Scary' intruder drill leaves Phillipsburg,NJ teachers upset, officials assured


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SJG26
August 30, 2008, 03:33 PM
http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/today/index.ssf/2008/08/scary_intruder_drill_leaves_ph.html

"A group of elementary teachers gathered for a workshop at Phillipsburg Early Childhood Learning Center got a shock Friday when a gunman burst into the facility library.

The man, yelling obscenities, squeezed off several shots, prompting those present to run for cover and pray for their lives.

They found out later that the gunman was an actor and the shots fired were blanks, both part of a "hostile intruder drill" organized by the Phillipsburg School District and police department."

Two lucky notes for the actor:

1. PRNJ - 1000x 0% chance of anyone being armed.
2. School=Defenseless Victim Zone.

Further observation:
"The man, yelling obscenities, squeezed off several shots, prompting those present to run for cover and pray for their lives.

The teachers had been trained how to react in such a circumstance and used what they learned effectively during the exercise, Chando said.

Town police Chief Edward Mirenda also praised teachers' performance, saying, "Teachers did a great job and reacted as they were trained."

Trained = Baaaaaaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaaaaaa Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I look forward to the day where the story includes:

"Mr. Z- a teacher at the school - reacting to the alleged maniac - promptly took a metal folding chair and beat the maniac senseless rendering him unconscious and near death:evil:

Unfortunately, any heroic action would be met with loss of employment at the very least, massive legal defense fees and potential arrest and sentencing!

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SCKimberFan
August 30, 2008, 03:36 PM
The teachers had been trained how to react in such a circumstance and used what they learned effectively during the exercise, Chando said.

So they are training them to cower? How many will be killed when everyone runs away? That's effective??? :what:

mgkdrgn
August 30, 2008, 03:38 PM
Thar be one mo-ronic school admin in NJ that ought to be looking for a new line of work.

JDoe
August 30, 2008, 03:42 PM
Stupid idea not to inform teachers about this "intruder drill" ahead of time.

I'm predicting resignations, lawsuits and much grief for those responsible.

Hoppy590
August 30, 2008, 03:46 PM
these drills are a good way for some "role player" to get killed.

jagugator
August 30, 2008, 03:49 PM
I can't believe they actually talked someone into bursting into a room full of people with a gun full of blanks. :what:

Now that is some stupid.

springmom
August 30, 2008, 03:50 PM
To the devil with the role player. It's a good way for a teacher to have a heart attack. Wonder if that ever crossed anyone's mind.

Every time I think I've read the absolutely stupidest thing a public school administration can concoct, someone proves me wrong (unfortunately).

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Springmom

lacoochee
August 30, 2008, 03:52 PM
Wow, just wow, All I can say is that is if I had been waiting outside for my wife to come out of the meeting that cop would be dead or in the hospital. Had I heard shots and screaming or seen a masked gunman entering the building, I would have grabbed my truck gun like all normal people have (okay normal for us :neener:) and just shot the guy at the first opportunity. Hopefully, before he had engaged any targets in the building. At the very worst my wife would be safe or at least have the chance to run and I would be dead, as it should be. Maybe that's why I have never heard of anything like this being done in Florida.

Elza
August 30, 2008, 03:52 PM
SCKimberFan: So they are training them to cower?Why would this surprise you? This is exactly what they are teaching the students.

This was SOP at the H.S. our son attended. If a student was attacked and he defended himself he would be punished more harshly than the perpetrator.

SJG26
August 30, 2008, 03:52 PM
Bet they won't try such foolishness in Utah or Texas where teachers ARE armed in some districts!!

Zedo
August 30, 2008, 03:57 PM
Yeah, "great idea" --

Exposing employees to the perceived threat of an armed aggressor is tortious. That's legalese for the school district is risking being sued.

The "hostile intruder" is fortunate that someone in the drill wasn't carrying CCW -- despite whatever "policy" might be, staff in these situations disregard "no CCW" policy all the time.

The hostile intruder is lucky he/she wasn't shot by a lawfully armed civilian.

Disregard of a "No CCW" ban is classed as "civil contempt." It's not "criminal" but rather a "civil" infraction -- like a parking ticket.

Shooting an "armed intruder" who has a gun, and is firing shots, yelling obscenities . . . That's "justifiable defense."

Gotta love the mind-set of the "brain trust" running our nation's "education" system these days.

The employees in this incident have a class-action lawsuit. The administration exposed them to a demonstrably life-threatening, dangerous, situation in reckless disregard for all sorts of obvious possible deliterious consequences.

I hope staff decides to retain vigorous legal counsel.

CZ.22
August 30, 2008, 04:03 PM
Hey, MADD did a similar thing. They faked a students death by drunk driver.

Old Grump
August 30, 2008, 04:18 PM
They reacted to a masked gunman by praying? I wonder what caliber they were praying for?

