I love Utah. Peeping Toms, not so much.


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Rugerlvr
August 28, 2008, 01:50 AM
Good story, nobody got hurt, but the guy was reckless with his warning shot, and what's with the wife feeling bad about it??

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4120128


Homeowner catches peeping Tom
August 27th, 2008 @ 9:51pm
By Sandra Yi

Police have arrested a Cache County man accused of being a peeping Tom. That's not a major crime, but it's how the man got caught that makes this an unusual story.

The suspect was prowling around a house in Providence around 10 o'clock Monday night. He quickly learned that the homeowner had a gun and wasn't afraid to use it.

Ken Sim said, "There were just kind of some tapping sounds at the back of the house and on our back window." When Sim heard the noises outside his house Monday night, he reacted. He's been on alert ever since a neighbor reported a prowler last month.

Lurking outside was 35-year-old Jason Benson, who would soon discover he picked the wrong house. That's because Sim is a gun enthusiast. "I decided I would get in my gun safe and get my gun," Sim said.

Armed with a 9 millimeter handgun, Sim turned on the lights, opened the back door, and found Benson outside. "I didn't see him up against the window like this, but more of just backing away from the window," Sim said.

He chased Benson to the side of the house then ordered him to get down on the ground. "I don't know what he thought, but he started getting back up and coming towards me and making an excuse, and kind of almost in a threatened manner towards me, so I fired into the air," Sim said.

Sim kept Benson lying on the ground face down with his arms out and palms facing upward until police arrived.

Benson's ear and cheek prints are still visible on the window. "He's peeking through there and watching us watch TV. It's really disturbing," Sim said.

No one knows what Benson was really up to, but Sim is pretty sure prowlers will stay away after this. "You can't just let people look at you and take advantage of you like that. It's why you do things like have guns to protect your family sometimes," he said.

As this was happening, Sim's wife and neighbors called police, who arrested Benson for lewdness.

Benson's wife told us she had no idea what her husband was doing, and she feels bad that this happened.

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mordechaianiliewicz
August 28, 2008, 01:56 AM
I imagine she feels bad for the folks he was doing this to. And of course, her husband you know, being now known locally as a big perv.

Rugerlvr
August 28, 2008, 02:00 AM
Whoops, I misread the story. I thought it was Sim's wife that was feeling bad.

chris in va
August 28, 2008, 02:01 AM
and what's with the wife feeling bad about it??


Doesn't matter, sometimes people have a conscience about shooting at another human being, regardless of their intent. I'd probably feel the same way.

RobNDenver
August 28, 2008, 11:24 AM
I am just happy that the warning shot didn't kill someone. BG in jail, Victim protected, deterrence in place for when BG is out on bail. . .

Psssniper
August 28, 2008, 11:34 AM
Firing a warning shot. Would you fire into the air or into the ground?
I think that I'd go the ground route.

TallPine
August 28, 2008, 11:40 AM
Firing a warning shot. Would you fire into the air or into the ground?


COM ;)

scrat
August 28, 2008, 11:40 AM
That was the first thing i thought of. Especially if you shoot it in some area in close approximation to where the guy is. In the ground of course

Old Grump
August 28, 2008, 12:12 PM
Gas line, phone line, water line, child's toy, tool, rock, ricochet, foot, pet, lots of reasons not to fire into ground, no reason to fire into the air and no reason to fire a warning shot. They had his face print on the window they could find him anytime. He might not have been a peeping Tom, he may have been checking the place out for a potential target. Only time you shoot is if you are protecting a life, yours or somebody else's. This guy wanted to run he should have been allowed to run. If he really was coming towards him in a threatening manner then he should have been shot. Anybody have any idea where that bullet came down?

DigitalWarrior
August 28, 2008, 12:33 PM
I would have shot the ground.

I will take the risk of a slug penetrating a few inches of earth over a round loosed into the sky.

I generally prefer not to shoot people and will give them every chance to live and repent I can.

ambidextrous1
August 28, 2008, 12:43 PM
Warning shots are a very bad idea. If the perp is armed and returns fire, it may turn out that the person firing first was the agressor, and the other party fired in self defense.

Many other considerations make the warning shot a bad idea. Your first shot should be justifiable; aim for COM.

Freelance Tax Collector
August 28, 2008, 01:03 PM
Anybody have any idea where that bullet came down?

Depends on where he was facing. To the east it would've gone into the mountains/cache national forest. To the south it would've gone into Nibley, Hyrum or one of those towns. To the West it would've gone into the new Macy's store complex they've put up. To the North it would've gone into Cliffside/The island.

