I need less spread from my Mossberg


PDA






heavyshooter
August 30, 2008, 04:54 AM
I am trying to find ammo that will allow for tighter groups from a Mossberg 500A Persuader 20" barrel. I am getting more spread than I would like from a home defense gun. It does not take a choke so I am trying to find the best ammo. Does any one know what shell this gun likes (manufacturer, shot size, shot type, shell length)? Please consider the fact that I am using it for Home Defense.

If you enjoyed reading about "I need less spread from my Mossberg" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ugaarguy
August 30, 2008, 05:30 AM
What have you already tried? In two different Remingtons the Federal Premium 9 pellet plated 00 buck and Hornady TAP FPD 9 pellet 00 buck have given me the best patterns. Those two loads also get constant reports of tight patterns here on THR as well. Start there and see how it does.

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 30, 2008, 05:55 AM
I'd try some of the Federal stuff as mentioned with the Flitecontrol wad. Make sure to get the stuff that mentions the Flitecontrol wad on the box.

MAX100
August 30, 2008, 06:56 AM
You can always have the bbl tapped for choke tubes. All of my defense shotguns have had choke tubes installed. Modified choke in my opinion is the best all around choke for tight buckshot patterns. I have gotten good results with Improved Modified choke also.


GC

mgkdrgn
August 30, 2008, 09:22 AM
HeavyShooter,

How far away is your target? An HD shooting is going to be from what, 20 feet max? At that distance, I would personally like my pattern to fill a doorway.

What is yours like?

Fred Fuller
August 30, 2008, 09:38 AM
Changing ammo should do the trick for you, cheaper than modifying the gun too. Try any load with FliteControl wads (Federal or Hornady) as mentioned above and see if things don't improve.

Every barrel does its own thing pattern wise, the trick is to find a load that gives you the results you want. If nothing available does, THEN worry about changing the internal geometry of the barrel. Extending the forcing cone is usually about the most reliable mod to improve buckshot patterns, and it's one of the less expensive too.

hth,

lpl

ATAShooter
August 30, 2008, 09:49 AM
Find the point in your home that you can see the farthest. Pattern your gun at that distance. More than likely in a self defense situation, the intruder will be in the same room ( a way shorter distance ) so the pattern should be pretty darn tight. In the event of a long shot ( say from the bedroom door to the front door ) that's where the pattern will come into play. Other than ammo, lengthen the forcing cone or have her done for chokes ( Nuline guns does it usually 75 - 100 bucks ).

auschip
August 30, 2008, 11:00 AM
What spread are you getting at what distance?

Omaha-BeenGlockin
August 30, 2008, 11:31 AM
How about 3in mag--00 buck---with 15 pellets???

green country shooter
August 30, 2008, 11:41 AM
There is usually more variation among brands than types. Buy a 5 round package of five or six 000 buck shells and test them out.

I also would like to know what kind of spread you are getting that is too large. My shotguns shoot a pretty tight buck spread at home defense distances.

4thPointOfContact
August 30, 2008, 11:42 AM
As others have said, try a few different brands.

For me, Federal's LE132-00 buck reduced recoil loads with Flitecontrol gives a sub 6-inch pattern at 25 yards.

heavyshooter
August 30, 2008, 12:29 PM
"How far away is your target? An HD shooting is going to be from what, 20 feet max? At that distance, I would personally like my pattern to fill a doorway." -- mgkdrgn



I agree; that is a reasonable expectation from a shotgun. But, I need for it to have good grouping out to about 25-30 yards. I may have noticed the spread because the guy next to me was shooting a shotgun (okay, it was a Remington 870:rolleyes:) and I prefered his results.

heavyshooter
August 30, 2008, 12:38 PM
"For me, Federal's LE132-00 buck reduced recoil loads with Flitecontrol gives a sub 6-inch pattern at 25 yards." -- 4thPointOfContact


The Federal Flitecontrol sounds promising. At 25 yards I am getting 18 inch patterns! At 40 yards it is 40 inch patterns!!! I am aware that I will probably not be shooting 25 yards with an HD shotgun, but if I can get a 6 inch pattern, then I want it.

357wheelgunner
August 30, 2008, 01:27 PM
The low recoil 9 pellet loads from Federal and Remington pattern well in my 20" IC Remington 870.

