44 Special data for 44 Mag brass?


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bandur60
August 22, 2008, 08:11 PM
Does the longer magnum brass cause strange things to happen if 44sp data is used to load to 44mag length? I have no 44sp brass but want to load milder, and starting load data for the mag is higher than max for special. Guess I could trim some brass back....

I've loaded rifle cartridges since ('70?) and 38/357, but just got the 629 a year ago and a Vaquero two weeks ago.

This question is asked in all seriousness. Thanks.

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Floppy_D
August 22, 2008, 08:17 PM
I've been told to add 10% to 44 spl loads in 44 mag cases to compensate for extra volume, but I am eager to hear what other fellows have to say. I use 10.0g of 2400 under a 240g LSWC, and it's one of my favorite loads. I also use 6.2g of Unique behind a 240g LSWC loaded backwards and seated flush to the case mouth, to make a 44mag WC load. A VERY accurate and economical load.

zxcvbob
August 22, 2008, 08:23 PM
I recommend using .44 Magnum data for a very fast powder like Red Dot or Titegroup. The starting data for these powders should be just about what you want, and you can go up a little or down a lot from there to get whatever level you want -- very economically too.

Or you can use normal pressure .45 Colt load data (not the "Ruger" data) in .44 Magnum brass for whatever powder you have.

ranger335v
August 22, 2008, 08:24 PM
It sounds like you are asking if the .44 M can be down loaded. ??

If so, it sure can. But not withw H-110 or Win 296. Unique works great with moderate loads.

Snapping Twig
August 23, 2008, 02:54 AM
Want something in the 900fps range? Try 7g W231 under a cast 240g SWC. That's been my go-to load for a "useful special" for the past 20+ years.

Many say Unique or HS6 are a good selection for a midrange round too.

Like you, I use magnum brass - I don't like resetting the dies or the carbon rings in the cylinder.

evan price
August 23, 2008, 05:05 AM
If you are using lead bullets you can get away with a lot lower charges. I use Titegroup and a 240-grain Lead SWC bullet. You can do 4.7 grains which is the .44 spl load for mouse-fart .44's or 6.3 grains for something a little more heavy but still light. I load 9.7 grains of Titegroup for more fully powered range loads with no leading problems with my hardcast bullets.

bluetopper
August 23, 2008, 10:23 AM
I have a 44 Redhawk on layaway.......has anyone loaded light with Power Pistol powder?

.38 Special
August 23, 2008, 02:58 PM
I have experienced bloopers in downloading the magnums, even with faster powders like Unique. So in general, I am a little leery of going below recommended charges.

I have switched to IMR Trail Boss for almost all light loads in large cases. It is made for the task and works beautifully. IMR suggests six grains in the .44 Magnum with the 240 LSWC for about 800 FPS. Link. (http://www.imrpowder.com/data/handgun/trailboss-feb2005.php) In the OPs shoes this is what I would use.

evan price
August 24, 2008, 10:22 PM
Only problem with Trail Boss is a half-pound can costs as much as a full pound of other powders.

depoloni
August 25, 2008, 02:02 PM
I regularly load cast "special" loads in full 44mag brass in my 8-1/2" Taurus for the wife to shoot.

After all is said and done, I like between 6.0 grains of W-231 at ~800fps and 7.0 grains at ~900fps behind 240 SWC or RNFP bullets. Both velocities are from my pistol/chrono but are both very accurate and mild.

Fourbits
August 25, 2008, 02:40 PM
Here are a couple of light loads I've used without any problems. All with a 240 grain LSWC.

Unique 8.2
Winchester 231 8.1
Winchester 231 5.6

The 5.6 grains W231 is so light it feels like a 38 special. You might want to stick to the 8.1 grains!

.38 Special
August 25, 2008, 09:40 PM
Only problem with Trail Boss is a half-pound can costs as much as a full pound of other powders.

My local shop sells Trail Boss for $13 a can and other IMR powders for $20 a can. The Trail Boss is more expensive but nothing like double, and of course, one tends to use less Trail Boss than other typical powders.

Just for yucks, I looked up a few prices. Cabela's sells TB for $13 a can and other IMR powders for $22 a can. Powder Valley has TB for $11 a can and other IMR powders for $17-$18 per can. Midway has TB for $12.50 a can and other IMR powders for $21 per can.

So I think you need to shop at a different store, mate!

evan price
August 26, 2008, 02:52 AM
I buy Titegroup for $11.25 a pound in 8# jugs from a local distributor- but that's not strictly relevant, even though the price per pound is LESS than Trail Boss.

