[AmericanFreeBird]

Shouldn't you?

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9317&archive=true

I knew it!

:D

[BigG]

Works for me, but then, I'm biased. ;)

[Double Naught Spy]

Good caliber, bad logic. Just because the Marines like something doesn't mean that it is right for John Q. Public unless John Q. is looking for a sidearm to compliment his weapons package assortment and is operating in a large group of heavily armed individuals.

Similarly, the Marines have done some stupid stuff over the years. Just because they are Marines doesn't make the right.

[El Tejon]

Ummm, if the devildog like them so much, why did Crane only build 500 of them?:rolleyes:

[10-Ring]

With so many people in the military with a variety of specialties, there will be diff't needs and opinions on the tools they are supplied with.

[ruger357]

I like them.:)

[Blackhawk]

So, which would I rather have when I expect to be fighting within steps of their enemy, “with very little stand-off room.” -- a ruggedized, heavy M1911A1 or a lighter 9mm DAO?

I'll take the .45, thanks.

However, I don't "expect" to be doing that, but I do "expect" my CCW to be available, hidden, and completely unobtrusive regardless of the caliber.

The right tool for the right job. Sometimes a Cresent wrench IS a better choice than a whole set oof open end wrenches....

[Missouri Mule]

To quote my 12 year old daughter," Well Duuuh, Daddy-O".

Given the choice I will almost always choose the .45 acp, in a 1911! :D

[Handy]

Good God! I can't imagine using the Marine Corps as a model for how to efficiently do much of anything.

Well, maybe ironing or boot polishing.

[Shaughn Leayme]

The Marine Corps has no assets assigned to Special Operations Command (SOCOM) and therefore does not get the benefeit of funding. So they have to find funding inhouse.

It cost's about $2000 (approx) to build each pistol and with only 500 units that isn't a small amount of cash (1 Million dollars) in this day and age of downsizing/cutbacks.

The hardest thing is keeping these weapons up and running, since they are not issued a second set of practice/training weapons. All training is done with these weapons and when you consider that during a 6 month pre-deployment work up and actual deployment , an operator may fire between 20,000 to 40,000 rounds to acquire and maintain proficiency with his secondary weapon.

A life times wear and tear, in less than a year.

[Jaegermeister]

According to the article, they train to shoot one .45 shot to the head of an enemy.

Is a .45 to the head going to make you any more dead than a hot NATO 9mm to the same spot in the head?

A 9mm is easier to shoot, has less recoil and the M9 allows you to shoot 15 people right between the eyes without reloading. I think the 9mm is easier to shoot one-handed if needed.

Also, if you have a 9mm sub gun, having the same ammo for both would be nice.

Jar heads.

[Triad]

It cost's about $2000 (approx) to build each pistol and with only 500 units that isn't a small amount of cash (1 Million dollars) in this day and age of downsizing/cutbacks.
The article says they cost appox. $600. Still, $300,000 is alot ofmoney.

[Kahr carrier]

45ACP :)

[dairycreek]

Seems as if I have read a lot lately about a number of prominent Police Departments readopting 1911's for a variety of reasons. LAPD SWAT seems to have taken to Kimber. I read somewhere recently that a whole PD (sorry, can't remember which one) has adopted the 1911. What goes around, comes around. Good shooting:)

[Shaughn Leayme]

My source is figuring in the total cost of fitting/building and the frame, not just parts and he is quite firm in the $2000 dollar estimate (which was a Marine Corps estimate as well, circa June 99)

He could be wrong, but he has been bang on in regards to other items in this particular field, so I will stick with his estimate.

