[Blues Brother]

So I got my new Sig RTT 226 in 9mm. so i am telling folks about it, or showing it to them, and when they ask what caliber it is, I tell them, and they either scoff at it because its a 9, or make some funny face. what is the deal with that?

I still think 9mms are a fine caliber, and are economical to shoot. but everyone I seem to talk to just puts their nose in the air at a 9. like they are BB guns or something.

I just dont understand it.

[Agent-J]

I'm of the school of thought that if someone wants to knock the 9mm (or any caliber) as being weak, offer to let them take one in the chest.

[jonnyc]

Who is "everyone"??? You're talking to the wrong people.

[Blues Brother]

just people in general. Police seem to REALLY be down on them. I have a cousin thats a cop, and really ixnayed my gun. and the cops where I went to register it loved the finish, but kinda sneered at the caliber.

[fletcher]

I see this too, but I find that it's mainly from people that don't know that much about guns.

[oldgold]

This should be pretty clear;just click on for actual size.

[Blues Brother]

yea, but police seem to really be down on them. its like they have an attitude against the 9mm.

[blkbrd666]

Quote: "...I find that it's mainly from people that don't know that much about guns."

That's what Blues Brother just said...:D

To the OP...they're just jealous of your new gun. It's common with some people no matter the caliber you bought. Then when you have 25 calibers, most of which they have never even shot, then they will start badmouthing the weapon brand itself.

[hankdatank1362]

Yeah, it's not like the Navy SEALs carry a P226 in 9mm or anything.

Oh wait...

[shadowalker]

The 9mm is more than sufficient for self defense and I wouldn't worry about what others say too much.

I personally carry 40 S&W or 45 ACP but I have nothing against the 9mm, my wife carries one and I have full faith in its ability save our lives and certainly will not be volunteering to be shot by one :).

Usually people that bash the 9mm have limited knowledge of firearms and want to promote their own caliber selection. Those that understand the ballistics usually have enough experience to realize that other calibers might be the right choice for other people and don't belittle them.

That said there are reasons why 40 S&W and 45 ACP can be better assuming the person can accurately fire them and control the recoil. The reasons a lot of people choose 9mm is because of timid recoil, affordable ammunition, high capacity but not so much performance.

The 9mm uses pretty fairly light bullets and those tend to deflect easily especially through barriers like wood, glass or bone. The FBI found bullets under 200 grains can be prone to bone deflection, ballistic gelatin tests don't show this because they the gelatin only simulates muscle and tissue.

180 grain 40 S&W and 230 grain 45 ACP both have more energy and more momentum which can translate to more penetration and less deflection on a bad guy's bones or through glass while 155 grain 40 S&W has a 30% or more advantage over 9mm in both momentum and energy.

Both 40 S&W and 45 ACP use bullets with a larger diameter as well, which translates to larger holes and bullet paths through the bad guy and more opportunity to let blood out and less reliance on bullets expanding. Because it relies more on expansion the 9mm is more dependent on bullet selection.

[Blues Brother]

I have said before regarding calibers, I carry my Ruger LCP .380 with hollow points, and have full faith in it. I wouldnt carry it if I didnt.

[pps]

Why does it matter what others think. I carry a 38special quite frequently and don't give a rats rear end what others think of my choice.

[12131]

So, you talked to a few people, and that's "everyone"?

[The_Shootist]

..."nine is fine".

Unfortunately, that comes from (cough) gentlemen who likely have more "real world" :scrutiny: calibre experience than the majority of the posters on this board ever will - or indeed should.

[FourNineFoxtrot]

I don't currently own a handgun chambered in anything larger than 9mm. While that's something I intend to rectify, I certainly don't feel undergunned with my Sig P226.

One major plus of 9mm is that ammo is cheaper and more plentiful than any pistol round save .22s. Mag capacity helps, too, although it's hardly a key issue for me, especially living in California, where I can't get standard mags, and have to use handicapped 10 rounders in my full size P226.

Would I feel better with a .40 S&W, or a .45? Maybe, but only if I had the same absolute confidence in the gun that I have in my Sig. Until that day, I'm not worried. 9mm has plenty of graveyards. So does Sig Sauer.

[Wolfman_556]

I like 9mm and .45acp about the same.

[KC0QGL]

I get the same scoff when I tell people that I carry a .380. I just tell them that "dead is dead, it doesn't matter the caliber."

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Marketing.

Those who know, know the nine is mighty fine. Those who don't think that it's little more than a peashooter. I am confident I am quite deadly with my nines, should the need arise.

[Kino74]

but everyone I seem to talk to just puts their nose in the air at a 9. like they are BB guns or something.


Two reasons for that 1) arrogance and 2) ignorance.

I can't tell you how many times some one has bought a .45 ACP because its manly and scoff at the diminutive 9 mm. No kidding but I personally know aa couple of guys whose first and only caliber handguns are .45 acp. Matter of fact I had to show them how to clean their guns. Yep they can not hit the side of a barn with their pistols either. Alot of people equate the size of the caliber with the size of their manhood. I see it all the time.

LEOs are down on the 9mm because of its supposed lack of stopping power. even though FBI statistics(take your pick of them) show single digit differences between a 9 mm and a 40 S&W. Ask any LEO how many times their 9 mm has failed them and how many times their 40 S&W succeeded perfectly. You'll hear the sound of crickets unless they tell the story of their cousin's sister's brother's nephew at some other police unit had a bad experience with the 9 mm. I get that all the time from a couple LEOs in my family.

There is no replacement for shot placement.

[LightningMan]

It's a long read but here is a good source as to what calibers/bullets work best.
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20morgue.htm
PS. I personally like the 9mm as it makes a good range gun because it's cheaper to shoot. LM

[loneviking]

That guy over at the Gunthorpe link mirrors what I've seen and believe from 25 years of working in E.R.s. The 9mm gets the job done---eventually and with some luck.

That's why I carry a .357, of which I've only seen five shootings come in. Three were DOA, center mass shots from LEO's. One was a BG shot by a GG in the groin. The BG was hit in the femoral artery and bled out within minutes of hitting the E.R. The last one was a GG shot at close range during a street robbery by a BG. He survived with extensive G.I. tract surgery, but even months later he still had stomach pain and G.I. tract problems from the shooting.

There's no way I'd trust my life to a 9MM.

[chupacabrah]

That guy over at the Gunthorpe link mirrors what I've seen and believe from 25 years of working in E.R.s. The 9mm gets the job done---eventually and with some luck.

That's why I carry a .357, of which I've only seen five shootings come in. Three were DOA, center mass shots from LEO's. One was a BG shot by a GG in the groin. The BG was hit in the femoral artery and bled out within minutes of hitting the E.R. The last one was a GG shot at close range during a street robbery by a BG. He survived with extensive G.I. tract surgery, but even months later he still had stomach pain and G.I. tract problems from the shooting.

There's no way I'd trust my life to a 9MM.

that's just silly. It's all about shot placement. do what works for you,though.

9mm is a fine round, powerful enough to get the job done, low recoil, cheap ammo, and is reliable. most of the world LEOs/military use 9mm in their handguns (aside from the US)

[loop]

Do your research. You'll figure it out.