SCKimberFan
August 30, 2008, 04:19 PM
never mind

I can't post what I wanted to say.

cambeul41
August 30, 2008, 04:26 PM
This is why teachers should not be armed. If they were armed phony attackers might be shot.

(There has to be something wrong with that "logic.")

dogmush
August 30, 2008, 04:26 PM
They reacted to a masked gunman by praying? I wonder what caliber they were praying for?

Maybe theu were praying that he had a Talon pistol from the other thread? :shrug:

On a serious note, Wow! This was a dumb idea. And it's pretty telling of the school administrators that it never even occured to them that one of their teachers would hurt this guy. Chair, laptop, text book, heck even a good pen (seen The Dark Knight?) There's plenty of ways this could go *very* bad for the actor if just one teacher decides to go out in a blaze of glory.

Force on Force, and role-playing are good training but it only works if everyone involved knows that their training.

My school district did some dumb things while I was in school, but they never got this bad.

yesit'sloaded
August 30, 2008, 04:30 PM
Good way to get a Kershaw lodged into your throat. I may not have a gun on me at school, but I am never unarmed.

yesit'sloaded
August 30, 2008, 04:31 PM
Someone walks into a classroom shooting, I'm not going to stop and ask him if they are blanks. Then I'm going to sue for emotional distress and hearing damage, as the teachers should be doing.

Coronach
August 30, 2008, 04:38 PM
These sorts of drills are not limited to schools. My mother called me one day, stating that her place of work (a doctor's office) was going to have a "gunman drill", and she said she had some reservations. I found out that:

1. Management knew, but none of the staff was supposed to know.

2. The police were not to be informed in advance.

3. The gunman was to walk into the lobby, produce a realistic fake gun, and demand that the receptionist provide him with drugs.

I made her doublecheck that this was the case, becuase it just sounded too stupid to be real. She did, and it was. Turned out some state agency dreamed this up, so it was "official".

I pointed out a few flaws in this idea, which she duly sent to management:

1. You're doing this is a public place. What happens when you have an off duty or undercover cop in the waiting room?

2. You're doing this in a shall-issue CCW state, with LOTS of permits in circulation. What happens when you have a permit holder in the waiting room?

3. Is your receptionist a permit holder? Have you checked?

4. Who gets named as the defendant in the lawsuit for Old Mr. Magillicuddy when he has The Big One while witnessing this robbery? The Clerk of Courts wants to know.

5. Who gets named as the defendant when the role-player gets shot by the responding cops?

My mother said that the state agency representative who orchestrated this "had never thought of these things before" (!) and had never had any complaints from the other offices where they did this (!!), but he would confer with his superiors. A day later, the drill was officially cancelled.

I tell you, bureaucrats will get people killed. Period.

Mike

GingerGuy
August 30, 2008, 04:38 PM
They reacted to a masked gunman by praying? I wonder what caliber they were praying for?:D:D:D

rainbowbob
August 30, 2008, 04:50 PM
Mike:

Good for you in getting the "drill" canceled at your Mother's workplace.

There was a thread a few months ago about a similar drill at a college. It is just hard to believe that anybody could think this was a good idea. Equally hard to believe there have been no injuries or deaths as a result. But I predict there will be eventually...

yesit'sloaded
August 30, 2008, 04:56 PM
Kinda like airplanes after 9/11. You can't go into a school with a gun anymore to commit a crime because everyone will now assume you mean to kill as many people as possible. People now assume you are not going to be taking hostages and will start acting as they have been trained. Some will drop to the floor and beg while others are going to do things that will get the aggressor hurt or killed.

dresden8
August 30, 2008, 05:01 PM
No doubt they will tout it as a success as they all did what they were told and nobody got hurt.

Mousegun
August 30, 2008, 05:07 PM
Imagine if just one of the teachers finally got fed up with PRNJ's ways and decided to arm up.

Now the phonies break in and he goes into action eliminating the threat.

If I was on the jury, he would not get a conviction from me.

Coronach
August 30, 2008, 05:16 PM
I think it will take a role-player being shot by a police officer before this silliness grinds to a halt. I say police officer because if it is a CCW holder, everyone will just cluck their tongues and shake their heads sadly at the perils of an armed sociiety. If it is a cop doing the shooting, everyone will go, "oh, maybe this was a bad idea."

Not sayin' it's right, just sayin'.

Mike

retgarr
August 30, 2008, 05:21 PM
They did just as they were trained by running for cover and praying for their lives? There's no prayer in public schools!

rainbowbob
August 30, 2008, 05:26 PM
They did just as they were trained by running for cover and praying for their lives? There's no prayer in public schools!

Good point! No guns allowed. No prayer allowed. I guess that just leaves running for your life.

45Guy
August 30, 2008, 05:28 PM
any heroic action would be met with loss of employment at the very least, massive legal defense fees and potential arrest and sentencing!

