Nipples frozen


PDA






oneiron
August 30, 2008, 10:05 PM
The nipples on the cylinder of my Pietta 58 Remington from Cabel's came frozen, and at my first attempt to remove them I damaged one side of the nipple wrench that came with the pistol. Does and one know of a socket type that I can use in impact wrench to remove these suckers?

If you enjoyed reading about "Nipples frozen" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
GRB
August 30, 2008, 10:10 PM
I would think some penetrating oil, a few light taps every couple of minutes over the course 15 minutes or so with addition of more penetrating oil, and they should come loose.

mykeal
August 30, 2008, 10:19 PM
Kroil is my favorite penetrating oil. That should work.

Take your current nipple wrench (the damaged one) and throw it as far as you can into the deepest lake/river you can find. Then either buy a new hardened one, buy a regular one and harden it yourself with Kasenite, or make one out of a socket by cutting a slot in the end.

Mike OTDP
August 31, 2008, 12:36 AM
Concur with both. Hardened wrenches are the way to go. Kroil works OK, but give it several hours to penetrate.

Another trick I've used is to put the cylinder in very hot water - near boiling. The heat loosens things a touch.

frontiergander
August 31, 2008, 12:59 AM
ouch! Nothing fun about frozen nipples. Warmer jacket perhaps?

1858rem
August 31, 2008, 01:02 AM
on both my two spare cylinders i just got, and the original that came with my gun, most of the nipples were sized, just kept tapping an trying again worked pretty quick. on the original i still have one sized nipple though, actually broke the wrench(non hardened) after repeatedly having to straiten it out and try again. i just put a mark on the chamber and make sure to double and triple check before i ram the ball in so i dont forget powder lol

Smokin_Gun
August 31, 2008, 02:21 AM
Saok the cylinder in Desiel fuel for a few days use a brush on the cones. Get a 7/32" X 1/4 drive socket made in the USA cut it to fit the cone slot add a 1/4" breaker bar and you are set.

Desiel works when nothin else will...
Best a luck,

SG

Zeke/PA
August 31, 2008, 10:20 AM
+1 on the 1/4" drive socket.
A drop of "Neversieze" on the nipple threads is a good idea and don't over torque when installing.
The nipples on my Old Army are 9/32 hex and a nut driver works five for me.
Zeke

fineredmist
August 31, 2008, 10:35 AM
Once you have this problem resolved you can prevent future headaches by appling a small amout of Never Seize on the threads before installing the nipples. It has worked for me and I highly recommend it.

Voodoochile
August 31, 2008, 10:44 AM
The methods mentioned so far works like a charm in removing stubbern nipples & in the past when I did have one I have used Kerosene & also the boiling methods of removing them.

The anti sieze from the hardware or auto parts store will be your best friend in preventing this from happening again but also when reinstalling them don't use any torque on em, as a matter of fact I only use the shank portion of my wrench to install the nipples not the cross section therefore along with the anti sieze I've yet to have a stuck nipple cept from a new pistol/rifle.

scrat
August 31, 2008, 11:39 AM
Expansion Contraction. Get that cylinder hot. Then dump it in a bucket of ice water. That shock can loosen up the nipple After that though. i would soak it like the others said then use a very good nipple wrench. Like what voovoochile said you have to use a good anti sieze. I use permatex gray on all nipples and breech plugs

frontiergander
August 31, 2008, 02:04 PM
i've heard that just soaking it in boiling water or even just hot tap water will unfreeze them.

jimrbto
August 31, 2008, 02:30 PM
Follow Scrats advice= = = = guaranteed to ruin a cylinder!
Stick to penetrating oil and pressure with a GOOD nipple wrech

4v50 Gary
August 31, 2008, 02:44 PM
Inasmuch as I respect Scrat, I also would not get any metal red hot. Getting metal red hot and quenching it can harden the metal, making it too brittle to be safe (to shoot). We did that to knives in a blacksmithing class and afterwards tempered the metal to give it some flexibility so it wouldn't shatter.

oneiron
August 31, 2008, 03:20 PM
Thank you for your answers. They will be helpful.

