[Drgong]

My parents are coming back from a trip to alaska (Lucky them) and I arrived early today to make sure the Air conditioning was on and other household things for there arrival. When I arrived I found two stray dogs, including one that was around 70 pounds or so, that had set up camp on the back porch while my parents was gone, and got VERY defensive of there new found property. I was coming back from the range and had two pistols with me, and while I was able to run them off, I did get to the point of putting the other stuff I was carrying and at least ready to pull out the gun in case I was attacked, How much trouble would I have gotten in if a dog tried to take a bite out of me and I used my firearm?

[SCKimberFan]

Depends on the statutes of the town you're in, discharging a firearm, etc. If the dogs had no license or collars, then none from the owners.

[Zedo]

Sheriff's department and "Animal Control" is your "stray dog resource center."

Dogs need to be licensed. The license needs to be ON the dog, on a collar. Uncollared dogs are by definition "strays." That said, I have a Service Dog, legally defined by Americans with Disabilities Act as a legal working dog which accompanies me EVERYWHERE.

Ginger was a stray. I resued her from the local Animal Shelter. She's a great dog, but as a Australian Cattle Dog, she's wary of strangers and "nips" playfully as part of her "herding" instinct. We'd be doing the world a huge disservice by injuring stray dogs who are pretty much functioning out of territorial and survival instinct.

Shooting stray dogs doesn't do anyone any favors. Stray dogs don't become "strays" because of their own choice. Strays become strays as a pattern of abuse by their idiot "owners."

Shoot the idiot owner, not the dog!

The dog is not at fault for the shortcomings of its owner.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj188/Ontologix/WOOF.jpg

[ArmedBear]

Start feeding them and it sounds like you'll have no worries about home security.:)

Where did they go in AK? Just got back, myself.

[mgkdrgn]

Dogs are not people, in the eyes of the law, dogs are property.

Would you have any hesitation to shoot a person who attacked you on the porch?

[Drgong]

Mgk, if the larger of the dogs had gotten any closer, I would of had to shoot him, but I was wondering what type of leagal headaces I would of faced.

As for my parents, they went on a cruse and have yet to get back. Will know more later on tonight.

[Zedo]

Dogs are not people, in the eyes of the law, dogs are property.

Would you have any hesitation to shoot a person who attacked you on the porch?

That's right. Dogs are not people. Dogs react out of instinct rather than logic. Humans on the other hand should have enough basic rational skills to be able to figure out the consequences of their reckless behavior.

I have no problems shooting a human on my back porch. But shooting a dog just because he/she's acting like a dog makes me question if you're human enough to understand the consequences and implications of your behavior.

Dogs don't bite unless they're threatened. As a human, you should be smart enough not to present a threat.

As for "legal consequences" -- even stray dogs are "domestic animals" and accordingly provided with the basic protections against being shot of any domestic animal. It's the same protection afforded "property" -- You don't shoot up property, because it's unlawful.

And now you're going to get me into the harangue about people who view shooting things as a means to "conflict resolution." If you view a gun as a "problem solver" then you have "problems" and the gun is one of them.

[mgkdrgn]

If you were attacked by a dog, and defended yourself, I would figure no more trouble than if you were attacked by a human and defended yourself, and much likely a lot less.

One of the reasons I got my CCW is because there are several nasty dogs in the neighborhood. They have already killed several neighborhood pets. I carry when I walk my dog (11 y/o goofy golden retriever) to deal with them, and will shoot them w/o hesitation if they become a problem.

[rantingredneck]

Per NC law, deadly force can be used against domestic animals to protect yourself, another person, or a pet of your own.

Assuming no stray bullets went anywhere they shouldn't I can't imagine you'd get in any trouble over it.

[Drgong]

Good to know!

[SR_]

rantingredneck
do you have a cite for the nc law that addresses the use of deadly force against domestic animals? just interested in learning/reading the actual rules.

[rantingredneck]

No cite, just had to deal with several neighborhood "problem" dogs and much discussion with animal control and deputies in the county in the process.

[Loomis]

If they are pits or look part pit, you might actually get a medal.

[rantingredneck]

SR, at one time, I did find a link to it, but I'm having trouble coming up with it now.

Basically what I have read and have been told by several LEO's is that you can use deadly force against an animal that is attacking you, another person, or a pet or livestock.

Now having said that there's always the possibility of the owner of said animal getting upset and trying to make your life miserable for shooting "fluffy".

