[Detritus]

sorry, hope this isn't the wrong thing to do or anything but i realized that i SHOULD have posted like this to begin with....


As any and all of you who’ve read the other threads I started , I am trying to get as much info as I can for use in building and amassing the fodder and other supporting items for, what will hopefully be my “while the hunters are hogging the range” project gun. This project is being built, with the intention of using the gun in a locally held 600 yard, prone match, as well as for more prosaic use as a 100-300 yard general use target gun.

The base gun for this project will be a Savage 10FP with accu-trigger, in.308, barrel specs are, 24" with a 1in10 twist. Beyond this (what the base rifle will be), and the fact that I only intend to do non- “needs a smith” type work. Most of the rest of the specs detailed below are at least somewhat flexible. Especially in Light of the fact that I have never previously attempted such a project, nor have I as of yet shot a 600 match. Therefore, I welcome any and all suggestions that you kind gentlemen can give.

Now this is how my mind has been seeing the project so far (again any info on the articles listed or better alternatives is welcome).

My current intentions/ideas are to restock the gun ASAP (Savage factory stocks SUCK) probably with a Stockade "Wood Chuck", or "Elk Stalker" unit.
Have not yet determined what scope, ring, and base brands/models I intend to use, though I’m leaning toward a Badger Ordnance, or similar matched ring and base set.

Can any of you tell me what the actual utility of an “Adjustable Objective” focus/parallax adjustment is?? I know that I loved the AO feature on the Bushnell I had mounted on my last savage, and in light of the fact that this will not be a “single use/range” scope (unless I go back to the thought of using two separate scopes and a QD base and ring system with a repeatability guarantee) I want to know if NOT having an adjustable objective would be a handicap, or if on the flip side that it’s just another “whiz-bang, do-dad” that can go wrong, or let moisture into the scope and is not really needed??

Yes I fully intend to handload for this rifle, I already know the basics and on my mental shopping list is a set of Lee Collet Die set (achieved wonderful results with my last, .223 chambered, savage, using a set of Lee dies. I know some folks don’t like em, and there are supposedly better units on the market, but I like them and right now not only are they within my reach when the time comes, but it’ll be a good long while before I will even get close to the point where it would be truly worth my while to get the higher priced seating, ect dies.

and quite frankly what I MAY wind up doing if I am able to get the rifle early enough is get it and leave it stock, with some el-cheapo but stable base and rings, and a "livable" used scope and do a careful barrel break in, and over all get used to the gun and see if it has any ‘quirks” etc, while saving up additional funds for the items I REALLY want to put on it. Thus getting in a good amount of range time (been told “an hour of practice beats any amount of money spent in its stead”), THEN after I’ve got all the items together, puting all the "good stuff" on it.

well let me know what you think, i NEED the input, and as always all input and advice is appreciated.

Sincerely,
Detritus

[Swampy]

Detritus,

Putting a "non-AO" scope on a long range target rifle is like starting a cross country road trip with only a quarter tank of gas.... kinda' limits how far you can go....

For any really precision shooting beyond 100 yds the AO feature on a scope is ESSENTIAL.

Most all fixed objective scopes are set to "zero parallax" at the distance of 100 yds, maybe some are set at 200 but they are rare if they exist at all. If you plan on shooting at 600 (or even 2-300) with a non-AO scope, then you'd better be REAL GOOD about getting the EXACT same head placement behind the eyepiece each and every shot or you WILL be way off on the target.

I've seen some fixed objective scopes that showed as much as 3-4 MOA parallax offset at 600 yds. Remember, the 10 ring on the MR target (600 yd) is only 2 MOA across.

If you don't have the ability to zero the parallax for the distance you are shooting, how can you possibly expect to shoot to the capability of the rifle???

Just my thoughts,
Swampy

[Steve Smith]

Agreed, AO is good news for distance shooting.

I don't know what those stocks are but they sound like hunter stocks. Isn't this going to be a target gun?

[kotengu]

Sounds like you're on the right track - you may want to look at stocks by McMillan if you haven't already.

[Detritus]

I don't know what those stocks are but they sound like hunter stocks. Isn't this going to be a target gun?