[everallm]

The whole 9mm versus .4X caliber war is in the same vein as the "If God had a gun it would be a Glock, no he wouldn't, he'd have a 1911, no a BHP, no a HK, etc etc".

The argument will continue as long as there are metallic projectiles and it's not as if there aren't enough dead bodies with 9mm in them out there.......

[rklessdriver]

Plain and simple the 9mm suffers from the "NOT INVENTED HERE" problem.

I agree. Anyone who believes the 9mm sucks should line up and take one center mass. If they survive, I MAY reconsider my position on the matter.
Will

[Guns and more]

I have gone from .45's to 9's. I like them both, but when I go to shoot, a box of 100 9mm. is $19 and a box of the same in .45 is $28, I get a lot more "bang" for my buck at the range. My CZ holds 20 rounds. That's enough for me.
Believe me, if the shooting starts, the bad guy is going to run just as fast from a 9 as a 45.

[Drgong]

9mm is fine, just as .38 specials are fine. With my BHP I can quickly get off a half dozen shots, and a well placed 9mm is going to handle the situation.

[fineredmist]

A hit with a .22 is much better than a miss with a .45. Use the tool you are proficient with!

[mr.72]

It's a long read be here is a good source as to what calibers/bullets work best.
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

That is not a good source of information, far from it.

It is based completely on anecdotal evidence with no supporting facts, and uses a fallacious assumption to predict the conclusion with no basis is actual fact.

With that said, I don't think that there is any way to come to a reliable conclusion about effectiveness of handgun calibers from a scientific or statistical point of view. The reason for this is that we cannot create any reasonable test environment to evaluate our hypothesis. Imagine the ad on CL: "volunteer gangbangers wanted for a research study to test the effectiveness of various handgun calibers in defensive situations. Volunteers must be males, 18-24 years of age, and will be administered a dose of street drugs 30 minutes prior to the trial. Follow-up medical treatment or funeral services will be provided."

Since we can't create a controlled, reliable study, we can't have reliable data in order to support a reliable conclusion.

I'm sorry but counting the number of rounds in dead bodies at the morgue does not establish anything useful about the effectiveness of handgun calibers. .

[Blues Brother]

I just like the 9 because I can afford to shoot them at the range. I carry a 9 and my .380. I feel comfortable with my 9's and I shoot best with them. now, the thing is I can afford to shoot my actual carry guns at the range so I can be proficient with them. Its not like I carry a 45 but practice with a 22. I practice with my carry guns. I just feel comfy with one.

As someone else previously referred to, I think alot of this caliber insecurity is like guys that have corvettes or spendy sports cars. maybe they lack confidence in thier manhood and try to compensate with big guns and fast cars.

I just find the 9 practical. adequately powered, and economical.

I have a Springfield XD-9 sub compact, a S&W 5906, and a SIg P226 all in 9mm. I shoot very well with all of them and feel confident in the caliber.

[ranger335v]

"I agree. Anyone who believes the 9mm sucks should line up and take one center mass."

Such arguments defending the wimpy 9mm are assumed to prove the point but they are intellectually dishonest. I am sure that no one will willingly to "take one center mass" hit from a .22 RF Short but that does not confirm that the .22 RF Short is a worthy defense weapon.

The 9mm IS a European police round, designed to stop European criminals. Historically, they have not been known for toughness or determined attack following a wound of much magnitude. Thus, for them, the 9mm works fine. It WAS sort of forced on us by our NATO treaty commitment to have commonality of ammunition. The US wanted and got NATO acceptance of the 5.56 rifle and they got to choose the 9mm hangun round. In other words, the 9mm wasn't chosen by our military because of any virtures in combat, it was simply easier for Europeans to learn to shoot the little gun than the .45.

A personal defense weapon, by it's very name, accepts that the shooter's life is at hazard. Defending MY life and MY FAMILY will not depend on what is, in fact, a .38 +P with light bullets! The .38 Spec. was proven to be a poor man stopper in the Philipines back about 1905. And it's no better today, over in the sand box.

That failure was what got us the 1911 and.45 ACP. A GI .45 ACP rides my hip and sleeps by my bedside. I admit that my wife is a bit of a wimp, she carries a .38 S in her purse and is comfortable shooting 158 gr. SWC, loaded heavy. Neither of us would be comfortable depending on a fast moving 115 gr. .38 bullet for our lives.

The choice of cartridges is a personal thing, to each his own ... after all, it's his life and his family protection choices.

However, don't say my reluctance to take a center mass, or edge mass, injury lends any validity to your position because it's a foolish argument.

[Drgong]

Actually ranger, it was the much weaker .38 Long Colt, not the special that caused the .45 to be used. ;)

the .38 special, exp. in its +p types are very good self defense rounds. So is the 9mm. so is the .45, as is the .50 BMG.

I will be using a combonation of the .327 mag, .38 special/.357 mag and 9mm, and I am more the sure that any of those have the stopping power i need.

[ZeSpectre]

You know, people always refer to humans being shot to determine the effectiveness of a caliber. Me, I prefer to find references to ANIMALS being shot.

As I've pointed out before, psychology plays a MAJOR component in a human being getting shot. Most humans (pre-programmed by hollywood and so forth) drop immediately with the thought "my god, I've been SHOT!" and are often stunned to realize that they are going to survive the experience.

Animals on the other hand tend to go "Hey, something stung me, ouch that hurt" and then they keep on doing what they were doing until the CNS shuts down or they bleed out because they don't understand how badly they've been hurt so they don't worry about it.

I've seen various small to medium animals taken down with a 9mm and good ammo. I saw a small (90-110 lb) black bear finished off with 2 9mm rounds after it was hit by a truck. If you can do your part of the job, it will do it's part.

However I do believe the "margin for error" is smaller with 9mm. Yes the typical 9mm shooter can shoot faster and more accurately but I think you would also HAVE to do so in order to remain effective. I have no scientific evidence to back this up, just some observations over time.

Plus when you grow up shooting full power .357 a 9mm feels an awful lot like a "pop-gun". :neener:

[ranger335v]

"Actually ranger, it was the much weaker .38 Long Colt, not the special that caused the .45 to be used. The .38 special, exp. in its +p types are very good self defense rounds. So is the 9mm. so is the .45, as is the .50 BMG."

Now that you mention it, I believe you're right about the .38 LC. My bad memory needed that correction. No matter about my erronous memery of the poor stopping power of the 38 LC, the poor stopping power of the 9mm Parabellum in a street shoot out in Miami is what drove the FBI to have the .40 developed.

I agree that a heavy loaded .38 Spec. SHOULD be sufficent, and is in most cases. In my mind it's the minimum for social work. But, as I said previously, I don't/won't use the 9mm for defense of my family because it goes below what I feel is sufficent for defense.

The .357 is more impressive, but I remember a depressing news story from Texas years ago. Seems a cop walked into a bar's "fist and knife fight" late one night and fired his usual one round into the ceiling. That noise always got everyones attention and stopped every fighter - all but one.

