Hospitals and CCW


PDA






JackBurtonJr
August 30, 2008, 06:08 PM
In Indiana there's no provision in law for businesses to have No Guns signs so you don't often see them. In my county I have not noticed a single one on any of the area hospitals, but I went over to Memorial in South Bend and they had a big one on all their doors.

It got me curious as to how other states stack up. Is it automatically against the law to carry in a hospital in your state, or do the hospitals have to post... and do the hospitals actually post?

And BTW, if it is not too off topic... here is the reason I was in the hospital... the first grandchild, Baby Zoe.:)83897

If you enjoyed reading about "Hospitals and CCW" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Duke Junior
August 30, 2008, 06:10 PM
And BTW, if it is not too off topic... here is the reason I was in the hospital... the first grandchild, Baby Zoe:)

Congratulations,Grandpa!:D

In North Carolina,hospitals are off limits if a conspicuous sign is posted at the entrances.
Proper signs have the force of law in NC.
It is not ,IMO,uncommon to see these signs,unfortunately.

Zedo
August 30, 2008, 06:26 PM
Bone up on the laws . . . "Grandpa" (Congrats! Where's my cigar? :D)

Laws vary state to state. Hospitals may post "no guns" because they're the place where the shooting victim ends up after a gang-related ''drive by."

Logic follows that the other gang members would end up at the ER, and there'd be a "retaliation" mentality going on. Just like the gang-bangers end up at the courthouse, because that's where the other gang-bangers end up appearing before the judge.

And so . . .

Hospitals may have a "policy" which is NOT "criminal law." In most cases when a private business posts a "no guns" sign the restriction is legal and enforceable.

BUT -- a violation is NOT a criminal infraction, but rather a civil infraction. In most cases the "charge" is something on the order of "civil contempt." "Civil contempt" is a Class C misdemeanor -- just a bit more severe than a ticket for a moving violation in a car.

Management must press charges -- and if you're not being a jerk, will waive prosecution. They can ask you to leave the premises. They can ask you to leave the firearm in your vehicle.

I seriously doubt that they can bar you from the premises because you've had a firearm in possession and been asked to not carry it into the building -- unless you're being contentious. Being contentious is a different charge than "civil contempt." It's more on the order of "disorderly conduct" or "harassment" -- "threatening behavior likely to provoke escalation into a violent confrontation."

It's concealed, eh? You're behaving yourself, n'est-ce pas?

You might be in violation of hospital rules, but I'd be really surprised if you're breaking any "gun laws."

loneviking
August 30, 2008, 07:12 PM
In Nevada, they are not off limits but hospitals can post signs. The hospital I work at has one of those obnoxious signs. Ditto for one of the Urgent Care centers in town.

jrfoxx
August 30, 2008, 08:01 PM
Carry in a hospital in OR is 100% legal, and signs are meaningless here. Just the usual "they can ask you to leave if found out (just like they can ask you to leave for any other reason they want), and if you dont, you are tresspassing" deal.

pitbullman
August 30, 2008, 08:51 PM
i cc'ed in my local hospital here recently and saw no signs up on the main doors but found out later there was one sign posted on a side door where you never enter unless its after hours go figure.i wonder then if you can carry during hours and just not after hours or how that would work:banghead:

Duke Junior
August 30, 2008, 08:55 PM
i cc'ed in my local hospital here recently and saw no signs up on the main doors but found out later there was one sign posted on a side door where you never enter unless its after hours go figure.i wonder then if you can carry during hours and just not after hours or how that would work

Whether that sign is legal or not depends on your state,pitbullman.
Let me know and we'll figure it out.

mljdeckard
August 30, 2008, 09:02 PM
In Utah, the state has pre-emption. Hospitals are not on the short list of prohibited places. They can post, but the sign holds no weight of law. They can ask you to leave, as they can ask ANYONE to leave for any reason, but if you refuse, you are guilty of trespassing, a misdemeanor. (In the unlikely event it's prosecuted at all.) I recall at the birth of my last child, there was a sign that said something or other about weapons, I didn't even read it. If it's concealed, they have no reason to ask me to leave.

pitbullman
August 30, 2008, 09:33 PM
Quote:
i cc'ed in my local hospital here recently and saw no signs up on the main doors but found out later there was one sign posted on a side door where you never enter unless its after hours go figure.i wonder then if you can carry during hours and just not after hours or how that would work

Whether that sign is legal or not depends on your state,pitbullman.
Let me know and we'll figure it out.



as best as i can tell the sign's here in nc do hold there weight but having the one sign on the side entrance would seem to me there really not that concernd about it or theyd be all over the main doors

bragood
August 30, 2008, 09:59 PM
Anyone know about the laws in georgia?

