as a quick reference; this will have to be something like "The History of the Norman Conquest in Northern Britain: 1066" or Nanci Polosi's new book - you know, something that only the author's mother has purchased) and keep it on my desk for during the week. But, sure as shooting (so to speak), the one time I do that will be the time I go answer the door (I'm the only one at church most days of the week) without The Book will be a very bad day...

No, if I'm going to do this on SUndays, I think the best bet will be carry on-person, even if I give up speed for concealment (i.e. tuckable IWB or ankle vs. pocket carry).

Q

[seeker_two]

Good concerns.....you can get one that locks, too...

[Stevie-Ray]

As I said before, Pastor, I applaud your choice to CC. If you have church officers, I would first approach the board of trustees. Find out if any among them are concealed carriers. If they are not, they might know somebody in the congregation who is. At any rate see if you can convince them to position themselves during services to be of help if the unthinkable happens. After all, what happens will no doubt happen in the nave where they are seated. Best of all would be several carriers spread out around the nave, because they know each other and want to give the congregation as much security as possible. I know, that if my Pastor approached me about a similar question, I would be happy to oblige. This idea might sound extreme, but as I said before, most Pastors I know take an entirely different view on guns; it's a pleasure to hear from one that takes security seriously.

[armedandsafe]

You sound like a sheepdog, pastor.

Why do you think the congregation is called "the flock?" :)

I seem to gather ministers to me. I remember having Reverand T. borrow my toy pirate's sword from me to wear as a prop one time. His sermon was from Luke, of course.

We used to tease the local priest about his "Marilyn Monroe" attire when he would shoot with us (split up the side of the "skirt.")

I hosted the batchelor's party for one of our local Reverand's future son-in-law. The range pictures were posted on the parish bulletin board.

I helped a parish priest mount an M1 Carbine under the pulpit with break-away clips.

I advised and trained a Jesuit Priest when he graduated from a 30-30 lever gun to a bolt 300 Weatherby to carry in his bush plane.

Keep up the training and thinking, sir. you are on the right track, in my opinion.

Pops

[longtooth]

35ys pastoring a Baptist Church. I am in Diboll about 125 miles North of you on 59.
I know I am in a verry gun friendly area. Also Range Safety Officer at local range. I have trained SEVERAL in our church w/ handguns. 60 average on Sunday Morning & 50 Sunday night. We will have 6-8 CHLs at any service.
I carry a Ruger SP101 OWB on Sunday. Top Pic.
Wear a vest all the time. Virtually all of our little chruch knows the preacher is armed & that there are several more that choose where they sit so all doors are covered. No security guards at our church.
Week days I carry a Kimber Pro CDP under a vest. I hate coats.

Sunday Carry on top. SP101 in a BoomStick holster. Sunday is a different belt.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e274/longtooth50/000_0205.jpg

Sometimes shoulder carry. Anytime in a bumpy possibility place. Alessi Body Guard & the Kimber.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e274/longtooth50/000_0007-1-1.jpg

One of my vests & a Sunday shirt. Add a tie & slacks & this my Sunday dress.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e274/longtooth50/000_0154.jpg


Week day carry in a Tucker HF1.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e274/longtooth50/000_0088.jpg

[ArchAngelCD]

longtooth,
Way to go!!

I find nothing wrong with you protecting yourself and congregation from those who would do evil. BTW, you have some very nice handguns and holsters there. :cool:

[TonyB]

longtooth:I bet your people don't have a problem tithing:uhoh:

[BigRugerLover]

I'm really glad to see this post and will be rethinking a few things--THANKS.

To try to answer your question, the Ruger LCP in a pocket holster is the most concealable thing that I have found that I can also get to quickly.

Here's where I'm at right now with my CCW and ordination vows. Theologically, it is entirely impossible for me to shoot someone at church in front of my flock. I would rather take a bullet and am ready to pull up my alb and charge the shooter. We have two ushers at the main entrance behind everyone and one of them is always a big buy. I know that one of the members carries and she is at the best-attended service. Also, I don't carry when wearing clericals. So, on Sunday mornings and when I'm in uniform, the G19 with 22 rounds (12 & 10) is in the glove compartment. Also, everybody has cell phones, the service is monitored in the baby room, a police substation is two blocks away, and the main police station is a quarter mile.