ONE bad dude, who was "well likkered up" witnesses said, charged the cop, who promptly emptied his remaining five into the trolls mid-chest. Dropped him too, after maybe 3 or 4 seconds. During which time he managed to stab the cop in the heart a couple of times.

It was in the news in the late fifties. It made me think long and hard about what I would depend on to stop drunks and, today, crack-heads. I feel sure the cop was shooting round nose hard swaged lead bullets that gave minimal impact effect but still ... FIVE HITS! ??

Nines are not fine for me!

[Drgong]

One issue that people keep forgetting for Self defense is that overpentration only gets you in trouble.

[Checkman]

ranger335v

The 9mm IS a European police round, designed to stop European criminals. Historically, they have not been known for toughness or determined attack following a wound of much magnitude. Thus, for them, the 9mm works fine.

Just for historical reference the 9mm Luger came about because Mr. Luger was trying interest the German military in his P1900 semi-auto pistol. The Germans liked the Luger, but not the .30 caliber bullet it fired. So Mr. Luger necked up the cartridge for the 9mm bullet, but retained the velocity of the 30 caliber load. Viola the 9mm Luger came into exsistence and the German Navy purchased the handgun. The P06. The P08 Luger came about later when the German Army went with it. Biggest difference was the Naval Luger had a six inch barrel and the Army version had a four inch barrel. Of course there is the artillery Luger with the 8" barrel as well.

Most European police forces stayed with the 32 acp until the seventies and the onset of all the domestic and foreign terrorists. At that point the Euros realized that they were outgunned and the switch to 9mm handguns began. In all fairness to the Euros (and I'm not a big fan of their politics) they've been dealing with terrorists killing and destroying on their soil for much longer than we have. The 9mm has given a pretty good record for them.

But I also own a Sig P245 in 45acp. So the great debate goes on. :D

[ozwyn]

9mm is 100 years proven. Might not be the first choice, but if you do your job, it'll work fine.

Ammunition developments have also allowed it to age gracefully.

9mm has served well in every war since its development, frequently on both sides.

And the fact that is does balance recoil, size and magazine capacity means when shot #2 doesn't work, shots 2-5 up to 15-19 might be on hand.

It is a compromise caliber,m but all handgun calibers are and its pretty well proven

[jonboynumba1]

Pistols be they 9,40,45 are ALL underpowered by their very nature and a compromise. It's fine to have favorites and opinions but with the proper ammo they are all far more alike than they are different. Compared to a rifle (even in such a small caliber as say .223!) or a shotgun it's apples and oranges...however you can't very well walk around all day with an M4 or tactical scattergun on your person or on the seat next to you in the truck so they tend to be quite handy for "having something that can work well if used right" As far as "stopping power" That's why God gave us high capacity magazines.-LOL

That being said I preffer calibers that start with a "4" -LOL but I've carried 9mm plenty and would again if I liked the gun.

[MK11]

LOL. I'd like to see how Ranger335v would fare if he was dropped into a British or French prison among all the weakling criminals.

[Blues Brother]

well from my point of view, I cant imagine doing anything after being shot by any caliber other than collapse. But I am not a crack head either. All I can think is, if I were shot by anything, I would be down like a load of bricks. just the shock factor, the stunning reality you were shot, the pain, etc.... I cant imagine me doing anything.

Now I agree that the hollywood movie makers probably put all kinds of ideas into our heads about reactions to being shot.

who really knows though..... there is no way to test these theories. no way.

[Proinsias]

the poor stopping power of the 9mm Parabellum in a street shoot out in Miami is what drove the FBI to have the .40 developed.
That's basically true. but from what I understand, the 10mm was first developed for that reason. When the 10mm proved too unwieldy, they shortened it to make .40

[shadowalker]

One issue that people keep forgetting for Self defense is that overpentration only gets you in trouble.

If you haven't read it yet the FBI's publication Handgun's Wounding Factors and Effectiveness (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf) is a good read.

Over penetration is hyped a lot but handgun bullets are more likely to under penetrate, they are low energy and expand which while helpful, reduces penetration.

You are far more likely to miss the BG than have a bullet go through a BG and hurt someone else, police average > 90% hits on stationery targets and somewhere around 12% on moving targets. Even if a JHP exits the BG it has shed a large amount of its wounding capability and hopefully has expanded.

Keep in mind is ballistic gelatin doesn't completely accurately replicate a human, 12 inches of ballistic gelatin penetration is the minimum recommendation from the FBI with up to 18 being preferred. Somewhere along the line the misconception that 12 inches of ballistic gelatin penetration was the goal and that more than that is over penetration became popular.

The bullet has to not only penetrate deep bone, muscle, and increasingly fat to reach the vitals it has to have enough momentum and energy to destroy them, a bullet that is traveling too slowly tends to push vitals aside rather than penetrating them.

Handgun's only effective stopping factor is penetration, the bullets aren't high enough velocity for temporary wounding cavity or hydrostatic shock to come into play.

Shot placement is important but contrary to a lot of people's statements it is NOT the single most important factor, both penetration and shot placement are equally important. Shot placement with a caliber or bullet that can't penetrate and destroy vitals is not going to be effective, neither is an ultra powerful caliber that the person can't accurately shoot.

[SomeDude]

As long as it goes bang when you squeeze the trigger (every time)and the bullet strikes where you put your front sight then it doesn't matter the caliber. Shooting in self defense is to STOP the threat, not to kill. If you shoot a guy in the leg and he stops attacking you then the weapon has done it's job.
I have a SR9 that some people hate. It has never had a misfeed or misfire after 500 rounds. 300 of those rounds were with a dirty gun.
I had an experience with a HK USP in .45 that had three stovepipes within 20 rounds (factory ammo). A big bullet can never replace practice.
Pay no mind to the gunstore warrior wanabes.

[OregonJohnny]

Oh boy, sounds like a caliber war is brewing. Let me start by saying I own a 9mm, among many other handgun calibers. I like it very much.

Now, having said that, I'll bet some of the "scoffing" at 9mm by "experts" is because it sounds like a novice caliber. Like if someone who had never owned or shot a gun in their life went out and bought a Glock 9mm without doing any research, I'd probably scoff. Not because it's an inferior firearm by any means, but because that is such a typical novice gun to lust after. If a first time gun owner went out and purchased something like a used Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, I'd probably assume they knew what they were doing, or had an interest beyond what they see portrayed on TV and in movies. You bought a Sig, a very fine gun. It's a 9mm, a very fine caliber choice for personal defense. Don't worry too much about it.

Not everyone who owns a Glock or a 9mm is a fanboy or a novice just doing what their favorite rapper or action star does, but the truth is, some are.

[mr.72]

When I had never owned or shot a gun before in my life, I read a bunch and did a lot of research, and ended up buying a hi-cap 9mm poly gun.

The reasons for choosing a 9mm are numerous and are not limited only to the so-called "stopping power" of a single round.