Duke Junior
August 30, 2008, 10:16 PM
as best as i can tell the sign's here in nc do hold there weight but having the one sign on the side entrance would seem to me there really not that concernd about it or theyd be all over the main doors

They hold weight:

From the North Carolina Statutes:
"Where notice of carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous
notice or statement."But it MUST be conspicuous.A side entrance would not qualify,IMO.You are probably correct.
14415.11(
c)

Duke Junior
August 30, 2008, 10:23 PM
Anyone know about the laws in georgia?

Is a hospital in Georgia a "Public Gathering?"
If not, you are good to go.Good luck on getting rid of this nefarious Statute next session.

Georgia Code 1611127
A person is guilty of a misdemeanor when he carries (Police, Military and
others listed under GC 1611130
are exempt)
To or while at a public gathering any explosive compound, firearm, or knife designed for the
purpose of offense and defense.
(b) For the purpose of this Code section, "public gathering" shall include, but shall not be
limited to, athletic or sporting events, churches or church functions, political rallies or
functions, publicly owned or operated buildings, or establishments at which alcoholic
beverages are sold for consumption on the premises. Nothing in this Code section shall
otherwise prohibit the carrying of a firearm in any other public place by a person licensed or
permitted to carry such firearm by this part.
(c) This Code section shall not apply to competitors participating in organized sport shooting
events. Law enforcement officers, peace officers retired from state or federal law enforcement
agencies, judges, magistrates, solicitorsgeneral,
and district attorneys may carry pistols in
publicly owned or operated buildings.
(d) It is an affirmative defense to a violation of this Code section if a person notifies a law
enforcement officer or other person employed to provide security for a public gathering of the
presence of such item as soon as possible after learning of its presence and surrenders or
secures such item as directed by the law enforcement officer or other person employed to
provide security for a public gathering."

sharpetop
August 30, 2008, 10:28 PM
Enjoy your grandchild and congrats!

My 70 something old mother just had heart bypass surgery this past June in Richmond, IN. [all is well] Naturally, I was a regular visitor for 30 days or so and carried every day. Even if they had a sign I would have still carried. Signs mean nothing in Indiana. If discovered they could ask you to leave. If you refuse you can be arrested for tresspass. Concealed is concealed!

px4storm
August 30, 2008, 10:29 PM
In Ohio hospitals are not on the list of prohibited places to carry but they can post and all the ones around my location do post.

jad0110
August 30, 2008, 10:30 PM
The hospital just down the road from me has the obnoxious signs plastered all over every entrance. :fire:

On the other hand, the local mall has one tiny sign posted at the bottom right corner of one single entrance.

TStorm
August 30, 2008, 10:33 PM
In SC, hospitals are off-limits by statute. No sign necessary. This includes all medical facilities, to include doctors offices.

Have fun figuring out if dentists and vets qualify.

Places where carry is not allowed by statute...
(10) hospital, medical clinic, doctor’s office, or any other facility where medical services or procedures are performed unless expressly authorized by the employer.
A person who wilfully violates a provision of this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not less than one thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than one year, or both, at the discretion of the court and have his permit revoked for five years.
Nothing contained herein may be construed to alter or affect the provisions of Sections 10 11 320, 16 23 420, 16 23 430, 16 23 465, 44 23 1080, 44 52 165, 50 9 830, and 51 3 145.

MachIVshooter
August 30, 2008, 10:37 PM
In CO, hospitals are not prohibited and "no guns" or "no weapons" signs do not hold the weight of law. However, CO statutes state than any place with metal detectors permanently installed at all public entrances are off-limits to CCW. I know Denver General has detectors, but I have carried in other hospitals that didn't.

RNB65
August 30, 2008, 10:42 PM
Hospital carry is legal in VA unless posted otherwise.

butters
August 30, 2008, 11:30 PM
Hospitals are off limits in Michigan.
http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947--,00.html

rust collector
August 30, 2008, 11:47 PM
No problem in SD, and if they were posted, they'd get the same response the "no cellular phones beyond this point" get.

Mason38
August 31, 2008, 12:04 AM
The one here in Rapid City has the generic "no weapons" sign that includes knives too if I remember right... it's been a while since I've been there... but I think it's one of those 'if you're not stupid about it no one will care' type things.

-Allen

JackBurtonJr
August 31, 2008, 12:36 AM
Places where carry is not allowed by statute...
(10) hospital, medical clinic, doctor’s office,

A good lawsuit from a private doctor would probably end that part of the nonsense. Otherwise the state would have the power to just reach out willy nilly and declare any business off limits -- the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker.