I was told that its because the 9 pellet loads stack more uniformly in the shell, 3 in a layer, than other loads. Also, the slower velocity probably deforms the shot less.

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 30, 2008, 01:44 PM
heavyshooter, here are some patterns I did last summer with an 18" IMP CYL barrel on an 870.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=284837

At 15 yards, the Federal stuff had about 5" spread. Rio Royal, which appears to be the maker of Wolf Buckshot loads, was 13-15" at that distance.

Steve C
August 30, 2008, 02:41 PM
Lower velocity loads spread less so you could try some reduced recoil buckshot loads. If you are shooting bird shot and trying to hunt with your security shot gun, for whatever reason :confused:, your best bet will be to get a hunting barrel with chokes if you don't have the extended mag tube OR get another shot gun designed for hunting. Either option will be about the same price as putting choke tubes in your riot barrel.

You really have the wrong tool for what you are asking for. You want a more precise point of impact for defense, use slugs.

rantingredneck
August 30, 2008, 03:06 PM
I'll chime in as another fan (recent convert actually) to the Flite Control Federal shells. Good stuff there.

I've also had good results with Remington Managed Recoil and decent results with Remington Express 9 pellet standard.

Chihuahua Floyd
August 30, 2008, 03:35 PM
Heavyshooter,
Like someone else asked, what have you tried?

Do you want smaller patterns or better pattern density?

If you can work with better pattern density try smaller shot. Not #8 or 9 but #1 or even #4 Buckshot. I don't even have anything larger than #1 in the house. Never needed it, deer don't know the difference. BG shouldn't either.
For HD I want to saturate the area with lead. # 1 BS is still .30 caliber, and you get 20 pellets in a 2 3/4" 12 ga.
If you are looking for a 6" pattern at 25 yds you will have almost no spread at true Home Defense range. Might as well us a rifle.
My HD creed is fill the doorway from across the room.
5 rounds times 20 pellets = DRT

Dave McCracken
August 30, 2008, 04:10 PM
First, measure the longest possible shot opp in thy domicile and add one yard for GPs. Test buck loads at that range and get the one that will print a 5-8" pattern. Probably it will be a top line 00 load, but it could be a 1 buck load.

Second, get the folks in the house up to speed on putting that 5-8" pattern where it needs to go. Center mass. Why 5-8"? Because the forensics folks tell me that's most effective.

As for the "Fill the doorway" folks, go stand in the closest doorway. Note all the air between thee and the frame.

Catch my drift?....

heavyshooter
August 30, 2008, 04:51 PM
Jorg,

Your photos are encouraging. The Rio Royal photos are indicative of what I am getting now :barf:. Thanks for taking a second shot to confirm the spread. I am going to try the Federal Premium Tactical with flight control wad. You guys are a big help.

Heavy

Gunsnrovers
August 30, 2008, 04:59 PM
All my riot guns have had the forcing cones lengthened. That has helped and it shows up in my before and after patterns.

I like the Hornady TAP ammo as well. YMMV. Get a box or two of some different quality ammo and see what YOUR gun likes. :)

heavyshooter
August 30, 2008, 05:04 PM
"...get the folks in the house up to speed on putting that 5-8" pattern where it needs to go. Center mass. Why 5-8"? Because the forensics folks tell me that's most effective.
As for the 'Fill the doorway' folks, go stand in the closest doorway. Note all the air between thee and the frame." -- Dave McCracken


Dave and I must have gone to the same school of shotgun HD. He describes my view perfectly. Steve C I am not hunting with my persuader. I believe that 5-8" patterns are more persuasive [pun intended :)]. Consequently I want to tighten my 18" patterns.

oneounceload
August 30, 2008, 07:33 PM
If you're not hunting, then why are you worried about patterns at 25 and 40 yards??...At that range, you are pushing the "SD" range, at least as far as prosecutors are going to be concerned. At inside-the-home distances, which might actually be about 25 FEET, I know MY cylinder choke and 00 will be lethal and tight enough.

If you really want 6" groups, get a lousy 357 and fire 6 shots at the BG... ;)

heavyshooter
August 31, 2008, 12:59 AM
"If you're not hunting, then why are you worried about patterns at 25 and 40 yards??...At that range, you are pushing the "SD" range, at least as far as prosecutors are going to be concerned. At inside-the-home distances, which might actually be about 25 FEET, I know MY cylinder choke and 00 will be lethal and tight enough." -- oneounceload



I mentioned 25 and 40 yards to give you an appreciation of the spread. I was asked what the pattern was and the only two measured distances I have are 25 and 40 yds. If I get it down to a 5-8" pattern at 20 yards I will be happy.