When responding to security alarms at night, I will carry in the church. And the rectory, well, it could also be called "arsenal."

This comes after considering that one of the recent church shootings was nearby in SW Missouri.

That said, I carry the the G19 IWB and use the ruger LCP for backup or summer wear.

BRL

[OldCowHand]

Theologically, it is entirely impossible for me to shoot someone at church in front of my flock.
Could you expand on that a bit? During his stint as a shepherd, David tangled with the occasional lion and bear, emerged victorious, and thereby protected his flock. I'm trying to imagine how those principles wouldn't carry across to the protection of the congregation under a pastor's care (by the way, the English word "pastor" derives from the old French for "shepherd").
I would rather take a bullet and am ready to pull up my alb and charge the shooter.
Committing suicide by flinging yourself at the shooter won't do much to protect the flock, methinks. It'll get you killed, but the shooter is still free to shoot others under that scenario. The point of the exercise, with apologies to General Patton, isn't to die for your flock so much as to keep the shooter from killing them. You have two options: (1) pray and (2) shoot faster and straighter than the BG. I'm going to assume that (1) is part of the plan, regardless, but (2) may be one of those situations where Psalm 144:1 applies: "Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle." David, the author of that psalm, was aware of many situations in which God handled the battle all by Himself, but knew that sometimes He chose to use people to carry out His plan. So David trusts in God, but recognizes that, in any given situation, he may have to play a role. God will still supervene, but David may be involved. God will equip David, and David will be ready to take whatever part is assigned to him.

[SWDoc]

Great rabbit trail, and I am interested. But maybe this topic (scriptural basis for lethal force in self defense) deserves its own thread?

Steve

[Mr. D]

How is killing someone in church, and thereby protecting the congregation, any different than killing someone in self defense or defense of family at any other time or place? Now, if you had an issue with the use of deadly force as defense, that would be a different issue all together. However, if you believe in using deadly force to defend one's life/family/other innocents, how does the fact that it may happen in a church make things different?

~Dale

[Ala Dan]

Many thanks too all our fine Clergy men and women, currently doing the
work of our Heavenly Father. I know this is a difficult task at times, being
awakened at 0 dark thirty to sit with a family whose loved one has just
passed; or provide counsel for a unruly marriage that has quickly gone to
the dogs. But, I think you people are most deserving (it being GOD's will)
to protect yourself while performing his duties here on earth. You clery
men and women face the same dangers that oridanary citizens do; but
much more on a countless basis, due to the nature of your work. I think
GOD, or his son JESUS CHRIST would have no objection to you folk's (who
are on call 24/7) going armed too protect yourselves. I certainly have NO
objection, and would feel real guilty if someone harmed a hair on your head~!

[Technosavant]

But, I think you people are most deserving (it being GOD's will) to protect yourself while performing his duties here on earth.

Thanks Dan.

I still believe that of all the professions out there, the two that have the least excuse to think that self defense isn't necessary are the police and the clergy. The police because they deal with evil in actual practice every day, the clergy because we deal with evil in theory; neither should be surprised at all at the bad stuff that can happen.

I know around here there was an incident of a preacher in a rural church getting robbed at gunpoint in his office. It isn't just security on Sunday mornings that concerns me- too many folks see churches as having plenty of cash on hand (usually not the case) and being quite soft targets. I know it annoys a couple of my members, but there's a reason I leave the church doors locked during the week (folks stopping by to seek salvation are are more rare than they might think and they usually reek of alcohol when you do see them).

[Quoheleth]

Dan-

I certainly have NO
objection, and would feel real guilty if someone harmed a hair on your head~!

So, to prevent that sense of guilt, you're going to hook me up with a really smokin' deal on a Bersa concealed carry .380 ? :p :rolleyes: :neener: (Just kidding...really!:D)

Seriously, I again thank all who've posted here with thoughts & opinions. The funny thing is that it started with a question of clergymen of what to carry and how to carry it. For those who answered those questions, specifically, I am especially grateful.