We had new neighbors move in last summer 2 doors down from us. My wife and 2 kids and I were going shopping one Saturday morning. I was locking the front door while my wife was putting the kids in the van. I heard my wife scream and ran around the side of the house to the driveway. I see a dog of about 60 or 70 pounds standing there with about 4ft of broken cable hanging off it's collar. It's got hackles up and fangs bared. My wife's got the two kids between her and the open van door. I ran toward the dog angling to get my wife and kids out of the line of fire (if necessary). I got past the family and started to draw when the dog decided to be somewhere else. I watched where the dog went and put 2 and 2 together.

We put the trip on hold for a moment. I called animal control and got the regular sheriff's dept folks (animal control folks aren't on on weekends in this county). I reported what happened and what would have happened had the dog not backed down. I then put my weapon in the house and went down to talk to the owner of the dog.

She said, "Oh he's not used to people, it's best to just avoid him if he's in your yard". I replied, "Ma'am, that's simply not acceptable. I have two small children, I also refuse to "avoid" a dog that's not supposed to be in my yard in the first place and to have to run away from it. I fully intend to defend myself and my family if necessary. I have reported as much to the local sheriff's dept. Have a nice day".

That dog has not reappeared in our yard. They now keep him well restrained.

[SR_]

I think you handled the situation well with the dog in your yard.

Would be interested in the cite if you can find it. Until then, I'm not sure one would want to discharge a firearm to protect a pet. Protection of a person against "death or great bodily harm" should be fine. I think I'd want to use that standard (which comes from the deadly force against a person).

I'm not saying protection from a dog is at the same level - it's just that there are a lot of laws against discharging a firearm (state, county, city).

Oh, I purchased my first pistol because there was a pack of wild dogs in the area where I hunt. Over time the locals thinned out the pack.... I got very close to 'thinning the pack' two years ago - but the dog turned about the time the gun came out of the holster. It was not a friendly dog.... and I was certainly in fear of great bodily harm!

[Duke Junior]

Defense against dogs is very complex in NC,perhaps more so than almost any other state.You have to be very cautious before taking aggressive action.See this advice from a NC Law Firm:

http://www.northcarolinainjurylawyerblog.com/personal_injury/animal_and_dog_bites

As you see from the article, most of the time a dog has to bite someone before action can be taken.Sounds ridiculous but there it is.

The NC Statutes cover Dogs in Chapter 67.There is no mention about defense against a potentially dangerous dog by a citizen being attacked that I can find:

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascripts/Statutes/StatutesTOC.pl?Chapter=0067

Perhaps someone can wade through it again.I'm tired.

[B.D. Turner]

Last week a Lenoir County NC Sheriff's Dept K9 left his kennel while the deputy was away from home. The next door neighbor saw the dog out and shot and killed him. The neighbor said the dog was aggressive. However he was charged with a felony cruelty to animals.

[mgkdrgn]

"Defense against dogs is very complex in NC,perhaps more so than almost any other state.You have to be very cautious before taking aggressive action.See this advice from a NC Law Firm:"

That's nice, but guess what?

If I'm attacked by a dog, I'm going to kill it, period, no matter what state I'm in. They can work out the "complexities" AFTER my family, my dog, and myself are safe from attack.

[jfdavis58]

I don't live in the largest of cities; but it's not all that small either. We have this neat little government agency call (colloquially) "Animal Control". They drive this interesting white trucks with lots of sturdy cages in the back and they have these really nifty long poles with loops of rope at the far end--loops that can be placed around a stray animals neck, snugged-up and cause the human operator to gain a good measure of control over the animal. Oddly, the humans are reasonably well trained (for a government agency stooge).

They also have radios to summon more of their kind should they need help with a particularly rowdy animal. Supervisors have tranquilizer equipped firearms; and are reasonably adept at using same.

Should a citizen encounter an unwelcome animal 'guest' he/she can back away cautiously and call the city hotline number (311) and have this agency respond--much like the fire department or police. One can also call he regular emergency number (911) and get connected with the proper help.

In addition to avoiding the ramification of discharging a firearm in the city at an animal, calling 'Animal Control' allows one to see his/her tax dollars at work. This is often quite educational and holds the promise of some entertainment as well; I love a good show!

Instead of being all 'macho' and 'tough' and 'rough and ready' with your spiffy umpteen-shot handgun, grab a recent copy of the local phone directory (keep a copy in your vehicle, too) and turn to the government section of listings and peruse until you find something like 'Animal Control' listed. Grab-up your cellphone and dial the number. Pretty simple!

