Harvard statistics textbook proves you gun owners are all "Flat Earthers"


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wacki
August 31, 2008, 02:41 AM
Here is the data from page 1 of the textbook:
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7517/guns1jh8.jpg

Here is the conclusion on page 2:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1517/guns2blockedlu9.jpg

Notice the last three words!

Here is a link to the book on Amazon:
Principles of Biostatistics
http://www.amazon.com/Principles-Biostatistics-CD-ROM-Marcello-Pagano/dp/0534229026

The reviews of the book seem pretty positive! Almost 4 stars!

Oh and here is some guy shopping for groceries in Switzerland. It's safe because of strict anti-gun legislation!

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/1755/450pxcarolinemigrosp100lv9.jpg


Like my textbook says, you are all flat earthers!!!!!

:neener::scrutiny::banghead:



And one last fun fact for the day:

http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/

Beer and Wine are readily available at Swiss Ranges. It's not uncommon to start a bottle of wine before the days shooting, and to finish the bottle after the day's shooting has ended. Yet, Swiss Ranges remain largely accident free.

If you would like I can e-mail you full page scans but that's everything gun related on pages 1 & 2 of the textbook.

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Marcus84
August 31, 2008, 02:43 AM
I didn't know Brady and the VPC were making textbooks now.

wacki
August 31, 2008, 02:54 AM
*deleted*

denfoote
August 31, 2008, 02:57 AM
That means all we have to do is herd all the anti's to the edge, at gunpoint, and shove them off!!
Problem solved!!

kentucky bucky
August 31, 2008, 03:02 AM
I would rather be a "flat Earther" than a "coolaid drinker" like thae author of that textbook!

wacki
August 31, 2008, 03:06 AM
By the way both of the people that wrote this book are professors at Harvard. Just edited title of thread to reflect that. This book is widely used at other Universities as well.

A google search of this:
"Principles of Biostatistics" Pagano site:*.edu

Gives you a pretty decent idea of how many universities teach out of this text.

Ohen Cepel
August 31, 2008, 03:18 AM
It's good to see that their bias didn't leak into what they were actually trying to teach:fire:

I went through a lot of this a few years back in grad school. The stats are really messed up to say the least.

A big one that I fought against is that there is a line the read something like "legal intervention" in the US stats. The professor could not/would no answer what that was for a week or more. Finally he took the time to look into it.

That is police shootings! Now, we, the gun owners are getting blamed for it when some scumbag that needs shot gets shot by the police.

To say the least these "professors" are using a stats class (and we all know that the numbers will say anything you want them to) to preach their liberal dribble.

Anyway, what else would one expect these days? Real impartial education based on facts?!!? Couldn't have that.

jakemccoy
August 31, 2008, 03:36 AM
Was the woman packing something? What's that around her neck? Anyway, that's an awesome pic.

TAB
August 31, 2008, 03:44 AM
talk about losing your creditablity...

Prince Yamato
August 31, 2008, 03:52 AM
Here's what I've learned as am nearing the end of my PhD.

1) Not everyone with "Dr." before their name is an expert

2) Usually, to get "Dr." before you name you have to publish a thesis (which often ends up as the basis of a book which you will write).

3) Textbooks written by non-experts usually contain "non-expert" data.

4) Not everyone who comes out of Harvard, Yale, or Julliard with a PhD is an expert, but they sure think they are.

rainbowbob
August 31, 2008, 05:03 AM
Ironic that the authors unwittingly use statistics to prove that statistics can be distorted to "prove" just about anything.

goon
August 31, 2008, 05:05 AM
Once upon a time...
A statistics professor made it very clear to me that correlation does not equal causation.

You'd think someone writing a textbook would be smart enough to know that.

Zedo
August 31, 2008, 05:16 AM
"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-- Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)

SCKimberFan
August 31, 2008, 09:17 AM
This is from Harvard? So is Obama. Interesting correlation isn't it?

Standing Wolf
August 31, 2008, 09:36 AM
Seems our social betters have spoken.

Blackbeard
August 31, 2008, 09:43 AM
God, there are so many holes in this argument -- I can't believe it comes from Harvard. Wait, yes I can. Egads, is this our highest institution of learning in this country? Let me put it in simple terms for you Harvard numbskulls:

CORRELATION DOES NOT IMPLY CAUSALITY.

Statistics only indicate a difference between populations, not the cause of the difference. Yes, more Americans get killed than Japanese. We have a higher percentage of handguns here, but we also have a higher percentage of Americans. Which is the cause of the difference?

