When it comes to firearms, I'm a civilian w/civilian needs. Soon, I will be adding a shotgun -- probably an 870 -- to my limited collection of boomsticks. It will be my first scatter-gun. I'm very excited.
Sadly; however, I am confused. I see a fist full or two of posts from people who are disappointed by the Remington 870's inability to accept an extended magazine tube (due to those darn dimples), but in my experiences I have rarely seen a shotgun need more than 3 or four rounds. In a home defense situation I hardly expect to have the time to fire more than 4 rounds. Trap and skeet seems to require only 2 rounds, maybe 3. And for hunting -- is it not true that guns are often limited by law to no more than 2 rounds? So - I ask you this....... Should I stress over only having 4 rounds in the gun? Or in my civilian life, with my civilian needs, will there come a day that I will honestly need to jack 7 shells into my forthcoming purchase?
I sit back and eagerly await the wisdom of a dozen shotgunners.
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The No Spin Zone
September 3, 2003, 09:31 PM
"I'm not going to war -so why 7 rounds?"
Why stress? Buy a Mossberg. Mine holds eight! :D But the bigger question is - "You aren't going to war, so do you only load 3 rounds into your pistols/revolvers/rifles?"
September 3, 2003, 09:31 PM
Iv'e never understood either, but to each his own. I like a traditional piece of wood on my guns and have never felt I needed an extended mag, but I understand why people like their HD shotguns. Many shoot in matches that might require the exta shells, or maybe they just don't like the govt telling them whats best for them and everybody else when its a double standard for law enforcement.. The govt are just telling us they don't trust us with more than 4 in the mag:rolleyes: Oh well, you will undoubtedly get many opinions on this subject.
September 3, 2003, 09:43 PM
There just something about unloading 8+1 from my 590 very quickly that reduces stress almost immediately. :D
September 3, 2003, 09:49 PM
I think the dimples things is more about the slight to gun owners and less about need.
I am not a capacity junkie, I like my single stack semi autos and love my 8+1 9mms. I feel perfectly well armed with them. That being said having access to a 30 round magazine for the AK or AR is a warm fuzzy feeling as is owning my 870 with 7 round capacity.
Heck chances are I won't ever have to fire a round in anger but it's nice to know that if I have to I have lots of lead to throw.
Once again I think alot of the bad talk about dimples and such is kind of like the integral locks being put on guns. They are being foisted onto people because we are not adult enough to handle them without. They are just another way to take just a little bit away from gun owners and just another way to imply that the police and military are TOTALLY different from us untrained uneducated hicks.
The dimples are stupid. Internal locks are a great idea................if they were an optional feature to be bought or not depending on choice.
But those darn dimples, I mean WHY. Waste of money on Remingtons part as far as I am concerned.
September 3, 2003, 09:51 PM
There just something about unloading 8+1 from my 590 very quickly that reduces stress almost immediately.
.....course socio-political commentary aside. SHOTGUNS GOOD! 12 GAUGE GOOD!!!! MORE 12 GAUGE IN SHOTGUN GOODER!!!!!
September 3, 2003, 09:56 PM
I'm not going to war - so why 7 rounds? The short answer is because the world doesn't revolve around you.
If you want a regular shotgun, and it works for you, buy one, and enjoy it.
If someone else might like one with an extended mag, they should be able to buy one, and enjoy it as well.
For whatever reason though, a world that contains many choices makes some people uneasy. And I suppose that they find the effort of questioning/suppressing and/or in some way modifying, the choices they are uncomfortable with, reassuring in some way that I am unable to fathom. :confused:
September 3, 2003, 10:17 PM
They're also a lot of FUN; when I shoot skeet with my buddies, one of our favourites at the low house position is to load up as many rounds as we can, then call for "report doubles" :D I've managed to run 8 in a row like that, and you can't tell me it's not fun.
September 3, 2003, 10:42 PM
Check out this thread posted by Preacherman about ammo capacity in a shotgun.
When ammo capacity makes a difference... (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=35980)
You may not be going to war, but sometimes the war comes to you.
September 3, 2003, 11:03 PM
Prepare for the unexpected----then that way---maybe---just maybe---you won't get caught with your pants down----and your gun empty. Get the point?