Sagetown
August 31, 2008, 03:20 PM
:what: Hey oneiron:
Place the cylinder on your workbench, along with a spraycan of penetrating oil, a nipple wrench, and get your wife's hair blowdryer. Spray the nipples from both ends of the cylinder. Let it set for a few minutes. With the blowdryer heat the nipple end of the cylinder. While the nipples are good and warm take the wrench and loosen each nipple. :D

Sage

scrat
August 31, 2008, 03:50 PM
Guys not red hot. Hot water. that will get it to what about 160-190. Not boiling hot water. enought to get it to 160. then cool it down. You may be able to put a wrench on it then and take it off. I have done this on machines a lot of time. Those temperatures are not extreme enough to impact the metal. There are machine shops that do this everyday. Take connecting rods. you would have to heat up the end of the connecting rod to insert the wrisp pin into the piston and rod. Or take sleeves. in order to sleeve an engine the sleeves would be put into a freezer so that they could be inserted into the block. You ever have a bolt that wont come off when hot. But then when it cools down it comes off easy. Expansion contraction. NOt to harden the metal but to excite the metal

Sagetown
August 31, 2008, 04:16 PM
Expansion Contraction. Get that cylinder red hot.

:D scrat ; You've always been a good source for INFO - - -I'm glad you clarified yourself. There for a minute I thought you'd lost it.

Here on the farm, large machinery parts can be difficult in removing large bolts and nuts. We use cutting torches to heat them a little bit for easy removal.

Sage

scrat
August 31, 2008, 04:20 PM
caught that. i guess thats what happens when your trying to watch a good movie and type on the internet as well. Has anyone seen Kelleys heros lately. Man that movie is so good

4v50 Gary
August 31, 2008, 04:42 PM
Thanks for the clarification. You have redeemed yourself and may resume your post as Grand Master of the Gonne. ;)

scrat
August 31, 2008, 04:45 PM
hahahah i better stay off here for a while just put on another movie. i read what i wrote and thought what the heck. But then its sunday and what Labor day tomorrow. So just relaxing today

gw1894
September 1, 2008, 09:17 AM
LOL, same exact thing happened to me. I actually got the nipples off the first cylinder, but I put too much pressure on the spare cylinder and my first wrench broke on its second or third nipple.

I soaked a q-tip with kroil and dabbed it into the chambers around the threads, let both extra cylinders sit over night and they came out easy the next day. Was quite a relief. Once removed, I washed and scrubbed the nipple threads and dabbed some more kroil on'em before replacing. Shoved a bunch of kroil soaked q-tips into the cylinder's threads as well, and it got a bunch of black crud out.

If you don't have kroil, I'd think other similar lubes could get the job done as well.

I shot my 1858 Target model for the first time last week and am now a BP enthusiast, by the way. I left the 5.5" barreled 1858 and spare cylinder at home because I didn't want to get them nipples stuck on any more than they were - had to wait for a new nipple wrench in the mail.

After putting about 40 rounds thru the target model, the kroil coated nipples removed quite easily.

Omnivore
September 1, 2008, 06:47 PM
I've had to free thousands of stuck screws and bolts. Sometimes heat works like magic, and sometimes it does next to nothing. Depends on the nature of the problem, but try it nonetheless.

Get a good wrench;

There is no substitute for having the right tool. Why on Earth some companies sell these dead-soft "wrenches" and "screwdrivers" is a mystery. Maybe they think too many people respect them and they're trying to shed some of that respect. Yeah, that must be it.

You probably want to remove the nipples each time you clean the gun (which is every time you fire it) to avoid this in the future.

sharps59
September 2, 2008, 01:02 PM
Neversieze but not w/ graphfite in it.
It may or may not have been the cause but a frind used it on his musket. keep having cookoffs until he stoped using it.. It seems the graphfite would burn/smolder

sundance44s
September 2, 2008, 01:28 PM
If some company in America would just make us a good hardened nipple wrench ........I had a machinest make me one and haven`t had a problem since .....I was going through 4 of those soft cheap Itilian made wrenches a year ...throw away wrenches .

