[heavyshooter]

Ladies and Gents,

I was in the neighborhood gunstore because I was looking for some .357 Magnum ammo for my trail excursions in Colorado cougar country. The store owner told me that I "should not worry about a heavy round because a 130 lbs. couger can be taken with a .22 LR (40gr.). He was being sincere; no joke. I am not as confident as he is and I don't want to be the one to test it! :rolleyes: I want something that is going to bring a cat down ASAP. When hiking in cougar country would a 357 mag., 158 gr flatnose do the job (I am using a Ruger SP101 3" barrel)? If not, what do you recommend. And do you think the .22 LR legend is true? ;)

Heavy

[chriso]

i know a guide who has taken down a decent size black bear self defense of course with a 22lr unloaded on its head 2 made it through the eye socket you can take mostly anything with a 22lr or magnum but you will need great precision. Are you worried about weight? a 357 magnum would certainly do the job. there are many pistols that would suite you fine but what are you really looking for and what are you comfortable with is the question?

[chriso]

suit*

[loneviking]

Tell him he can gamble with his life, but you won't! A 357 isn't that hard to carry and it's a whole lot more comforting to know that you have those big, heavy rounds instead of those tiny .22's. Yes, I've seen butchers put down big bulls with a 22 magnum, but my philosophy with dangerous animals is 'the heavier the caliber the better!'.

[heavyshooter]

chriso,

I am really happy with the SP101. It is built like a steel ball, but it is small enough to reside on my hip without notice. .357 Mag. should handle anything I would likely run into (coyote, cougar), but having never shot a cougar, I am not aquainted with the instinctive/adrenaline reaction they may have with their last breath. My wife is often with me on these hikes so I want a one shot stopper. I was considering the flatnose or FMJ because I want good penetration on head and lung shots. My concern is more in reference to the ammunition than the gun or caliber. Maybe 200 gr. is better than 158 gr. and maybe the hydroshock is better than the FMJ. I don't know.

p.s. - It sounds like the guide took all head shots at the bear. Goodnight! How many rounds did that take? I'll have to take your word for it becasue I do not intend to test it. :)

[heavyshooter]

loneviking,

AMEN!!!

[bestseller92]

Lots of TREED cougars have been dispatched with .22s, but if you need to shoot a cougar to stop it from having you for brunch, pack something more authoritative.

[Kind of Blued]

As is always the case with the "insert caliber for insert animal" questions, the answer is, with proper shot placement, yes. Of course, there are many better stoppers than .22LR.

[chriso]

not sure didn't ask how many rounds it took but the 22 i always see him using is a henry lever action. yeah 357 magnum is more than adequate a semi wadcutter will stop it in its tracks!!! haha ive heard from another member that the federal hydrashocks dont expand as well as other hollowpoint/defense ammunitions and he said he did extensive research on it i dont remember the other ammunition he recommended. As long as you can shoot the gun good i wouldnt be to worried i dont know about colorado but many of people have told me stuff like "you wont see a mountain lion" or what not and blah blah but 3 years ago my australian shepard treed a massive mountain lion and it was sizing him up getting ready to pounce on him when my father laid it down with a 300 winchester mag. I have had plenty of encounters with mountain lions not cougars. and for that reason i carry a 357 always bought hydrashock but im not sure about that ammunition anymore.

[RandyB]

A .22 would work, esp dispatching an animal. However will it stop an animal during an attack? .22LR is regularly used to kill hogs, cattle, etc. which weigh in much more than a cougar. However those critters are in a pen and not going anywhere. Personally I'd stick with the .357.

[wheelgunslinger]

I have had plenty of encounters with mountain lions not cougars.
A mountain lion IS a cougar. :rolleyes:

And, if a Cougar/Mountain Lion/Puma/Painter/Panther/etc is pouncing on you, you won't have time to make a carefully placed shot.

In the good old days, the trappers in these parts used black powder rifles to wipe felis concolor completely out until they couldn't find any more to kill.

[PTK]

I tend to carry a .22wmr revolver, .357 (SP101), and my FN USG 5.7x28 when in the woods. Sometimes I'll substitute my XD45 for the SP101, but I feel a lot better with HEAVY .357 loads for anything that wants to eat me than I do about .45 ACP.

[Drgong]

While offically there are no Catamounts (yet another name for a mountain lion) in NC, I have seen there tracks, and if one wants to make you its dinner, you want to get it down, NOW. .22 might kill it, but it will have enough time to kill you too.

[meef]

:cool:

Be prepared for an influx of people who will tell you that the .22 LR will take anything that moves, or ever has moved, on the face of the planet - including a tyrannosaurus rex in rut.

[Blakenzy]

^^^ yep...

I know for a fact that local cattle thieves take 500kg steers with a .22LR, so yea, a cougar can bite the big one if you place that little slug where it counts. The question is can you do it before your throat is in his mouth?

