Double O-Ring for Remington 1100


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kle
August 22, 2008, 04:34 PM
I just bought a used Remington 1100 12-ga shotgun to shoot trap with, and on its first outing it was running fine until my last 5 targets, when it started having cycling problems, possibly due to the O-ring degrading; when I traded guns with my buddy for the next round, my 1100 was jam-city for him (and I felt really bad, because I was using his ultra-reliable 870; he scored just 7/25, while I took 18/25).

I ordered some new O-rings (from here (http://mle-shootingsports.com/p109/TruGrip---O-Rings-for-Remington-1100/1187-Shotguns---20-Pack/product_info.html)), as well as a new Piston/Piston Seal (old one was probably OK, but looked a little beat up), and a new action spring (old one had set at 14", while new ones are supposed to be around 15" long).

My question is this: would using two rubber O-rings in a Remington 1100 work? Would there be any benefit to having two rings for redundancy? Would it hurt my gun to shoot it that way?

I suppose if it wasn't designed to work that way, then I shouldn't mess with it, but it seems like such a weak spot...

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MAX100
August 22, 2008, 05:09 PM
It should function like Remington intended with the single new O-ring.

Many don't know that their local hardware store sales O-rings in many different sizes and have the size that matches the factory 1100 O-ring. They run about 39 cent each. There is not need to order them off the net, buy 20 at a time and pay shipping cost.


GC

kle
August 22, 2008, 05:25 PM
So I would've saved a couple bucks had I gone local. Meh. Now I've got a bunch of extra O-rings to throw in my bag when I go out shotgunning on the weekends. Next time I need some new O-rings (and that won't be for a while) I'll remember to check the local hardware stores.

I'm certain that it'll work as-intended with one O-ring. What I'm wondering is if it'll work with two, or if it's even wise to do so.

Milkmaster
August 22, 2008, 05:26 PM
Try this THR thread for the sizes.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279238

chas08
August 22, 2008, 08:18 PM
Check the gas port/s in the barrel they can become clogged and cause a cycling problem similar to a failed o-ring. It probably wouldn't hurt anything to run two o-rings, if they would fit, because all they do is seal the back of the gas piston. But if every thing is right with the world, one is all you need. Be sure all gas rings are stacked properly and facing the right direction too.:)

kingjoey
August 22, 2008, 08:56 PM
If you put two rings in the gas system it will likely hold the bolt slightly out of battery since the action will be held back a little by the second O-ring. Don't do it, just replace the O-ring.

Virginian
August 22, 2008, 09:34 PM
"If you put two rings in the gas system it will likely hold the bolt slightly out of battery since the action will be held back a little by the second O-ring. Don't do it, just replace the O-ring."

Bingo ! Excellent advice. The newer 'O' rings are a bit better than the old ones. I think the last time I changed one was about 5 years ago. My first one, circa 1963, has a metal 'O' ring. That one is still going strong.

kle
August 22, 2008, 10:49 PM
Alright, I'll use just one, then; I replaced the O-ring, the piston, and the piston seal, so between all three parts, hopefully my cycling problem's fixed.

The 'new'-style piston/seal are weird and bass-ackwards compared to the old ones, though...

green country shooter
August 22, 2008, 10:58 PM
It took me a while to find just the right load for my 12 gauge 1100, though my much older 20 gauge runs like a top with anything. What my newer (about five years old) gun likes is Winchester Super Sport, 1 1/8 ounce, full power, which is about 1300 fps.

Pete409
August 22, 2008, 11:43 PM
KLE,

As others have said, one O-ring is enough and they are readily available at any hardware or plumbing supply store.

I'll bet money that the problem was NOT the O-ring. More than likely, the problem was a dirty, dry gun. If the gun was working well when you started shooting it that day, it is HIGHLY unlikely that the O-ring went bad in one day unless it was extremely dry and brittle and just fell apart.

Have you taken the bolt assembly and trigger assembly out of the receiver and cleaned them? If not, then you should. Also, replace the action spring. And finally, especially if the gun is not feeding the second round into the chamber, replace (or at least give a good cleaning to) the magazine spring. It's an important part in the functioning of an 1100.