Omnivore
September 2, 2008, 03:52 PM
I suppose one could get a new throw-away Italian wrench and case harden it. I stress new, because of it's ever been used, even once, it'll be deformed.

Jim K
September 3, 2008, 01:02 PM
The reason screws and nipples bugger up instead of coming out is that the wrench/screwdriver rides up and out or or off the screw slot or nipple.

Here is about the best way if you have a drill press. First, soak things with a penetrant.

Then, remove the handle from a conventional nipple wrench or use a short screwdriver blade like those sold for power tools.

Chuck the tool in the drill press.

Clamp the item (gun or cylinder) in the drill press vise, padding as needed. (You may need help to hold a long gun in place.)

With NO power, bring the drill press chuck down so the driver/wrench fits into or over the nipple/screw.

Lock the press down or hold it down to keep pressure on while you manually (NO POWER) work the chuck back and forth.

It is a rare stuck screw or nipple that won't yield to this treatment. If it won't, it is probably time to use the drill press as a drill and drill out the stubborn piece.

Jim

HisSoldier
September 3, 2008, 08:05 PM
"If some company in America would just make us a good hardened nipple wrench"

We have production capability and a good heat treater. 4140 @ 45-50 RC?

I just bought another 1858 after a 35 year hiatus. Pietta SS, the wife always liked shooting the old blue one so many years ago, maybe she will again.

Cosmoline
September 3, 2008, 08:06 PM
Kroil will work wonders. Be careful though it's HIGHLY toxic and if you get it on your fingers you will probably be able to remove them with ease the next morning too ;-) Wear gloves and do it in a ventilated area.

oneiron
September 6, 2008, 12:16 AM
Does any one know where to buy a good nipple wrench for the Pietta 58 remington. It uses a number 10 cci percussion cap.
I have a heat gun I used on it and have soaked it for days with a very good penetration spray I get from the JD dealer.
A 4.5 mm socket seem to fit over the nipples, and I will file it out, but I will have to get a very good adapter to use a impact wrench.
I have been reluctant to put a torch on it. I called Cabela's, and I am waiting for there return call to see if we can work something out about another cylinder. We will see if the guy calls back; he said he would check into problem.
New subject: I ran out of bp, and I purchased a can of Pryodex P. I have fired about six cylinders of it , and it is the dirtiest, gummiest junk I have ever put in a pistol. I ordered 10# of Goex today. It would be great if they could get the rule changed on bp shipments.

scrat
September 6, 2008, 12:53 AM
stick to Goex.

Smokin_Gun
September 6, 2008, 05:01 AM
Scrat you seen my list in a couple other forums? Need, want, or lookin' for anything?


SG

Chawbaccer
September 6, 2008, 09:21 AM
I make my own nipple wrenches out of a quarter inch grade 8 bolt. Center drill one end a eighth inch to clear the cone and use a small grinder to cut a slot, touch up to fit as necessary with a file. Be carefull not to over heat while grinding. Drill a slot for a cross bar, 10p nail works fine or leave the head on if yoiu want to use a wrench. They arent that hard to make and will get stolen, borrowed, lost or just given away before they wear out.

mykeal
September 6, 2008, 10:14 AM
I'd have to disagree that they aren't that hard to make.

Certainly not difficult if you possess the equipment but drilling a straight hole in the center of a Grade 8 bolt isn't a hand-held job. It's well beyond most home hobby craft benches. Most people don't have drill presses with cylindrical vise attachments and high strength drill bits. And most don't know that Ballistol or any of the other mineral oil based solvents will work as a cooling agent.

It's a great idea, but not a simple task.

HisSoldier
September 7, 2008, 09:04 PM
Man! Advice is weirdly variable! At a gun show yesterday I mentioned that about a hardened wrench, the fellow said there is no reason for a hardened wrench. Maybe he was thinking real hard, but I'm thinking (As I said ) 45-50 RC.