[Kleanbore]

How do you know he wasn't joking? :D

I'm not an expert but I'm with bestseller and Drgong.

Years ago an older cousin who lived in Estes Park showed me a brightly plated pocket Browning in .25 ACP that he kept in his car. I had once fired one of those and couldn't hit with it very well at all, and I never had any use for the cartridge. To make conversation, I asked why he kept it with him. He replied "we have mountain lions around here, and you never know when you'll encounter one at night".

I know that my immediate laughter was not really very polite, but I could not believe he was serious. He insisted that he was!

[spwenger]

...when I lived in Douglas AZ, A friend asked a local man who is licensed as a cougar hunter and hunting guide what firearm he recommended for a person who would want to go on a guided cougar hunt. Warner Glenn's answer - minimum, a .38 Special out of a carbine.

(If you care to check out Warner's credentials, I suspect that they will hold more water than those of the gun-shop owner.)

[Pilot]

I live in the Denver area also, and when I go up into the foothills and mountains, I carry a Ruger GP100 4 inch .357 Mag. Its a great woods gun and would take care of Mountain Lions as long as I did my part. Yes, I sometimes carry a .22, just for plinking, but more often the .357.

I'd rather have a .22 than nothing, it would at least, most likely, scare the cat away from the noise.

[444]

I know 3-4 guys that are really serious about lion hunting. They have the dogs, the horses and all the stuff that goes with it (horse trailer, truck to pull it with..............). It is their primary source of entertainment.

They all carry .22 handguns.
If they hunt together they take one .22 handgun between them.

[The Lone Haranguer]

If you've chased down and treed it with dogs, get close enough to shoot it and wait for it to bleed out, sure, you can kill the cougar with that .22. They are frequently hunted this way. If it is actively engaged in trying to eat you, you may not want to wait that long. :uhoh:

A .357 Magnum should be adequate. (As would a 9mm and up autoloader, but this is the revolver section, so I won't mention those.;)) Even a big one only weighs about as much as a medium-sized human, and they are not particularly thick-skinned or heavy-boned. Your biggest challenge is going to be hitting it in the first place (assuming it is not already on top of and chewing on you). Their vital organs are not a very big target, the head even smaller, and they move fast.

[MMCSRET]

In Montana and Idaho the guys that run Mountain Lions with dogs as often as not carry 22's.

[PTK]

All this talk of .22lr for cougars, I have to ask... what barrel length? Are we talking about 3-4" barrels, or the 6" or longer barrels? I could see SOME utility in the longer barrels, but I'd sure as heck want something bigger as a backup.

[Water-Man]

Better stick with your .357mag and load it with 180gr.

[bestseller92]

Just as a sidenote, Louis L'amour wrote once that, during his extensive ramblings through the southwest, doing research for his books, he used to carry a .22 revolver. Then he had a close call with a cougar and started carrying a .357 instead.

[bflobill_69]

Bring your .357 and load .357... You get one shot at a mountain lion - make it count!

Bflobill_69

[OregonJohnny]

I'm of the opinion that a healthy cougar would be easily discouraged by 1 or 2 direct hits from a .22, as long as he is not already on top of you trying to make a killing bite to your neck.

Now, an unhealthy, old, injured or rabid cougar might have just a bit more desperation to get some easy food. And this is most likely the type of cougar that would come after a full grown adult human. I saw a show recently on the Discovery channel about a rabid cougar that slowly walked up to a boy in broad daylight surrounded by the boy's family and just gently put a paw on the boy's shoulder and then put his mouth over the boy's head. Screaming and throwing things and panic from all the nearby adults did nothing to scare it off. An uncle grabbed his Glock (looked like a 9mm from the interview footage) from his truck and killed it. My woods gun in the wilds of northwest Oregon is a Ruger GP100 .357 loaded with 180-grain solids. It will easily handle self-defense duties from the 4 dangerous critters we have here: black bears, cougars, rabid coyotes or feral dogs, and meth-addicts. I could carry my Redhawk .44 magnum but it's not necessary.

If enough research was done, you could probably find documented cases of almost all animals on the North American continent being killed by a .22 caliber firearm. But for many of these creatures, including the cougar, the .357 is a safer choice.

[Virginian]

Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell shot elephants extremely successfully with a .257 Rigby, but you can bet if I ever go to take on one I will be packing something just a mite heavier. I'm not really scared, it's just that I might not be quite as steady with several tons of bad news bearing down on me as old 'Karamojo' was.
Mr. Ruark coined a useful phrase; "Use Enough Gun".

[ranger335v]

"Discouraged" by a 22 RF? Perhaps.

One old African Prohunter was once asked what it took to kill an elephant. The PH answered that it could be done with a razor blade if you could find a sufficently patient elephant.