BTW, once you've cleaned the gun well, lube it generously with Breakfree CLP on all moving parts. I've found that these guns run a lot better wet (with CLP) than dry.

kle
August 23, 2008, 01:28 AM
KLE,

As others have said, one O-ring is enough and they are readily available at any hardware or plumbing supply store.

I'll bet money that the problem was NOT the O-ring. More than likely, the problem was a dirty, dry gun. If the gun was working well when you started shooting it that day, it is HIGHLY unlikely that the O-ring went bad in one day unless it was extremely dry and brittle and just fell apart.

Have you taken the bolt assembly and trigger assembly out of the receiver and cleaned them? If not, then you should. Also, replace the action spring. And finally, especially if the gun is not feeding the second round into the chamber, replace (or at least give a good cleaning to) the magazine spring. It's an important part in the functioning of an 1100.

BTW, once you've cleaned the gun well, lube it generously with Breakfree CLP on all moving parts. I've found that these guns run a lot better wet (with CLP) than dry.

I have replaced the O-ring, the piston/seal, and the action spring.

Lacking a proper cleaning implement, I've also worked a straightened paperclip in the holes that bleed off gas to cycle the action and pushed out a bit of gunk. I've also taken it all apart, cleaned the trigger assembly, disassembled and cleaned the bolt assembly, cleaned out the receiver, and applied a good bit of Militec.

The cycling problems seemed to be FTEjects, with the spent shell not ejecting all the way; I think the mag spring is OK (it's supposed to kick a shell into the carrier-release hard enough to trip it and release the bolt, right?), since it was cycling just fine during my first 20-or-so targets.

We'll see how it runs tomorrow! Thanks for everyone's help--should be pretty obvious that it's my first shotgun and I'm new to shotgunning.

mnrivrat
August 23, 2008, 03:10 AM
Hardware store O-rings :scrutiny: They might fit and they might function for some time, but are they right ? Are they as long lasting and reliable as a factory O-ring ? There are a lot of different formula's for rubber guys and gals, and I for one will need more than a "works OK for me" recommendation before depending on a run of the mill hardware store part to replace the factory O-ring. Anybody have some technical data ?

One O-ring . That is what will fit and function properly, two will not.

The 'new'-style piston/seal are weird and bass-ackwards compared to the old ones, though...

Hummm ? Not sure what that means exactly, but are you sure assy was correct - or is correct now ? Might want to double check that.

Good luck - hope it runs well now.

Titan6
August 23, 2008, 03:11 AM
If it still does not work check your extractor and extractor spring, that seems to be the only thing left! I worn out or chipped/ broken extractor can cause this problem.

Brian Dale
August 23, 2008, 03:37 AM
There are a lot of different formula's for rubber guys and gals, and I for one will need more than a "works OK for me" recommendation before depending on a run of the mill hardware store part to replace the factory O-ring. Anybody have some technical data ?I've kept my eyes open for a couple of years looking for "Viton" O-rings in the correct size at hardware and home improvement stores. Somebody here convinced me a few years ago that the were the way to go, but I don't have any numbers at hand. Maybe the original author of that tip will chime in.

MAX100
August 23, 2008, 05:33 AM
mnrivrat:

There are a lot of different formula's for rubber guys and gals, and I for one will need more than a "works OK for me" recommendation before depending on a run of the mill hardware store part to replace the factory O-ring. Anybody have some technical data ?



I have not any problems out the hardware store O-rings that is why I suggested them. I have had the same one in my shotgun for a couple of years now. I don't know if it is a Viton O-rings or not.

The Viton O-rings are the best. Here is a link to heat resistant (up to 400 degrees) Viton rubber O-rings. They are going to set you back a pretty penny though, a grand total of $1.70 for 25 pieces. That is a little cheaper than the $4 each Remington charges. The size in the link is 021 the size that suppose to fit the 1100 12ga shotguns.

mnrivrat Here is your Technical Data. It is also available on the website link. You should know that not everything put on guns from the factory is the best. There are many after market parts that are better than the factory original. Who knows, Viton might make the O-rings for Remington.