The obvious reason for a wrench being hard-ER than the objects they fit to is that one wrench may be used on many many objects, the wear would be on the driving wrench therefore rather than on the many driven objects.

I see no reason to have the wrench fail before the nipple does EXCEPT in the case where idiots have no idea of their strength and over tighten, even then a torque limiter would be the answer.

Anyway, I bought a wrench and 6 #11 "Hardened" nipples. I wonder if the wrench purchased has enough carbon to harden? I can do a rockwell test on it. Maybe I'll cut a tiny wafer off the other end and see if it will harden, if so I'll harden and temper it to my desire.

GRB
September 7, 2008, 11:18 PM
Gun tools, like screwdrivers, are often made to break before they would break a screw. They are made of softer metal than are the guns so as not to bugger up any gun parts. I imagine this could hold true for a nipple wrench. If the wrench snaps off the nipple, leaving behind the threads inside the cylinder, would it not be a royal pain in the neck to get it out.. So the wrench goes first, so pieces do not get broken off remaining inside the gun.

Tony Sopranno
September 8, 2008, 02:13 AM
I make my own nipple wrenches out of a quarter inch grade 8 bolt. Center drill one end a eighth inch to clear the cone and use a small grinder to cut a slot, touch up to fit as necessary with a file. Be carefull not to over heat while grinding. Drill a slot for a cross bar, 10p nail works fine or leave the head on if yoiu want to use a wrench. They arent that hard to make and will get stolen, borrowed, lost or just given away before they wear out.
-Chawbaccer

How do you get the flats on the inside, to engage the nipple, or is it simply by friction?

jdomin
September 8, 2008, 06:42 AM
let it set for a few hours

jojosdad
September 8, 2008, 07:03 AM
Kroil will work wonders. Be careful though it's HIGHLY toxic
Cosmo - This is the first time I've heard of this. Can you direct me to a source please?

Patrick Henry
September 8, 2008, 07:19 AM
Place the cylinder on your workbench, along with a spraycan of penetrating oil, a nipple wrench, and get your wife's hair blowdryer. Spray the nipples from both ends of the cylinder. Let it set for a few minutes. With the blowdryer heat the nipple end of the cylinder. While the nipples are good and warm take the wrench and loosen each nipple.

Personally, I prefer just a romantic dinner, but to each his own. :cool:

Chawbaccer
September 8, 2008, 07:53 AM
Tony, I use a dremel with a grinding wheel. If a grade 8 is too hard try making one with something different. I don't claim to drill an accurate hole, but it will clear the nipple cone. I will look for my camera and post a picture later.

mykeal
September 8, 2008, 08:00 AM
Man! Advice is weirdly variable! At a gun show yesterday I mentioned that about a hardened wrench, the fellow said there is no reason for a hardened wrench. Maybe he was thinking real hard, but I'm thinking (As I said ) 45-50 RC.

The obvious reason for a wrench being hard-ER than the objects they fit to is that one wrench may be used on many many objects, the wear would be on the driving wrench therefore rather than on the many driven objects.

I see no reason to have the wrench fail before the nipple does EXCEPT in the case where idiots have no idea of their strength and over tighten, even then a torque limiter would be the answer.

Anyway, I bought a wrench and 6 #11 "Hardened" nipples. I wonder if the wrench purchased has enough carbon to harden? I can do a rockwell test on it. Maybe I'll cut a tiny wafer off the other end and see if it will harden, if so I'll harden and temper it to my desire.
Gun tools, like screwdrivers, are often made to break before they would break a screw. They are made of softer metal than are the guns so as not to bugger up any gun parts. I imagine this could hold true for a nipple wrench. If the wrench snaps off the nipple, leaving behind the threads inside the cylinder, would it not be a royal pain in the neck to get it out.. So the wrench goes first, so pieces do not get broken off remaining inside the gun.

I think you misunderstand the situation. The issue is not whether the nipple 'fails' somehow before the wrench. It's that the nipple cannot be turned. The wrench reaches plastic failure before the breakout torque value is reached. Either the bearing area of the wrench or the modulus of the material must be increased, and since geometry prevents adding material (ie, the wrench would no longer fit in the cavity) the only solution is to harden the wrench material.