Yeah they DO sound like the names a company would give to "sporter" style stocks don't they? actually the "Wood chuck" and "Elk Stalker" are both listed in as "heavy Varmint/tactical" stocks, so based on the testimonials of other shooters who've tried them, the pics i've seen etc, they look to be about what i am looking for. (but as always that's changable)

the wood chuck shown Here (http://www.lockstock.com/cart/webcart.cgi?ZOOMPAGE=YES&TOPPAGE=/products/zoomtop.txt&OCATS=Stockade+Wood+Chuck+Stock,+Painted&ZN=TEXT&CODE=1793577&ITEM=14786) (really crappy pic, too bad they chose to show an all black one.. have seen a MUCH better pic elsewhere though so i know what it really looks like) is the one i'm actually leaning toward the most, and to me seems similar in design to stocks seen on a good many target and varmint rigs (wide forearm, palmswell, etc) , in fact it is VERY close in design to the McMillan "Varmint" stock.

the "Elk Stalker" Here (http://www.lockstock.com/cart/webcart.cgi?ZOOMPAGE=YES&TOPPAGE=/products/zoomtop.txt&OCATS=Stockade+Elk+Stalker+Thumbhole+Model+Stock,+Painted&ZN=TEXT&CODE=1793577&ITEM=14783) is a misleading name, it's a thumbhole style stock made for the Heavy barrel Savage designs, in basic layout, to me, it's like a choate or SVD style "thumbhole" but with more meat and less open space between the "grip" and the butplate.

i first found out about Stockade from two guys over on AR-15.com (Watersniper and TheDrof06) who spoke VERY highly of them, and the Wood Chuck model in particualr. since then i have come across a suprising number (considering tendency of most folks to assume that Choate and teh B&C duramaxx are all that's ot there) of folks who also seem to like the Stockades.

and for $235 and $255 completely finished and drop in fit. it's hard to beat as a decent, affordable step up from the Factory stock. and if it winds up that i fall in love shooting this course of fire etc, i may just decide to save up for a McMillan A-5 :D but for now my skill with a rifle does not justify that level of expenditure for a stock.


oh and on the AO thing, That's about what i thought the answer would be, i just figured i'd ask to make sure.

thanks for all the input guys, this is helping, keep it coming :D

[kotengu]

The guys over HERE (http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php) have done a lot of work cleaning up Savages with pretty good success. If you haven't already - head over there and search some.

[Detritus]

Kotengu, alot of what i post here, I also post over on sniper's hide, (though i have not yet put a copy of THIS thread over there)

Actually Project Ghost Dancer (the "cleaning up" of 3 Savage rifles, using only readily available off teh shelf aftermarket parts) is part of why i'm fairly confident that what i have in mind will be at least decently competitive.

for those of you who have never been to sniper's hide, "Project Ghost Dancer" was/is a rather successful project with the goal of building a rifle that would be competitve in rifle disciplines such as F-class, tactical marklsman (Sniper) matches, and other long range scope gun sports, using only non-custom parts, and as little "gunsmith work" as possible. in other words build a competitve rifle from off the shelf parts, in a manner that the average gun owner could do 95% or more of the work in his own home.

due to inherent accuracy, the Savage 10FP (pre-accu-trigger) in .308 was chosen as the basis for the project.

based on thresults of this project and the reveiws of the gentlemen involved, my confidence that i can build a decent rifle for an occassional 600 yard match, without breaking the bank, is greatly boosted.

it's interesting reading, if you haven't heard of it before i suggest that you take a look (http://www.snipershide.com/ghostdancer/index.html) this page gives a summary of the project, "Ghost Dancer Chronicles" and "G.D. Chronicles II" give more of the actual details of building the guns(s) up

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

D - since you already have been following project GD it would seem as though you have a great handle on things.

One question - you were talking about saving $ to do what you really want to do - what is that?

AO - while they are important and will definately help you - they are by no means "make or break". "Make or break" is understanding and be able to hold for wind.

Low buck stuff that I think is pretty good (as in I have used it)

Ken Farrel base - you need to bed it, but the price is hard to beat.
IOR rings
Loopy VX2 3-9 x 40 with target turrets and a mil dot
Wind River spotter
Subscription to Precision Shooting and or The Accurate Rifle

A guy could go a long way toward being good by developing the right load, bedding the stock that came with the Savage, either getting a trigger job done or doing it themselves, cut and recown the barrel, decent rings and bases, and pretty good glass.