For me I wanted:

-more than 10 shots of capacity
-an effective SD/HD caliber
-a DAO gun with no manual safety to have to fool with
-something that would allow a newbie like me & my wife economical practice with actual defense-type rounds
-a gun that would be within the realm of handling for persons ranging from myself (a pretty strong 6' 185lb man) down to my 11-year-old daughter (95lb 5'4" kid), and including frequent use by my wife (6', 130lb, fit but not strong)

Given that for some period of time this was going to be my "one and only gun" for the whole family, the 9mm made the most sense. A .45ACP gun would have failed more than one of my tests, and a .40SW would be close but not quite on all of them.

Now that I am about to buy my "second gun", one for me to carry primarily, guess what. It's still going to be a 9mm. In this case, every rule above applies, except that "high capacity" is replaced with "concealment", and I am adding in the benefit of commonality of ammo with my other gun.

My family's third gun may very well not be a 9mm. Unfortunately for all of the "begins with a 4" crowd, odds are it will be a .380 or a .38 snub. Otherwise it might be a .32 or a .22LR. Odds are that until I am buying about my fifth or sixth gun, 9mm/.38 may be the largest caliber we own.

[CajunBass]

People that knock on the 9mm probably don't have to buy their own ammo.

:rolleyes:

[kcshooter]

There's no way I'd trust my life to a 9MM.Ridiculous. It is a completely effective and viable caliber.

the poor stopping power of the 9mm Parabellum in a street shoot out in Miami is what drove the FBI to have the .40 developed.Ammunition has come a very very long way in the last 20-plus years. Same shootout today, those rounds would have been plenty sufficient. Proper shot placement would have helped, too.
The 9mm IS a European police round, designed to stop European criminals. Historically, they have not been known for toughness or determined attack following a wound of much magnitude.Seriously, you believe that the American criminals are so much tougher than European ones that 9mm rounds won't stop them? Seriously?? I have no idea what a statement like that is based on.


I usually carry a .45. Occasionally I carry a 9mm or 38. I have never felt like I wasn't carrying enough caliber.
Nor do I think anyone who ever threatens my life or the lives of my family will feel like I didn't shoot them with a big enough bullet.

[Meowhead]

Because it actually has negative stopping power. My uncle's coworker's cousin is a Navy seal and after he did a sea landing in Afghanistan he emptied his Beretta at some bad guys, one of whom took a bullet in the eye. It followed the bone in the back of the eye socket and came back at him!!

[Blues Brother]

I cant buy that one. that sounds like its from a James Bond movie.

[Carl Levitian]

One could knock the 9mm as much as the next gun shop comando, but a couple facts to keep in mind.

The military cemitaries in France are filled with alot of American G.I.'s that were hit by a MP-40 wielded by a member of the German army.

Also in the same vein, there are alot of graves over there, filled by victims of British soldiers shooting the old Sten gun.

Here in Washington D.C. where alot of street gang activity takes place, not a week goes by without a young African-American male getting killed by a 9mm.

It all can't be bad luck on the victims part.

[NG VI]

I see this too, but I find that it's mainly from people that don't know that much about guns.
__________________


Me too. I have a friend who wants a USP .45 in stainless because that is the "original" USP (I guess he doesn't know too much about HK, because the Hostile Environment finish is AWESOME!) and he won't get anything but a .45 because he wants more power than what he would get from a 9x19mm. I don't think he understands that in service pistol calibers, ammo selection is far more important than caliber. I would take 147 HST over any wally world .45 JHP anyday.

[Blues Brother]

I just dont think people have valid reason to diss the 9 so much.

[Thaddeus Jones]

Those who knock and disparage the 9mm round do not comprehend the concept of shot placement.

Did anyone read about the police shooting in Illinois yesterday?

The officer shot the perp 14 times, HIT HIM 14 times with 45 rounds.

The perp continued to fire on the officer, and is still alive in custody, as of this AM.

Wonder what the 45 disciples will make of this shooting. Probably won't cite it much I suspect.

I guess the officer did not hit him in the thumb and send him flying backwards to expire from the shock of being struck by the mighty 45 :p

[SuperNaut]

I think that the OP is starting from a false premise: That the average cop knows anything about firearms.

I'd bet the cops were sneering at the caliber because 9mm is a "gangster caliber" and it didn't even cross their minds that the pistol on their hip is the same caliber.

The above isn't meant to be cop bashing, it is just that most cops I've met aren't gun guys.

[kcshooter]

Because it actually has negative stopping power. My uncle's coworker's cousin is a Navy seal and after he did a sea landing in Afghanistan he emptied his Beretta at some bad guys, one of whom took a bullet in the eye. It followed the bone in the back of the eye socket and came back at him!!That's a joke, right??

[Doogy]

not to be too morbid, but to prove a point:
there are lots of bodies of NATO enemies out there the last 20 years, that were killed by 9mm US and NATO carrying troops

[jad0110]

Not to be morbid either, but Cho used a 22LR and a 9mm at VT in Apr '07; historically two of the most underestimated handgun cartridges around. I doubt anyone who was there that day would call either weak.

[Carl Levitian]

Has anyone cought on yet, a sea landing in Afganistan is impossable? It's a landlocked country!:scrutiny:

[tipoc]

To put things in perspective. In the early 80s police depts. en masse moved away from revolvers in .38 Spl. and .357 for high capacity 9mm handguns. The Berretta 92 (which had just been adopted by the U.S. military which still carries them), the Sig and later Glocks in 9mm ruled the roost. Then came the Miami shootout and the FBI moved away from the 9mm for the 10mm and later the 40 SW. It sort of dissed the 9mm. A large number of law enforcement agencies who had praised the 9mm took the FBIs lead and went to the brand new 40&W. Some looked down on the 9mm for no real proven reason.

But some agencies stuck with the 9mm. In the wake of the FBIs move ammo manufacturers went to great lengths to improve their ammo across the board. 9mm +P and +P+ became more available to law enforcement and non leos. Better bullet design also followed. The 9mm improved. As did other rounds.

A lot of folks don't know this and many, many cops don't. By and large cops aren't shooters. They carry a flashlight , they carry a paper pad and they carry a gun. Carrying a gun don't make you a gunny.

With proper shot placement any of the standard service rounds can be effective for self defense.

tipoc

[BlindJustice]

+1 for Tipoc - JHP have improved every decade since the Miami shootout.

9MM Luger is however limited to FMJ in the Military.

And jeez you people how many cartridges do we have
in calibers 9MM, .40 & .45 ? Y'all are refering to specific
assumed cartridges, 9MM LUger .40 S&W and .45 ACP

A cartridge has a caliber,
A caliber can be used in more than one type of cartridge

ok, I feel better.... just reminded me of a non-precise buddy
who went into a gun shop and asked for a box of bullets for his
.45. The shop had ammo and components, the clerk asked what
weight bullets - response 230 gr. so he got his box and went to
the range. He came back to the store bitching about getting a box
of 100 bullets not loaded ammo. The store clerk said I gave you
exactly what you asked for.