Guess you could eventually kill a cougar with a .22 too, IF he was patient enough. But, it's not for me, not while my .44 M still works anyway.

[surjimmy]

Did'nt read the rest of the posts, so I hope I'm not repeating anything. He's CRAZY!!!!!! I shot a pit bull at about 12yards with a 10/22 using stingers. Hit him right under the left eye. He fell in his tracks, got up and ran off, he came back later that night with no ill effect, never died. (he was my nephew's dog and was loose and my mother wanted him put down so he would'nt bite someone). 357mag or as bigger, why take the chance.

[rswartsell]

The good ol' boys who hunt Felis concolor with a single .22 handgun must have their reason. There is a great deal of "sport" (and adrenaline I assume) to hunting dangerous game with handguns of lesser caliber. I have heard some bold stories about hunting wild boar with handguns. I make no judgment about this other than to point out that the OP was apparently talking about DEFENSE if BEING HUNTED by old Felis. Or simply unintentionally putting the animal in a bad spot.

Unless the poster is interested in challenging himself or making the encounter "more sporting" he has absolutely no reason to limit his weapon of choice to the .22. Old Felis has long had a reputation for shyness regarding humans and elusive behavior. However encroachment of natural habitat is rapidly changing the behavior of these animals (i.e. Chicago Police very recently had to put one down in Chicago proper).

If a wounded cat of this size wants to make an issue out of his survival, I can't think of a worse nightmare. The Chicago specimen went 130 pounds. For God's sake use the magnum and leave the .22 to those that are actively seeking the experience.

[jaydubya]

"You get one shot at a mountain lion - make it count!"

Many of you seem to assume you would see the mountain lion before it attacked you. Why? They are ambush killers, creeping up behind their prey and springing upon it. Their favorite food is deer, a very fast, very good looker and listener -- indeed far better than any human. On another website, I mentioned that east Indian woodcutters wear masks on the backs of their heads so tigers would think the woodcutters were looking backwards. I went on to suggest that the best defense against mountain lions is a halloween mask worn on the back of the head, with a snubby backup. I was gratified with the response.

Cordially, Jack

[mgregg85]

The store owner told me that I "should not worry about a heavy round because a 130 lbs. couger can be taken with a .22 LR (40gr.).

That same store owner probably carries an NAA mini in .22 short as his one and only self defense piece because "thats all you need against a lousy little human".
http://www.naaminis.com/pix/short.jpg
Thats not what I would want as a primary piece against humans, or cougars(in .22 lr or magnum). Not that its a bad gun but it isn't adequate at all.

The only .22lr I would even think about carrying against a damn cougar would be an American-180.
http://www.fotydostrony.yoyo.pl/American%20180.jpg

[jughead2]

if a cougar is as hard to kill as feral house cats forget about the .22

[chriso]

i thought cougars were black my mistake.

[rswartsell]

.357 180 gr. Cor Bon for me.

https://dakotaammo.net/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_53&products_id=80

[CajunBass]

What difference does it make? YOU have a .357. Use it. Anything you can kill with a 22 will be just as dead with a .357.

[jim147]

Your 158's should work as would any common personal defense round. Just make sure you can get to your weapon easily.

[Ala Dan]

I think the .22 LR would be OK for use on a 130 lb. cougar; but of course
other calibers would be more suitable, such as the .357 magnum for those
shots over 50 yards.

[rswartsell]

I was cruising the web for more info on ammunition selection for your purposes and came across this article that will do more to answer the question you posed to the shop owner. I posted in favor of the Cor Bon 180 gr hunting load due to my familiarity and it's proven success in my 6" S & W 686 on deer.

Read this article and then as Jim 147 says, most any defense oriented round might work but you will have food for thought regarding MAXIMIZING your selection. Keep in mind a wild cat is NOT the same as a human felon.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/OtherHandguns.htm


Go to this link and then choose "A Look at Cor Bon 125 gr DPX Ammunition" and read the write up. He discusses the issues pertaining to differences between Hunting and Defense ammunition and talks about the 1 shot stop.

[Colt46]

If he's mid leap and you don't want to lose any appendages, I'd prefer something a little heavier.

[rswartsell]

Your SP101 is not the same as my 6" 686 and you are not hunting the cougar, blood trails mean nothing to you.

As you say you are looking for an immediately disabling shot first time. Should you think about second shots? The recoil of the 180gr Cor Bon will be STOUT to say the least in your SP101.

You do need to think about separation of the bullet components and the effect of striking bone or over penetration. Without over thinking it you need a round that will be immediately effective and that you can shoot comfortably enough for follow up.

If the event can occur at twilight or darker you must consider the extreme muzzle flash from a full house magnum through a 3" bbl. You don't want to be temporarily blinded by your first shot. A wounded animal would have enough advantages to go to a wrestling match in a hurry. In such a case I don't favor your chances. I'm doing this because I sense that you wanted originally to think through ammo selection before the distraction of the .22 came up. Good to do now rather than after.