Weapon details:

1911A1 Frame as made up to 1945 (Colt, Ithaca etc)

Totally dehorned

King's Gun works Beaver tail grip safety and ambidextrous thumb safety and bushing and staked front sight

Videcki aluminum match triggers set at 4.5 lb

Bar-Sto barrels

Slides are either Caspian or Springfield

Inhouse made rear sight

Ejection port is lowered and scalloped

Flat mainspring housing with lanyard rings

Pachmayer rubber grip panels

Colt commander type hammer

Rest of parts are either USGI or commercial equivalent

Magazines Wilson 7 round (7 magazines comprise combat load)

[45auto]

That's a lot of rounds in a short period of time for any gun. I would expect the armorers to be busy. I would guess by the time they "build" the guns they will be full circle "rebuilding" the same guns after a year or two.
Unless they added armorers to do the rebuilds, I guess you could view it as "free labor" so to speak. If they have no funding, it sounds like they are getting great guns for the cost of parts.
If it truly does cost $2,000 per gun and if they ever receive funds, I suspect it would be cheaper to buy new guns to their specs- not sure though.
I wonder what the FBI pays for their Springfield Pros that retail to the consumer for @$2400?
Either way it sounds like they know what they are doing.

[RustyHammer]

" .... in this day and age of downsizing / cutbacks."

Cutbacks ... that's pre-9-11 speak. Military is being well looked after compared to "those" days. (Although, more is always better!)

[Shaughn Leayme]

All too true, still stuck in that pre 9-11 mode of thinking, I guess.

It is hoped that they will allocate the funds correctly and not spend it all in one place.

[Mike Irwin]

Everyone knows the Marines are just a bunch of brainwashed fanatics.

I mean, just watch Mail Call and you'll see what I mean! :D

[Triad]

Armorers at the Marine Corps Weapons Training Battalion in Quantico refit the guns.
I don't blame you for sticking with your source, but if the guns are being built by the armorers, they aren't really paying for labor are they? These are actual Marines doing the work, not contracters?So aren't they paid the same amount regardless of how much work they do?

[Shaughn Leayme]

I would guess that they are looking at man hours to do the work, since if they are working on the pistol, they can't really be working on another weapon.

It's like reloading, we figure the cost of reloading components, but how many of us figure out our time.

The pistols were being hand built by specially trained armorers at the Rifle Team Equipment shop (RTE), Quantico, Virginia. These people are a lot like the master smith to the civilian market.

There was a push on to have the pistol built at the Force company level (armorer with 2111 MOS) so that the pistol could be repaired on site, instead of coming back to Quantico, Virginia.

[FPrice]

The logic the Marines used to choose the .45ACP over the 9mm makes a lot of sense. Within their specific framework of intended usage.

The logic a civilian should use to choose a CCW weapon must envision a different set of circumstances of which the supremacy of one cartridge over the other is only one portion thereof.

If I could wear my CCW pistol the same way a Marine wears his sidearm, then I would go for a Colt .45ACP also. However I have to conceal my firearm and that makes a big difference. I would have to drastically change my lifestyle and wardrobe to conceal a .45.

[Vern Humphrey]

I've carried a full size M1911A1 all my life (and that's a long time). I carried it as a company commander in Viet Nam, and I carry one today, every day.

Yes, you do need a proper holster, but aside from that, there is little change you need to make to your wardrobe or lifestyle.

If you'd like to see the kind of holster I use, and get instructions on how to make it, go to http://paul.desertskyone.com/gunstuff.html

Look for instructions for Vern's Holster, about 2/3s of the way down the page.

[Handy]

If any of you think the military "is being well taken care of" you're on crack. We all just got pay raises, but there are fewer paid personnel all the time. All programs are taking huge cuts. My base is looking at a 25% decrease in operating costs next year!!! And that's after the last 15 years of lean times.

If the government or CNN would like you to believe the military is being built up, they are liars. They are buying planes and ships, but are cutting training and safety budgets to do it. Soon we'll have the finest weapons served by shoeless dropouts in tents.

[noklue3]

Brainwashed fanatics? Boot polishers?
You know it is amazing what people say sometimes about the Marines and yet when there are problems, the Marines are one of the first that are called upon and those same people jump on their bandwagon. All people that serve, Marine, Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard deserve better than comments such as those. Especially from those that have never served.