September 3, 2003, 11:36 PM
I hardly expect to have the time to fire more than 4 rounds.
Well, if you are sure enough of your ability to predict how many rounds you will need in a home invasion, I guess you can dispense with the extra insurance of limiting your ability to defend yourself.
I'm not that good at predicting the future, myself, so I try to prepare for the worst case scenario. That means as many rounds as I can reasonably carry.
September 3, 2003, 11:55 PM
My answer to the question would be another question: why limit the tube to seven shells? Why such an arbitrary number? Why not six, or eight? Did some legislator get lucky at the casino and decide that seven was the Magic Number?
When laws are written based upon emotion, logic flies out the window. And logic would dictate that any limit on the capacity that is greater than zero is arbitrary.
September 4, 2003, 12:24 AM
why limit the tube to seven shells? Why such an arbitrary number? Why not six, or eight? Mine holds 8 in the tube. Oh, wait, it's just a Mossberg... ;)
September 4, 2003, 12:25 AM
To answer the question, whether your pump gun holds 4, 7, 8, or 10 rounds is totally a personal decision. That decision is based on your "best guess" about what your treat level is.
If you live in a tough neighborhood where there's a chance you might be involved in an extended shoot out with a gang, you would outfit your gun with a larger mag tube.
If your potential problem is a random burglar who doesn't know you're home, 4 shots would probably be 3 more than you need. In fact, in those cases, just the sound of the slide would be enough.
I have a mobility problem, so if I get into something, I probably wouldn't be able to duck, dodge, retreat, or take cover. Police help is distant.
In my case I'd probably have to stand and shoot it out, so I use a 7 shot gun.
I expect to be moving in a year or two to a more urban location, and once there, I'll probably convert back to the 4 shot standard tube just for the lighter weight.
You have to take everything into consideration and make your choice based on what you think you will need.
Using a gun blocked to a single shot when you can have 4, is as stupid as preparing to defend your urban apartment next door to the police station, from an infantry platoon. Neither is realistic.
Again, the dimples in the Express weren't a "PC" innovation. The plastic and dimpled magazine assembly was about NOTHING but price.
Something had to be changed to lower the price of the forged and milled steel 870, so it could compete with the cast aluminum Winchester and Mossberg.
The bottom line is, plastic and a fabricated cap is cheaper than steel and a milled cap.
September 4, 2003, 12:36 AM
This is why and how we are losing our firearms rights--
The hunters don't care about the shooters-- Shotgunners don't care about pistoleros -- ETC ETC ETC
"You don't need that to hunt ducks" mentality may well cost all of us our rights--
September 4, 2003, 12:58 AM
Assuming this is a "home defense"-type shotgun, why not? More opportunities is better. My Benelli holds 9 total.
September 4, 2003, 01:07 AM
Sorry in advance for the hi-jack but....
I hope that every single one of you who are complaining about the PC dimples have written or called Remington to let them know how you feel. It does make a difference and THEY DO NOT READ THESE THREADS.
You will now be returned to your regularly scheduled program.
September 4, 2003, 01:52 AM
Dimples? thats new to me but the only new express I have messed is a synthetic model with came with the extended mag tube from the factory. $269.99.Same place sells the express wood model on sale for $199.99.
September 4, 2003, 01:54 AM
We can neither script nor schedule our next encounter.
We just do our best to prepare mind and equipment.
September 4, 2003, 07:21 AM
A Lupara, the venerable Sicilian double barreled defensive and payback tool, holds two shots and is quite probably enough to handle any problem a civilian may run into AS A CIVILIAN.
But,we're all in the militia too. And, Life is full of uncertainty, ask the ghosts of Pompeii, Wounded Knee or Birkenau.
A standard 4+1 capacity pump is a wondrous close range tool for Crisis Resolution. Adding a couple rounds to that is an application of the More Is Better Principle. And in this case, the rule definitely applies.
Our chaplain mentions a couple of examples where higher capacity made the difference.
When I pick up my HD 870, there's 5 in the magazine and 5 in the Side Saddle. 10 shots can handle most A-S problems. For those that it's not enough to handle, there's backup ammo, backup weapons, and E&E plans.