One thought to consider - do the above - sink the money into what counts - the glass. Crappy glass at 100 is one thing - crappy glass at 600+ is a whole new steamin' pile. BTW - someone was talking 'bout used MKIV's for $695.00 over on SH in the "For Sale" area - if I was in the market - I'd strongly consider it. While I know many will rant and rave about a variable -I am shooting a USO fixed 10 - there is something to be said about simplicity.

Good luck

[Detritus]

actually i just recently re-discovered the Ghost Dancer project (hadn't been over to Sniper's Hide since around march) so other than what's in the written accounts at the above link i'm not entirely up to speed on what's happened.

and as stated before i have a very limited budget for guns for the next few years, (to tell the truth till i get re-employed, my "budget" is gathering ideas for after i get work, and a few bricks of .22 ammo every month or two) so i have to sort of "get teh best i can afford, and upgrade as needed/can afford to.

as to what i'd REALLY LOVE to have in the guise of a Savage... a Ghost Dancer type bedded into a McMillan A-5 and have the bedding job done BY McMillan, and put top of the line optics on it.
but that's WAY out of my near future price range and quite frankly i can't see me being able to shoot well enough to tell the difference (score wise, not physically) betwen using something like the Stockade and the A-5, between now and when i the factory barrel bites the dust (or 2 years which ever comes first) Optics is another matter, again it'll be the best i can afford, and i've been eyeing the Leupold Vari-X III 4.5-14x40 AO Tactical as sold by Premeir reticles, it a bit high but it's do-able if i save up and as stated elsewhere i may get a cheapy used unit locally and stick it for the break-in and to be able to use the gun for putterign around till the Loopy arives

I DID look into what i would take to make a factory stock livable for me, and due to my current tool/workshop/skills with.. levels (and i figure it'd cost me a a good portion of the cost of the Stockade, to get a smith to do the re-work of the factory stock) , i'd be better off just putting a decent aftermarket on it.

oh and thinking about the Ghost Dancer.. Anybody from the Houston area know a local smith that knows the Savage well enough to change the recoil lug adn re-headspcae the barell?? (the SSS recoil lug sounds like a good idea but, i know i don't trust myself to unscrew and remount and headspce the barrel, to install teh new lug)

[kotengu]

I dunno about the Savage in particular, but Ed VAndenberg Vandenberg Custom (http://www.vandenbergcustom.com) does excellent work on Remington 700's, AR's and FAL's (among many other things) and is right in your backyard. I don't see why he couldn't do it -

By the way - dumb question (mostly because I'm unfamiliar with the Savages): What exactly is so bad about the factory stock? I've heard that several places before, but never specifics.

[Steve Smith]

The plastic Savage stocks are very weak and therefore twist easily with just hand pressure. You can make a free floated gun into a gun with pressure all the way down one side by just getting into a solid position.

Detritus, there's nothing really wrong with the Savage laminated stocks...have you considered them?



BTW, do you have my book from Randolph Constatine?

[Detritus]

Ok i am familiar with "bedding" a stock, but not with the concept of bedding a scope base...

what exactly in involved (am imagining a trip to the gunsmith for this operation, but if so i'll just have it done same time i get the new recoil lug installed)??

[Detritus]

just realized that i hadn't answered one of Steve's questions to me...

Yes, i've seen and considered the savage laminated stock (like is on the 12BVSS) and for various reasons i'm not entirely comfortable with that stock. i just prefer the hevier weight (that savage factory) synthetic stocks.

[Steve Smith]

I understand. I too would prefer a heavy synthetic over the laminated wood, but I was thinking that the wood from Savage is "free". Anyway, keep in mind that whatever stock you get, you may eventually have it slotted for a rail and you may also want an adjustable cheekpiece and buttplate for it. Sometimes spending the money up front will save you in the long run.

[Detritus]

but I was thinking that the wood from Savage is "free"

i see that point and fully and completely understand it..

Unfortunately this is only true of the 12BVSS
and even as "reduced maintainence" as stainless steel is, i still can't bring myself to buy a bright stainless rifle for the use i have in mind.

something in my brain makes me equate "target rifle" with "matte finnish".

still i might look into how mucxh it would cost to order that stock from Savage, etc..