Many wise posters to this thread have favored keeping the ammo you are already familiar with as ballisticaly sufficient. There is much to be said for that. In the case of dangerous encounters and considering your weapon I would think well and experiment so that you don't opt for thunder and lightning over effectiveness.

[scrat]

wouldnt even think about it. i have several .22lr rifles and handguns. They are great for economical shooting and target practice. I hope i am never faced with that situation. but if i was i hope i was holding my Ruger Mark II target pistol and all i could say is i would be aiming for the mid section under the ribs and i would empty the magazine. as i know it would probably just bounce of the ribs or any other bones.

Otherwise you wouldnt catch me up there unless i had one of my .44s or my 45Colt as those fine pieces will shoot through the bone without any forgiveness.

[wyocarp]

This is crazy. The whole idea of shooting a lion with a .22 is ridiculous. Why would anyone take the smallest caliber he could think of carrying to dispatch a very dangerous animal. Do you know of the strength of these animals? I do hunt lions and bears and if anything, I error on the side of way too much gun, but isn't that the better side to be on?

I have been charged by mountain lions. I encountered four lions once a few years back and had two of them charge straight at me. Now, because I was bear hunting with my .500's, I had bullets that weren't for thin skinned animals. I put three rounds in one of them, which I was told by a state biologist, that all three rounds went clear through with one passing through the heart, one passing through a lung, and a third through a shoulder.

My last shot on him was when he was right at my feet as he was coming up a very steep hill at me. People can talk about shot placement all they want and on a lion in a tree that might be all fine and good, but when they are running at you, shot placement is hard to get when you have seconds to react.

By the way, three decent shots, although they didn't hit the brain or spine, didn't stop the cat. He mostly bled out over the next 60 feet that he ran after brushing by my leg.

I would not suggest a .22.

[scrat]

Wow Wyocarp amazing. amazing. Yep i guess thats why if im carrying a handgun i would not be carrying anything smaller than a .44.

[wyocarp]

I'm of the opinion that a healthy cougar would be easily discouraged by 1 or 2 direct hits from a .22, as long as he is not already on top of you trying to make a killing bite to your neck.


This is not an opinion with experience.

[rswartsell]

So between Wyocarp's post and mine, you are looking for a round not only with sufficient power, but with a bullet mounted that is designed for the anatomy of a cougar. You will need to be able to quickly follow up and hit what you are looking at.

Experiment and practice. Find the most load with the best bullet that you can reflexively hit with again and again. (In YOUR gun). You are seeking a round that will expand quickly, and retain it's original weight. Extreme penetration is valuable for a quartering shot on a moose, too much penetration without perfect shot placement in an adrenaline and reflex situation and Wyocarp will attest, things might get interesting.

[CSA 357]

I Would Shop Somewhere Else!

[Bearhands]

"I Would Shop Somewhere Else!"

and....... listen to someone who has been on the trail and encountered something larger than a chipmunk.

I'm tryin to imagine a 130 pound turkey, or grouse, or squirrel and using a 22..... :eek:

I kinda think the round you use should be at least as long or longer than the fangs of the animal. :rolleyes:

[Master Blaster]

Yes a .22lr will kill a cougar dead as a doornail, no question.
About an hour after it rips you to shreds,:D

So to recap, cougar attacks you and yours you immediately shoot it with your .22lr, the cougar rips you to shreds, leaves your dead body on the trail, and slinks off to its lair to die.

:evil:

Personally I would carry a much larger caliber, like say a .44 magnum or a .357 mag insted of the .22lr, because I would rather skip the part where it rips me to shreds and have it die right away.

[Diggers]

:) Hee hee! Another what cal. for blank animal in the woods! YAY!

For Mountain Lion defense a .22 in not appropriate, for hunting with dogs and such a .22 is fine.

.357 is a better choice.

The ammo used for a Mountain Lion seems VERY secondary to the caliber.

This is NOT a very large animal, average size is that of a small to med sized human, so pretty much any .357 ammo is going to penetrate to the vital areas.

Buzz kill reality check

Unless the animal is rabid (and the disease has progressed to the point where the animal has gone crazy, like the instance OregonJohnny sited) it is VERY unlikely you will ever see a Mt. Lion coming for you if it sees you as prey.

I saw a very interesting show on Mt. Lion attacks (on Discovery I think if you are interested), one thing all the attacks had in common was that the victims NEVER saw it coming.

That is THE trade mark of Mt. Lion predation.

This is not to say having a gun is pointless. I'm only pointing out that if you do have a chance to use it, it will most likely be from UNDER the Mt. Lion!!

Something to consider.

