[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Anybody carry a "Kubaton" ?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Sharp Phil]

Carrying Pocket Sticks (http://www.themartialist.com/0503/pocketsticks.htm)

[Ala Dan]

Att: Sharp Phil

Excellent review of the Pocket Stick's !:D

Thanks very much.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Combat-wombat]

Say, what are the legalities of possesion/carry of these in California?

[JShirley]

Sturdy pen or Mini-maglight work great.

[PenHolder]

In CA, if such an item was made wholly or in part of metal or plastic, it looks like it may run afoul of the "dangerous weapon control law". Read 'em and weep (bold emphasis mine):

PC 12020(a): Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:

PC 12020(a)(1): Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses ... any metal knuckles ...

PC 12020(c)(7): As used in this section, "metal knuckles" means any device or instrument made wholly or partially of metal which is worn for purposes of offense or defense in or on the hand and which either protects the wearer's hand while striking a blow or increases the force of impact from the blow or injury to the individual receiving the blow. The metal contained in the device may help support the hand or fist, provide a shield to protect it, or consist of projections or studs which would contact the individual receiving a blow.

One could consider the kubaton itself a "projection", in roles other than as a fist-load.

PC 12020.1 basically extends the above for "hard plastic knuckles".

(This is why my 2-AA Maglite is strictly for lighting purposes, you see.)

-PH

[Felonious Monk]

I carry one, threaded through with a loop of paracord on my keychain at the end of a quick-release keychain.
Don't know jack about technique, except that a hammer fist with the thing should devastate/break arms, wrists, hand bones, heads, about anything it runs into if you're up close and personal with a slimeball intent on relieving you of your hard-earned goodies.

As far as CA goes, I would think that a StreamLight BatonLite (http://www.pocketlights.com/batonlite.asp) on the end of a keychain would be prudent for ANYone to carry, STRICTLY for utilitarian flashlight purposes, of course. :cool:

I am not an attorney, just a self-proclaimed authority. :rolleyes: :p
You're on your own.

[CWL]

People in CA do carry these, you can often spot them on keychains at checkout lines, -I always wonder if these people really know how to use them.

My problem with them is simply their size, I cannot comfortably carry them in pocket, and since I travel, I'd have to remove them for airports.

Judgement call for LEOs on whether or not they are weapons, my CHP friend gave one as gift to significant-other. If soccer-mom has one, I do not think that LEOs would give a hoot, as opposed to juvenile carrying one.

Small flashlight serves same purpose as fistload device.

[Combat-wombat]

I am into the 2 D-cell Maglite thing. These are great because they have a "legitimate" non-weapon use, but can function as a weapon if need be.

So the CA laws on the Kubatons are hazy? Maybe I should write the Attorney General. Either that or Jim March could chime in.

[Ala Dan]

Howdy Folk's-

My daughter just received a polymer Kubaton from
GALL's, and it's a little larger (fatter) and about 1/10"
longer than my old Persuader model* that I have toted
for year's. Plus the fact, I doesn't have the knurled
outer ring's; as it looks like they have been replaced
with segment's (or joint's) that are turned inward.
Of course, GALL's has there name and PX number
implanted in white; where its very visible.

*FootNote: only thing I keep on mine is a handcuff
key and my house key. In a court of law, I would
swear that the Kubaton is just a key ring! With (1)
key on it, my attorney say's that would be a valid
defense.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[DerRottweiler]

I carried one of those for years. I loaned it to a friend that was deploying to Turkey during Desert Storm and haven't seen it or him since! He did call when he got back to CONUS and said that it had saved his sorry butt in a Bar scrap that he had gotten into tho so I told to keep it.
I've been meaning to get another but just haven't gotten around to it.

[STEVE M]

I carry one daily. As a reinforcement for a punch there are better choices.

I look at mine as below a punch or kick in severity of force. It is really

more of a pain control device, better for getting overly obnoxious ones off

of you than stopping a real attack. Training is a great help. think of it more

as an aid to joint locks.

[4v50 Gary]

Don't think the metal knuckles applies to the kubaton. The Kubaton is basically applied against pressure points as opposed to being used to reinforce a punch. If kubatons could be considered as metal knuckles, then you could be in trouble for that felt marker pen or a roll of dimes.

[CWL]

What 4v50 Gary said,

Here's my 'kubaton', and I can take it anywhere. It can be used as a 'fistload' weapon as well as in hammerfists (nice tapered ends), but these tips just beg for use on pressure points and in control techniques.