That's great, try to save lives and you could lose your freedom and your job. But cower and die and you get a A+ for doing what your told.:fire:\

When will they unscrew their brain housing unit from their crevice?

I just hope it's not too late before they realize this training is WRONG, but we all know it usually takes something bad happening before things change.:(

BruceRDucer
August 30, 2008, 05:39 PM
This is pretty important as a study in the psychology of victimization.

:scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny:

FLA2760
August 30, 2008, 05:48 PM
Conrach posted "These sorts of drills are not limited to schools. My mother called me one day, stating that her place of work (a doctor's office) was going to have a "gunman drill", and she said she had some reservations. I found out that:

1. Management knew, but none of the staff was supposed to know.

2. The police were not to be informed in advance.

3. The gunman was to walk into the lobby, produce a realistic fake gun, and demand that the receptionist provide him with drugs.

I made her doublecheck that this was the case, becuase it just sounded too stupid to be real. She did, and it was. Turned out some state agency dreamed this up, so it was "official".

I pointed out a few flaws in this idea, which she duly sent to management:

1. You're doing this is a public place. What happens when you have an off duty or undercover cop in the waiting room?

2. You're doing this in a shall-issue CCW state, with LOTS of permits in circulation. What happens when you have a permit holder in the waiting room?

3. Is your receptionist a permit holder? Have you checked?

4. Who gets named as the defendant in the lawsuit for Old Mr. Magillicuddy when he has The Big One while witnessing this robbery? The Clerk of Courts wants to know.

5. Who gets named as the defendant when the role-player gets shot by the responding cops?

My mother said that the state agency representative who orchestrated this "had never thought of these things before" (!) and had never had any complaints from the other offices where they did this (!!), but he would confer with his superiors. A day later, the drill was officially cancelled.

I tell you, bureaucrats will get people killed. Period."

Mike
A BIG +1 to that. I spend a fair amount of time at various doctors. Stinks getting old, anyway if I were in the waiting room and I had a clear shot at the "gun waving actor" he would have been stopped.

GEM
August 30, 2008, 05:58 PM
They reacted to a masked gunman by praying? I wonder what caliber they were praying for?

Vatican Sued as role-play vaporized by lightning bolt. Episcopalians guarantee that their prayers won't harm anybody.

- :) - No offense to either sect. Just trying to be funny.

I remember an old bystander experiment where a guy runs into to a college classroom and grabs the teacher's purse. It was stopped when a mob charged after the guy to pound him.

I also personally know a prof that was going to run an eyewitness memory drill in class. Guy runs in with a blank gun and 'shoots' the teacher. Runs out and then you say what you saw. This was a night class full of cops. If it had happened much 158 gr round nose lead hilarity would have ensued. So the guy wouldn't get hurt as we know those runs are lousy stoppers. :D:D

We clued in the prof and it was cancelled. I had some of the cops in my class, they thought it would have been really funny.

critter
August 30, 2008, 06:15 PM
Ignorence is not confined to the student body at that school!

Scoutsout2645
August 30, 2008, 07:07 PM
And the Bad Idea of the Year award goes to.....

az_imuth
August 30, 2008, 07:07 PM
So what happens later when a real gunman bursts in the room and no one reacts because it's just an actor?:eek:

Not that the end result would differ much from their "plan of action".

Oana
August 30, 2008, 08:16 PM
Merrick said the actor was not originally supposed to enter the library but only jiggle the door handles and fire blanks in the hallway. The door opened unexpectedly and the actor improvised to keep the drill moving, he said. (emphasis mine)

"When we do drills like this, we don't know what will be the reaction of people. These things happen," Merrick said.

He added that teachers are taught not to retaliate in such situations. If they had, he said, protocol was in place to handle it, although he wouldn't elaborate.

Despite the unplanned element of the actor entering the library, teachers followed protocol, Merrick said.


So, the actor was only supposed to fire blanks in the hallway. Great. But if you don't want him going into the library and scaring people out of their wits, tell him so. Don't dress him up in a scary outfit with a gun. Use firecrackers outside, if you must.

And to think, these people are responsible for running a school. :banghead:

Re: protocol. Protocol, schmotocol. They seem awfully concerned with their "protocol" of hiding under desks. And look how effective it was. /sarcasm

Hopefully these schools will wise up lest they get someone killed. :fire:

So what happens later when a real gunman bursts in the room and no one reacts because it's just an actor?

+1

LKB3rd
August 30, 2008, 08:27 PM
This is pretty important as a study in the psychology of victimization.


This is exactly what it is. It is terror being inflicted on people by the government, and training for people to cower and not do anything in response. It goes against human nature to not defend yourself, so it has to be trained.

Happiness Is A Warm Gun
August 30, 2008, 09:24 PM
I thought prayer and school had been removed by the liberals a long time ago.

Someone should charge those teachers who were praying on school property.

wahsben
August 30, 2008, 09:37 PM
They should have them do stretching exercises so they can bend over and kiss their rear ends goobye.
To think that anyone would allow themselves to be victimized is disgusting.