If you had a statistic that showed that people who drink are more likely to be unemployed -- did the drinking cause the unemployment, or did the unemployment cause the drinking? Statistics don't show causes -- only differences.

Only a Harvard grad (or your average Rosie O'Donnell fan) would draw a conclusion from a single statistic.

Of course, no matter how powerful, no statistic will convince everyone that a given conclusion is true.

Well it certainly seems to have convinced them.

JCMAG
August 31, 2008, 09:45 AM
General rule of thumb: anytime a "scholar" is attempting to make an argument for gun ownership equaling gun violence by use of statistics from Switzerland, they are debunking their own claim.

General Geoff
August 31, 2008, 10:05 AM
Their example statistics are also skewed because the different countries have different definitions of "killed by handgun."

ArmedBear
August 31, 2008, 10:11 AM
Furthermore, citing these numbers as a refutation of "guns don't kill people, people do" is an example of the gross misuse of statistics. I believe it rises to a logical fallacy as well.

They did not cite the numbers of people murdered in each country, so it is impossible to determine whether the tools used influence the number of people killed significantly.

They did not specify whether a handgun was used in defense by a policeman, an innocent homeowner, or offensively by a criminal.

WRT correlation, one could look at the list of countries and, if one didn't worry about proving causation, make a rather simple observation: ethnic diversity kills. The United States is far and away the most ethnically diverse in the list.

unspellable
August 31, 2008, 10:13 AM
I'm no Flat Earther. The Earth is an oblate spheroid. The reason for the oblateness is obvious if you look at a globe. It's due to the pressure from the wing nuts at the poles.

Drgong
August 31, 2008, 10:28 AM
There are lies, dammed lies, and statistics.

Double Naught Spy
August 31, 2008, 11:00 AM
Harvard statistics textbook proves you gun owners are all "Flat Earthers"

I think you completely misread something here and failed to understand what statistics mean. Last point first. Statistics don't 'prove' anything. They are just probabilities.

You claim in the title that the book proves gun owners are flat earthers. No, that isn't what is being said at all.

"...after all, there are still members of the Flat Earth Society."

It does not say that they are all members, but that the society still exists with members. The author is suggesting that it is just as silly to believe in the notion of the Flat Earth as it is that guns don't kill people. The author is NOT saying gun owners are members of the Flat Earth Society.

The book has an obvious bias, but the humor you have tried to find and the fun you are poking is just as wrong as the implications of the textbook.

LKB3rd
August 31, 2008, 11:12 AM
I would rather be a "flat Earther" than a "coolaid drinker" like thae author of that textbook!

They are the "kool-aid mixers," not the drinkers, appealing to the common "we are smarter than everyone else" attitude of many of the students by comparing people who refuse to give over all power to the government to "flat-earthers."

sprithitler
August 31, 2008, 11:20 AM
As far as i can see Gunrelated murders i n USA in 1979 was roughly half of the total murders in USA that year

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

If half of Swedish murders in 1979 had been by firearm that number for sweden would have been roughly 55.
The difference between roughly 110 murders one fifth of which are by firearms (and today the number of deaths by firearms in sweden has increased, despite stricter firearms laws) and 21 460 murders, roughly half of which is perpetrated using firearms can not be explained by either the difference in population size (roughly 1 to 20, which would give sweden roughly 1060 murders in 1979), nor by the amount of firearms in USA, remove all firearms related murders above one forth of the total perpetrated without firearms you still get 13000 murders, that would still be 650 murders compared to the roughly 110 actual murders in sweden.
The explanation to the higher amounts of murders in USA can not be found in firearms, so where do you find it? whichever way you look at it the firearms are merely a tool, and though they make more attempted murders successful, they dont explain the high discrepancy in murders even when firearms deaths are lifted out.

Hands of blue
August 31, 2008, 11:45 AM
“There are three kinds of lies — lies, damned lies and statistics.”-Mark Twain

Gentleman Ranker
August 31, 2008, 11:52 AM
+1 to PrinceYamato (Today 02:52 AM) #10 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4868568&postcount=10). Same same for Blackbeard (Today, 08:43 AM) #15 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4868901&postcount=15).

It is not true that PhDs in general are idiot savants who can read Sanskrit but can't make change; some of them are truly brilliant at anything they decide to do, from astrodynamics to fixing cars. But the simple possession of a PhD, without more, is only a qualification in basic academic politics and library sitzfleisch. I've known several Harvard PhD's, they are not exempt.

As many of you are no doubt aware, Huff's How To Lie With Statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics) is the book you want, for starters anyway. The cited excerpt might make an interesting example of what Huff is talking about.