They're also free right now. Got my 4-pack at STAPLES for less than $5.00 retail - and after the rebate, my only cost was sales tax and the price of a stamp.

[JShirley]

Looks good- how well does it stand up to impact?

John

[4v50 Gary]

CWL - yes, how well does that 4x4 permanent marker work? When it's dried, try it against something and let us know.

When all these 4x4 start showing up at airline checkpoints and there's absolutely no graffitti onboard aircraft or in airline terminals, do you think TSA will have a clue?:p

[mercop]

I like the Steamlight Stylus as a Kubaton. I carry a tradition one on and off duty with my keys. I have only every used it in one fight and I did some damage. It worked well and a drew no other weapons.

[jercamp45]

Was/am(still licensed anyway, CEU's current) a massage therapist/shiatsuist for a number of years...so I know the points fairly well.......can help, can heal, can hurt.....versatility.
Got a nice fat ballpoint pen too.
Had a kubotan, but it is MIA from my collection of 'dangerous' implements....shoot a minimag is 10 bucks and fully explainable to anyone!! Yawara/kubotan/light all in one! The Boy Scout in me is pleased!
Ohh, fist load.??.....ugh, sorry I'll put all the force of my arm concentrated on the tiny area of the butt of the light, thanks. Why mess up my knuckles?
Doing security for the last two years since 911(something Freudian about that or just a desire for 'something new and completely different'?), and carry my minimag on and off duty!
I have a Taclight on my ASP(a most handy poking tool that can expand for distant strikes against muscle groups, pressure points, bone and, well, more fragile targets-trachea, Occipital and temporal regions-, comealong and takedown's...though not legal everywhere!), and a Surefire, but those are Bright lights and the batteries are EXPENSIVE...minimag suffices for general use!!
A most cool and useful tool...think I first heard of it in Mel Tappan's 'Survival Gun's' circa 1976(same year I 'discovered' the 1911...). So, I guess you can say they are both very old friends for me!!
Jercamp45

[Smoke]

Kubotans impressed me ever since I went to my 2nd trip to Powderhorn (http://www.powderhornedge.com/training.htm)

I carry an aluminum one with blunt ends and no contours. I also second teh mini maglite, very effective as a kubotan.

and as others have said....Seek training.

[NeverAgain26]

I bought one and was stopped by security from going into an airport with it. The truth is a good flashlight (for which one won't get stopped) will serve the same purpose.

My question is, besides from going to a course on how to use these, where can a person learn how to use one? I saw some books on the internet and they looked too shoddy to buy and did not look all too instructive.

I want to learn how to use one as the concept is great.

Any tips on a book and where I can buy it?

NA26

[Smoke]

Check out the book by Tak Kubota, he popularized the use of the Kubotan.

Its a small paperback book but informative.

[Lancel]

Carry one every day with a single car key attached to a quick release ring with other keys if needed. It's a nylon fiber tapered (preferred) or blunt depending on which vehicle I'm driving.

A kubaton with just the car key is carried in my left hand as I walk toward my vehicle day or night.

Also a kubaton is useful for using as a map pointer, back scratcher or just idly twirling between fingers.:D

Larry

[c-bag]

a stanley utility knife can be used as an improvised kubaton and gives the added benifit of a razor-sharp slashing tool-weapon

[Mr. Bombastic]

http://www.uploadit.org/files/011003-edcstuff.jpg

A kobutan can come in numerous forms. In my opinion, the most effective way to use one is with hammerfist/reverse hammerfist strikes to the head/neck/attacking limbs.

The good thing about pocket sticks in general, is that they can be used to create discomfort using pain compliance (if you're versed in that sort of thing) or to simply break bones/concuss an assailant.

They are legal in 99% of the places one would normally go too.

In addition to Sharp Phil's excellent website (why not subscribe? :D) (http://www.themartialist.com/subscription.htm) Don Rearic's site (http://www.donrearic.com/main.html) has lots of great info on pocket sticks too.

[ktd]

One of my favs is the Monodnock DeJammer. Kind of a skinny Kubotan, it is designed to also function as a cleaning rod and clearing rod. Because it lacks mass and diameter, it is not a true kubotan, and has some limits (ie, not a good fist packer). But as my instructor pointed out, excellent for stirring coffee. I primarily use mine as a key fob (I stick the DeJammer in my waistband), sometimes as a cleaning rod, and occasionally as a coffee stirrer.

