C&R Application - Visit from the ATF?


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Big Bore
August 26, 2008, 12:39 PM
I submitted my application for a C&R license a few weeks ago. Today I received a call from an ATF agent who wants to stop by to make sure I am familiar with federal firearms laws. Is this typical?

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tinygnat219
August 26, 2008, 12:44 PM
Pretty untypical.

My application was approved after 2 months or so and I just got the license in the mail, along with all of the legislation and laws.

Why an ATF agent wants to meet with you is just... wierd.

You list your location as Washington, DC. If so, even with the Heller victory, I am not sure C&R FFLs are allowed. This might be a reason why the ATF wants to speak to you.

I'd see your attorney, and then call and see what his concerns are, with your attorney present. If necessary for meeting, then agree to meet with him at your attorney's office. No need to let him into the domicile.

Soybomb
August 26, 2008, 12:50 PM
I've heard reports from people in NY that have had visits too. I'd probably ask if it was necessary since they rarely visit C&R holders.

AJ Dual
August 26, 2008, 12:52 PM
Yes and no.

It's not common for a C&R applicant to have anybody contact them personally at all in most of the U.S. the whole thing is handled through the mail.

There's anecdotal evidence here at THR and elsewhere that New York state C&R applicants get an ATF visit. Then many of them had the inspector/agent asking them all these questions about their 01 commercial FFL which they did not apply for, and are irrelevant to the C&R 03 license, which resulted in mutual confusion. Some just had to assure they'd follow all the irrlevant 01 rules about town zoning etc.

I would contact the agent and confirm they understand you're an 03 C&R applicant, and not an 01 or other type, and while this visit is in no way required, there's really nothing you can do practically without years of time and lawyers if you try to refuse.

My own gut instinct tells me it's really one of three things: (And I suspect A or C as most likely)

A. Someone within the ATF itself does not understand the differences between the types of FFL's and what's required.

B. Some regional director is genuinely worried that C&R's might actually front/funnel guns to the black market, and wants to do these home visits to dissuade the (non) problem.

C. Certain divisions, regions, offices… whatever of the ATF pad their stats to the higher ups by saying they "visited X number of FFL's" during 2008 when they deliver their reports of how good little worker bees they are. And as long as the next boss up in the food chain does not question what kind of FFL's were visited, they didn’t technicaly lie. They could be doing it for simple productivity padding, to maintain/get budget, or maintain head-count and protect jobs.

Once you do get your C&R FFL, you'll also note you get tons of paperwork, and law/rule books that have nothing to do with the C&R FFL, and only apply to the commercial variants, but the ATF insists on sending them to you on a regular basis anyway.

chinacave
August 26, 2008, 12:56 PM
I live in suburban New York (City) and had the same visit. Agent came to the house, very pleasant, just wanted to make sure I knew the regs & that it was not a licensce to deal. Apparently unheard of elsewhere. I couldn't see anything too sinister in it, but YMMV.

Kudos for doing this in DC!

exar
August 26, 2008, 01:02 PM
Very strange indeed. I've had mine for awhile now and I've never got the call from the ATF.

stevelyn
August 26, 2008, 01:38 PM
I'd see your attorney, and then call and see what his concerns are, with your attorney present. If necessary for meeting, then agree to meet with him at your attorney's office. No need to let him into the domicile.

Yup. No need to let the vampires in your house.

I think this is the first I've heard of an applicant getting a Waffen BATFEces visit.

I've had mine since '05 and haven't heard a peep from them.

Blofeld
August 26, 2008, 01:46 PM
That is weird. Yes, tons of irrelevant paperwork, but never a visit.

Titus
August 26, 2008, 01:47 PM
It does happen but I haven't heard of any cases where it was anything more than maybe an inconvenience to have to have a meeting rather than just have the C&R show up in the mail. They're going to send you a huge book of the laws anyway. :)

Bubbles
August 26, 2008, 02:17 PM
I've never had a C&R FFL, just the 07. Our site inspection visit took a few hours and really wasn't a big deal. The inspector didn't want to see the whole house, just the office area where we'd be conducting business. At least 3/4 of the time was spent going over Federal gun laws and what we legally could and couldn't do.

rust collector
August 26, 2008, 02:47 PM
Do make sure you get a badge/ID number, vehicle license number, and maybe call the office number. If application information is not secure, thieves may go to amazing lengths to case or knock off a place, particularly if there may be portable goodies on the premises.