So hopefully to the south. Freakin Hyrumaniacs..... :evil:

SJG26
August 28, 2008, 01:22 PM
"but he started getting back up and coming towards me and making an excuse, and kind of almost in a threatened manner towards me, so I fired into the air," Sim said.":confused::confused:


Advancing towards me:what:??!!----the only air I would fire into is between me and the perp-----as TallPine said.............COM !

DigitalWarrior
August 28, 2008, 01:33 PM
I would literally bet my life that if the person was 20 feet away and I was at the alert position, then I could fire into the dirt (where I was aiming anyway) and put the red dot center mass before the person could either close the gap or pull a concealed weapon. Of course there would be no warning if he was running...

Others might not feel comfortable with that bet, and you would be fully justified in killing a person.

As I said, I just don't want to kill anyone unless I really really have to.

Rxxdoc
August 28, 2008, 01:38 PM
If he advanced towards me, I would have no choice.

But what a choice to make, having to take a life.

But I guess it's the perp's (or perv's) choice to advance and he is responsible also.

MJRW
August 28, 2008, 01:47 PM
Advancing towards me??!!----the only air I would fire into is between me and the perp-----as TallPine said.............COM !

Really? The situation got handled without killing the bad guy and you're suggesting it be done different? While I disagree with firing into the air, a warning shot appears to have been the right call. I can't imagine a better scenario than stopping the bad guy with no one hurt.

NotPbFree
August 28, 2008, 05:36 PM
I am with MJRW on this one. I once caught someone outside my neighbors house. Turned out to be a another somewhat confused neighbor, a pentecostal minister, 80 years old, definitely not a peeping tom. He had backed though the neighbors yard with his car in the middle of the night and was checking for damages. Caused a big ruckus.

Standing Wolf
August 28, 2008, 08:35 PM
He's peeking through there and watching us watch TV.

Three hundred and eleventy-nineteen miles beyond desperate for entertainment.

TallPine
August 28, 2008, 09:09 PM
Well, I guess maybe his wife won't let him have the remote control at home ...? :p

Seriously - what if the guy is a serial rapist/murderer and just hasn't been caught yet ???? :uhoh:

It's probably just as well that I didn't catch the guy who was creeping around our yard - or maybe not? What's he done since then?

Atticus
August 28, 2008, 09:13 PM
I will take the risk of a slug penetrating a few inches of earth over a round loosed into the sky.

That could be risky in some yards. My grass/sod hides a layer of rocks, brick and clay. That warning shot could end up in your leg -with a BG coming at you. Tough choice...at least it worked this time.

TallPine
August 28, 2008, 09:15 PM
In Montana, a "warning shot" is considered "deadly force" by statute. In for a penny, in for a pound.

dalepres
August 28, 2008, 09:23 PM
Mr. Sim is lucky to be alive. I agree with ambidextrous1. No warning shot. No shot at all until necessary and then COM.

I was robbed as teenager by a thug talking quickly as he approached even more quickly. Before I realized what was happening I was KO'd by a glass 32oz Pepsi bottle across my ear. Approaching while talking is very threatening behavior.

This story gives me the idea that instead of yelling, "Freeze!" or something similar in a situation like Mr. Sim found himself in, one should yell, "Freeze or die!" I'm going to rehearse that phrase. And if the other person approaches, there's only one more step between him and his Maker.

dalepres
August 28, 2008, 09:25 PM
That could be risky in some yards. My grass/sod hides a layer of rocks, brick and clay. That warning shot could end up in your leg -with a BG coming at you. Tough choice...at least it worked this time.

Another good argument for COM. The body and a good defense round work together to stop a bullet as if they were made for each other.

boostedxt
August 29, 2008, 12:02 AM
here is the thing...I think in this case a warning shot was a good thing. However I personally think this no longer becomes self defense when he walked out his house to find the guy. if the guy had been in his house and walking towards him or me in a manner stated...sorry in the choice of my life, my SO's or my kids....you lose.

Joe

dalepres
August 30, 2008, 11:03 AM
However I personally think this no longer becomes self defense when he walked out his house to find the guy. if the guy had been in his house and walking towards him or me in a manner stated...sorry in the choice of my life, my SO's or my kids....you lose.

So you're saying that a man should hide in the house and wait for a prowler to come in and threaten his family? Going outside to investigate a prowler does not surrender your right to defend yourself; it in no way makes you the aggressor in the situation.

I can approach you and argue with you and try to arrest you (citizen's arrest) or to order you off my property for trespassing and still you do not have the right to attack me and I will defend myself if you do. In fact, I can call you every name in the book and still have the right to defend myself if you physically attack me.