September 4, 2003, 10:14 AM
there's 5 in the magazine and 5 in the Side Saddle I forgot to mention I also have 5 in the butt-cuff and 6 in the side saddle. Hey, you never know when S will HTF. :)
September 4, 2003, 12:26 PM
You can buy aftermarket add-on tubes for the 870, just not in the express model (without removing the dimples)
To each their own. I have 5 shot 870, that I added an 8 shot tube. My reasons:
1. Got a good deal on the 870 and on the tube.
2. I like the extra weight when shooting, it helps bring the gun back on line.
3. I can remove the extender, change barrels, add my plug and hunt doves with the same gun I use to protect my family.
4. My 'good ole' boys' think its cool.
5. I like taking this gun for hikes. I have 8 round in the gun, plus an extra four in the stock.
6. Same amount of ammo gives me warm fuzzies when I sleep at night.
That being said. I would feel as equally armed with an Ithaca 87/37 with a 5 round tube.
September 4, 2003, 12:30 PM
why do the police an military get all the cool stuff?
there supposed to be better trained so whats it matter? they need more rounds? sounds like they need more training
September 4, 2003, 01:14 PM
Sadly; however, I am confused.
Not exactly sure why you are confused. If you don't think you need 7 rounds, don't get an extended mag.
As others have stated, better to have and not need then to need and not have.
September 4, 2003, 01:56 PM
I took a rounded file and filed the dimples off. I flattened them without creating a hole in the tube. Now I have a 10-shot tube on my 870. Plus, I can take it off and go hunting with it.
More rounds because you never know what might be in store for you. As to going to war, I have no intention of attacking anyone but who knows what a crimminal might be planning. We have had two home invasions in as many weeks here in Fort Worth. That's why alot of people have guns, in the first place, for the unexpected. If you think more ammunition capacity could help deal with an unexpected threat, then do it.
September 4, 2003, 02:03 PM
5+1 = good, 7+1 = gooder....not really for capacity, but reloading the thing just takes so darn long....
September 4, 2003, 02:23 PM
Wow - some interesting responses. The motive behind my question is as follows. I - as all of you -- value a firearm with enough heat in the pipe to get a job done. But most of my shotgunning will be limited to trap/skeet, and phone-books. Given that, I was really just curious if it is worth the extra time and bucks to seek out an 870 w/an extended tube. Are there shotgun games that require more than 4 rounds that I might find myself sucked into as my experience increases?
September 4, 2003, 02:32 PM
IME the capacity only gives you an advantage on stages with low round counts, after that it really comes down to how fast you can load...
Al in Md
September 4, 2003, 05:45 PM
Some of us like to keep our HD shooties loaded and ready in the following manner. Chamber empty, cocked, mag. tube downloaded by one round (to reduce tension on mag spring plus compression on shot shells). With this method an extension helps with an adequate ammo supply. As stated by others in this thread, trouble can appear in various forms. If on the off chance you have to throw a few rounds for cover fire or to prevent movement by attackers, the more ammo you have the better armed you are. Al
September 4, 2003, 06:35 PM
Let's settle this really quickly: you dont NEED it. period.
The only things a human being can claim to need are nutrients and air. That's it.
As for all our WANTS, which we claim we 'need', we can answer as follows every time:
The lack of need is NOT a valid reason to restrict ownership of anything in a free market economy. Period.
Dont get it? OK, a free market allows a person to pursue both his economic needs (nutrients and air) and wants without restriction.
So anytime someone asks why you need something other than food,water, and breatheable gas; you dont have to answer the question. To answer it assumes a validity that the question does not have in this country.
September 4, 2003, 06:41 PM
Amadeus, none of the "flying clay bird" games will require a huge magazine (excepting Team Challenge events) but yes, in 3-gun competitions, it may come in very handy.
September 4, 2003, 06:52 PM
Thank you. The answer I was seeking.
September 4, 2003, 08:19 PM
September 4, 2003, 08:40 PM
I have an extended magazine. I only use it in competition (IDPA side matches) and I usually leave it set up like that.
When I burd hunt with it, I take off the extention, put my magazine plug back in, and put the 26 inch barrel on it.