Breaking the nipple off in the cylinder is possible, but unlike the srew/screwdriver interface, it's very unlikely due to the geometries of the bearing surfaces of the nipple and wrench. It would take a very high strength steel or titanium wrench material, not just a hardened surface on a regular nipple wrench.

HisSoldier
September 8, 2008, 05:40 PM
One of the PIA's of my business is removing broken off bolts, screws etc. when they have rusted in, or been overtightened and snapped off by cavemen. I'm not worried about either of those causes as I won't let them rust and I'm painfully aware of torque requirements. (No caveman)

I would assume the torque required would be no more than 10 foot pounds, same as an M6 cap screw. These nipples I bought are 6 x .75 MM thread.

On a lark I took the wrench I bought from the expert who said it didn't need to be hard, and figuring that if it was made of 12L14 and wouldn't harden I'd toss it, so I heated it to a bright red in a torch flame and quenched it in water. It came out glass hard! It was dead soft before. Then, of course, I tempered it. That should do it.
On another subject, do the stainless Pietta's come with carbon steel or stainless nipples? If they were made of 440 they could be hardened to 59 RC, plenty hard enough for the application I would think, heck, a file is 60 I seem to recall.

Smokin_Gun
September 8, 2008, 11:53 PM
I only tighten mine to about 30 in. lb. or so they jus' need to be snug, if no torque value is given definatley don't over torque...LoL!:rolleyes:
I jus' lube the threads snug um up back it off bring it back to litely snug and it works I only break or damage wrenches on new or Used Revs just purchased not on the not on the ones I've been shootin'. Be gentle cones are nipples and have feelins'.;)


SG

mykeal
September 9, 2008, 12:05 AM
All the Italian factory OEM nipples are carbon steel. Stainless nipples are available from aftermarket suppliers, however. At least one company, Treso, makes them from the Ampo bronze alloy.

sundance44s
September 9, 2008, 06:46 AM
If I could I`d put Ruger nipples in all my pistols ...Now thats a real nipple wrench .

oneiron
September 10, 2008, 10:34 AM
Cabela's called back they are going to swap out my cylinder for another one. End of frozen nipples problem. But this does not solve my problem of finding a good nipple wrench for these nipples that are installed on the cylinders now.

sundance44s
September 10, 2008, 11:15 AM
Oneiron ...when you get the new cylinder it will have nipples in it ...before you do anything with it ..be sure and take the nipples out and put some antiseize compound on the threads ....Those soft nipple wrenches will work ok..as long as you keep the antiseze on the nipples.

hso
September 10, 2008, 12:06 PM
Kroil will work wonders. Be careful though it's HIGHLY toxic
Cosmo - This is the first time I've heard of this. Can you direct me to a source please?

It isn't "HIGHLY toxic". While you might consider what was said to be hyperbole, there is a real definition for "highly toxic" hazardous materials and Kroil doesn't even come close to meeting the definition for "toxic" much less "highly toxic (http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/toxic.html)" with an oral LD50 or over 2200 and a dermal LD50 of 1500.

It isn't completely harmless and certainly isn't anything I would handle without nitrile gloves (I deal with HAZMAT all the time so I'm more careful than most folks), but you're fingers aren't going to fall off nor are you going to drop dead from using it. Here's the MSDS for it - https://secure.cnchost.com/kanolabs.com//msds/kroil_liquid.pdf


Toxic
Definition

* Toxic is defined by OSHA 29 CFR 1910.1200 App A as a chemical which falls in any of these three categories:

1. A chemical that has a median lethal dose (LD50) of more than 50 milligrams per kilogram but not more than 500 milligrams per kilogram of body weight when administered orally to albino rats weighing between 200 and 300 grams each.

2. A chemical that has a median lethal dose (LD50) of more than 200 milligrams per kilogram but not more than 1,000 milligrams per kilogram of body weight when administered by continuous contact for 24 hours (or less if death occurs within 24 hours) with the bare skin of albino rabbits weighing between two and three kilograms each.