I have a kubotan, but it was a pita to carry (does not go in waistband very well), so now I use it as my basement key chain.

You do see them all over soCal, and not one of those people can say the name right, much less know how to use it.

In restricted areas I go to the mini-mag, large sharpie, or chopsticks (does not look odd due to ethnicity), now that I think about it, a little raised point on the batt cap of the minimag sounds like a useful idea......

ditto on the don rearic site, http://www.donrearic.com/main.html is an excellent site for alt weapons and stuff.

[mercop]

For anyone who is interested my dojo is hosting a Kubaton Instructors Course for Security/ LE on WED 22OCT03 0800=1600 hrs. Non security/LE/MIL will be accepted on a case by case basis. This is not because it is anything double top secret but because we want to keep a consistant theme in the class. Contact me at mercop@comcast.net for more info. Reddragonjujitsu.com. I would be happy to e-mail a flyer. We are two minutes of Rt 95 in Havre De Grace MD.

[igor]

not one of those people can say the name right, much less... :p ethymology 101 anyone? This is good fun. ;)

What I practice most in karate these days is trapping, grappling and very close range striking in the framework of kata bunkai - a lot of that stuff works very well with a kubotan in hand. In kobujutsu I do tekko practice, some of that handiwork also translates to this and the distancing/angles/footwork principles certainly do. With a couple of extra key rings, some grippable keys, voilá, instant miniature nunchaku.

Of course I've also gone through Takayuki Kubota's (sp! ;) ) books to understand whence the implement comes. Some of his own pain compliance technique I can adapt very well, a lot of his style otherwise I can't.

I used to carry an aluminum one a lot, lost it :banghead: , now I'm with the Mini Mag-Lite crowd, oftentimes also with a Victorinox Tool for added weight ... it would be a good idea to get a plastic one too, for any metal detector -infested events.

What I never would do is hang any keys that fit anything in my life to a kubotan. It seems that in a lot of cases it's a very viable option to discard the tool in the middle of the technique; something you don't want to do with anything of significant value as such (nor with any actual weapon that your opponent likely could turn against you). Think about the implications.

[Lancel]

What I never would do is hang any keys that fit anything in my life to a kubotanA key should be attached to some kind of ring or holder. A stick works real good as a key ring. So does OC spray.

Considering it's a good habit to have a car key in hand before you get to the car, it's probably better to have a stick or OC in your hand than a furry rabbit's foot.

That's assuming there's no good rabbit's foot self defence technique.
Also due to safety issues, it's not a good idea to hang a gun from your car key. :D

Using a koppo stick improves retention, keeping a spare in your wallet reduces worry. :)

Larry

[MillCreek]

In resurrecting this old thread, I have been a kubotan user for a couple of decades now and used to be an instructor.

Given the new security emphasis in airports and governmental buildings (I am often in government buildings on business), I have discovered my Choate nylon fiber kubotans, Streamlight batonlite and my old Model 2 Persuaders usually don't pass the security screen.

I had tried a mini-maglite (2 AA) but found it a bit heavy. I am currently using one of two flashlights as a kubotan: the Pelican MityLite 3N LED and the Streamlight Pro Polymer 3N. Both of them are roughly the same dimensions as a kubotan, are much lighter than the mini-maglite, are very tough plastic and readily pass the security screen. I deliberately bought each flashlight in a bright neon yellow color which facilitates going through the screen and helps to locate the keys, too. Both of these cost around $ 15-17, depending on where you find them.

The only drawback is that N cells can be somewhat expensive and more difficult to find compared to AAA or AA cells. I located a source of rechargeable N cells and adaptors that allow me to charge the N cells in a AA charger. I swap out the cells every two weeks and find they keep a good charge over that time.

The key of course, is knowing how to use it. I roll my eyes at the people who only use the kubotan as a key flail. Better than nothing perhaps, but nothing beats a good joint lock on the wrist or a come along on the earlobe!

PS: I forgot to mention that one of my favorite kubotans of all time were the old ASP 9" expanding baton in aluminum. Very light weight and you had the option of flipping it out to 9" in length. I think they called it the defender, or something like that. I have often thought that ASP or someone else should resurrect that. This still would not pass contemporary security screens, but I hadn't thought of my old ASP kubotans in some time.