The conversation has gone far & wide. I find it interesting that no one objects to doctors carrying to save their lives or family lives knowing that in their utilizing a weapon, they might take the life of a BG. Yet for some, idea of a pastor using a Peacemaker (or other weapon of choice) causes heartburn. I realize the doctor-pastor anology is imperfect; yet there is a point of comparison there as well.

Without becoming overly theological - I respect the rules of THR regarding theological discussion - I see myself, as a pastor, to be a shepherd. I follow the Good Shepherd in my calling to be an undershepherd - a pastor - and that means defending the flock not only from spiritual harm (a very REAL evil, I would argue Technosavant, not theoretical) but from physical harm if I can. That involves helping get contingency plans in place, get people thinking about security and reaction (to all sorts of situations), and in the case of really, really bad stuff happening, what about afterward. I pray I never have to use ANY type of weapon, be it a gun, knife, or thrown hymnal, in church or anywhere else. But if something does happen, I also pray I am able to defend those whom I love.

FWIW, I'm planning to get in on the CCW class in October. We'll see where things go from there.

For now, I will depart in peace...

Q

[Caddo]

Quoheleth, as you will learn in your concealed carry class, according to Texas Concealed Carry Law PC46.035 (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority
of Subchapter H. Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of
whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's
person:

(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established
place of religious worship.


LD

[wdlsguy]

Caddo, please see § 46.035(i) (http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.010.00.000046.00.htm#46.035.00) which effectively nullifies that prohibition.

[Technosavant]

that means defending the flock not only from spiritual harm (a very REAL evil, I would argue Technosavant, not theoretical)

We agree there.

My meaning of my statement was to point out that the clergy has no excuse to be shocked by the ferocity or inhumanity of what one person can do to another. Some think that because we talk of redemption and forgiveness that preachers are somehow hidden from the dangers and evil the world holds (I sometimes hear some people say "sorry to bring this to you, preacher...", but in fact, I know there's nothing that is beneath humans when they are given to evil). Far from it, we should expect such things to happen, since we know that evil is a very real thing.

No, spiritual dangers are not theoretical, but I wasn't referring to those. I was talking about the worst of the criminals out there and the things that they bring forth from their worst nightmares to visit upon others. Those we should expect.

[Caddo]

wdlsguy, Thank you, Sir. I stand corrected.

I guess if he's the Pastor, there wouldn't be a 30.06 notification.

Quoheleth - Disregard, Good luck with your decision.

LD

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

Would keeping a dot-scoped Ruger Mini-30 behind the pulpit, within arms reach, be considered illegal? With some practice, a 25 yard headshot is quite manageable with this rig. BTW, I'd load it with U.S.-made hunting ammo, not commie surplus or commercial range ammo.

[Technosavant]

The problem is stashing things in the pulpit is the security of it. If it is locked into anything, then it takes too long to access. If it isn't locked up, it's too accessible to anybody else between services.

I'd rather have the guys in the sound booth have a shotgun or AR, but the thought of a select fire AR with integrally suppressed barrel and an Aimpoint hiding in the pulpit does fill me with warm fuzzies.

[Quoheleth]

^ Ditto.

Locked up, and it might as well be in my office.
Unlocked and it's spooky dangerous. All it would take is a moment away from the pulpit and - yeesh.....

Q

[Dr_2_B]

I was a worship pastor. I generally carried a Glock of some sort and I carried it on my hip IWB.

[Preacherboy]

This thread caused me to join...I am also a pastor and a few people know that I have a CPL, and I have permission in Michigan to carry in church, but I do not carry Sundays. During the week I carry a Beretta 21a, but since I can't carry into hospitals so I end up leaving it at home most days anyway.

Great discussion.

[Sistema1927]

Preacherboy,

Welcome aboard. I understand hospitals, but why would you choose not to carry on Sundays at church?

At the same time, having a good car lock box would allow you to carry except when you need to enter a "victim disarmament zone".

[Quoheleth]

At the same time, having a good car lock box would allow you to carry except when you need to enter a "victim disarmament zone".

Grrrrrr......something ELSE I'm gonna have to buy.

-CCW class
-License
-Holster(s)
-Car lock box (seriously...good idea - thanks!)
-Etc...