It's $14.99 per pound at the local shop however, and we'll use those numbers for comparison (Perhaps you should shop at another store, mate!):

Trail Boss is $13.99 a half-pound at my local shop.

By way of comparison 2400 is $18.99 per pound at the local shop.

.44 Magnum 240-lead-SWC from
Hodgdon's 2008 Basic Reloader's Manual, pg 31, Cowboy Action Data: Smokeless Pistol/Carbine:

Titegroup:
4.7 gr 801 fps/11,100 CUP minimum
6.2 gr 970 fps/18,400 CUP maximum

Trail Boss:
6.0 gr 828 fps/19,100 CUP minimum
7.3 gr 917 fps/21,600 CUP maximum

Cost, buying std. cans at the shop:
Titegroup-
Min load:Approx 1.1
Max load:Approx 1.4

Trail Boss-
Min load:Approx 2.4
Max load: Approx 2.9

In actual fact, Trail Boss costs more than double the cost of Titegroup, and it produces quite a bit more pressure for not much of a difference in velocity.

Titanic waste of effort on my part to bother looking it all up and doing the maths especially since everyone probably dozed off or hit the <back> button a full 30 seconds ago- but there you have it.

.38 Special
August 26, 2008, 09:01 PM
You win, mate. The best price you can possibly find for bulk Titegroup is better than the average price on the minimum amount available from your local shop.

Thanks for opening my eyes for me! :p

sargenv
August 26, 2008, 09:30 PM
While trail boss is more expensive than Titegroup, what you gain with trail boss is the security in knowing you will positively fill the case and will not have much of a chance of a double charge as you might with Titegroup. Trail boss is quite fluffy and you would not be able to double it without spilling it all over the place.

In fact, I just took a comparitive picture comparing 8 gr of Trail boss to a nearly triple charge of Titegroup (18 gr) in a 44 magnum case. I would personally pay the slightly higher price of the Trail boss to ensure there would be no way I could double charge myself into a destroyed gun. I've seen what a double charge of Bullseye (18 gr) can do to a Ruger Redhawk.. and it ain't pretty.

.38 Special
August 26, 2008, 09:42 PM
Too late. Evan already won the thread. He's probably enjoying his trophy as we speak. :neener:

sargenv
August 26, 2008, 09:48 PM
I really don't care who wins a thread.. all I'm interested in is informing you of mistakes I or other people close to me have made and want to prevent. Loading such a large case with fast burning propellant can cause issues like that. Cheap is one thing, foolish is quite another. I've always loaded all my pistol cases with the method of single charge viewable, double charge overflows. Until trail boss came along, it was hard to find a powder that could do that. Use the info as you will. :)

zxcvbob
August 26, 2008, 10:12 PM
Check out Alliant Promo. It's just under $10 per pound, quite bulky, and it burns clean at moderate pressure levels. Use Red Dot load data. A double charge will not necessarily overflow a .44 Magnum case, but it will fill it to the brim. (be forewarned that the recoil will get really nasty as you approach a maximum load, even though the muzzle velocity is not all that high)

I use Promo in my favorite .45 Colt +P load. If you're happy with about 1000 to 1100 fps with a middleweight bullet, you can't beat Red Dot or Promo in a big bore revolver.

evan price
August 26, 2008, 11:48 PM
I'll put the trophy with my Special Olympics trophies...you know what they say about arguing on the internet and whoever wins or loses...

If you re-read my post you will see I used the standard 1# can price of $14.99 each for my figures, not the 8# bulk keg price per pound which would show even greater savings-
And I have yet to see Trail Boss in 8# kegs.


If you are carefully loading you won't have triple charges or double charges, will you?

jjohnson
August 27, 2008, 08:19 AM
+1, Sargenv. Most of us aren't here to win threads. Call it "operator error" on my part but I've made my own mistakes in reloading. The overcharged .44 Special ammo was found while shooting it in my S&W M29, not my Charter Arms Bulldog :what: so I'm typing with ALL of my fingers.

I suspect those of us who reload those big bores a lot have seen that happen once or twice. It's annoying to find a squib load in your ammo :cuss: but downright exciting to find a double charge. :eek: High volume powders like Trail Boss add a safety factor to an inherently dangerous operation.