I believe that proper shotgun HD is 15-20 yards. The distance from my bedroom to my kitchen is 23 yards, not feet! It is not a huge house but it is a long hallway. By the time it gets to the bad guy I have an 18-22" pattern. Sure, I'll probably hit him but will I shut him down? If he is crazy enough to break into my home, then he will probably be armed. I am not trying to find myself at the "OK Corral." Hitting him with two spheres of shot may annoy him. I once saw an intoxicated man with two .32 auto rounds in him wrestle with his shooter until the police came!!! I have to resonate with Dave McCracken again. I want a pattern that is not too small, but not too large. A 6 inch pattern at 15 yards is my goal. And based on Jorg's findings, I am not being unreasonable.

As far as the prosecuters perspective is concerned, I find it odd that my proximity to a recognized burglar should be on my mind while he is in my home. Essentially, you are telling me that I have to get as close to the BG as possible to avoid being accused of impropriety. I pray to God that I never have to use lethal force on a burglar (I mean that sincerly), but I am baffled by the fact that I have to close the gap between us to avoid trial. My philosophy of HD is simple; stay away from him and shoot straight! I can sincerly say that I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. Sorry if that was too dramatic ;)

mgkdrgn
August 31, 2008, 09:44 AM
Heavyshooter,

"By the time it gets to the bad guy I have an 18-22" pattern."

That sounds pretty good to me! Think of it this way; if you are filling an 18-22" circle with 00 buck, whats your chance of NOT hitting something vital?

Can you say the same for a 6" or smaller circle? The delivered energy is going to be EXACTLY the same. Think of the pattern as "fire for effect".

357wheelgunner
August 31, 2008, 10:18 AM
An 18" pattern on target isnt' acceptable at shorter ranges.

You have to be able to, at short ranges, be able to place the payload where you want it to. With a 6" pattern, if you're aiming for center of mass, at least one pellet is probably going to break the spine, even if you are 4" off center with your aim. If you have an 18-22" pattern you're indescriminantly throwing shot into an area, praying on odds that one will go where you want it to. Looking at my torso I can pick 9 places that I'd take a pellet and be able to make it to the hospitol, based on what I learned in my brief time going to school for my EMT license. Looking at a 6" circle in the center of my chest, things aren't looking so well...

4thPointOfContact
August 31, 2008, 04:16 PM
One more thing you could try ......

I tested some flechette rounds last month and found they had an 8-foot pattern at 15 yards. That should fill a doorway:what:.



(Okay, I'm just kidding, sorta.)
We did test some flechette rounds.
We did get 8-foot patters at 15 yards.
Unfortunately an 8-foot circle has about 50 square-foot of room inside and there are only about 20 flechettes in a 12 guage round. Them's ain't good odds.
Further, flechettes are so light that they lose energy too rapidly, at 7-yards a flechette penetrated a level IIA vest.....all the way up to the fins, or about 1.5 inches deep. That's a bit shy of the minimum penetration the DOJ recommends, I believe. They bounced off a plastic bucked from the Home Despot and we found more than half laying on the cement in front of the 'target'.

kingjoey
August 31, 2008, 05:35 PM
Our KA-1212 brake/suppressor unit substantially tightens shot patterns by dumping off the gas pressure from behind the wad before it goes free-flight. They are normally difficult to install on the 20" Moss500A but we came up with a really novel installation method and bought a new Mossberg to try it on. Shotgun should be done around next Friday. Sorry about the crappy picture, but we installed a KA-1212BR on the barrel, re-radiused the barrel lug to match the attachment, silversoldered it to the attachment, then sandblasted and parkerized the barrel. We'll have some better pics later this week after we refinish the parts.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/kingjoey/KA%20Stuff/082608023.jpg

The finished product will be more like this but with the lug attached to the KA-1212 directly

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y99/kingjoey/KA%20Stuff/KA-72608050.jpg

proud2deviate
August 31, 2008, 07:21 PM
The Federal Flite Control stuff works well for me. I bought the 9 pellet standard velocity stuff. Out of my 870 police, 20" IC barrel, it would put all 9 pellets on a 9" paper plate at 25 yards. At 50 yards, it would put 2 pellets on a plate with interesting regularity (five shots, five plates, two pellets each. I should have brought bigger targets to figure out where the other seven were going.) Flite Control is great :)

If you start shopping for slugs, the Federal Tru Ball slugs are good (granted, I got acceptable groups with Wal-Mart value pack stuff, but the Tru Ball slugs tightened my groups noticeably.) Not just marketing hype :cool:

Jeff F
September 1, 2008, 01:17 AM
I once saw an intoxicated man with two .32 auto rounds in him wrestle with his shooter until the police came!!!