SCKimberFan
August 30, 2008, 11:33 AM
However I personally think this no longer becomes self defense when he walked out his house to find the guy. if the guy had been in his house and walking towards him or me in a manner stated...sorry in the choice of my life, my SO's or my kids....you lose.

Inside/Outside, it doesn't matter. If you are on my property and pose a threat to me, I will DEFEND myself and my family. He loses nothing at all by confronting the perp outside of his house, he is still on his property. It is still self-defense.

JImbothefiveth
August 30, 2008, 11:45 AM
Well, the warning shot worked, and everybody survived the encounter, and the perp instead of the victim is off to prison.:) I would have fired in to the air, so as not to injure myself. Of course, not if the guy is too close. :uhoh:

robmkivseries70
August 30, 2008, 12:21 PM
Hi All,
I worked with a guy, back in the 70's, who spotted a peeper at his window, went to get the 12 Ga. and couldn't find any shells. So, he picked up one of those Gallon glass milk jugs (1950's), walked up behind the peeper, who must have been in a bit of a trance, and broke the milk jug over his head :evil: then, called the police to come get him.:eek:
Best,
Rob

Rugerlvr
August 30, 2008, 01:06 PM
So you're saying that a man should hide in the house and wait for a prowler to come in and threaten his family?

I imagine he's saying that he should have called the police immediately, and let them do the job. If he felt threatened, he could have waited inside with his gun at the ready.

dalepres
August 30, 2008, 01:34 PM
I imagine he's saying that he should have called the police immediately, and let them do the job. If he felt threatened, he could have waited inside with his gun at the ready.

That is not the police's job: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

And, if he waited inside with his gun at the ready, if the criminal came into the house he just let the pervert get that much closer to his wife and children.

Zedo
August 30, 2008, 02:09 PM
Yeah, I like the line of reason -- "You fire a 'warning shot' and the perp has the justification to shoot back in self-defense."

-- Except the perp is TRESPASSING.

It's going to be fundamentally impossible to support a legal defense of "self defense" in a situation where you're firing to protect yourself from a property owner upon whose property you're tresspassing -- particularly when you're being charged with voyeurism or some other sexually predatory act.

"Warning shots" -- They give the other person legal cause to defend themselves against an armed threat. If you're justified in shooting, then shoot center of mass. If you're not justified in shooting center of mass, then you're not justified in shooting.

And NEVER shoot "into the air." You could hit an airplane.

Elza
August 30, 2008, 03:42 PM
I don’t think that I would say “freeze or die!” Depending upon where you live it might be construed that you intended to kill the guy. “Freeze or get shot” would sound more like you were trying to stop the threat as opposed to intentionally killing someone.

Nor would I go outside to check things out. This seems a very good way to walk into a bullet or a knife. I’ll stay inside and wait for the cops to handle it. But then we have the luxury of a three minute response time for the cops in our town. If I lived out in the bonnies and had to wait for God knows how long for a Sheriff’s Deputy to show up I might look at things differently.

Old Grump
August 30, 2008, 04:27 PM
I do live in the boonies, there have been break ins, beatings and murders in the area, just not as often as happens in a big city because our population density is lower. I live 7 miles from a supermax prison, meth is a problem in southwest Wisconsin. I would have warned him once and if he went any direction except down on his face or directly away from me he would find out old people with guns have no sense of humor when it comes to protecting family and property. Warning shots are a waste of ammo and gives a juiced up criminal time to react while your gun is pointed in some other direction than at him.

Zedo
August 30, 2008, 04:58 PM
I would have fired in to the air, so as not to injure myself. Of course, not if the guy is too close.

NEVER fire a gun into the air.

Them's the basic safety rules. Besides which, it's illegal in most places.

jonmerritt
August 31, 2008, 12:21 AM
You step on my property and threaten to, or try to do me bodily harm, even in my yard, you are in a world of hurt. You as in a BG.

jonmerritt
August 31, 2008, 12:23 AM
Three minute response time? You must live right next door to the police station! satire, couldn't help myself.

dalepres
August 31, 2008, 12:43 AM
I don’t think that I would say “freeze or die!” Depending upon where you live it might be construed that you intended to kill the guy. “Freeze or get shot” would sound more like you were trying to stop the threat as opposed to intentionally killing someone.

Good point... changing my routine now:

Freeze or I'll shoot!
Freeze or I'll shoot!
Freeze or I'll shoot!
Freeze or I'll shoot!
BANG

EDIT: Oh, wait. If we get to BANG, who cares what I said before that? It's my word against... well... no ones. LOL. But I still like your idea better. It really does represent the point.

Rugerlvr
August 31, 2008, 01:08 AM
dalepres, In Cache County, Utah, the police are going to come on a peeping tom call. This isn't DC.

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