Ok.... 9MM Luger I got one 4 months ago, a CZ 75B. I did initially
get it for a range gun to cut back shooting so much .45 ACP in my
1911. However, it's been 100% reliable, accurate and I like the handling
as well as the DA first shot. It's another HD/SD option imo I have no
problem trusting it for this purpose. I had a Browning Hi-Power in the late 70s before JHPs improved and it had FTFs as well as stovepipes, and wehn
money got tight it was the one that was sold, however with the maturity
of years, as well as knowledge of improvments in bullet performance the 9mmx19 aka 9MM Parabellum aka 9MM has changed my view.

I still have the 1911 as my go to gun, as it's what I carried in the USN
as well as having a Combat Commander in the 70s/80s, and my lizard brain
just has the 1911 manual of arms imprinted in the synapses.

The Sig 226 is the COast Guard sidearm as well as Homeland defense also
bought 4 times as many as the Coasties the same fiscal year, Seals have it in their Small ARms locker as well.

Gun snobs are to me, like women who say they'll only ride on a harley neither being the most informed or brightest lights on the xmas tree.

R-

[cornman]

like 9mm and .45acp about the same as well. I see not need for the .40 though. I wanted to like it, but I find the snap of the recoil to be the most annoying of any caliber I know of.

[Rxxdoc]

Try carrying a .32 ACP Guardian. Then they laugh!

I still hold to the idea that people do not like getting shot, and will leave you alone if you show them your gun.

Yes, it's brandishing. But very few BG's will be willing to call the police.


Enjoy your 9 and don't worry about it.

[IndianaBoy]

Nine is Fine.

[BlindJustice]

FWIW - on this and another board I frequent there's a lot of
interest in 1911 platforms in 9MM Luger right wnow.

R-

[mr.72]

I thought the popular opinion of the "Miami Shootout" report was that the FBI had to blame something other than policies or human error and they decided to blame the ammo, particularly the 9x19.

[RNB65]

I'm not down on 9mm. I work in a hospital and I can tell you from personal knowledge that 9mm is a very efficient killing round. It kills you really, really, dead.

[Stradawhovious]

Who cares? I carry .45, others carry .38, you're interested in 9mm. Can you trust it to get the job done? If you answer is yes, then it's the right caliber for you. If the answer is no...........well, you get the idea.

[KBintheSLC]

I'm of the school of thought that if someone wants to knock the 9mm (or any caliber) as being weak, offer to let them take one in the chest.

Heck, offer to let them take one in the pinky toe for that matter. The various claims of the 9mm's ineffectiveness came from a different era of ammunition. Most modern expanding ammo does the job just fine.

[Fixxxer]

I carry a 9.

I feel comfortable with 16 127 +p+ Rangers.

I doubt anyone will be standing after I empty the mag.

[Ergosphere]

I've personally moved from 9mm to .45 ACP, but I don't think 9mm is in any way deficient as a major-caliber pistol cartridge, especially with good, modern JHP +P ammo.

[MMCSRET]

The nine is fine if the operator of that particular piece of machinery is a skilled operator. Its just like any other endeavor, you must know what you are doing with the tool. In my opinion, trying to effectively take down an adrenalin fired human with the nine is like trying to frame a house with a 6 ounce ball peen hammer.

[Dimis]

i read an article once in a knife magazine it was about this knife fighter anyway they asked him what knife was the best his responce was the one in my hands i feel the same about firearms for defence which one is best? well simply put the one in your hands that works even a lowly .22 has the potential to kill as for the "experts" they will tell you that nothing short of a .45 will kill but even thats not true i watched a cop on one of those reality shows take 7 shots from a .45 one of which was in his neck and didnt die yea he fell down yea he was hurt BAD but its not 100% that youll die there isnt anything man portable or legel for civillian use that will garauntee death with one shot even .50AE or .500S&W isnt a fool proof plan as for 9mm i like them but im kind of a gun nut and like alot of calibers ive shot mainly glocks and berrettas in 9 but i like the controlability of them even if the military tells us we have to pump 3 in to be sure i still think being hit with anything is at least a deterant

as for home defence tho i believe whole heartedly nothing in the world will ever be better than a good old 12 gauge shotgun

[px4storm]

The 9mm IS a European police round, designed to stop European criminals. Historically, they have not been known for toughness or determined attack following a wound of much magnitude. :what:

Are European criminals wimpier than American criminals?

Such arguments attacking the 9mm are assumed to prove the point but they are intellectually dishonest.
I changed two words in the quote to make the point.

The officer shot the perp 14 times, HIT HIM 14 times with 45 rounds.
The perp continued to fire on the officer, and is still alive in custody, as of this AM.
Wonder what the 45 disciples will make of this shooting. Probably won't cite it much I suspect.
I guess the officer did not hit him in the thumb and send him flying backwards to expire from the shock of being struck by the mighty 45

I'm sure that this must have been an American criminal because those wimpy European criminals would have died on the first hit in the thumb! Oh yeah, and I'm sure they would have gone flying through a plate glass window too!

[theken206]

"Has anyone cought on yet, a sea landing in Afganistan is impossable? It's a landlocked country!"

well as roy boehm would say there was water in his canteen right?? hehehehehe, funny stuff though

[tblt]

Looking at the results here I think the 9 can hang with most cals.
I am getting some hydra shok HST+p

Look at the 147 grain next to the quarter
at the bootom of the page

http://www.btfh.net/shoot/bullet-test-3.html

[Old School]

handgun caliber thread number 1,000,000. You win a prize.

[pbearperry]

Every Police Dept. has some sort of firearm Training Officer or Range Officer and these guys are always gun guys.They are the guys that give input about arms and ammo.When a certain round that is being used shows poor performance in the field even though there was good shot placement,they usually try to get the Chief to go with a better product.My Dept. had a couple of instances where the 9mm did not perform very well.At that point we then dumped the 147 gr subsonic HP and went with a 115 gr +P+,and finally to the .40 cal.
The biggest problem we had with the 147 gr subsonic was that a few of our female Officers were getting jams with the Glocks due to holding the gun with a limp wrist.As soon as the +P+ rounds were tried,that problem went away.The problem never resurfaced when we switched to the .40 cal Glocks either.
As far as Cops not being gunnies,my Dept. has improved greatly through the years.More Officers take firearm training a lot more serious that 30-40 years ago.

[Kino74]

I'd like to add a case I read about in one of my ballistic books. The perp took 18 .357 magnum 125 grain +P rounds to the chest before dropping. The individual was was pumped up on a combination of PCP and Cocaine.

[highlander 5]

Haven't read thru all the threads but pistols and revolvers are not the best for protection,a rifle or shotgun is what is needed,but you can't hide either very well so it's down to a handgun. As someone said earlier NO one wants to be shot even if it's a 22. And I would agree that it's the SKILL of the operator. Who would you rather have shooting at you,some gang banger with a hand cannon or Jerry Miculek with a 22?
I seem to remember an incident back in the 80s a story of a guy on PCP shot 30 or 40 times by RI state troopers using 9 mm Silvertips and he would not go down he did finally more from loss of blood than anything else. Was it the failure of the 9 mm or the fact that you could have hit him with an RPG and he wouldn't have felt it.

[parisite]

Is stopping power the ONLY attribute we deem worthy in a caliber?

How about shooting for pure pleasure at extended range/outdoor sessions.