[4v50 Gary]

Concur. As a key flail it's almost worthless. Sure you can flail away, but does anyone really think it'll keep the bad guy back? It's best used to apply against pressure point.

[CRUSHER]

I carried a kubaton for about ten years and then switched to a Streamlight BatonLite.
I worked in I rarely ever had anyone question it on duty

Its just a key ring !!!.lol

[Dirty Bob]

I carry a Streamlight Batonlite in one pocket and a (sadly discontinued) Cold Steel Twistmaster in the other. I think the Twistmaster would hurt more, as the lock ring edge has a hard, 90-degree corner on it! Opinels are another knife that would work as a pocket stick. I also have a Stylus 3 flashlight in a shirt pocket.

Other objects that can be used include:
hair brushes
tooth brushes (the ergonomic ones)
sturdy pens
short, metal rulers (ouch!)
small metal files
center punches
scratch awls (look like a pen in the pocket)
tire pressure gauges

Home Depot and Office Depot are arsenals. At my desk at work, almost anywhere at home, and in my car, I can lay hand to several innocent objects that would work for self-defense, if need be.

For some basics, take a look at the old Bruce Tegner book on Stick Fighting. You can get it -- used -- via Amazon at a low price, or ask your local librarian to order it for you (usually for free) through interlibrary loan. Simple, but not bad.

Regards,
Bob

[Russ89]

well i live in the state of Washington in Spokane county and i recently pruchesed a kubaton. i have wrote to the sheriffs and haven't got a reply. now dose anyone know the legality in Washington about these?

[MillCreek]

As a long-time user and former instructor, they are not illegal to carry in Washington state. They will generally be confiscated at the airport and the local/Federal courthouses, however.

[Green Lantern]

I carry a nice, harmless-looking MiniMag (with Nite-Ize LED upgrade) with me pretty well everywhere.

I've read a small manual by Kubota and John Peters ("The official manual of Kubotan techniques," IIRC) on the pain compliance/pressure point techniques, and hope to eventually get some "real" training.

Though I experimented with pressure points on MYSELF and was sore for a few days aterwards, so I guess I have a little "hands-on" experience! ;)

If I ever get a "real" one, I like the idea of adding a keyring and a "DUMMY" key that does not actually open anything! :D

QUESTION - would most ANY Karate/martial arts school be able to teach me how to use one, or would it take a specially-trained instructor?

[hso]

School to school you'll find those that know, those that think they know and those that know they don't.

The ideal would be to be able to carry a kubaton all the time, but an stealth kubaton like the minimag or the inova lights or even the Fisher Space Pen Millenium pen are always good to have at hand.

[Sharpdogs]

The Inova lights make fantastic kubatons. The are built like tanks. Do not under estamite folding knives as improvised kubatons. A Buck 110 makes a heck of fist load and can pack a wallup.

[WhiteMarshJohnny]

I just bought a keyring kubaton
http://www.amazon.com/Century-Kubaton/dp/B0000AXK1Q

Can this be used as defense against a dog attack?

It seems that just by holding my keyes at the end and swinging the kubaton I could likely break a window or dent a car. Is the kubaton used in this way to hit a potential attacker?

I read somewhere about "hammerfist strikes". Could someone explain to someone like me (no martial arts trainging) what that is?

I'd appreciate any advise you all can offer.

[Ricebrnr]

As a long time practitioner (TKD) I usually advise against any weapons for those without training. The main reasons being, lack of training means ineffective use and easy disarming of said weapon.

For your particular scenario, even a kubuton trained expert would no doubt recommend a good can of mace.

HTH

[hso]

Get Master Kubota's training materials. Since DVD/Vid are available get one of those to start IF you can't find a local school that teaches kubotan. While kubotans are simple tools that are easily learned it is essential to get training in their use. It's not possible to get that training from THR.

[symr00]

Sounds like you'd be better served by an ASP Key-Defender or ASP Palm-Defender. Both are kubaton key rings but have an OC cannister inside. They also make inert cannister refills for training.

[Green Lantern]

^^^ All good advice, but to answer your question about using the Kubotan as a flail - well, you COULD use it that way. But from what little I know about them, I don't think it would be very effective. I know that experts say that if an instructor tells you to do the opposite - hold the Kubotan and flail with your KEYS - to get a refunt find a QUALIFIED instructor!