Jdude
August 30, 2008, 09:46 PM
This makes me so angry that I cannot make a THR response.

If it happens around me I am going to assume it is real and kill him.

chris in va
August 30, 2008, 09:49 PM
I don't have kids, but did the chaperone thing with my friend's daughter at her HS freshman dance. I can verify at least this school admin is full of idiots.

Now if I had a kid in that NJ school and some guy ran in with a gun shooting blanks, I'd sue the snot out of the system for that kind of distress. And I'm not sue happy like much of America today.:fire:

jonmerritt
August 30, 2008, 09:57 PM
He is lucky a trained teacher, or student, didn't snap, and forget their taining. And charge the actor, and beat him with a chair leg! If you know you are going to die, get a few wacks in at least. How should I know it was a fake gun!

doncol
August 30, 2008, 10:04 PM
This is exactly what it is. It is terror being inflicted on people by the government, and training for people to cower and not do anything in response. It goes against human nature to not defend yourself, so it has to be trained.

So, when did this become a government operation? The way I read it, it was the school that set up this drill.

RP88
August 30, 2008, 10:10 PM
what exactly was the appropriate trained response? Was it the 'pray for your life and hide under a desk' part?

I'm sure alot of you older gents and ladies remember the anti-Soviet missile drill that came with its own instructional video. "In the event of a nuclear blast, hide under your desk and see if your lips can actually reach your ass". You know, that video. Whatever training you are to enact while stuck in an open space like a library must be just as pointless as the missile drill part.

Oana
August 30, 2008, 10:12 PM
what exactly was the appropriate trained response? Was it the 'pray for your life and hide under a desk' part?


I am afraid it was.

sharpetop
August 30, 2008, 10:17 PM
Mmmm! I'll bet a stunt like this wouldn't fly at the school district in Texas that allows CCW.

jad0110
August 30, 2008, 10:24 PM
On a serious note, Wow! This was a dumb idea. And it's pretty telling of the school administrators that it never even occured to them that one of their teachers would hurt this guy. Chair, laptop, text book, heck even a good pen (seen The Dark Knight?) There's plenty of ways this could go *very* bad for the actor if just one teacher decides to go out in a blaze of glory.

Projection. They assume that everyone else would react just like they would: sob and grovel to the attacker to be allowed to live :fire: .

You know, I can understand someone freezing up in a dire situation and doing nothing. But what makes me truly ill is this planned, trained cowardice. Meanwhile, those that fight back, bravely, are villified. Absolutely disgusting, IMO.

I once got into a debate with someone that stated that they would do or say anything to stay alive in such a situation. They were shocked/horrified when I retorted that I'd rather die fighting on my feet than live the rest of my life knowing I had begged for my life on my knees.

It's hard for some people to believe that some things are worse than death. And trust me, I like my life, I want to live!

---

One other thing, this school is in New Jersey. I thought all schools in NJ were gun free zones. So this kind of thing would never happen there! :rolleyes: :banghead:

Kind of indirectly admitting they are wrong, aren't they?

JDoe
August 30, 2008, 10:28 PM
I wonder what the response of a teacher would be if on Monday a gunman bursts into their classroom and fires off a few shots? Will they think it is another intruder drill?

Big Matt
August 30, 2008, 10:34 PM
So I wonder what the teachers' union has to say about this situation??? Perhaps a few grieveances (sp?) filed with their union reps will rattle the school board and administration back into somewhat normal thinking.

Dienekes
August 30, 2008, 10:37 PM
Just one more reason to LIMIT government, and not to turn your kids over to goverment schools.

I'm getting to where I don't want to be saved by any "well-meaning" idiots. I either prevail or go under. How could I do worse?:cuss:

doc2rn
August 30, 2008, 10:37 PM
The so called training tells you to play dead.

pbearperry
August 30, 2008, 10:47 PM
I hope I am never in a spot where someone thinks having someone play a bad guy armed and acting crazy is a good idea.Someone is going to get killed.

lookn4varmints
August 30, 2008, 10:53 PM
I found this one back in February (Elizabeth City, NC). Asinine to the nth degree.....

http://www.wtkr.com/global/story.asp?s=7923804

Local College Causes Stir With Gunman Drill

Posted: Feb 25, 2008 07:26 PM EST

Some Elizabeth State University students are upset after being almost scared to death by a recent safety drill on campus.

On Friday, an undercover campus officer barged into a history class in the Moore building and held the class hostage. According to students, he even held a gun to the professor's head! It was all part of an emergency alert system drill that the school was planning for months. Problem is...not everyone knew it was a drill.

Four days earlier, the school did begin sending out emails to students saying there would be some sort of emergency drill on Friday. It did not specify where or exactly what time the drill would occur. It also did not mention the nature of the drill.