Something I ran into when I was in school was an article in a respected, peer-reviewed journal that statistically proved that Transcendental Meditation had been used to decrease the level of violence in the Middle East. I kid you not.

The interesting thing about the article was that one of the reviewers had gone public so as to point out that the statistical technique used to "prove" this was so complex and abstract, that it would be nearly impossible to tell a successful result from an artifact of the technique. He noted that the diagnostic routines for the technique in question would take up more pages than the article itself.

Like most other things, properly done statistics can be our friend, but they can just as easily be misused by the unscrupulous.

regards,

GR

MachIVshooter
August 31, 2008, 12:01 PM
It does not say that they are all members, but that the society still exists with members. The author is suggesting that it is just as silly to believe in the notion of the Flat Earth as it is that guns don't kill people. The author is NOT saying gun owners are members of the Flat Earth Society.

The Author has used his academic clout to infer that pro gun folks are ignorant and closed-minded just like those who still believe the earth is flat.

This "textbook", like many others, is a few hundred pages of op-ed masquerading as educational material.

xjchief
August 31, 2008, 12:30 PM
Now as a former teacher I can say this: "Those who can't do, teach."

While certainly not always the case, I found it to be true in many cases. I'm sure writing textbooks isn't exactly a highly paid and sought after job either.

fatelk
August 31, 2008, 12:53 PM
I learned a long time ago that "experts" are as human as the rest of us, and as such, they tend to believe whatever they choose to believe.

It's the rare individual who will logically research an issue and change their mind from a sincerely held belief, no matter how intelligent or educated they are.

A psychology professor in college made the statement that boys and girls are born mentally the same, and that it's only the influence of society that makes little boys like trucks and little girls like dolls. I was the only one in the class that challenged him on it, but in his mind he was right because he was the expert. Now, anyone with kids know this is patently ridiculous. As a result, I don't take something for gospel just because some "expert" says it.

I'm also inclined to believe that most college professors live in their own little made up world. They are god in their world; the keepers of all knowledge, with hundreds of worshipful, faithful little subjects bowing at their feet year after year, reinforcing in their own minds how omniscient and wonderful they are.

This explains to me why, as a whole, college professors tend to be the most radical left-wing nut jobs on the planet. Just being educated and intelligent doesn't mean you can't be willfully ignorant and stupid at the same time.:rolleyes:

TallPine
August 31, 2008, 01:13 PM
It's the rare individual who will logically research an issue and change their mind from a sincerely held belief, no matter how intelligent or educated they are.


I grudgingly went from being pro-drug-prohibition to being anti-War-on-Drugs. Of course, now that makes me a "pothead" in the eyes of all the lawn order types :rolleyes:

A psychology professor in college made the statement that boys and girls are born mentally the same, and that it's only the influence of society that makes little boys like trucks and little girls like dolls. I was the only one in the class that challenged him on it, but in his mind he was right because he was the expert. Now, anyone with kids know this is patently ridiculous.

When our girls were little, I could have bought them a toy dumptruck and they would wrap it up in blankets and cuddle it ;)

Double Naught Spy
August 31, 2008, 01:35 PM
The Author has used his academic clout to infer that pro gun folks are ignorant and closed-minded just like those who still believe the earth is flat.

Yes, that is pretty much what I said. ... along with the fact that the author did not say gun owners were Flat Earthers as claimed in the OP.

Old School
August 31, 2008, 02:11 PM
Schools and television can't reprogram us, but they will and are programming future generations.

divemedic
August 31, 2008, 02:12 PM
One could find a stat that says anything and then draw a silly conclusion.

For example, I could take two American cities with different crime rates, and show that one city has a higher crime rate AND a higher concentration of Irish redheads. Does that mean that Irish redheads committed the crimes?

Correlation does not equal causation.

Conqueror
August 31, 2008, 03:01 PM
It's bizarre for a textbook to editorialize like that. They should present the numbers and let the reader decide for themselves.

jonmerritt
August 31, 2008, 03:44 PM
They forgot to add, how many people were killed by cars, I'll bet it was many many more. Or accidental deaths by doctors, more than all there gun stats added together. So ban cars a doctors all together and mankinds survival rate will skyrocket! Untill someone falls off a cliff, then we will have to ban those. Ban pens, the military showed me how to kill with a pen in close combat. Ban politicians, we would all be safer.

bdickens
September 1, 2008, 11:28 AM
There is a great litle book out there entitled How to Lie With Statistics by Darrell Huff that should be required reading for every RKBA activist. This little book offers a succinct description of the many methods people with an agenda use to "cook the books" so to speak.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220278632&sr=1-1

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