Happiness Is A Warm Gun
August 31, 2008, 12:50 AM
A good lawsuit from a private doctor would probably end that part of the nonsense. Otherwise the state would have the power to just reach out willy nilly and declare any business off limits -- the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker.

How would that be more a restriction than states that only issue "may issue" licenses or limited purpose of licenses or simply all no CCW at all.

Until someone wins a Heller style court case creating a precedent that CCW is a right you can't try to sue and say restricting it is infringement.

STEP 1: Win court case that affirms carrying is a right protected by 2nd.

I am 100% convinced "carrying" is a right as in RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. However I am not SCOTUS so until a court says so it doesn't mean junk.

MedWheeler
August 31, 2008, 12:55 AM
In Florida, hospitals that exist "for treating the mentally-disabled" (paraphrased) are supposed to be off-limits, but the statute reads something like "except as permitted". It is unclear if a state-issued CCW/CCF permit qualifies as being "permitted".
I work for a hospital system, in its paramedic unit. Our hospital does not have a "psych ward" to speak of. What it does have, however, is a "no weapons" policy, posted on the doors of all its properties, including both campuses and all outpatient clinics.
Florida law forbids hospitals and most other businesses or employers from banning the firearms of CCF permit-holders who work, do business with, or visit them, from being locked within those permit-holders' vehicles while parked on the premises (the so-called "take your guns to work law".)
On the job? No, I cannot carry, but I can have it in my vehicle.
Off the job? I have to respect the wishes of the property-owner (hospital foundation) and refrain from carrying. If I choose not to refrain, then I would only be guilty of trespassing if asked to leave and failed to comply.

Zedo
August 31, 2008, 03:09 AM
OK -- on the other hand --

A Veterans Admin. hospital is a Federal Reservation, like a military post. It's off limits to carry and even to having a gun in the vehicle on the campus/site.

That's a different "hospital" rule than the standard hospital.

divemedic
August 31, 2008, 09:43 AM
Florida law forbids hospitals and most other businesses or employers from banning the firearms of CCF permit-holders who work, do business with, or visit them, from being locked within those permit-holders' vehicles while parked on the premises (the so-called "take your guns to work law".)

Just so you know, the court has stated that the portion of the law that applies to employees can be enforced, but the portion relating to customers and invitees cannot.

JackBurtonJr
August 31, 2008, 11:05 AM
How would that be more a restriction than states that only issue "may issue" licenses or limited purpose of licenses or simply all no CCW at all.

Until someone wins a Heller style court case creating a precedent that CCW is a right you can't try to sue and say restricting it is infringement.

You're going about it the wrong way. It has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment but everything to do with the authority of a state over a private business.

The case can be made without ever mentioning the 2nd.

DougW
August 31, 2008, 11:38 AM
Hospitals are also off limits in Texas. No posting is necessary.

Robby
August 31, 2008, 12:24 PM
Over the last few months I have had to go to a hospital, cancer center, doctors office complex. All joined together, you can move from one to the other without ever going outside.
The Cancer center, has no signs posted, the hospital patient entrance, no sign, the visitor entrance, no sign. However, the ER, and the Doctors building have no weapons signs. Now I understand that the signs have no force of law here in KY, but it is so funny that in one connected building set, only 2 areas entrances would even be posted.
I did not carry, as I was a patient and it is hard to conceal when your in a gown, or being X rayed, or radiated.
But If I was visiting someone else, my gun will stay in place, they can ask me to leave but that is about it.

Axctal
August 31, 2008, 12:32 PM
Correction about UTAH:

!!! Only PRIVATE property may ask you to leave.

State funded hospitals CAN NOT enact their own "rules" - they have to obey state law. As such, their signs are meaningless; they can not even ask you to leave.

CB900F
August 31, 2008, 12:41 PM
Fella's;

The local hospital has a "no weapons" sign on the door. I'm not sure if it carries the weight of law in Montana or not. My opinion is; the weapon is the mind, all else is just a tool.

One of these days, I'll have to do some research.

900F

divemedic
August 31, 2008, 01:09 PM
You're going about it the wrong way. It has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment but everything to do with the authority of a state over a private business.

The case can be made without ever mentioning the 2nd.

Those cases have already gone to court, and the court has consistently ruled that government has the regulatory power to force owners of property to allow activities on their property.

Handicapped parking, beach access, right of way and others have all been upheld.

Duke Junior
August 31, 2008, 01:59 PM
Fella's;

The local hospital has a "no weapons" sign on the door. I'm not sure if it carries the weight of law in Montana or not. My opinion is; the weapon is the mind, all else is just a tool.

One of these days, I'll have to do some research.