Then, on Friday, a few minutes before it all went down, the school sent out an alert saying there would be an armed intruder in Moore building who would be detained by campus police. Again, it did not specify which classroom. However, only about half the campus has voluntarily signed up for the instant text alerts to their phones, so most people in that particular classroom, including the professor in that class, had no idea it was a drill.

By phone on Monday morning, Professor Jingbin Wang said he was shocked and did not know it was a drill. "Everyone was scared," he said. He said some students were prepared to jump out the window. Another colleague told him that her students were using tables and chairs to block the door of their classroom. "Her heart was racing," he said about his fellow teacher.

"I cannot believe a university would subject their own students to such a horrific event," one family member of a student in that classroom wrote us. " They were terrified! It is extremely poor judgement on the part of the administration at ECSU."

Effective training for students in the wake of the Virginia Tech and Northern Illinois University shootings? Or a safety drill taken one step too far?

Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs Anthony Brown took our questions Monday afternoon.

"If there are people who have concerns and they were surprised, it was not our intention to surprise or shock anybody and if that occurs we are there for them," said Brown. "I really offer our sincere apology, because that was not the intent of this."

Then we asked him point blank, "Don't you think a normal person would be shocked if the person coming at their professor with a gun was a campus officer?

"Well, we did send out emails five days in advance and continued it through with alerts," said Brown.

We then pointed out that those initial alerts did not mention a gunman!

"No," he said. "That alert occurred on the day, on the day of the event."

So then we pressed further, that isn't it true that the school was absolutely aware that not all students would get that alert because not all students are signed up for the alert.

"That's absolutely true," he said. "That's where we have to test out the system and our communication among each other. Because if your neighbor knows something and you don't that tests something, that tests the communication. We should look out for each other, so that's something we learned. Paper and text and emails are one thing, but word of mouth is perhaps most important."

Again, word of mouth obviously did not spread around in time for the students in this classroom to get the warning this was a drill.

One student we talked to requested a private meeting with administration regarding her terrifying experience during the drill.

For now, the school is standing by the drill, saying that the administration, campus police and students learned from the experience. More drills are planned.

If you would like to sign up for the school's alerts to come instantly to your cell or your email, head to http://www.ecsc.edu and look for the sparkly icon at the very top of the homepage called PIER Emergency Communications System.

ridata
August 31, 2008, 03:04 AM
I have said from the start of my hearing of these drills that they are one of the stupidest ideas people have every come up with.
This one just sparked up my rage again, I totally don't understand what is in some people's heads.

As Coronach said, the only way these drills are going to be stopped are with the actor being hurt. I hope these end quickly, yet at the same time I fear for the guy who is going to be hurt.

b.thomas
August 31, 2008, 03:30 AM
dumb, just really dumb!

Maelstrom
August 31, 2008, 04:03 AM
Great! Now the ACLU is going to sue the school because some teachers prayed while on the clock!

Deus Machina
August 31, 2008, 04:04 AM
I'm headed back to college in a semester or two. If this happens in a classroom down here, there will be a major lawsuit, and I for one am not the type to sue when it's unwarranted.

I just ran through the CC laws, too--in FL, it's legal to carry on school grounds, concealed on your person, a stun gun that does not fire darts or projectiles. I'll have to compliment my pistol with Device de la El Zappo, now.

maestro pistolero
August 31, 2008, 05:08 AM
The ACTOR might have been wearing my laptop for a head band after i used it for a point-blank frisbee.

Zedo
August 31, 2008, 05:14 AM
There are laws against threatening and menacing behavior. When you threaten and menace anyone who is not aware that it's a "drill" then you're in violation of the law just as assuredly as if you'd menaced and threatened with intent to harm.

Besides the probability of someone being shot in the process, some administrators need to be seriously sued for threatening and menacing staff.

Threatening and menacing -- in these instances ARMED threats and menacing -- is criminal behavior.

coyotehitman
August 31, 2008, 05:24 AM
The ACTOR might have been wearing my laptop for a head band after i used it for a point-blank frisbee.

He would have definitely ran away with three shoes, two on his feet and mine stuck in his butt.



A good way to cause a heart attack on the unsuspecting.

TRGRHPY
August 31, 2008, 05:33 AM
I go to a college with a lot of military (current, retired, voc rehab) and I gaurantee you that even though it is against the law to have a gun in the school, if a gunman came in, he would end up shot many times by many people.

Although, one of the dips***s went into the head to drop a deuce and put his gun on the toilet paper holder and forgot it there. Now there is a "NOTICE" in all the school emails and such about the illegal nature of carrying on school grounds.

That's right, there is no praying in public schools...that is unless there is some kind of emergency. It's apparent that school boards don't think that God wants to hear from us unless we need something from him. No wonder why kids are losing commons sense and critical thinking skills...look at the example they get at school.

MarkDido
August 31, 2008, 06:07 AM
They reacted to a masked gunman by praying? I wonder what caliber they were praying for?