Q

[Technosavant]

Q, don't forget the good gunbelt too. :D:neener:

[CalebJns]

after reading the 58 replies, all of which are great...I have to chime in as well. I like a few others are "tent makers" Pastor (Full Time / Part Time) work on the side...lol...Pastoring is a 24/7 job, don't care who you are...back on topic...CC at church???? WHY NOT? I Pastor a small rural church, I do not CC on Sunday mornings, just because I have not found the "right" one...I do however have a few LADIES that CC...As far as the pulpit goes, I don't have one...my members all sit in the back, and complain that they can't "hear" me, so I have moved to the stand type pulpit, and position myself in the "middle" of the sanctuary (30x60 building). So for me I have drastically dropped the distance from me to the entrances...one being on my immediate right (with a wheelchair accessible aisle) the other directly in front of me (back door)...within less than 15-20 feet...

I have had people ask me the same question that has been brought up on the first page...How do I justify CC'ing? Easily...I am an American Citizen, I have certain rights and privileges that as an American I must uphold! the fact that I am a Pastor is no different than if I were male (thus pastor) or female, tall or short, fat or skinny, red or yellow, black or white...sorry almost broke out into song...the fact that one is a Pastor is of little consequence. Yes Pastors are sometimes held to a higher degree, but should we be any different than any other individual...(moderators please disregard the following...) as a believer (and for those that are not religious go along with me) we are all to be like Christ, so the whole "He is a Pastor..." doesn't fly with me...(moderators you may begin reading again)

I just purchased a Kel-Tex P11 with belt clip to try out...we are a huggggyyy church...part of life, but my congregation knows that I CC...they actually invite their friends to come hear the "Pistol totin' Preacher"...they are fine with it, and know full and well that if a situation were to arise, that I would do my best to first de-escalate the situation, but if not possible, deal with it as quickly and efficiently as possible. Great Thread By the Way...sorry to rant! good luck and if you need a CC holster for the money, mine has been fabulous

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=366719

Mine is #24 I do on occasion wear it to church, if I know I am going to keep my coat on.....

[Mr. D]

Caleb,

I'm not a pastor but I completely agree. If you justify it as a Christian, there is no reason NOT too do the same just because you are a pastor.

~Dale

[wdlsguy]

Grrrrrr......something ELSE I'm gonna have to buy.

-CCW class
-License
-Holster(s)
-Car lock box (seriously...good idea - thanks!)
-Etc...
I definitely encourage you to take the class and apply for the license, but you don't need a license to carry on your own premises or premises under your control (http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.010.00.000046.00.htm#46.02.00). Wouldn't the premises of a church be under the pastor's control?

[CalebJns]

not sure how that would be defined by Law? My thoughts would be a public place, I know you don't have to have a license to carry on your own property, but I would feel the Law would sway toward you having a license to CC at church...for starters (typically) the Pastor does not own the property or building...and for the argument of being under your control, could one not justify any location as this? I would definetly say, have a license and practice a lot! especially close quarters...be safe!

[george29]

Apologize if this has been said, church security starts OUTSIDE the church. All but one entrance locked during services. Unlocked entrance static security. Once a perp is inside, it is called Breached-security.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2779441828805258122&ei=R127SNzGLqO0qAP7rq26DA&q=The+Gun+and+the+Pulpit&hl=en
The Gun and the Pulpit (1974)

[birdshot8's]

you could hollow out the inside of your bible.

[CalebJns]

unless you have completely "hidden the Word of God in your heart" that could be an issue. not saying it wouldn't be possible, but difficult...would be funny to open up your Bible and tell the congregation to turn to (insert gun brand) 1:1...or scare someone almost to death, when leading them to Salvation through Christ...Great thread by the way...agree with a lot of the views...keep up the thoughts.

[lance22]

I was a preacher for 12 1/2 years, no longer a minister but even now I stand up front leading services for songs / prayer / Lord's Supper / teaching classes.

I wear a suit jacket / sport coat when at church. When you wear a suit jacket, you can wear anything you want underneath so no problems. I usually carry my Kahr P40 or a 4 inch 1911 at the 4:00 position.

How the congregation would react should not be a consideration. We are not striving to please men but to please God. The moral thing to do is not decided by a show of hands or a checking of the political winds. Any man of God worth his salt is trying to be a leader, not a follower. Those who swayed because they love the praise of men more than the praise of God do not belong in the pulpit.