When I take it asa back-up rifle, I leave the 22 inch deer barrel on it, but take off the mag extentsion. Truthfully, the extended mag weighs a BUNCH fully loaded and its a chore to lug around all day, and it's muzzle heavy.
It's a tool, but that tool has variable uses. If my shotgun was my primary HD weapon, I'd leave the extended mag on it at all times.
September 5, 2003, 09:21 PM
I did not read all the thread, so I am sure someone already mentioned that in today's world, you don't know if you are going to war or not. Things happen, usually very quickly, and if you don't have your stuff with you, then you lose. Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
Always your choice, but if you don't plan for bad things, then you may as well just go unarmed.
September 6, 2003, 12:14 AM
Any one get 10 or more rounds in their benelli? Is it possible? Does any one know of a place that can custom fabricate a benelli mag extention?
I'm planning on getting a benelli M4 but would like to have 10 rounds in it. A 2 round mag extention is all that Benelli offers for the M4.
September 6, 2003, 12:48 AM
Why is having more ammo good ?
You might as well ask, why is a tree good ?
Why is a sunset good ?
Why are boobs good ?
September 6, 2003, 05:04 AM
Waste of money on Remingtons part as far as I am concerned.
uuh, the new sysem of retaining the spring is cheaper than the old system.
sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
September 6, 2003, 09:52 AM
I you want to be a mall ninja military style wanna-be and impress the other neighborhood kids with how bad-a@@ you are, put on a mag that holds a coupla dozen rounds
If you're actually going to USE the gun (read hunting), carrying around a lot of extra ammo loaded in the gun is pretty much useless. Also very tiring.
In a hunting situation, the only time I can think of that I've ever needed more than 2 or mebbe 3 shots was deer hunting (going after wounded deer that pop up running). My friend got the buck with the 4th shot. That was in over 30 years of hunting.
See McCrackens thread above about hunting in the fall. He advocates a single shot, and for good reason. I started with a Sears 16 gauge single I got from grandpa. Still have it. Killed enough game to fill a pick-up...probably several times.
I've seen some farm boys with plain old double barrels that could do some real shootin'
If you're after game with shot, they'll be out of range before you can get off more than 2 shots anyway. And all that extra weight out front ruins the balance and swing.
I figure the reason these guys want so many shots is that they need 'em ;)
September 6, 2003, 05:18 PM
You may not be going to war but war may come to you:uhoh:
September 6, 2003, 07:56 PM
Well, after reading this thread (and Preacherman's), I'm beginning to think that my Stoeger 12ga. SxS Coach Gun is pretty inadequate for HD. :what: (Fortunately, I have a few other guns to back it up with... )
It's not a matter of "need". It's a matter of CHOICE. If someone chooses to have a 7+ round tube on their scattergun, then more power to them. If someone feels that 4 or less is enough, then more power to them, too.
But when someone (businesses, other shooters, government, etc.) want to prevent me from having the choice, then we've got a problem... :fire:
September 7, 2003, 05:34 AM
"I'm not going to war - so why 7 rounds?"
That mindset is typical for ********** and it is a prime example why the gun laws are the way they are there, as well as elsewhere. Too many people think that the government should dictate on how many shells your shotgun can hold or how many rounds your magazines can accept.
Here's a novel idea: If you only want to shoot four rounds out of your boomstick, then don't load the magazine to full capacity. The solution is so simple its stupid. Think for yourself and make your own choices.
September 7, 2003, 12:34 PM
Amadeus,When it comes to firearms, I'm a civilian w/civilian needs. Please define "civilian needs".
I now have two 870's that are/will be used only for Trap and occasionally Skeet. Their magazine plugs stay in and they're put away. One of these is an older 870TB (the subject of another thread) which I have yet to shoot. The other is a standard 870 field gun which I've modified with a custom stock specifically for Trap.
When you start using an 870 for Skeet, you will learn how fast and accurate you can be. Skeet doubles are work with an 870 but it can be done; I've done it and I'm not what I consider to be an expert with an 870. Trap is a good game for an 870, very doable.