Praying in school is definately a violation of "Separation of Church and State" :rolleyes:

p2000sk
August 31, 2008, 07:54 AM
The ACTOR might have been wearing my laptop for a head band after i used it for a point-blank frisbee.

Ever practice with that thing?

Catherine
August 31, 2008, 08:08 AM
Social engineering at it's finest in the public fool system and in other places!

UGH.

I would be praying and wanting to aim at the bad guy if it was real. My late husband used to say that God helps those who help themselves and it is not a Biblical quote. He believed in God as I do but he believed in SELF defense too!

Catherine

Catherine
August 31, 2008, 08:09 AM
I did LOVE that praying for what caliber comment here. Thanks!

Catherine

LKB3rd
August 31, 2008, 08:23 AM
So, when did this become a government operation? The way I read it, it was the school that set up this drill.
I made her doublecheck that this was the case, becuase it just sounded too stupid to be real. She did, and it was. Turned out some state agency dreamed this up, so it was "official".
I realize that the quoted part about the state sponsoring the drill at the doctor's office is not the op's example, but I'd be surprised if they weren't at least inspired by other government sponsored programs. Also, schools are state sponsored, so I while they may not be technically government, they are close.
This is happening all over the country, and it has happened under federally funded programs. In one case, a group of law enforcement officers pretended to be a "violent crazy home schooling group" and staged an armed takeover of a school, terrorizing the kids.
Here are some more articles about this sort of thing:
http://justanotherblowback.blogspot.com/2006/11/armed-police-terrorize-school.html
Slightly different this one, but terrorizing kids is the common part:http://www.aclu.org/drugpolicy/gen/10672prs20031215.html
http://newsmine.org/content.php?ol=security/police-militarization/terrorizing-high-school-raid-might-have-broken-dog-rules.txt
http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXK6ayj9JawU
http://www.aclu.org/drugpolicy/youth/10720prs20020725.html

That should be enough to make the point.
Why are there drills all over the place, teaching our children to cower from police infringing on their rights, and run from armed gunmen, hiding and waiting to be shot? Are they teaching them how to act like cowards and slaves of government? If you asked me that question, I'd say yes.

SCKimberFan
August 31, 2008, 08:44 AM
doncol posted:

So, when did this become a government operation? The way I read it, it was the school that set up this drill.

And just who do you think is running the schools? It ain't the parents!! :neener:

Plus this post:

I made her doublecheck that this was the case, becuase it just sounded too stupid to be real. She did, and it was. Turned out some state agency dreamed this up, so it was "official".

Joe Cool
August 31, 2008, 08:57 AM
Once again I am embarrassed for the State of NJ where I live. My children are 'trained' too, but not to cower, to seek cover and make ready to counter-attack if possible. They also have my standing instructions to ignore the 'hide and wait instructions' if they hear shots fired in their schools, and to instead get the hell out of the school and call for help.

However, these drills are gaining in popularity and everyone here should find outlets to provide feedback to those in charge regarding the dangers outlined in this thread and the very uselessness of the exercises. We have left the education system for too long to the liberal-socialist mindset people and now it will be hard to break their stranglehold on it with the unions and their own little networks...

Zach S
August 31, 2008, 11:10 AM
Ignorence is not confined to the student body at that school!
Ignorance is like a snowball. Its starts at the top, and gets bigger as it rolls down the hill.

rainbowbob
August 31, 2008, 01:56 PM
LKB3rd :

Most of the examples in your link list are real drug raids on school children - which is disgusting on so many levels.

However, one of the examples is a demonstration of how "active shooter" drills should be conducted:

http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXK6ayj9JawU

That one involved student volunteers who were fully aware of what was going on, and appears to have been run during non-school hours. I have no objection whatsoever to training LEOs in drills of that kind. The only surprises should be for the LEOs participating in the drill.

larry_minn
August 31, 2008, 02:10 PM
GEM posted

I also personally know a prof that was going to run an eyewitness memory drill in class. Guy runs in with a blank gun and 'shoots' the teacher. Runs out and then you say what you saw. This was a night class full of cops. If it had happened much 158 gr round nose lead hilarity would have ensued. So the guy wouldn't get hurt as we know those runs are lousy stoppers.

We clued in the prof and it was cancelled. I had some of the cops in my class, they thought it would have been really

I had the exact same thing. Teacher told us she used to have a grad student come in/complain his failing grade would ruin his life,etc. Then pull a gun and shoot her/run out.

Only the teacher said that because of actions a few yrs before they now use a vidio clip from "Hill Street Blues". She refused to say what actions caused this stunt to be discontinued.

I have been a "student" as well as "mad bomber" in school shooting drills. EVERYONE was involved/that part of school (not during school hrs) was also closed off, barriers, signs not only on hallways to side of school but also at enterance to parking lot/office in "open" side of school. Escorts were REQUIRED for anyone not taking active part. Thats the only way to safely do this. (and all Officers had to have chamber flags/empty mags/double checked first.