I'd offer to visit their offices instead if they're nearby. It's probably not a task they particularly enjoy. In any event, I know you will treat the individual as you would want to be treated. It's a living.

Neo-Luddite
August 26, 2008, 02:52 PM
Unusual--but you're in DC. If you got the name of the person at ATF that called--call and ask them why if you want.

The couple times I've had to call ATF they've been pleasant to deal with.

They have nice recession-proof .gov jobs that DEPEND on people WANTING TO BE INVOLVED in the fun-fun world of gun selling/collecting.

If we all suddenly decide to take up needle point and basket weaving as a hobby (or vocation) they're stuck regulating booze and rot-weed for a living.

CDignition
August 26, 2008, 03:12 PM
Yep..Ur in DC.. that's why they're there. Get out now.

zoom6zoom
August 26, 2008, 04:26 PM
Are you sure you submitted the correct application for an 03FFL and not the 01?

ctdonath
August 26, 2008, 04:42 PM
Extremely unusual.

However, getting a C&R in DC is extremely unusual. Not surprised considering your location.
Having a lawyer present might be a good idea. You should also have the option to meet at the BATFE offices instead of your home.

They very well might just be making it clear to you what the limits are on exercising your C&R: it's not a business, and current DC laws - no matter how contrary to Heller they seem - are the law. Know the law.

Glad to hear SOMEONE is trying to exercise their rights in DC via C&R! Keep us informed.

Bruce333
August 26, 2008, 05:28 PM
No, not typical at all. I've only heard of C&R app. folks getting a visit from ATF if they are in NY.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard of someone in DC applying before. Good for you!

ctdonath
August 26, 2008, 07:13 PM
I got my C&R in NY. No visit.

Big Bore
August 26, 2008, 08:09 PM
The ATF investigator came over. He was a friendly guy, no problems or attitude. I told him that I had asked around and I had found that ATF visits for C&R applicants were not common. He replied that it varies by office. He told me there were three other recent applicants in DC (and 3 existing C&R license holders) and he had visited all 3 of them. He was here for about 45 minutes and went through a checklist of a form "ATF P 5300, Acknowledgement of Federal Firearms Regulations". He briefed me on some DC laws, including two that were new to me. First, a DC C&R holder can only dispose of C&R firearms through a DC FFL dealer, and second, I can purchase one, and only one, C&R revolver. He also dropped off several books of regulations. He said I could expect my license in three to four weeks.

Chipperman
August 26, 2008, 10:49 PM
First, a DC C&R holder can only dispose of C&R firearms through a DC FFL dealer, and second, I can purchase one, and only one, C&R revolver.

So you could not sell to an FFL dealer outside of D.C, or you just cannot sell to a non-dealer within D.C?

You can only get one revolver? :barf: Well, I guess it's better than nothing. :banghead:

velobard
August 27, 2008, 12:10 AM
No ATF agents, but I did have a cop knocking on my door at 10:00 pm a few days after I turned in the copy of the application to the local chief of police. he said they have to stop by to double-check the accuracy of the information on the form. A lot of the time I get up at 5:00 a.m. so I'm sound asleep by 10, so he's lucky I was still awake. I did have my OWB holster visible because my cover shirt was off and felt a little subconcious even in my own home because of the attitude of the cops around here.

ctdonath
August 27, 2008, 12:50 AM
two that were new to me. First, a DC C&R holder can only dispose of C&R firearms through a DC FFL dealer, and second, I can purchase one, and only one, C&R revolver.
Did he cite the laws?

I'm not buying the story.
A C&R IS an FFL.
Whence the "one revolver only" law? unless it's part of DC's latest non-compliance method (can Mr. Heller register a second revolver? or not?).

Once those laws are cited verbatum, it sounds like you might have grounds for the next DC case.