[aggie]

Quoheleth:

My wife & I are in a new Anglican parish up in the Tomball area & both of us carry - except on Sundays! We're meeting in a school for now. :banghead: At our other meeting locations, she and I carry as usual.

I applaud your attitude and stance. Our parish is working on rethinking our security stance right now. We're facing the challenges of our current meeting locations and acquiring a permanent location.

Before we started meeting in the school, most of our CHL holders did not carry during Sunday service for the usual mutlitude of reasons. As a group, most of them are beginning to reconsider their positions for when we can do so legally. Even our ex-cops did not carry. I've asked them to recosider their reasons. Our parish recently declared an unpopular stand on certain issues.

If I can do anything for you, please do not hesitate to contact me via our commercial web site or my blog. I'd be happy to share what little I know about church security with you.

[jasonguerard]

I wouldn't advise shootng over the heads of the flock. While your higher vantage point would give a good angle, best to let the ushers/deacons/attendants handle sunday security.
Other times a Keltec P3AT in a pocket slipper should be perfect.
As to being a peace maker, read my sig line and www.gunowners.org/sk0801.html

[Mr. D]

Jasonguerard,

It also says, I believe later on in that same Ex passage, that if you see a crime about to be committed and don't do everything in your power to stop it, your are as guilty as the perpetrator.

~Dale

[JESmith]

Quoheleth:

I think everyone is forgetting what actually in church shootings:

1. As the pastor, YOU are target #1. A lot of times the first round fired is at the podium and the people on stage.

2. Do not assume the threat is going to come bursting in from the back or even outside. Most stages have a lot of hiding spots and rear exits. In my experience, when trouble comes at church, that's where it comes from.

A good case in point was the brother of a good friend of mine. He was the pastor of a very small church (25-50 people at service.) He was killed by a guy who had been attending regularly for over 10 years. He was described as a quiet guy who lived with his mother and would not hurt a fly. He showed up at church one day and killed the pastor, his wife, one of his children, and wounded another.

[KBintheSLC]

I carry a SuperSoaker full of holy water.

[CalebJns]

I carry a SuperSoaker full of holy water.

That is great!

[ArchAngelCD]

I carry a SuperSoaker full of holy water.
Well that's how much you know! That only works on Vampires and they don't come to Sunday morning services. Now if you are holding night services that might be an option for Vampires but what about the Werewolves? :rolleyes:

[1911 guy]

Quote:
Apologize if this has been said, church security starts OUTSIDE the church. All but one entrance locked during services. Unlocked entrance static security.

Absolutely. The security plan (framework suitable to customize, actually) I drew up is divided into three parts, the first and by far more extensive is preventing access by unwanted people without turning away folks who are there to worship. Controling access while services are in progress is another point I make.

I've had several people ask me in PM about the plan. It's available FREE to anyone, Pastor, Asst. Pastor, Deacon, Concerned Churchgoer. Doesn't matter to me what faith you are, either. Whether I agree with you or not, you have a right to worship in safety.

[give]

i have a question for the poster,cant you stash the 1911 up in the front with you?you are a paster correct?from the experience's of church i have you are standing in the front with a paulpt,sorry if spelled wrong,with your bible resting on the stand,couldent you hide your pistol up there with you?just a thought

[Quoheleth]

i have a question for the poster,cant you stash the 1911 up in the front with you?you are a paster correct?from the experience's of church i have you are standing in the front with a paulpt,sorry if spelled wrong,with your bible resting on the stand,couldent you hide your pistol up there with you?just a thought


Easy, thanks for the post. See #33, 52 & 53 above.

Q

[Blofeld]

Excellent posts. My workplace has drills on just about every conceivable catastrophe EXCEPT an armed nutjob. I view such a threat as more likely than most of what we drill on.

That said, I'd look at the architecture of the building, the layout, and possibly take a Sunday and discuss what to do in such an event with the congregation. This also provides the opportunity to explain your position and tie it in to your belief system for those that may be scratching their heads on it.

Bear in mind that the bad guy is probably planning on dying, and that he's coming with all the armament he can scrounge up. With the recent tradgedies we've seen, I personally want the most effective weapon to stop the threat immediately.

Best of luck.