[SCKimberFan]

Sorry John, but my phone book is just too big to keep in my car. :D

[Waitone]

Instead of being all 'macho' and 'tough' and 'rough and ready' with your spiffy umpteen-shot handgun, grab a recent copy of the local phone directory (keep a copy in your vehicle, too) and turn to the government section of listings and peruse until you find something like 'Animal Control' listed. Grab-up your cellphone and dial the number. Pretty simple! Yeah, if you have the time. Be very careful of cracker barrel interpretation of NC law. It is never what it seems to be. Combine written ambiguity with sporadic enforcement and good old fashioned corruption and you end up with an intolerable situation for law abiding citizens. Be wary of NC laws, period.

[jfdavis58]

Then might I suggest further that one follow the n-Ps* of 'Performance' and look-up the number ahead of time. I use a cheap-'pay as you go'- cellphone (and hate it like most phones) but even I have spare slots for a few 'emergency' numbers. And 911 is hard-wired anyway!


*Prior Planning Prevents (P(some liquid)) Poor Performance.

We've had a rough year and a bad week around my house: this week alone several expensive item-including a cherished old rifle scope and a family pet have expired; another pet is facing surgery. A parent died, another is sick, the family is playing at guilt tripping each other or whose turn it is to take care of which parent and there was some condensate on the kitchen table when my wife sat a new novel down to put groceries away--guess who got blamed even though he always uses a coaster and hadn't been near the table in hours???? Didn't sleep well and woke up by getting on this infernal internet. It seems this is the time of year to discuss shooting stray animals, maligning noble dog breeds like (PitBulls) and other such 'off' topics-I'm a little weary of ALL of it and a bit testy when 'common sense' seems to be anything but 'common'.

[highlander 5]

dog has me,my dog or my wife by whatever appendage dog is dead I'll worry about the legal ramifications later.

[mgkdrgn]

"They also have radios to summon more of their kind should they need help with a particularly rowdy animal. Supervisors have tranquilizer equipped firearms; and are reasonably adept at using same."

If you think the "response time" of the police sucks, try calling animal control.

If I'm out walking my dog, and one of the neighborhood "bad ass' pit bulls or rotts is AWOL, I'm not going to be dialing the cell phone while they are tearing my dog and I up.

If all they are doing is wandering around in my yard, I call animal control. When they get here a few hours later (or the next day), I'll tell them what I saw a few hours ago (or yesterday).

When they cornered the neighbors cat and killed it, AC showed up the next day.

If it's a direct confrontation, I'm going to resolve it, now.

[ArmedBear]

Dog treats. Cheaper than ammo, and more effective in preventing dog attacks on you in your own neighborhood. If you have dogs around the neighborhood that make you uncomfortable, toss them some treats a few times. No more worries.

Self defense is your right as a human being.

Being trigger-happy, however, isn't.

[SCKimberFan]

Be wary of NC laws, period.

Huh?

[Loomis]

mgkdrgn says:


"If I'm attacked by a dog, I'm going to kill it, period"

That's fine, but you might find yourself in big big trouble if you shoot a rat terrier for biting your shoe. There's a spectrum of dogs out there. The ones in between cujo and fluffy the poodle are going to be the ones that people will not unanimously agree on wether you should kill it or not.

[Duke Junior]

Didn't mean to start a blood feud on my Doggy Advice post!:D
But if it's me in a dog situation and I don't feel too overtly threatened, I take Armed Bears advice and start throwing out the scraps.
If that dog is a Rottweiler,Doberman or Pitbull coming at my throat,mgkdrgn's method is the way I go and we will let it all be sorted out later.
A dog can kill or maim you in the blink of a eye.Calling 911 or Animal Control will not help in scene #2.You must be able to take your own action,pronto.

[xanderzuk]

I guess I don't understand the situation?

Did you see the dogs from the car? From inside the house?

OR

Did the run up on you without you even noticing them?

If you first noted the dogs from any sort of safe position - you should have contacted animal control to remove the dogs.

To me the only way you would be justified for shooting the dog would be if they charged and you didn't see them initially. Otherwise you unnecessarily subjected yourself to a dangerous situation, and dogs that could have been removed were killed.

[ArmedBear]

"If I'm attacked by a dog, I'm going to kill it, period"

Assuming you know what "attacked by a dog" means, that's probably a good policy.

However, many people here don't seem to have a clue what "attacked by a dog" means.

WRT Loomis' post... Look out for fluffy the poodle. Standard poodles can be dangerous dogs -- though most of them aren't. I say that as someone who has a pit bull whose only threat is her whip-like tail, as she begs you to pet her and blows kisses at you, and also as someone who (stupidly) almost got a nasty bite from a fluffy golden retriever the other day. I know better, but I wasn't thinking.