But let's say you're home one night and four guys come busting through your door; you happen to have your 870 ready with 3 rounds (which at room distance hit as a solid mass with the wad). You empty the shotgun quickly and effectively because you've practiced, and you now have three bad guys down; the fight is down to just one bad guy across the room and you with an empty gun. His cheap pistol is coming up, what are you going to do ... do you feel lucky?
"Civilian Needs" in this day and age of home invasions has changed a lot from the past. In addition to the two game guns, I have another 870 configured for HD -- 5+1 rounds of #4 Buck. There's a large caliber pistol backing it up.
Do I expect to be invaded by a half dozen bad guys? Nope, not likely, but why limit my ability to defend myself if the need arises. At least remove the magazine plug and give yourself 4+1. Those extra two rounds could save your ???. There's no need to limit mag capacity. You single load for Trap so the 870's mag capacity is never an issue.
September 7, 2003, 06:05 PM
As was said, 3-gun can use the higher capacity. I just shot a match which had a 21-round shotgun stage, more if the steel did not fall. I have an 8+1 Mossberg 590 and I reloaded alot and was at a disadvantage to the semi-auto shooters. Some of them have 30" barrels and magazines which go to the end of the barrel. Still, very much fun.
September 8, 2003, 03:14 AM
I don't expect that i'm going to need that many rounds, either. But my Mossberg 500 still stays loaded with 7 rounds.
I don't think i'm going to need it, but if i do, i'd definitely like to have it available.
September 8, 2003, 10:11 AM
I was staying out of it a I don't think the question is a legitimate one with the exception of what do I need to best participate in "X" sport/shooting game. Capacity should be an individual decision and no one here, in government, or in business should be able to dictate that to you.
I choose my three shotguns for various reasons. All 3 (Ithaca 37, Stevens 620, and Winchester 97) all have small capacity tubes. I wouldn't even wonder if someone showed up with a 590 or other higher capacity shotgun. More then likely, the first thing I would wonder is if they want to swap for a few rounds just to see how their's handles.
The reason I jumped in was to ask Triggertime, "***?" How did ********** jump into this? I realise the state is a rats nest, but last time I checked it took more then the Left Coast to create a NATIONAL gun law...
September 8, 2003, 01:11 PM
That mindset is typical for **********
I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your bigoted comments to yourself.
September 9, 2003, 01:46 AM
triggertime: That mindset is typical for **********
Andrew wyatt: I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your bigoted comments to yourself.
The comment is not bigoted or even prejudiced, as the evidence of past election results and the current laws allowed to be enacted by Californians show.
The observation is correct.
Please remember that typical does not include everyone, but rather that it is a mindset exhibiting the essential characteristics of a group (Californians).
Sometimes we need to think before the knee is jerked.
As to the topic.
Sometimes it is better to have and not need, then need and not have.
September 9, 2003, 11:26 AM
As others have pointed out:
"I do not plan to go to war, but I never know when war will come to me."
Having seen some reports of multiple BG's disguised as Good Guys, and crashing doors, etc. I want to be as ready as possible.
For normal "Field & Woods" use, the mag plug goes in and the 28" Mod barrel goes on. For HD use, no mag plug and the 18-1/2" cylinder barrel
September 9, 2003, 02:39 PM
Because when a real threat presents itself and I'm all geeked up on adrenaline and rational thought has flown out the window and I dump my first three rounds in something other than the bad guy I have more rounds to try to take the BG out.
September 9, 2003, 07:28 PM
Why 7 rounds? Because I can't fit 10 in the magazine without getting an extention that extends past my 18.5 inch barrel.
September 9, 2003, 07:29 PM
Because 4 rounds is not that much ammo. First off you may miss. Second everyone worth shooting is worth shooting at least twice, hence the minimum standard responce taught to police of 2 rounds. So by the time your done missing and hitting you will probably be out of ammo. Besides it seems to be a waste of space to ahve a 18 inch barrel and a mag tube that only gets half way there. It is not hurting anything to have the extra rounds to have them. One of the shotguns greatest weakness is low ammo capacity. Why make that weakness even more acute.
September 9, 2003, 11:30 PM
Why stop at 7 rounds? (http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/SideWinder.htm)
September 9, 2003, 11:35 PM
"I sit back and eagerly await the wisdom of a dozen shotgunners."