Gator
August 27, 2008, 01:11 AM
First, a DC C&R holder can only dispose of C&R firearms through a DC FFL dealer, and second, I can purchase one, and only one, C&R revolver.

Sounds like its not worth getting a C&R in D.C! And that's the way they want to keep it.

exar
August 27, 2008, 01:20 AM
a DC C&R holder can only dispose of C&R firearms through a DC FFL dealer, and second, I can purchase one, and only one, C&R revolver

Good Lord man!!!:fire: That sounds utterly ridiculous. So, in reality, You really don't get full CR privileges. What a sham. Hopefully, you have a chance to get away from there and enjoy more of your rights without state infringement.

K-DUB
August 27, 2008, 01:56 AM
I am trying to learn something here, what is the difference in a FFL and
a C&R

I think I know what a FFL is, but I dont have a clue as to what a C&R is.

Thanks.

Soybomb
August 27, 2008, 02:44 AM
I am trying to learn something here, what is the difference in a FFL and
a C&R

I think I know what a FFL is, but I dont have a clue as to what a C&R is.
A C&R is a type 03 ffl, a collector of curios and relics. It allows you to have 50 year or older firearms (and some others added to a list) to your home. It is not a license to be a dealer and won't do anything for modern guns. The FFL you buy guns from is likely a type 01 ffl, a dealers license.

Technosavant
August 27, 2008, 12:24 PM
Any FFL, be they 01, 03, or whatever, still has to abide by local laws. DC has their own special set of passive aggressive laws, so I'm not really surprised at their garbage.

Kind of ironic that if you are interested in having freedom, two of the places in this nation where you DO NOT want to live are the seat of our government and the city that hosts the Statue of Liberty.

Eightball
August 27, 2008, 05:23 PM
He briefed me on some DC laws, including two that were new to me. First, a DC C&R holder can only dispose of C&R firearms through a DC FFL dealer, and second, I can purchase one, and only one, C&R revolver.This doesn't sit well with me.

Can you show us citation of such things?

gezzer
August 27, 2008, 05:57 PM
Move

Big Bore
August 27, 2008, 06:36 PM
The ATF investigator said I could purchase only one C&R revolver for the purposes of self-defense, because that was the Heller decision. But that is not exactly correct. As a result of the Heller decision, the DC Government passed "emergency" legislation for registering handguns. That legislation states that residents may purchase a revolver for the purpose of self-defense within their homes, and limits registration to one revolver per resident.

Just to be clear, I am not restricted on purchasing longguns, so long as they don't otherwise violate DC code (most C&R eligible longguns don't).

He said that the restriction on disposing C&R guns only through a DC FFL dealer was a DC requirement. I have not found that anywhere yet. Since there currently are not any DC licensed FFL dealers, and the DC government appears bent on not allowing any, I would have a permanent collection so long as I remainded in DC, and so long as the DC laws are not overturned.

velobard
August 27, 2008, 10:11 PM
The ATF investigator said I could purchase only one C&R revolver for the purposes of self-defense, because that was the Heller decision. But that is not exactly correct. As a result of the Heller decision, the DC Government passed "emergency" legislation for registering handguns. That legislation states that residents may purchase a revolver for the purpose of self-defense within their homes, and limits registration to one revolver per resident.

Just to be clear, I am not restricted on purchasing longguns, so long as they don't otherwise violate DC code (most C&R eligible longguns don't).

He said that the restriction on disposing C&R guns only through a DC FFL dealer was a DC requirement. I have not found that anywhere yet. Since there currently are not any DC licensed FFL dealers, and the DC government appears bent on not allowing any, I would have a permanent collection so long as I remainded in DC, and so long as the DC laws are not overturned.
Right now, because of the lack of D.C. FFLs, it sounds like a C&R is a great option to get a handgun.

I do recall a thread, I think on this forum, that there is ONE registered FFL in D.C. and it's one of the higher-ups at one of the anti-gun outfits. I have to wonder what's happened with that, since a number of people were griping that ATF rules state that to have an FFL you are supposed to be in the business of dealing firearms.

It will be interesting to see how many more lawsuits D.C. is going to face because of their assinine attitude in the wake of the Heller ruling.

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