Never assume anything about a dog because of its breed. It may be a labrador, but it's not your labrador.

[mgkdrgn]

Loomis,

No worries, I've been around and owned dogs my whole life. Some rat terrier I'll just give a swift kick, but there are a couple pit bulls and rotts in the neighborhood here that are known killers. They literally decapitated the neighbors cat while he was beating on them with a shovel.

If they get out, they aren't looking for "treats", they are looking for blood. If they come after me & my dog when I'm out, I'll try once to shout them off (fat chance), if they keep coming, they're dead.

[Loomis]

Well, I'm no cat lover. But I guess I can sympathize with the cat owner on that one. A little bit.

As for kicking a rat terrier, I think even that would be overkill. Although, I don't think I've ever seen a rat terrier slow enough to allow itself to get kicked by a human. So knock yourself out. If you can actually make contact, I'd be impressed. I don't think I could do it.

[gripper]

I am someone who has had and loved several Dobies and PBT's.Whereas I get annoyed when folks blithley talk $hit about shooting a dog and "getting a medal" if it had the right heritage;I will also state that if you are honestly in a poisiton of danger or see another person in the same ;than by all means do ahat has to be done.
Gratuitously hurt or kill one of mine???Get gone and stay gone.

[Loomis]

Keep your pit in your own yard. No problem then. If you can't control your dog, you shouldn't own it.

Note: I'm not accusing you, it's just been my experience that very few pit owners seem to be physically capable of controling their own dog. And they don't seem to think there's anything wrong with that. And that is really pathetic.

[ArmedBear]

Honestly, there's no need to control our dog. But I can do so physically, we have the knowledge, and she is trained. Not that I have ever had to physically control her in 5 1/2 years. She goes to the dog park all the time, and kisses babies in strollers, gently.

People misunderstand what pit bulls are.


Note: I'm not accusing you, it's just been my experience that very few pit owners seem to be physically capable of controling their own dog. And they don't seem to think there's anything wrong with that. And that is really pathetic.

True about any dog. Again, people seem to think a pit bull is a different kind of animal or something. It's a dog.

Our intact male Vizsla (obnoxious and fast, but skinny) has wrestled with a 90 lb. intact male pit bull (someone else's) and it never escalated above playing. Pit bulls vary greatly in temperament, just like other dogs.

A lot of people around here have completely untrained dogs. A lot of what they do is not cool, no matter what dog breed they have. And they ask about our training collars, etc., like it's really weird that we want to be able to recall our dogs. I've seen this one lady with a dog, about 80 lbs., some Nordic mix that could really do damage, wait for a half hour because the dog didn't feel like coming back to the gate to go home. I've seen her do this time after time. She couldn't control the dog in a bad situation; she can't even get the dog to do the minimum in a non-stressful situation. But she seems unwilling to do anything about it, like training the dog would cramp its style or something.

Hunting dog people tend to be 1000% more rational about dogs than a lot of people in dog parks here. Too many ignorant people, too much influence from the PeTA types -- not that most people are animal rights extremists, but their messages seem to drown out any rational thought among many pet owners, unfortunately.

Bottom line? A dog is a domesticated wolf. Most need to be trained to act as humans want them to, or they will act like wild animals.

P.S. Of course the flipside of the PeTA-influenced people are the trigger-happy people these threads seem to bring out. They have some phobia or machismo issue, and they figure a gun will fix it. This is SO bad for RKBA in public opinion, it's hard to express -- just like the people with de facto feral dogs are bad for other dog owners.

[gripper]

No matter what breed of dog you choose to share your household with;it is essential for the two of you (or more) to spend time together ;both training AND socializing.Both are important irrespective of breed;but with large/strong Terriers one must remember that they (like all terriers) lack a reverse gear;they are playful,lovong and have a genuine sense of humor/fun-but never forget that they require as much attention/discipline(not abuse/neglect) as a child.
I used to love running with mine(damn,I miss having them around!)

[David904]

You ALWAYS have to control your dog... No matter what breed it is. Dogs are pack animals and will attempt to assert themselves as the Alpha where none is apparent.

Many breeds are bred to enhance/perpetuate certain behaviours and characteristics. This means that an attack from a PBT/GSD/Rottie/DP can be that much more devastating.

As a result of this, if threatened by an animal of that kind, I would be much more inclined to entertain the prospect of using deadly force to defend myself and my family against one.

Other breeds such as cocker spaniels are MUCH more inclined to bite, so you have to be careful anyways. ALWAYS control your dog. Otherwise, someone else will do it for you. And if your dog DID manage to hurt someone in the process... Get ready for lawsuits.