[rswartsell]

As true as that is Dig and believe me I don't dispute you, there is still no reason not to look into the wide variety of .357 available and select what you can with confidence do the most damage with.

Secondary? Yes.

Irrelevant? No.

Original Post -"I was looking for some .357 Magnum ammo for my trail excursions in Colorado cougar country."

[bestseller92]

It is true that the cougar is an ambush animal, and you might never see one before it attacks.

Then again, you MIGHT, and I'd rather have an effective weapon in that eventuality.

[Waldo Pepper]

Not sure I would feel safe in cougar country with my FN Five Seven or my S&W model 48 WMR, I would want at least a 38 Special minimum. Since I have a G29 (10mm) that would be my choice for hiking in black bear or cougar country, or maybe my DW 15-2 357 if I was actually hunting.

[twoclones]

If the event can occur at twilight or darker you must consider the extreme muzzle flash from a full house magnum through a 3" bbl. You don't want to be temporarily blinded by your first shot.

Thanks for pointing that out.
I work in remote wilderness locations and am shopping for a new revolver for protection from large predators. On the occasions when I camp on the job site, muzzle flash could be a real issue.

We {the dog and I} have either heard, smelled or found tracks and skat for lions, wolves and bears during a single work shift. A 22LR might be useful if I needed to kill and eat my dog while dragging my broken self back to the truck after being mauled... Otherwise, I want more fire-power.

Butch

[Jeff F]

A .38 spl will do a number on a mountain kitty. They are not all that tough when it comes to taken lead. A .357 with 158 grain swc bullets would work to stop one real fast. I have friends that hunt them and they kill them with .22's or .22mags. hunting them and getting hunted by them are two different things so yea I would carry bigger then a .22.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Okay I own a 22lr revolver,I also own a 38spl revolver,if I'm bumming out in the woods where cougars are known to be I take the 38.

If I'm target shooting out there I shoot the 22,but still carry the 38 just in case.

A 22 is fine for small game and thin skinned pop cans but not a large wild dog let alone a Predator like a mountian lion.

[mp340dude]

I have spent quite a bit of time in Montana where fishing usually brings about fresh cat tracks. If you saw the size of those feet you would want to carry a .454 Casull. I carry a S&W 686 with real hot heavy loads. And I still watch the banks as much as my dry fly. The cats scare me more than the bears. They don't call them mountain LIONs for nothing....

Cheers

[Jeff F]

This is crazy. The whole idea of shooting a lion with a .22 is ridiculous. Why would anyone take the smallest caliber he could think of carrying to dispatch a very dangerous animal

When they are hunting they don't want to make a big hole in the fur, they want the pelt. They also do eat the meat.

[OregonJohnny]

From wyocarp: "This is not an opinion with experience."

Thank you for further explaining why my post was an opinion, as I stated, and not a fact or anything from personal experience. You'll get awfully tired if you try and point out all the opinions without real world experience on THR...

You have shot a cougar, and I have not. From your experience, 3 hits from a .500 caliber gun won't stop a cougar. So, why are we even discussing .357s and .44s?

[444]

Get the .357.
Put a lot of thought into which one, what load you are going to carry, and what holster to buy. Game various senarios in your mind....................
I realize that is the purpose of the thread to begin with.



However, look at the vastly different answers you get from people who have shot mountain lions or are close friends with people who shoot mountain lions as opposed to the people speculating about shooting mountain lions.
I'm just saying.


"When they are hunting they don't want to make a big hole in the fur, they want the pelt. They also do eat the meat."
Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.


FWIW: When I am out bumming around the woods, I carry a S&W Model 29 with a 3" barrel in a Threepersons holster by El Paso Saddelry.
Most of this bumming around is done in areas where there actually are mountain lions.
I have never seen one and am pretty certain I never will. If one stalked me for dinner, I am also pretty certain I would never know it. I would be walking along, see that light at the end of the tunnel............. A mountain lion doesn't hunt like an enraged Cape Buffalo. It uses stealth and is very good at it.
I carry the .44 because I bought it for that purpose and it has a cool holster. I actually bought it to carry deer hunting with the hope that someday I might have the opportunity to put down my rifle and plug one with the pistol. So, I was thinking more along the line of shooting big game animals when I bought it.

[Diggers]

As true as that is Dig and believe me I don't dispute you, there is still no reason not to look into the wide variety of .357 available and select what you can with confidence do the most damage with.

Secondary? Yes.

Irrelevant? No.


True rswartsell, but it seems pretty simple, pick whatever full power .357 that you fancy. I think pretty much ANY .357 is going to kill a Mt. Lion at point blank........you just have to hit it.

THEN practice shooting over your shoulder at something on your back as you are face down in the dirt. THAT is the real trick here. :D

[444]

THEN practice shooting over your shoulder at something on your back as you are face down in the dirt. THAT is the real trick here.