25 yard accuracy/group size? Isn't that an attribute worth mentioning?

Cost and ease of reloading?

My how today's gun culture has changed.

[Beagle-zebub]

yea, but police seem to really be down on them. its like they have an attitude against the 9mm.

Where do you live?

[Aaryq]

It's because 9mm will actually bounce off of a human target and injure the one who's shooting.

Seriously, a 9mm protects my home and I'm happy with it.

[Poor East Texan]

Hmmm....

This gets me thinking...

I have a second gen S&W 9MM as a truck gun. The most likely scenario would be a car jacker, at which I would pull the S&W and point it.

It only stands to figure that the jacker looking at a .45 hole (11.4mm) instead of 9MM (.35) might be a little more scared.....

Hate to expose my old 1911A to the possibilty.... nor my 1911A1 "custom" gun.

Guess I'll be looking for a decent .45 FTF deal.....

[kcshooter]

It only stands to figure that the jacker looking at a .45 hole (11.4mm) instead of 9MM (.35) might be a little more scared.....Flawed logic. This isn't a comparison of the "fear factor" of .45 over 9mm. Regardless, a carjacker would be just as likely to be or not be detered by a .22 or .45. People don't think like that. They aren't going to consider whether or not the hole pointing at them is big enough to be scared of, they are going to think that they have a gun pointing at them and react however they are going to react at that point regardless of the size of that gun.

"gosh, I better run, that's an 11.4mm hole!"
"hah, I'm not scared, that hole is only 9mm's!"

Being carjacked puts the BG within 5 feet of you. I could care less about caliber at that point. Nor could I care about how scared he is. I care about how well I could stop him from continuing his attack. At that distance, can anyone really say a 9mm isn't enough gun??

[-v-]

Handguns suck at killing people. Perhaps the .44 mag or a .500 S&W Mag might be more effective, but otherwise anything between .35"-.50" diameter, provided it has good ammunition, will perform about the same.

If you want to STOP someone dead in their tracks, grab a .45-70 or a 12ga with 1oz 3" magnum slugs. As long as you do your part of hitting them, I am sure either round will have NO difficulty stopping most unaltered persons in their tracks.

PCP addicts excluded, as you can probably draw and quarter them, and they'll still try to kill you...

For reference I have both 9mm and the 10mm Special (aka .40S&W) and feel confident with both, but prefer the 9mm.

[cliffy]

A 9mm bullet cannot hold a candle to a .45 ACP concerning Knock-Down power! I much prefer a .243 Winchester for total KNOCK-Down power, but no pistols are yet designed to handle the recoil of .243 Winnie-Poohs. A .454 Casull remains as the ultimate-practical pistol cartridge of firm management. Observe the number of concealable .45 ACP pistols available, and learn why. In rifles, extreme speed rules, but in pistols mass remains king. Two different entities require two different projectiles. cliffy

[kcshooter]

KNOCK-Down power

::sigh::

There is NO SUCH THING as knock-down power from a handgun.


I don't know how many times this needs said. Apparently, quite a few.



.243 Winnie-PoohsWhiskey Tango Foxtrot?

[Meowhead]

I think cliffy meant KNOCK-Back POWER which is where the bad guy is lifted off his feet and knocked back by the bullet, preferibly into a plate-glass window. Clearly physics dictates only bullets at or above 10.749mm diameter are capable of transferring enough energy to the target on impact.Meowhead

[BlindJustice]

Don't listen to Cliffy hey DUde there's a reason .45-70 is still regarded
as big medicine against Grizzly or Big Browns

and 454 Casull may be a good hunting round but it's not crap for quick repeat shots on target heck they've been saying that about full house .44
mag for years as well....

IMHO of course

now, with the recent development of 9MM LUger platforms geting smaller
it really makes .380 ACP a poor choice IMO because of the lesser bullet weight as well as velocity. I think the Springfield Armory EMP in 9MM LUger
as well as the SIg P239 are both great CCW options depending on whether
you like the COnd 1 carry, or a DA/SA platform. THey make the PPK/S seem an overweight wimp.... and they are both imo of course better in 9MM LUger than .40 S&W both being single stack and more concealbable as a result.

Randall

[cliffy]

A .45 ACP retains a standard 100% knock-down when an adversary is hit in the shoulder, while a .357 Magnum offers 160% knock-down power with a shoulder-hit. What does a .454 Casull hit offer? I fret to guess. cliffy

[BlindJustice]

FYI - I've shot 124 gr. and 147 gr. Win. and Rem as well as Gold DOt and Golden saber. I like the lower noise of the 147s and found that instead of the usual approx 1000 fps I can get Double Tap ammo 9mm Luger with 147 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHPs at 1100 Fps and that's still just under supersonic.

I like the Double Tap .45 ACP 200 gr. Gold Dot JHPs at 1100 FPS as well.

If it was going to be in the back country I would look for some Hornady XTP JHPs +P in either CARTRIDGE.

Randall

[Meowhead]

A .45 ACP retains a standard 100% knock-down when an adversary is hit in the shoulder, while a .357 Magnum offers 160% knock-down power with a shoulder-hit. What does a .454 Casull hit offer? I fret to guess. cliffyI don't know about .454 Cassull but based on the above caliber data I calculate that (since 9mm = 0.354 inches) 9mm will give 158.65546218487394957983193277311% knock-down power with a shoulder hit, enough to knock a bad guy down and, when he stands up again, knock him down again but only slightly more than half way.

[Mickstix]

Has anyone cought on yet, a sea landing in Afganistan is impossable? It's a landlocked country!

I would of thought "Uncle's, co-worker's, cousin" was enough to give it away.. :D

[BikerRN]

Why is everyone so down on 9mm's these days?

Who says we are?

It's my duty caliber, with 115 Grain +P+ JHP's. No matter the caliber, I still have to do my part and put the bullets where they need to go, even with my 45 ACP or my .357 Magnums.

BikerRN

[Silvanus]

A .45 ACP retains a standard 100% knock-down when an adversary is hit in the shoulder, while a .357 Magnum offers 160% knock-down power with a shoulder-hit. What does a .454 Casull hit offer? I fret to guess. cliffy

:confused::uhoh::confused:

[Checkman]

Silvanus I second your sense of befuddlement. :confused::confused:

[Blues Brother]

I am equally befuddled.

[fletcher]

Guys, I don't think cliffy is being serious, just injecting some humor into a caliber thread.


If he is serious, I'm going to go cry in the corner over the future of the gun community.

[ratgunner]

I think they are down on 9mm's for the same reason some people are down on the .223 , the military boys arent getting good results. But thats because they shoot ball ammo aka FMJ. Now use hollow points or good soft points then things change in a big way.;) BTW cliffy,there are a few pistols chambered in .243 Win. most are single shots though.LOL.

[george29]

There are a few basic scenarios, the opportunist criminal, the career criminal, the wacked out psycho, the drive-by gangbangers / macho bar fight, the road rager.

I think a 9mm will do fine against all but a doped up wacked-out psycho and the L.A Bank Heist type. All the others prefer to not be injured themselves, the other two need headshots for which the 9 is still a fine choice. Disagree? The Yamam and the SAS are still fans of the 9mm in either the FN MKIII or Glock 19 platform. Works for them although they DO practice mainly the headshot scenario.