Well, I am not much of a SG expert, so I will have to relate an old Air Force saying.
The two most useless things in the world are:
Runway behind you, and
Altitude above you.
You may not need it, but then again, you might.
September 11, 2003, 06:18 AM
Why? Because we can!
We are all shooters here. We all enjoy shooting. Some people want to do different things with their guns. When I'm out shooting clay with friends than its nice to stock the tube full and just have fun.
By the way, those dimples come out of the magazine tube very easily with a dremel tool.
September 12, 2003, 04:07 AM
For those who load less in their shotguns, do you also load less or want less rounds in your revolvers and semiauto rifles and semiauto pistols?
September 12, 2003, 03:01 PM
There is something to be said for only having what you need on a gun, and I can assure you that i'd say that even if i wasn't currently living in california.
I the rifle and pistol magazines on my "go to war" gear are all loaded down a couple rounds so i don't have to replace springs often. (they all have OEM springs, and with the quantity i have, it would cost a fortune to get new ones.)
September 12, 2003, 04:03 PM
One thing to consider is that it takes a heck of a long time to load rounds into a shotgun when compared to the load time for a semi-auto rifle or pistol.
For a pistol, it takes approximately 1.2 seconds to change mags (if you've practiced a bit).
For an AR-15, it takes a little bit more than that - maybe two seconds.
In those two weapons, you start off with between 9 (e.g. a 1911 with 8+1) and 31 rounds available, and reloading is fairly rare.
For a shotgun, to load a single shell takes about two seconds for someone of average ability. The best shotgun shooters in 3gun load faster than one shell per second. I think I currently at about 1.6 seconds per shell (load 3 at once). Fumbling a reload is much easier with shells vs. reloading a pistol magazine, and you have an opportunity to fumble each shell, not just per mag.
So it will take an average person 6-10 seconds to load four shotshells into a shotgun - assuming it hasn't been run dry - and they have the opportunity to fumble each of those four shells.
That is one important reason capacity is important in a shotgun.
In 3Gun, shotgun capacity is important because if you plan to load only as many as you need to shoot, and then shoot (and reload) to that plan, every round you can have in the gun at the start buzzer instead of loading later will knock a full 1-2 seconds off your time.
September 13, 2003, 05:13 AM
Well said, Zak Smith.
September 15, 2003, 12:12 AM
When I moved into the city is when my need for more capacity became important. I bought a Mossberg to avoid the 870's dimples and have a short barreled 5+1 plus 6 in the sidesaddle plus 5 in the buttsaddle setup.
I really can't predict how many guys will be in the break-in group from the Cabrini Green housing projects a block away... and, despite some good tactical SG training, I can't predict how accurate my shots will be. So, I want as much ammo as I can effectively handle mounted on my SG in easy to find places that I have trained repeatedly to load from.
I just hate the thought of successfully blowing away the first six bad guys and have the next five grab my wife and kill me... there is no rule that says bad guys come in sets of six or less.
More ammo is good, lots more ammo is better, and funck the liberal politicians who want to limit my mag size... funck 'em and the horse they rode in on.
Double Naught Spy
September 15, 2003, 01:04 AM
Just curious, just exactly how did you determine that you aren't going to be going to war? If you mean to say that you don't think you will be drafted and sent off to fight in a declared war, you may be right. On the outside, the US doesn't seem to declare war all that often, so that is in your favor.
So you are a civilian with civilian needs. Got it.
Do you know of any events where a person who has been in a gun fight and surived that griped about having too much ammo?
Do you think that the extended mag tube and extra rounds are going to somehow inconvenience you to such an extent to select the option not to have those features relevant to defending your life?
September 15, 2003, 05:14 AM
any one know of a good place to buy a benelli mag extension for a benelli m1014?
September 15, 2003, 07:51 PM
I found mine on Gunsamerica.com. I payed more than I would have at Calssportingarmory.com, but cal's was out of stock for an extended period(4-5months).
In other words try www.calssportingarmory.com or www.therightgun.com. Be forewarned, the right gun is more expensive, but they had them instock at last check.
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