Coronach
August 31, 2008, 08:32 PM
He is lucky a trained teacher, or student, didn't snap, and forget their training. And charge the actor, and beat him with a chair leg! If you know you are going to die, get a few whacks in at least. How should I know it was a fake gun!That, actually, would be a hysterical way to resolve this. No one gets hurt err, killed, and the actor has a great story to tell everyone when he goes to his PT sessions.

"So, how did your arm get broken?"

"A shrieking cheerleader snapped it while throwing me to the ground."

"Oh...kinky."

"Yeah. Not so much."

Mike :)

Zundfolge
August 31, 2008, 08:36 PM
I hate to see someone get hurt, but the best way for these things to end is for a bunch of school teachers to beat down some blank packing idiot with chairs.


Unfortunately, any heroic action would be met with loss of employment at the very least, massive legal defense fees and potential arrest and sentencing!
I'm pretty cynical and even I know that's not true.

The only reason for "loss of employment" would be because the law suit settlement paid TO the heroic teacher would preclude their need for further employment.


Arrest, legal fees, sentencing ... not going to happen as the legal threshold for using violence in self defense is "Would a reasonable man be in fear of serious injury or death" .

stevemis
August 31, 2008, 09:24 PM
They should have them do stretching exercises so they can bend over and kiss their rear ends goobye.

Kissing falls under the "inappropriate contact" category. Unfortunately, due to Zero Tolerance, even kissing one's self is deemed inappropriate.

Baaah.

MacTech
August 31, 2008, 09:26 PM
I tell you, bureaucrats will get people killed. Period.

The solution is simple then, BAN BUREAUCRATS!, or at the very least have them have to qualify for and carry a CBL (Concealed Bureaucracy License ) which would be null and void in schools and governmental buildings

When bureaucrats are outlawed, only outlaws will be bureaucrats ;)

FLA2760
August 31, 2008, 10:41 PM
Maelstrom wrote,"Great! Now the ACLU is going to sue the school because some teachers prayed while on the clock"!


LOL
__________________

glocktoter
September 1, 2008, 09:51 AM
I'm all fired up by several things on this thread. As a teacher in the public school system who is currently waiting patiently for her conceal carry permit to arrive, I appreciate that many of you think this was a stupid drill. Duh.
What I disagree with is the idea that we're "trained" to "cower." Ok, yes, I can't disagree, in general. If we hear there's an intruder in the building, we are trained to close our doors, lock them and keep the children as safe as possible in our unarmed states. So in that way, yes, you're right. But I don't like the feeling I'm getting from a lot of these posts that we're mindless, or because of us, the kids are not learning to defend themselves. We're apparently cowards, so it's no wonder that little Johnny is, too-- after all, that's what he's learning at school.
Some posts mentioned "snapping off a chair leg" or some variation and beating the meanie with the gun with it. Well, in order to do this, a person must have 1. Massive action-movie strength to break the chair (which of course, wouldn't be noticed by the gunman, right? After all, they don't notice in the movies...) 2. opportunity to approach the gunman without being seen or heard, and then 3. Smack him hard enough with the improvised weapon ONCE so that he is down and can be detained or ... dealt with. Yes, as teachers we should defend ourselves, but I think the situation has to be just so in order for something like this to realistically work without a paranoid gunman shooting everyone in the room. Often the gunman is feeling a sense of power. If cowering and praying saves lives by making him believe we're not racking our brains trying to think of something we can do, then good.
Another tidbit to think about is this: all of us have heard about situations where a crook of some sort is high on who-knows-what, and the cops shoot him dozens of times to get him to go down. If I were to try to do something like this, I would hope I'd be high on SOMETHING. The chance that the gunman is right in his head at the time of shooting seems relatively low. You might as well bash YOURSELF in the head with the chair leg for all the good it will do you. I understand that the hero with the chair leg may save lives, but he may die, too. Many of you are willing to do that at a moment's notice. Good for you. I like life, and would like to continue it, so depending on the situation, there's a good chance I won't try to be the hero. I'll be cowering in my classroom, thankyouverymuch, keeping my students quiet.
I know many of you are not anti-teacher, and have more of a problem with the fact that schools are killing zones waiting to happen, and I agree. Just remember please that we are not all cowardly sheep being led to the slaughter. We are people too.

txoilman
September 1, 2008, 11:11 AM
My daughter attended a high school in Texas. The Marine ROTC program had both AR's & M-14's in the training racks. The bolts were in a quick open safe.

The teachers were one retired Corp officer, one gunny and one first Sargent. I would bet that their trucks parked just outside the class door had more than one box of appropriate ammo.

I for one would hate to be a local copper "training" at that school without alerting the "staff" (including the Marines). It might lead to "unintended consequences".