# 70 Durometer Rubber Viton Orings
# A general purpose VitonŽ (Fluorocarbon Elastomer) compound suitable for applications requiring resistance to high temperatures and compression set. Outstanding resistance to blended aromatic fuels and straight aromatics as well as halogenated hydrocarbons. Good resistance to strong acids and steam. Temperature range -20° to 400°F (-29° to 204°C).


http://www.oringsandmore.com/servlet/the-130/Viton-Rubber-Orings-/Detail


GC

Titan6
August 23, 2008, 06:20 AM
Thanks Max, I will be ordering a box of those.

In the past I have the displeasure of always buying two because they are expensive and then by the time I need the second one it is dry rotted and no good. I keep doing it hoping it will be different so I must be a little crazy. How do these rings hold up to dry rot?

mnrivrat
August 23, 2008, 10:14 AM
Thanks from me also Max100 for the link - I will look at the data there.

If you have any information as to the Remington O-Ring specs and how they compare that would also be good.

chas08
August 23, 2008, 11:05 AM
Lacking a proper cleaning implement, I've also worked a straightened paperclip in the holes that bleed off gas to cycle the action and pushed out a bit of gunk.

Pipe cleaner soaked in solvent works for me. :)

kle
August 23, 2008, 01:12 PM
put 75 shells through it today, with only one FTEject midway through. Looks like something fixed it.

Now if I can just figure how to aim, we'll be all good!

Thanks, everyone.

oneounceload
August 23, 2008, 02:11 PM
IIRC, Remington's O-rings are NOT rubber, but a combination of materials and are just slightly off standard dimensions.

Try using some carb cleaner on you gas ports (with that little red hose), and don't use a lube where your seals are, Remington says that should be dry - I know, I used up two O-rings on my 28 1100 that way.

Oh yeah, don't "aim" the gun, point it......

and have a lot of fun!

Pete409
August 23, 2008, 03:02 PM
KLE,

You should check to make sure your gun isn't a 3" magnum. This info will be on the barrel.

The O-rings from Remington aren't anything special. I've used Viton O-rings and they work well. Ordinary plumbing O-rings work well too. For about 20 cents each, who cares how long they last?

Be sure to clean the gun thoroughly after about every 100 shells. Also keep it well lubed with Breakfree CLP or something very similar. This includes the outside of the magazine tube where the gas piston rides. Regardless what Remington says about keeping it dry, wet (with lubricant) works better under nearly all except extreme cold conditions.

BTW, the O-ring should be 15/16" I.D. and 1 1/16" O.D.

Another thing to do to help with extraction is to polish the chamber with 00 steel wool.

kle
August 23, 2008, 03:13 PM
nope, 2 3/4" only; I was thinking about getting an 11-87 (with its ability to take 3" shells) but I figured that I'm only killing clay anyways, so 2 3/4" should be plenty. Plus, more shot won't matter if I can't hit, anyways =)

Today was abysmal, score-wise--I hit 4/25, 14/25, and 10/25 targets in 3 rounds of trap; last week, somehow, I did better with 14/25 and 18/25 targets at the same game with the same gun. The good news is that my gun isn't part of the problem now.

ants
August 23, 2008, 03:46 PM
Lotsa good advice above about the need for cleaning. Remington recommends steel wool and solvent to clean the piston and seal. See below for lubrication.

I have seldom found the action spring to be bad on an 1100 unless it got rusty (or dirty) and froze up. When the free length reduces by an inch or so, it still does its job. Did you know that the 1100 uses the same action spring for 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and 410 bore? It is not a recoil spring, but it simply returns the bolt carrier to battery. Your failure to extract and eject are indicative of dirty or worn parts that failed to cycle the bolt carrier all the way back. Short cycling left the old hull in the action.

Yes, the newly designed piston and seal are different from the old type. See the link below for the owner's manual. It shows how to assemble the piston and seal on various models and gauges.

Many 2-3/4" barrels for the 1100 12 gauge have two smaller gas ports instead of one large port. Check carefully to see if you have two ports and make sure both are clean. The 3" magnum barrels only have one port. Remington recommends a 1/16" wire to clean the ports (see owner's manual link below).

LUBRICATION:
Go here for the 1100 owner's manual
http://www.remington.com/pdfs/om/om_11001187.pdf
Remington recommends a LIGHT film of oil on all parts, including piston and seal assembly. But only a very LIGHT film, because too much oil becomes muddy when it mixes with combustion gas. That's what slows down an 1100 action. If you run it dry, it doesn't really ruin the shotgun but it wears the piston, seal and o-ring prematurely. I run a light film of gun oil and it works extremely well.