Art

"Brainwashed Boot Polisher" Sgt., USMC 1968-1972

[Baron Holbach]

I own both a Beretta 92FS and Colt Govt 1911, the latter of which is not a mil-spec but rather an enhanced version of the original. While shooting hundreds of rounds through each of these guns, the Colt .45 proved far more accurate than the Beretta. Beretta 92FS pistols can be accurized with specially designed bushings to make for a tighter barrel to slide fit.

[Baron Holbach]

Noklue3 said:

Brainwashed fanatics? Boot polishers?
You know it is amazing what people say sometimes about the Marines and yet when there are problems, the Marines are one of the first that are called upon and those same people jump on their bandwagon. All people that serve, Marine, Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard deserve better than comments such as those. Especially from those that have never served.

Unquote

I second Noklue3's comments. Our nation is free thanks to the people who have served, and those currently serving, in the Marines and other branches of the U.S. military.

[buzz_knox]

I can't wait for Pat Rogers to see the comments about Marines being boot polisher or brain washed. That'll be fun. :)

[ojibweindian]

I looked at the Winchester web site (http://www.winchester.com) and compared my 9mm carry ammo (Winchester 115gr USA JHP) with their various .45ACP offerings. Using fpe and mv as criteria comparisons revealed no significant differences.

I'll stick with the 9mm. I like lots of rounds in a magazine; gives me the warm fuzzies!

[buzz_knox]

Unfortunately, pure ballistics doesn't tell the tale. If they did, then we'd all be packing Magsafe or the like.

[ojibweindian]

All the data out there suggests, to me, an insignificant difference between .45ACP and 9mm.

Some people like big holes. Fine with me; I like 15 rounds in a magazine. Vive la difference!

[buzz_knox]

I'm not arguing. I actually don't care. But the point in contention is whether the USMC (specifically Force Recon) is incorrect in using the .45. And they aren't. A 1911 is a supremely efficient CQB weapon (or secondary in this case) and in FMJ configuration, I believe that the .45 is superior to the 9mm. Having used both a custom 1911 and a Beretta 92, I think the Devil Dogs made the right choice.

[ojibweindian]

I agree. The Marines are not incorrect in using the .45ACP. But, they would have been just as well served with 9mm.

I've used many platforms in both .45ACP and 9mm (Beretta, Colt, Kimber, Ruger, S&W, Taurus). I've just never really noticed any real difference in power levels between the 9mm and .45ACP.

It pretty much equates to "6 of one, half-dozen of the other".

[45R]

They would be well served either way. I'd perfer the 1911. So what if they use a .45 they can always pick up a 9mm from the BG. :neener:

[Andrew Wyatt]

If I could wear my CCW pistol the same way a Marine wears his sidearm, then I would go for a Colt .45ACP also. However I have to conceal my firearm and that makes a big difference. I would have to drastically change my lifestyle and wardrobe to conceal a .45.


If you really care enough about seriously carrying, changing your wardrobe won't matter.
Besides, a single stack 1911 is thinner than a double stack anything.



Why is this being discussed, anyway? If the Marines want a pistol that fits their hands, they deserve that, right?

[Handy]

The initial assertion was that if the Marines like the 1911, it must be the "right" gun. Which some of us found... curious.

Changing your wardrobe and habits to accomodate a big pistol is really unnecessary. If you're in that much trouble, why don't you have a rifle under your scary black trenchcoat?

[AmericanFreeBird]

Ya see what I started, jest because I love the 1911 .45acp and thought the Marines finally vindicated me for it...

It was fun watching the back and forth wrangling!

To each his own, just hit what you aim at and you'll be fine.

AFB

[Andrew Wyatt]

a 1911 (especially a commander sized example) is not hard to hide at all.

A t-shirt and an unbuttoned button up shirt does quite well, provided you use a proper holster.


Double stack 9mm's are not as concealable because of their width.