That's funny right there.
I don't care who you are.

[cliffy]

A Professional Hunting Guide from Canada's Yukon told me all he uses for Mountain Lion Hunting is a .223 Remington, which produces 1400 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. I'd rather carry a .243 Winchester @ 2100 ft/lbs of energy. I should think any pistol that has an equivalent ft/lbs of force between 1400 and 2100 would suffice against any PUMA going. This scenaro would bring the Ruger Alaskan .454 Casull into positive play. A .22 LR, even with the most potent (CCI Velocitor) ammo seems a bit light on firepower to assist one's continued survival against a 150 pound wildcat. All big cats are unpredictable, and often consider people as a food source. Shooting at big cats keep them in line, but stop shooting at them and they gain boldness. They simply don't fear an unarmed human. Cliffy

[heavyshooter]

"Just as a sidenote, Louis L'amour wrote once that, during his extensive ramblings through the southwest, doing research for his books, he used to carry a .22 revolver. Then he had a close call with a cougar and started carrying a .357 instead." -- bestseller92


I had a similar experince that led to the same conclusion. We carried the Kimber LifeAct Guardian Angel pepper spray and then we saw a cat about 400 yards away and I felt as though the pepper spray would be little more than seasoning for his meal. After getting back to the car I made a mental note; the Ruger comes on all hikes.

Coincidentally, the next day I was watching one of those "When animals attack" shows and they showed a couple that was attacked by a mother grizzly that was protecting her cub and the husband distracted the bear away from his wife so he could "incapacitate her with bear [pepper] spray." After he sprayed the bear, she turned and attacked his wife again. At that point my Kimber LifeAct seemed even more ridiculous.

[heavyshooter]

"Did'nt read the rest of the posts, so I hope I'm not repeating anything. He's CRAZY!!!!!! I shot a pit bull at about 12yards with a 10/22 using stingers. Hit him right under the left eye. He fell in his tracks, got up and ran off, he came back later that night with no ill effect, never died." -- surjimmy


GOODNIGHT!!! You have reminded me of something that settles the matter for me. When my brother was eight he was attacked by a 100 lbs. Black Labrador Retriever. My father chased the dog home and shot him under his left eye with a 22LR. His owner never took him to the vet and he lived for another three years. I believe he died of old age! :what: He never even lost sight in his eye! He wasn't wild, rabid, starving, and until my father shot him, he wasn't wounded! On the off chance that I am attacked by a wild, rabid, starving, wounded cat, I want to put him out of my misery. This 22LR thing is seeming like a bad idea. :scrutiny:

[rondog]

Man, shooting dogs in the face with a .22 is just wrong. If you need to dispatch a bad dog, use enough gun to do it humanely willya?

AFA the lions, all I have are .45's filled with 230gr. Ranger SXT's, so that would have to do.

[Jeff F]

Thread Hijack On:

I carry the .44 because I bought it for that purpose and it has a cool holster. I actually bought it to carry deer hunting with the hope that someday I might have the opportunity to put down my rifle and plug one with the pistol. So, I was thinking more along the line of shooting big game animals when I bought it.


444
You defiantly have to try hunting with a handgun. I have taken a few mule deer and quite a few wild hogs with sidearms and it is the best adrenaline rush there is. All my shots have been mostly under 25 yards and some as close as ten feet. For a few years I put a rifle down all together

Thread Hijack Off:

[Big Boomer]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Luck aside, my friends dad was out trapping and had his ruger 10/22 with him there behind him was a cougar stalking him. He unloaded all 25 rounds into him and only with the last shot did the thing lay down and die about 5 feet from him. The shots were slow and placed.

He would shoot a couple of rounds and the thing would stop, growl and keep coming. If it had decided to actually run towards him and attack he would have been done for. The shots all impacted head, neck, and chest. Not a single miss.

He no longer only carries a 22 with him. Now he carries a 22 pistol and a minimum of a 243. He actually had the 243 in the truck but it was about 50 yards away at the time.

[heavyshooter]

"You have shot a cougar, and I have not. From your experience, 3 hits from a .500 caliber gun won't stop a cougar. So, why are we even discussing .357s and .44s?" -- OregonJohnny


I was thinking the same thing. Three rounds from a .500 is making my .357 Mag question seem futile. Maybe I will have to hike with a patriot missile. :)

[chriso]

have you considered one of those 410 revolvers? that seems like it would be a good cougar gun. But i would go with the 357 more controllable than 44 mag and you already have one correct? and are familiar with it to boot.

[Jst1mr]

I'm sure you could kill an elephant with a .22 if you could hang on his ear long enough and empty enough magazines into his eye/ear/whatever...but why? A high-cap 9MM or wheelgun .38 and up will do the cougar justice-IF you see him, and IF you can shoot straight. PS - they will usually try to clamp on to your face or neck to suffocate you, so save a few rounds and wear ear plugs !!!!!! I have also found that cats hate to be scratched near the base of their tail...if you're desperate!