Pete409
August 23, 2008, 04:07 PM
The only thing slowing down the bolt assembly in its rearward travel is the action spring. Many people refer to this as a "recoil" spring. With wear and repeated cyclings, these springs lose some of their effectiveness.

It's a good idea to replace these action (recoil) springs about every 5,000 to 8,000 rounds depending upon the loads being shot in the gun. Failure to keep a good recoil spring in the gun will result in excessive impact forces when the bolt stops its rearward travel. This can cause premature breakage of several different parts including the link (connector), the bolt, and perhaps even the receiver itself. The spring is cheap (about $8 I think) so there is no reason for not replacing it about every 5,000 to 8,000 rounds.

There can be a variety of reasons why an 1100 does not eject an empty cartridge, but the first thing to check (IMO) is for cleanliness and proper lubrication. Of course, that is assuming the gun is properly assembled which is not always the case. :)

kle
August 23, 2008, 05:56 PM
"New style" piston/seal vs. "Old style":
(Old on left, New on right)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3021/2790696520_f39614d3aa_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kent_le/2790696520/)

"Old style" installed:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3097/2790699678_89b5516f72_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kent_le/2790699678/)

"New style" installed:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3006/2789849967_1c69cd0fe0_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kent_le/2789849967/)

At least, I think that's what is referred to as "new" and "old". I think this gun is older than me, actually--anyone have a way to date a Remington 1100? I suppose I could always call Remington...

chas08
August 24, 2008, 12:14 AM
Its hard for me to tell from the photos but the piston rings stack with the flat side toward the action, and the contours toward the muzzle. One concave and one convex nestled together. The o-ring goes on last, and if memory serves correctly, fits into a slight groove on the magazine tube and does not actually move when the gun is fired. I no longer own an 1100 but I still do have an 1187 and that is how it is on it.:)

kle
August 24, 2008, 12:49 AM
yeah, I figured that much out; had I installed it the other way (contours towards the action), I probably would've broken something on the first shot =)

I posted the pictures to illustrate what I was trying to explain to mnrivrat: The 'old' style piston/seal system is two parts that are definitely two separate pieces, while the "new" style is two parts that snap into each other and become one 'assembly'. I was saying they seemed 'backwards' because the angled faces are reversed in the 'new' style. Obviously, it still works, but it just seemed backwards.

Virginian
August 24, 2008, 02:32 AM
I like older 1100s. Keep it clean and it won't let you down. I spray the gas system with RemOil after cleaning, and then wipe off the excess. I used WD-40 for probably 25 years before a lot of people decided WD-40 was something evil, with absolutely no ill effects. (Admittedly, WD-40 is not a great lubricant)
To figure out your manufacture dates, assuming the barrel is original to the gun, check here:
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/rsa/questions/barrelcodes

kle
August 24, 2008, 02:40 AM
I believe the barrel is original to the gun, although I bought it used (and the guy I bought it from bought it used, too), so no guarantees.

At the very least, my barrel was made in December, 1977, which makes it 5 years, 6 months older than me =) Thanks for the link!

Virginian
August 24, 2008, 08:30 AM
Apropos of nothing, I have never had an 'O' ring fail. I have replaced a couple that started to look ratty in 5 1100s and 45 years. Uh, better make that 4 1100s and 30 years because the senior member has a metal 'O', no, actually it's a 'V' ring. Both of those that got a little fuzzy were on guns that got soaked and got pulled apart and shaken out and/or wiped off and then put together without any anything on the magazine tube, and I could feel the 'O' ring drag when the gas piston shoved it back up into the barrel ring/magazine tube gap the first time.
I have a bunch of spares, that do not look like they will ever get used, mostly bought from Green Top Sporting Goods on U.S. 1 North of Richmond, VA over the years. They used to keep them in a drawer compartment in one of the cash registers. All of them have the light graphite coating Remington put on them, and not one has even begun to dry out. They live in my gun cleaning box for 8 months a year, and then for 4 months two of them live in my wallet. I think they must be neoprene or some other pretty decent synthetic compound.
If you have persistent problems, I haven't a clue what's wrong.

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