[kcshooter]

A .45 ACP retains a standard 100% knock-down when an adversary is hit in the shoulder, while a .357 Magnum offers 160% knock-down power with a shoulder-hit.puh-lease

[Paladin_Hammer]

Well if your in America, I can tell you that its because the .45 ACP is American's favorite caliber pistol cartridge. When we adopted the .45 ACP back in the beginning of the 20th century, we said "no" to the 9x19mm cartridge. The decision to adopt the .45 was based on the war in the Phillipines where we found that anything smaller than a .45 would not penetrate the Bamboo armor wore by our foes, and when it did it wasn't a killing shot. These were .38's (roughly the same size bullet as a 9mm).

When we switched to 9mm in 1985 over the .45 ACP, it wasn't because newer 9mm's had been proven more combat effective, but because the 9mm was NATO standard and we were being pressured poltically to conform. Thus the Beretta 92 became standard.

There is still some resentment in the Military and civilian communities over the switch. Apparently, the Marines, Special Ops groups like Delta and SEALS, still use .45's (in the revered M1911A1) due to complaints about the 9mm stopping power.

None of this is to say the 9mm isn't effective. On the contrary, it works so well that the Japanese refuse to use it because its "Too Accurate", and might cause a political problem for the police and the civilian population. BUT, no one, ANYWHERE on the face of the planet will tell you the .45 ACP isn't a hard-hitter.

[jaysouth]

I have always wondered about the legend of the "doped up" moro warriors wrapped in vines.

The standard arm for the era was a .30-40 Krag rifle. At jungle combat ranges, a couple of inches of 'vines' would not slow down a bullet from one of these rifles.

Back in those days of yore, just who carried a pistol in the army? Certainly not the 'grunts' who were out in the jungle hunted by/hunting the predecessors of Abu Saif. Does anyone believe that any pistol bullet approachs the penetration or knock down of a rifle bullet?

Back to modern day, two to the chest and one to the head transcends any keyboard palaver about caliber-bullet-bullet weight-velocity-whatever.

[22lr]

"A .45 ACP retains a standard 100% knock-down when an adversary is hit in the shoulder, while a .357 Magnum offers 160% knock-down power with a shoulder-hit."


Ever hear of the cop who shot the guy 5 out of 6 times with a .357 mag in the center of mass, and then the guy shot him twice with a 22lr and killed the cop. Just saying that knock-down power is a myth. Heck even a 12ga slug aint going to make someone fall flat on their back. Ya it will kill em pretty good, but you have to remember a single shot from a 22lr can do 5 times the damage of a .357 mag if you put it in the right place.

[jad0110]

I have always wondered about the legend of the "doped up" moro warriors wrapped in vines.

The standard arm for the era was a .30-40 Krag rifle. At jungle combat ranges, a couple of inches of 'vines' would not slow down a bullet from one of these rifles.

As a side note, we often here stories about how 38 Long Colt failed to stop attacking moros. But there were also plenty of examples of 30-40 Krag and 45 Colt failing to stop as well.

As for 9mm, it is worth pointing out that few question the effectiveness of 357 Magnum (say, 125 grains at 1450 fps). But apparently a 124 grain .355 (9mm) round doing 1200 fps is totally useless :confused: .

And as for "knock down" power? Well, this video may be long (9 minutes+), but it is interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCzD5uhSViY

[Hook686]

9mm, .40, .45 all pretty my equal in terms of terminal effect.

[Poor East Texan]

Huh! All this time I thought I had 124gr FED Hydrashoks in my truck gun. But in fact they are 135gr Hydrashoks.

I also have Speer 115gr Golddots, and some Win 115gr JHP.

None are + anything.

I'm staying with the 135s as they are just a wee bit heavier for less goofiness when they hit.

MAY try to pick up some midweight +Ps at some point.

[wanderinwalker]

To the OP: You have a nice new SIG. I'd guess you're just getting envy from those scoffing! ;)

Pistols be they 9,40,45 are ALL underpowered by their very nature and a compromise. It's fine to have favorites and opinions but with the proper ammo they are all far more alike than they are different. Compared to a rifle (even in such a small caliber as say .223!) or a shotgun it's apples and oranges...however you can't very well walk around all day with an M4 or tactical scattergun on your person or on the seat next to you in the truck so they tend to be quite handy for "having something that can work well if used right" As far as "stopping power" That's why God gave us high capacity magazines.-LOL


Agreed! Whenever asked about pistol calibers, I like to remind people they are handguns, NOT cosmic-departiculating super-rays of death. Mindset is too critical to these things. Either a body wants to harm you or just wants something quick. Frankly, I'm not going to count on 1-2 rounds from any handgun to stop something that wants to harm me.

That said, I like having lots of bullets I can put where they need to go. For me, a Glock 17 works fine. And as one fellow at a pistol match once said, "Ah. Got to watch out a the guy with a Glock 17, he probably can shoot it." :cool:

And alternatively, I was at the range a few years ago and some LEOs were practicing/qualifying. One of the girzzled old chiefs sneared about 9mm being a good girls' gun. Until I dropped a magazine through the Glock into the headbox of a silhouette. He shut up and went back to trying to hit things with his .40. :neener:

[SCKimberFan]

I honestly don't know why there is such a debate on this. Use the tool that you have in your toolbox. Keep going until the threat is stopped.

[RDak]

I'm not down on them at all.

The 9mm is a very good medium powered round IMHO.

[kmrcstintn]

just people in general. Police seem to REALLY be down on them. I have a cousin thats a cop, and really ixnayed my gun. and the cops where I went to register it loved the finish, but kinda sneered at the caliber.


I would rather have a slightly less potent caliber that I can place in the chest or head consistently than an overpowered speed demon that causes me to flinch or pull a shot due to anticipating recoil; tell them that it's better to have bullets enter & stop inside a perp than cause lateral or collateral damage & danger to innocent individuals due to missed shots

[mjrodney]

I don't much care what caliber you use, as long as your hits find that 6" x 15" vertical column that extends downward from the top of the head.

Center of Mass need not apply, since on most folks that is below the heart.

Even on a standard NRA Silhouette target, the X is below the heart. A hit at the upper 8 or 9 is more likely to end things quickly.

Two 5 1/2" targets, one set just above the other, is a good approximation of that "golden" spot one should aim for and practice at.

I have every confidence in my .380, my 9mm, my .38SPL and my .45ACP carry weapons, should I hit that spot.

[jaholder1971]

Ask anyone shot with a 9mm what they think of the round.

I know of 3: One doesn't want to talk about the "incident", the other two are dead.

[Meowhead]

I dare anyone that disses my .177 pellet gun to take one in the eye :mad::mad::mad:

EDIT: GLASSES WEARING NERDS NEED NOT APPLY

[jad0110]

Not that I necessarily agree with the following picture (shot placement + penetration are what matter), but it is still worth a good laugh nonetheless.