3. A chemical that has a median lethal concentration (LC50) in air of more than 200 parts per million but not more than 2,000 parts per million by volume of gas or vapor, or more than two milligrams per liter but not more than 20 milligrams per liter of mist, fume, or dust, when administered by continuous inhalation for one hour (or less if death occurs within one hour) to albino rats weighing between 200 and 300 grams each.

stirrer

When you work around chemicals be sure you have a safety station like this one from Safety Emporium.


* Highly toxic is defined by OSHA as:

1. A chemical that has a median lethal dose (LD50) of 50 milligrams or less per kilogram of body weight when administered orally to albino rats weighing between 200 and 300 grams each.

2. A chemical that has a median lethal dose (LD50) of 200 milligrams or less per kilogram of body weight when administered by continuous contact for 24 hours (or less if death occurs within 24 hours) with the bare skin of albino rabbits weighing between two and three kilograms each.

3. A chemical that has a median lethal concentration (LC50) in air of 200 parts per million by volume or less of gas or vapor, or 2 milligrams per liter or less of mist, fume, or dust, when administered by continuous inhalation for one hour (or less if death occurs within one hour) to albino rats weighing between 200 and 300 grams each.

* Toxicology is the study of the nature, effects, detection, and mitigation of poisons and the treatment or prevention of poisoning.

* A toxicant is a toxic or poisonous substance. Toxicants may be chemical or physical in nature. Examples include arsenic, benzene, and radiation.

* A toxin is a highly toxic protein produced by certain plants, animals or pathogenic bacteria. Examples include snake venom and anthrax. All toxins are toxicants, but only those toxicants produced by living organisms are toxins.

* Substances that are toxic only to specific types of cells or organs are called cytotoxins.

Iamsniper1
September 10, 2008, 02:16 PM
The only really good nipple wrench has been mentioned above,use a 7/32x1/4 drive socket(Cut slot to fit)HELLO VIETNAM!!!!!Best hot damn nipple wrench ever,just boil cylinder to taste,remove from H2O,slightly cool,remove nipples,clean said cylinder,add dash of NEVER SEIZE,reinstall said nipples and you're good to go,take about 5 minutes to make one,last forever.

oneiron
September 16, 2008, 08:09 PM
I received my replacement cylinder from Cabela's. Three nipples came out like a dream, and three are still in the cylinder. I use Zep 45 NC penetrating Lubricant with Teflon and VYDAX. I let it soak over night. No luck This is the best stuff I have use on the farm to get out rusted bolts. It looks like I am going to order some Kroil and try it. As soon as I can get a little time I am going to make me a nipple wrench.

oneiron
September 17, 2008, 12:22 PM
Brute force and a good nipple wrench will do it every time. The End.

Sagetown
September 17, 2008, 05:16 PM
:neener::D
Way to go oneiron! ;) :p:D

I knew you could do it.

Strange part about that new cylinder is why those three (3) were froze, and the others weren't.

HisSoldier
September 19, 2008, 10:54 PM
"I see no reason to have the wrench fail before the nipple does"

"I think you misunderstand the situation."

Not at all. If the wrench rides over the nipple instead of turning it that is a failure. Soft wrenches will do that regularly, based on what others have said here. I've never had a nipple stuck, but if I did I'd want to apply consistent force without the wrench failing. If a nipple failed before the wrench did I'd assume the nipple was too soft or corroded in place. But it sounds like most wrenches are too soft by a long shot.
Removing "frozen" threaded objects is as much an art as a science, I've done more than my share in my business.
BTW, it seems to me that a screwdriver handle would serve better to drive a nipple wrench than the handles they sell these with. The torque values mentioned in relation to nipples would easily be met with that plus it would be easier to start the nipples square, I noticed that with the little wrenches it's easy to lose straight in line thread entry as the handle interferes. Of course it wouldn't be "period" but neither are a lot of things most of us use with BP revolvers, like driving to the range. :)

If you enjoyed reading about "Nipples frozen" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!