You can legally carry in a hospital in Montana,CB.The sign has no force of law.
One thing Montana and my state of NC have in common.I believe they are the only 2 states that do not allow concealed financial institution carry.
Feel free to use your drive in teller however!:)

JackBurtonJr
August 31, 2008, 03:54 PM
Those cases have already gone to court, and the court has consistently ruled that government has the regulatory power to force owners of property to allow activities on their property.

Handicapped parking, beach access, right of way and others have all been upheld.

Which... as we all might agree... is considerable different from having to power to not allow activities on private property.

divemedic
August 31, 2008, 07:48 PM
Not really. The legal reasoning is based around the takings clause of the fifth amendment, and the courts have been pretty consistent. The government has the power to compel behavior. For example, the following laws have been challenged and found constitutional:

1 A law requiring a business located on the beach to allow people to cross the business property to gain access to the beach.

2 Handicapped parking

3 Requiring businesses to allow service animals to enter the business.

4 A law requiring a business to allow a skateboard/biking path on the property.

wdlsguy
August 31, 2008, 07:53 PM
Hospitals are also off limits in Texas. No posting is necessary.
Not true, see Texas Penal Code 46.035(i) (http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.010.00.000046.00.htm#46.035.00)

Bob F.
August 31, 2008, 09:28 PM
In WV hospitals are not on the "verboten" list. However, as an employee I'm screwed. Where I work part time they have a sign that says only "ON DUTY" LEO's may carry. Yeah, right.

Stay safe.
Bob

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
August 31, 2008, 09:33 PM
All the hospitals here have the *stupid signs* (because you'd have to be stupid to put one up that says "No Weapons"). I couldn't find anyone just inside the door to tell me whether or not a pen and pocketknife are "weapons" and therefore prohibited, so I assumed that must mean that whether an item is a weapon depends on the intent of the user. I had no ill intent, so I figure they must not mean to prohibit my CCW gun. So in I go......

JackBurtonJr
September 1, 2008, 01:15 AM
"Not really. The legal reasoning is based around the takings clause of the fifth amendment, and the courts have been pretty consistent. The government has the power to compel behavior."

Once again... all your examples have to do with the government forcing a private business to do something proactive, either to behave a certain way or to provide certain services.... which is quite different from forcing a private business not to allow CCW.

Plus, every one of your examples can be justified by the state (however poorly) as "benefitting" greater society.

Care to tell us just how they can justify a "benefit to society" for people not being allowed by law to carry in a doctor's office when in virtually every other private business the government chooses to be neutral?

Valkman
September 1, 2008, 02:59 AM
It's legal here unless there's a sign, and I've never looked for a sign! I really don't care if they don't want my CCW in there, it's going in if I am.

divemedic
September 1, 2008, 07:13 AM
Once again... all your examples have to do with the government forcing a private business to do something proactive, either to behave a certain way or to provide certain services.... which is quite different from forcing a private business not to allow CCW.

Plus, every one of your examples can be justified by the state (however poorly) as "benefitting" greater society.

Care to tell us just how they can justify a "benefit to society" for people not being allowed by law to carry in a doctor's office when in virtually every other private business the government chooses to be neutral?

Sigh. It does not matter if there is a benefit to society or not- the only think the court is concerned with is constitutionality of a law. There is nothing in the COTUS that requires a reason or benefit to the law. Finding benefit is up to the legislative branch, not the judiciary. Whether you or I agree is not an issue- if we don't like it, we can vote in a legislator that will change it.

Florida passed a law prohibiting an employer from taking disciplinary action against an employee who has a firearm in his car, or who refuses to allow his car to be searched for firearms. This law is likely to be found constitutional.

A law prohibiting a business owner from allowing smoking in his building is constitutionally no different from prohibiting carry in his building. OSH laws prohibit certain behaviors AND require certain other behaviors, and have been found on many occasions to be constitutional. That is just the way it is.

JackBurtonJr
September 1, 2008, 11:38 AM
Sigh. It does not matter if there is a benefit to society or not- the only think the court is concerned with is constitutionality of a law.

Not when a singular type of business is differentiated by the law.

A law prohibiting a business owner from allowing smoking in his building is constitutionally no different from prohibiting carry in his building.

And how long do you think it would stand if the law read that, out of all the types of businesses in the state, only tire stores could not permit smoking in the store?

And the reason why the courts let these laws stand in the first place is the "benefit to society" standard. From where else does a state somehow gain the power to demand a private business do anything?

It certainly isn't found in any Constitution, federal or state.

We have not yet reached the time when the state is all powerful.

If you enjoyed reading about "Hospitals and CCW" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!