BTW, I'd be hesitant to put any "real" keys on a Kubotan, for fear of losing it in a fight or something. Though if you live in a VERY "progressive" locale that BANS carry of sticks (yes there ARE such places), then having it as a "key ring" might be useful! ;)

I can say that based on what I've read, the Kubotan was mainly designed as a pain compliance tool using pressure points, NOT as a club. Though I have heard of it being used to "reinforce" hammer-blow strikes.

[Green Lantern]

Hmmm...."el cheapo but one-of-a-kind Christmas present" anyone? This weekend, it dawned on me that I happen to have most of a 5/8" diameter dowel (the diameter of the "official" Kubotan circa early 1980s) left over from a little Ghostbusters prop project I worked on last year:

(note those two red rods on the side) (http://www.geocities.com/gbkyle2004/patrap1.jpg)

So, proving right all those that say I "have too much free time" right, I set about "building" some Kubotans! :D

First sawed off an eyeballed 5 1/2" of dowel, then used a cheap Dremel tool knockoff to put in some "ridges" to improve grip. Sanded rough edges.

Then I deviated from the norm by drilling a hole for a keyring on one end. :banghead: (had I bothered to consult my "Official Kubotan Handbook" I could have seen that I could have had a MUCH easier time by drilling a hole for a small eye-screw).

Because, I've already ruined one keyring trying to thread it through the hole - the curve just won't let it get all the way through! :o

Well, here you actually CAN carry one without having to USE it as a keyring...so, forget that for now.

I guess the Kubotan itself won't be worth much more THAN a keyring though, without at least giving them an idea of HOW to use it. Hey, the holidays are all about spending time with loved ones anyway! :D

Or failing that, at LEAST buy them an illustrated handbook, or point them to a competent instructor.

All in all, they didn't turn out too bad. Painted my "prototype" black, and gave the other one a nice shiny clear-coat. The latter I may give to a cousin, who's in college right now. :)

[bad LT]

A "pseudo-Kubaton" was my constant companion throughout highschool. I carried a large steel pen clipped to my right front pocket. What was the worst the school could do to me if I ever had to defend myself with it: expell me for carrying a writing utensil:neener: .


I still carry that same pen when I have to enter places where I cannot carry any "real weapons" (Chiciago, courthouses, NYC, Europe, etc.) It is as innocent a weapon as I can think of and yet pretty effective for something of that size.

[Deathrider1579]

I carry a Kubaton on my key chain, I have remedial training about its use.

I also give them to the girls I know as birthday presents and stocking stuffers as the occasion arises.

-DR

[ktd]

Some saavy cops/security types will recognize the kubotan, they may or may not hassle you about it. I would figure the TSA people probably know about it, I just carry my minimag flashlight and some pens. My car keys each have a monodnock dejammer, which is basically a cleaning rod/kubotan. Does not work very well as a fistpacker, but it does okay for a jab or for a conversation piece (when you do a thumb push on someone it is pretty funny). My old instructor used his to stir coffee. The dejammer impressed some leo friends when I had a stuck magazine and unstuck it with the dejammer and still qualified in time.

k

[michaelmcgo]

First post here, hello everyone.
I have made a few of these, and carried them as well. I like to carry them loose in my rear right pocket, held upright by my wallet (a Fenix L2T has taken it's place though).
This one has a 5/8" x 5" aluminum handle with a carbide tip:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/michaelmcgo/DSC01099.jpg

This one has a 5/8" x 6" aluminum handle with a 1018 carbon steel tip (black oxide coating):
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k168/michaelmcgo/DSC01120.jpg

[hso]

michaelmcgo,

Great looking work! Try leaving one end flat without radiusing the edge and then mill a slot across that end. The slot should be 1/8 in wide. This leaves a hard edges face that the slot acts to pinch and tear when twisted into bare skin.

[Nematocyst]

Waiting on the next generation
of kubotans and koppos
from this crew (http://alphainnovationsllc.com/default.aspx).

In communication with them,
I'm told that the next generation is due out
some time in the next month or two.

Worth the wait ... .. .

[DrLaw]

I have a Monodock (or however that is spelled) Kubaton that has the attached key ring. I broke my first and Monodock replaced it. :)

I've never lost my keys since getting it. :D

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[MillCreek]

Those Alpha Innovations kubotans remind me of when Choate was still making kubotan out of nylon-filled polymer. Nowadays, I use a Monadnock Model 2 ridged kubotan in fluorescent orange.

[Reloader]

Used to when i worked juvie detention in the 90's. worked very well.