Some of you 10mm nuts might like to save this one (I found it on the Internet!)
:evil:




http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q139/jad0110/Misc/joke.jpg

[Blues Brother]

HA! LOL! I love it! very funny! :D

[rust collector]

Some of what you are hearing from your law enforcement friends may be from indoctrination by the department and certifying authorities. That is most likely rooted in some well-financed marketing by suppliers anxious to make new sales.

Soon you will be able to get a good deal on 40S&W sidearms, when they are traded to make way for the 5.7 FN or other latest munitions. The new emphasis seems to be on "non-lethal" or "less lethal" options anyway.

Nine mm is more pleasant to shoot, much less expensive, and easier to carry. That makes it a better solution for me. YMMV. Use what makes you happy, but don't rely on others for happiness.

[DOBIE12]

In My Career I Have Worked Quite A Few Shootings And Attended A Fair Number Of Autopsies. The Problem Is Handgun Bullets, Do Not Reliably Expand. Bullet Placement Is Critical. With That Said Make Mine .40s&w Or .45 Acp.

[Aka Zero]

hm.... 8 big bullets, 12 med sized bullets, or 19 big enough bullets....

If the internet would provide me with those often seen ft lbs charts. I think total per clip energy would be higher with 9mm.

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

In My Career I Have Worked Quite A Few Shootings And Attended A Fair Number Of Autopsies. The Problem Is Handgun Bullets, Do Not Reliably Expand. Bullet Placement Is Critical. With That Said Make Mine .40s&w Or .45 Acp.

20 years ago maybe. 5 years ago maybe but today there are plenty of brands with reliable expansion.

Federal LE HST expands at low velocity even through heavy clothing which was the major problem with Hydroshock.

[2075 RAMI]

Hey, I prefer 9mm. I've never needed more. :neener:

[Gator]

I haven't read this entire thread, I figure its mostly "caliber wars" stuff, but I haven't noticed any decrease in the popularity of 9mms, in fact just the opposite. Nines are everywhere and there are good new handguns in that caliber coming out regularly; the Ruger SR9 for instance looks very good.





I'm even thinking of buying one for my .45's to laugh at. :neener:

[kurts_armory]

you can get higher velocities with a 9mm than with a 45 ACP, it is cheap to shoot, and it is light recoiling. i think it is a fine cartridge for most purposes. i have a taurus pt92 9mm, it will be there until i can find a reasonably priced hk usp40, or maybe a 10mm someday.

[coyotehitman]

I anticipate a resurgence in demand for the 9mm with the cost of ammo these days.

[AnaxImperator]

FWIW - on this and another board I frequent there's a lot of
interest in 1911 platforms in 9MM Luger right now

My own carry handgun is a 9mm based on the FN 1903 & 1911, a Tokarev TT-33. I'm very practiced with it, and I'm reasonably sure I can make a solid hit(s) that'll perforate a critical vital organ(s), resulting in a suitable and quick end to a very bad situation. It may not be the newest, most advanced/versatile, or concealable semiauto available.... but I like it, and it'll fire every time I pull the trigger.
If I were to pick up a .45ACP, .40S&W, or .357 Sig handgun, I wouldn't feel any more comfortable or confident with it than a 9mm until I had attained a sufficient level of proficiency with the firearm.
That being said, however, I'd still prefer the 9mm because of it's low recoil impulse, making it easier to place those all-important follow-up shots.... because if I do have to shoot, I'm not stopping with just one (or even two), unless of course the first does the job.

One thing about the .45ACP that doesn't sit well with me.... FWIU, even a modern high-performance .45 JHP doesn't like to reliably expand at the low-ish speeds encountered when fired from a -3" barrel. Granted, a .451" hole is technically better than a .35" hole, but a non-expanded .45ACP IMHO is less desirable than a .50 expanded HST 9mm. However, given a 4/5" barrel .45ACP handgun, and my reservations in that area dissipate, yet I still like the lower recoil of the 9mm in a semiauto handgun.
Yet my own stated reasoning for liking the 9mm makes me somewhat of a hypocrite. My absolute favorite handgun caliber is the .357 Magnum, and it's not known for being a pussycat in the recoil department. But then again, my reason for liking it is the same reason why many prefer the .45ACP over the 9mm; the potential for ending a fight with a single shot, even though there are recorded instances of hopped-up BGs taking however-many to the chest & living, regardless of caliber.

One video I remember seeing is of a Highway Patrolman sending 4 (or more, I forget) 9mm rounds into the upper chest of a very agitated man. The dashboard cam recorded the lawman's attacker as he kept charging, even after being shot, and wasn't subdued until several backup officers arrived and pig-piled (heh-heh... um....) the BG so restraints could be employed. The video's narrator then related that the man had been a body-builder, and had been so mentally unhinged that his thick, tensed-up muscles stopped/slowed the 9mm rounds, and that the man was treated & released 24hrs after being shot.
Had the man been of normal state-of-mind (subjective; nobody attacking a cop is sane IMHO) and of normal build, the police 9mm (likely a good JHP) would've been entirely sufficient given their velocity & expansion. But seeing as how the man's mere muscles stopped a speeding 9mm, I kinda doubt a slower, fatter .45ACP would've had much better effect.... or maybe not.

There are many uncontrollable & unknown variables in effect when employing a handgun cartridge in self-defense, so I won't consider one better than another, nor scoff at someone's choice in handgun.... if it's chosen for the right reasons; if not, then I just scoff at them, not the handgun. :D

The 9mm IS a European police round, designed to stop European criminals. Historically they have not been known for toughness or determined attack, following a wound of that magnitude.

I don't think this statement was implying that Euro BGs are weak based on wording.

[hhb]

I think minds are starting to change. The cost of .40S&W and .45acp causes heart flucations for people that haven't bought ammo in awhile.

[Blues Brother]

HA! thats funny. NOw just because the ammo costs are high, the 9mms will all of a sudden become "stronger" than they used to be. ;)

[rollback88]

Hi, my name is John, and I am a recovered anti-9-ite.

9mm is my choice for home and personal defense because of the quality of ammo available now (for me, 147gr HydraShok) with ballistics comparable to 45acp and 44spl, and being able to put 10 rounds in the compact and 17 in the full size M&Ps.

--jcd

[Blues Brother]

(everyone say together) HI John.

[Legionnaire]

I'm not "everybody." While I do prefer the .40 S&W in a semiauto, I also carry a 9mm, a .357 revolver, and a .32 ACP semiauto, depending on situation. I do not feel undergunned with a 9mm.

[jaysouth]

Anybody from the Indiana State Police here?

Some time ago, they traded their .40S&Ws in on 9mm, not the other way around.

[Lonestar49]

...

Personally, I think many get it confused as too, what works for them should work for all.. very tunneled vision IMHO.

I have a P220/45 as my office gun, garage gun, a P229/40 for my work/ccw gun, and a SA EMP 9mm for the same purpose but for much lighter clothing type affairs..

Last, but not least, my night house, night stand, and night yard gun is a Sig P229R CT 9mm..

What works best for me is just that, nothing else, nothing more, except for my 2 shotguns, of course.. ;)


Ls