Crunker1337
September 1, 2008, 01:05 PM
I don't generally agree with frivolous lawsuits. But this is something I can't tolerate--all it does is make people feel insecure and scare them.
If one of these teachers sues, I will support them 100%.

rainbowbob
September 1, 2008, 01:28 PM
Just remember please that we are not all cowardly sheep being led to the slaughter. We are people too.

glocktoter:
Thank you for your excellent post. Sometimes (often) we internet heroes need a reality check from somebody who is actually in the trenches. Keep teaching and protecting our children as best you can in a flawed world.

dalepres
September 1, 2008, 08:47 PM
SCKimberFan: So they are training them to cower?

And don't forget pray.

SCKimberFan
September 1, 2008, 08:54 PM
Nope, they are in a school. Can't pray. :banghead:

dalepres
September 1, 2008, 08:54 PM
My daughter attended a high school in Texas. The Marine ROTC program had both AR's & M-14's in the training racks. The bolts were in a quick open safe.

They're not operational. Zero chance.

dalepres
September 1, 2008, 08:55 PM
SCKimber Fan, this is from the OP:

The man, yelling obscenities, squeezed off several shots, prompting those present to run for cover and pray for their lives.

The school said the teachers did exactly what they were trained to do. :)

WinchesterAA
September 1, 2008, 09:24 PM
So it's no longer safe to assume that the man barging into your classroom and holding the place up is a bad guy?

I wonder what legal ramifications a student would be subjected to if he were to return fire at the "actor"?

SCKimberFan
September 1, 2008, 09:33 PM
Yeah, I know. But rules are rules. They can only cower, not pray. :D

Millwright
September 1, 2008, 09:42 PM
I don't mind admitting I'm very anti-education establishment - at the national level and most particularly the NJEA - having sent three kids thru it. Not "teacher"; just "establishment". No doubt the NJEA will be pontificating on this fiasco shortly. We can be sure their response will be larded with lots of hoplophobic catch phrases and emotional "trigger words" - but no worthwhile analyses or suggestions.

BTW, I haven't seen anyone post from P'burg - about five miles from me - and a school I have long acquaintence with. Phillipsburg is a former "mill town". It once had the main plant of a F200 worldwide OEM as well as numerous other mfg. businesses of varying sizes and national note. It now has two major industries - a pipe foundry - and illegal drugs, along with a burgeoning gang population. The homicide rate in what's known locally as the "Lehigh Valley" is such that the scenario depicted is not a matter of "if" just "when". >MW

David904
September 1, 2008, 11:38 PM
Glocktoter,

I am a former teacher myself. I taught 8th grade.

I can understand your sense of frustration at being labeled as a coward. By and large, the teachers are not cowards; however most have the same preprogrammed non-violent response mindset that you have expressed.

In their infinite wisdom, lawmakers have decided that it is illegal to carry a firearm and be able to prevent an armed intruder from entering your classroom to hurt the children in your care. And most teachers seem to think that this is a wise law. This has always appalled me.

Close and lock the door. Turn out the lights. Back up into a corner and sit quietly until you are either bypassed or executed by the psychotic armed intruder is an unacceptable plan of action.

Barricade the door. Turn out the lights. Sit quietly. Obtain weapons of opportunity and make ready to assault the intruder and lay down your life in defense of those children should the intruder make it through the door.

I don't care how much you love your life. If you are in charge of taking care of somebody's kids and they are denied the means of defending themselves (including escaping school grounds) then you owe them your life. Period. Anything less.. Hell you may as well not even be there and just let the intruder kill the children.

Dave in PA
September 3, 2008, 09:53 AM
I went to High School in Phillipsburg, the drill was held at a new school building while teachers were there for a back to school in service day. Only a couple of posters have mentioned it, but it was the first thing a retired P-burg cop said when I asked him about it....what would have happened if one of the teachers had a heart attack? 911 operators had also been given only a few minutes warning prior to the drill. What about PA operators? frequently cell towers across the river in PA will pick up cell phone calls. Everybody I have spoken to about this drill feels it was one of the least thought out drills. Now that the teachers have been taught to cower under their desks, what will happen when there are kids in the class rooms?

Also, from what I understand from the drill, the announcement was made that the school was in 'lockdown'. Nobody gets in or out. The bad guy actor was ALREADY INSIDE the building at that point. Sooooo, he was locked IN? The kids will be LOCKED IN, too, in a real school day situation?????? I am glad I moved across the river when I turned 18.

David904
September 3, 2008, 11:00 AM
The institutionalized stupidity in the halls of education is breathtaking.:eek:

My best friend is a state trooper and has told me in detail the depth of the training for an "active shooter" scenario that an SRO goes through. Basically it is an annual 6 hour class.

Anyone who has had mout / CQB training will know that this is nowhere nearly enough to develop and maintain any sense of proficiency. And no... the SROs are not SWAT qualified in any way. There may be exceptions out there, but they are the exception.

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