No, I don't watch TV or anything when I reload, but have been interrupted once or twice. There are old reloaders, and bold reloaders, but not that many old bold reloaders. At least, not with all their fingers. :uhoh:

sargenv
August 27, 2008, 10:04 AM
You won't find trail boss in an 8 pound keg because a 5 pound keg is the same volume as most 8 pound kegs. Yes, it is THAT fluffy and light. That is the same reason why IMR sells 9 ounces in a can usually reserved for a pound of denser powder. I'm sure if they could fit a pound in a standard container they'd sell you a pound. :rolleyes:

A bit off topic.. I'm using it currently in a reduced load for 30-30 winchester utilizing either 150 gr plated or 165 grain lead bullets. I use 8.5 gr and it fills the case approx 65%. I get a velocity of 1150 fps regardless of which bullet I use (oddly enough). I get about 500 ish rounds from a 9 ounce can. Velocity is out of a Marlin 336.

I'm not saying it will happen.. just that it can happen, I prefer to err on the side of caution. You may take this info as you wish and dispose of it if you like :)

I too like Promo.. there are also some other powders out there but they don't have a lot of data. If you want to check out inexpensive, take a look at the REX line. Powder Valley has it. I usually ask for a can of whichever when a local vendor does a group buy. They sell them by the Kilo and I think it comes out to about $10 ish per pound.

MAGNUM44
September 13, 2008, 07:03 AM
8.8 grs of unique with any 240- 245 gr cast or jacket bullet is great have been using this load for years, herco is another good powder. i dont mind the price of powders but its the damm hazard fee of $20.00 that kill me this is all BS i never heard of a UPS truck exploding due to carring a load of powders or primers tell me that its not true, just another liberal money making deal

wcwhitey
September 13, 2008, 11:52 AM
Yes they can, the add 10% quote is a good rule of thumb. I would like to suggest however that a small investment in .44 Special brass is a better way to go than loaded down .44 Mags. You will use the same dies and components and will be making better shooting ammo. You will use less powder for the same performance and they will be more accurate and clean. This is what I have found when trying to download .44 Mag. The two classic loadings for .44 Special are the 6.9 grains of Unique 240 SWC for target loads and 7.5 for something with a little more pop. Both loads will shoot clover leafs in my guns. I do not get that accuracy back until I have gone to almost 10 grains of Unique in .44 Mag cases. JMHO Bill

bluetopper
September 13, 2008, 12:05 PM
I think for a target loads in 44 Mag I'm going to use a full charge of Clays powder as listed.

6.2g behind a 240g lead bullet for 940fps.

wanderinwalker
September 14, 2008, 09:48 PM
But figured I'd toss my share in too!

I've loaded and fired lots of what I call .44 Magnum LITEs. What I usually do is pick a powder listed for my bullets in both .44 Special cases and .44 Magnum cases. Then I go to a charge range between the max Special load and min Magnum loading, and go from there.

One of my best shooting loads is 8.3gr of Winchester 231 under a 240gr lead SWC in .44 Magnum brass. Whatever brass I have tumbled clean and either CCI-300 or Winchester Large Pistol primers are all I need to have good shooting, accurate, inexpensive, 0-pain fun.

These chronograph 970-fps from my 6" 629. I've thought of bumping it some to get an honest 1000-fps, but they work so well I haven't bothered.

Oh, and the 8.3gr is because that is what one of the discs on the Lee Auto-Disk powder measure throws! :p

.38 Special
September 14, 2008, 10:12 PM
If you re-read my post you will see I used the standard 1# can price of $14.99 each for my figures, not the 8# bulk keg price per pound which would show even greater savings-
And I have yet to see Trail Boss in 8# kegs.

Okay. Even without arguing the specifics, I note that your figures show it costs an extra penny per round, a whole 50 cents per box. Considering the results I have been getting, I am not going to worry about it.

jh9x18ky
October 2, 2008, 07:31 PM
I like 44 mag cases, 10.1gr AA7 with a 200gr cast lead bullet... stronger than a special, lighter than a mag, still fairly economical, and very fun to shoot.

Remo-99
October 3, 2008, 03:32 AM
Yes you can go very low for 44mag with fast powders and light bullets, giving recoil like 38special for target shooting and plinking.
There is a balance to find though, between a light powder charge and reliable ignition, there are ways and methods, but a bulky powder like Trail Boss make things easier.

In actual fact, Trail Boss costs more than double the cost of Titegroup, and it produces quite a bit more pressure for not much of a difference in velocity.

btw, i think you guys maybe getting scammed a little on Trail Boss's selling point of the cowboy action cartridge suitability. Although TB is well suited for this, over here it's like 30% cheaper if bought in a 1.5kg(3.3lb) jug/tin, than if i was to purchase 3x .5kg(1.1lb) tins of a similar burn rate ADI powder.(ie AS30, AS50,etc)

geo57
October 3, 2008, 01:09 PM
7.5 grs. of Unique under a 200 gr. RNFP cast in .44 mag cases makes a nice plinking load and approximates original 44-40 ballistics.

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