[Jst1mr]

I'm sure you could kill an elephant with a .22 if you could hang on his ear long enough and empty enough magazines into his eye/ear/whatever...but why? A high-cap 9MM or wheelgun .38 and up will do the cougar justice-IF you see him, and IF you can shoot straight. PS - they will usually try to clamp on to your face or neck to suffocate you, so save a few rounds and wear ear plugs !!!!!! I have also found that cats hate to be scratched near the base of their tail...if you're desperate!

[Loomis]

Well, you know how those macho special agent kinda guys like to say they can kill you with a ball point pen, or other such seemingly harmless objects? I suppose you could do the same with a cougar and not even bother with a firearm at all...after years of training that is.

But why?

Hunting an animal from a safe distance, and stopping that same animal while in mid charge for your throat are two different things.

You could probably walk up to a buffalo that is being kept busy by 6 large angry dogs and shove a sharp stick into it's ribs and kill it. With a little luck. A matador can do it with a puny little sword and no dogs at all.

So I guess if I was going to defend myself against big cats with a 22 LR, I'd want at least 2 very very tough dogs along with me to keep it off me long enough to take careful aim. Or...if no dogs of required toughness are available, then I guess I'd want a matador along with me on my hike instead.

Know any good matadors with cat experience?

Me either. But if I ever meet one, I'll send him your way.

[rswartsell]

heavyshooter

One factor of Wyocarp's related experience is something called over penetration. Reread his post and he points out that his hunting loads had bullets not for thin skinned animals. He was hunting bear with a hand cannon and used bullets that would not easily expand and dump their energy, but keep on moving against very heavy resistance (bear body). A lot of the tremendous energy exerted by the round was NOT absorbed by Mr. Kitty but still motivating the bullet well on the other side. A bullet that expands in its target and stays there has gone from whatever energy bestowed by the cartridge to zero. That energy went somewhere and Mr. Kitty would be the recipient.

I believe his experience was also unusual. Don't think many cougars will take 3 S & W .500 and keep moving but such is possible.

-.410 revolver? With .45 Colt maybe but .410 shotgun round? Better be a slug and 3" magnum and I still don't like it. .410 is kind of a lightweight.

[Brasso]

I've personally never seen a couger, but one was just recently hit by a car here in Alabama. It weighed 260 lbs. Granted, this one was a tad on the large side. Just food for thought. I wouldn't feel safe with a .22.

[mgregg85]

I guess there is another .22 I'd carry, the PLR-16 with a Beta C-mag.

[shooterfromtexas]

Sure it might, but a 357mag will do a better job.

[TallPine]

You can cut a 24" tree with a 12" chainsaw, but it takes a while ... ;)

[/analogy]

[rswartsell]

http://s441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/rswartsell/?action=view&current=Felis2.jpg

http://s441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/rswartsell/?action=view&current=Felis1.jpg

While I would be quite content to observe from safety of my desk chair, you gotta admit Felis Concolor is a magnificent brute.

http://s441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/rswartsell/?action=view&current=Felis1.jpg

http://s441.photobucket.com/albums/qq136/rswartsell/?action=view&current=Felis2.jpg

[444]

If you bore three 1/2" holes clear through an animal, who cares if you get any expansion of the bullets ?

[rswartsell]

The guy that gets mauled by an animal with 3 neat holes bored clear through it.

[DWARREN123]

Yes but I would not want to be the one doing it.

[rswartsell]

Me either, did you read Wyocarp's previous post on this thread? Bet he wasn't overly happy about it himself.

[testar77]

Yes just like a small stone out of a sling will kill a giant, but you better hope like this example that you have some divine assistance :neener:

[22-rimfire]

I've never had the reason or opportunity to hunt or shoot a cougar/mountain lion with a 22LR. That said, if that is all I had with me, then 22LR it would be.

But as a conservative thinking man, I would lean toward a revolver in 357 mag. I think any of the normal self defense loads and bullets would work just fine.

I would most likely be packing either a 3" Ruger GP100 or a 4" Smith Model 57 if I were hiking in country where I had a concern for defense against a cougar or black bear encounter that I could not avoid without shooting. Why? Cause that is what I got. :)

[mljdeckard]

You could get VERY, VERY, VERY lucky.

A cougar is the strongest cat in the world for its weight. They are VERY agile and crafty. If one was lunging or charging at me, I think it would be luck to clear the holster with ANY handgun. This would be the ultimate stress-fire test, with high stakes of losing.

I'm remembering the look on Luke's face when the torpedoes actually went into the vent and destroyed the Death Star. THAT's how I would feel if I stopped a cougar with a .22

[jaydubya]

Digger said: "I saw a very interesting show on Mt. Lion attacks (on Discovery I think if you are interested), one thing all the attacks had in common was that the victims NEVER saw it coming.