Thats not very encouraging, I carry a .32 acp quite often!

357wheelgunner
September 1, 2008, 10:04 AM
A guy who was shot 13 times with a .32 (6+1 rounds in the gun, drug dealer reloaded and fired a second magazine in a deal gone bad) in the chest and abdomen drove himself to the local hospitol. None of the rounds penetrated deep enough, he lived.

Gunsnrovers
September 1, 2008, 10:36 AM
Don't buy a .32...

Don't buy a .32 because if you do, you'll notice they are small and handy.
And if you notice they are small and handy, you'll want to carry it.
And if you carry it, you may need to use it.
And if you use it, you may shoot someone.
And if you shoot someone, you may hit them with a bullet.
And if you hit them with a bullet, you will make them angry.
Andi if you make them angry, they may walk up to you, take away your .32, and beat you death with it.

Something I heard a long time ago that seemed appropriate here.:D

heavyshooter
September 3, 2008, 02:44 AM
"If you have an 18-22" pattern you're indescriminantly throwing shot into an area, praying on odds that one will go where you want it to." -- 357wheelgunner


This is all I'm trying to say.

scythefwd
September 3, 2008, 03:19 AM
25 yards?? hell, my house isn't even that long. At 25 yards, you guys realize that you are talking 75 ft. Then again, that just means I don't have that far to shoot :) My longest field of view is maybe 75ft diagonally through about a 1ft gap. I have to wait till an intruder is within 20ft to go to town, but thats ok... my dogs just get first dibs :)

scythefwd
September 3, 2008, 03:22 AM
gunsnrovers,
What about the .32 H&R mag? That supposedly has more pop than the .38 spl doesn't it:)

A .32 is still better than a .22 .

RaisedByWolves
September 3, 2008, 03:24 AM
+1 for the Fed with flite control wads!





I have a brandy new 590A1 20" cylinder BBL and got 10-11" strings, not groups, Strings, from my gun with this ammo. There was a clear horizontal line of holes across the paperman 10-11" wide at 25yrds.


I was very happy with this result compared to the 18-24" groups (roundish)from Remington OO buck.


BTW, there isint much air around me when I stand in a door way, sorry :p.


.

heavyshooter
September 3, 2008, 07:06 AM
"A .32 is still better than a .22 ." -- scythefwd


Not necessarily. A .32 may be a larger projectile, but it may not have the same penetration as a .22. A flesh wound is far less effective than a deep hole. The .22 is the ice pick of firearms; when used on a human. ;)

Scoutsout2645
September 3, 2008, 01:19 PM
4thPointOfContact:
For me, Federal's LE132-00 buck reduced recoil loads with Flitecontrol gives a sub 6-inch pattern at 25 yards.

+1
I carry these rounds at work, and they're what I use at home. I'm very comfortable putting all the pellets into a headshot at 25 yds, and at most HD distances you can be surgical with these rounds.

Scoutsout2645
September 3, 2008, 01:29 PM
357Wheelgunner:
A guy who was shot 13 times with a .32 (6+1 rounds in the gun, drug dealer reloaded and fired a second magazine in a deal gone bad) in the chest and abdomen drove himself to the local hospitol. None of the rounds penetrated deep enough, he lived

I also saw car-camera footage of a guy that juped a Trooper, was shot COM multiple times at 7 yds and less by a .357 Magnum. BG kept attacking, killed the Trooper with a shot that went thru his vest's armhole, ran off and was later captured (survived the incident). I don't exactly recall, but I want to say the BG had a .32 or .380.

Anecdotes can be found for any round, and I'd rather have the .357 (or .40 or .45), but a .32 can be lethal too. You just need to be more careful and accurate w/ shot placement.

If you enjoyed reading about "I need less spread from my Mossberg" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!