I will add to that the rest of what I posted on that other thread. At a golf course I often play, next to a wooded pond but surrounded by homes, a golfer happened to turn around and almost had a heart attack. A mountain lion kitten, estimated age 4 months, was a yard behind him, about to spring. The deputies had to shoot it. Along that line, several joggers up in the next county have been killed or badly injured by mountain lions who jumped them from the rear.

Moral of the story: you most likely will not know there is a mountain lion in the same county with you until it is too late. Your best defense, I was not kidding in my previous post, is a halloween mask on the back of your head. The caliber of your weapon, be it .22 or 105mm, will not matter if a lion has you by the neck.

Cordially, Jack

[publiuss]

If I'm just knocking around in the woods in cougar country, I want a minimum of a 357swc. What I would feel comfortable with is a 41mag 210swc, 44mag 250grswc, 45colt 300grswc. I prefer the Colt out of a Ruger but any of the last three, 41,44,45, will do the job. 357 will probably work but I personally want big bullet against something that is in his house can move quiter than you outrun you, and finally EAT you. I recind my earlier vote for the 45colt, I want a 870 full of slugs and 1 buck.

[heavyshooter]

...I assume that the idea of bear [pepper] spray is ridiculous to all of you? Honestly, if you cannot take a cat with a .22LR, why would you confront a grizzlie with OC spray.

[loneviking]

There are several things you can do when hiking in mountain lion country:

1. Go armed.

2. Take a dog, and not a little one. I usually take my doberman along with me. Their eyes, ears and nose are better than mine and can alert you to trouble.

3. Stop every so often (I stop every time the trail puts me into new terrain or scenery) , rest on a good hiking staff for a few moments and check all around you--especially your six. This is always a good idea as other problems can crop up. I've seen trees fall, boulders come rolling down a hill, even rockslides suddenly happen.

4. Carry a pack. Have water, matches, food, knife and a few gauze bandages with tape. If kitty lands on your back, the pack might slow him down and give you a chance to get away by dropping the pack. If injured, a well stocked pack can mean life or death.

I've hiked for years in the Sierras and I've seen Mountain Lions---usually on the run or headed over the next hill. Bears are usually more trouble than a Cougar.

[lloveless]

Loneviking has the right idea-be aware of your surroundings. This is true whether you're in the city or in the country. The size of the dog doesn't matter, it is the size of the fight in the dog. A 7 lb jack russell is credited with killing a 45 lb coyote who kills for a living.
Food for thought. I enjoy the companionship of my shelties and kuvasz. I still hike armed usually a .357 sp101 3 inch or a 2.5 inch charter 2000 .44 spcl.

[batmann]

I have to agree with a lot of the posts so far. If you have a .357, why in the world would you want to take a .22.
If you are likely to encounter a Couger, you are almost as likely to encounter a Bear.
Now your question should be, what kind of ammo do I need for my .357!

[wyocarp]

Rethinking this. Why waste gunpowder? I personally know someone here in Wyoming that killed an antelope with a BB gun. He was trying to get the antelope out of his yard and shot it in the chest. Apparently, they have a soft spot and when shot there it leads straight to the heart as they dug the BB out of the heart of the antelope.

Maybe skip the .22, and just buy a Remington pump BB gun like this fellow used and find a good spot to shot a lion.

[wyocarp]

Thank you for further explaining why my post was an opinion, as I stated, and not a fact or anything from personal experience. You'll get awfully tired if you try and point out all the opinions without real world experience on THR...

You have shot a cougar, and I have not. From your experience, 3 hits from a .500 caliber gun won't stop a cougar. So, why are we even discussing .357s and .44s?


Well, first of all. I was not carrying my .500's for lions. I was bear hunting. I would use different bullets if what I was going to encounter was only a lion. My hobby is calling bears so I want hard hitting calibers. One bear that I called last week pulled up when I stood up at about 7 feet when I stood up.

The one lion that had three .500 rounds put through him with the last one being put into him just right in front of me and brushed by my leg was beginning to visibly be dragging probably just about 15 feet beyond me and was down by about 60 feet beyond. Even if he had attacked me, he would have been very weak. There was an incredible blood trail.

The game and fish kept asking me if I thought they were going to attack me. Idiots! The lions were running straight at me and they had the ability to run in any other direction. I wasn't able to ask their intention. I do think that they were hurting as they went by me though.

Bullet construction if just for lions would be better if they would expand. Most people should not be thinking that they will have the opportunity to get many rounds off either. In this instance, I was fortunate that they were having to climb a very steep hill which gave me a little more time. It was steep enough that when the game and fish officer and I went back there, we both slipped onto our rears while going down the hill.