Stock with a pistol grip? (NOT PGO!)


PDA






Roman2in
September 1, 2008, 02:09 AM
I have very little experience shooting long guns so need some advice from pros. Would it be a better idea to get regular buttstock, or the one that also has a pistol grip? Do you get any tactical advantage with an addition of a pistol grip? Does it compromise stock rigidity/strength? (in case the shotgun has to be used as a club)

Primary purpose is home defense and it will most likely be Remington 870.

Thanks in advance!

If you enjoyed reading about "Stock with a pistol grip? (NOT PGO!)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Titan6
September 1, 2008, 02:50 AM
Would it be a better idea to get regular buttstock, or the one that also has a pistol grip?

Which do you like to shoot better? If you don't know try to shot one of both and find out which one you like better.

Do you get any tactical advantage with an addition of a pistol grip?

I am not sure what you mean by tactical advantage.

Does it compromise stock rigidity/strength? (in case the shotgun has to be used as a club)

No, but if you are using it as a club something has gone really wrong.

dirty habit
September 1, 2008, 06:08 AM
Had a Franchi SAS12 with pistol grip and butt. Found it quite a bit easier on the shoulder to shoot, something to do with two points of recoil i suppose?
Quite awkward to shoot from the hip though!!

Dave McCracken
September 1, 2008, 09:44 AM
The standard stock has gone through 200 years of testing and modification. By and large, folks use it better than any of the boutique or psuedo military stuff.

Exceptions happen. Do try and shoot a PG equipped full stock and see how it feels. You'll probably be happier with the standard one though.

Regardless of the hardware, the crucial part is us. Shoot your shotgun plenty. Wear marks make a shotgun effective....

357wheelgunner
September 1, 2008, 10:01 AM
I got a Speedfeed IV stock with pistol grip and didn't like it. It was sold immediately.

Matt-J2
September 1, 2008, 12:31 PM
Depends. I tend to like pistol grip stocks on a lot of guns, but there's some I've held for shotguns which just felt wrong. Not all stocks, pistol gripped or otherwise, are designed the same.
Also, depends on the gun in question. On a Remington 870, yes. On a Mossberg 500, no. Safety location is the difference, here.


So, like others have said, try some out, even just handling in the store. Some stocks will jump out at you as not feeling good right away, so discard those choices and work from there.

PJR
September 1, 2008, 01:17 PM
Like most things the pistol grip full stock is something you should try and see if it's for you.

I was very interested in one until I tried it. After many tens of thousands of clay targets raising the standard stock to my face is second nature and the pistol grip stock felt alien and awkward. Yet for a friend of mine who is ex-military who learned on such stocks it's his perference. YMMV.

wildcatkit52
September 1, 2008, 02:08 PM
A Saiga 12 ga. conversion with a 10rd mag would do nicely.

http://tromix.com/images/Green18-800L.jpg

Roman2in
September 1, 2008, 05:10 PM
I am not sure what you mean by tactical advantage.
I was thinking, sometimes, if there's very little room to maneuver, you could use pistol grip to shoot of the hip, or put the stock above your shoulder (thus reducing the length of the gun that is in front of you.) Something of that nature...

if you are using it as a club something has gone really wrong

Well, I think if you have to use the gun at all, something has already gone really wrong. ;)

stiletto raggio
September 1, 2008, 09:57 PM
I currently use a professionally modified Saiga 12 as my go-to gun. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=25217 for pics and info.

There are several advantages to a quality folding/pistol grip setup. The buttstock adjustable for clothing or different users and foldable for compact storage. I have shot it with just the pistol grip, but I could only see doing that in a breaching situation.

The pistol grip itself allow for easier manipulation of the weapon with one hand, reduces felt recoil and increases controllability in rapid fire. A pistol-gripped smie auto can be fired with one hand (not extremely effective but possible if necessary) much easier than any other kind of shotgun. It is also easier to hold a shotgun in a retention position (butt wedged under the arm above waist level) and to actually keep hold of the weapon if someone graps the muzzle. Guns with conventional stocks don't stay in the low ready very comfortably, either.

Traditional stocks are designed for wingshooting. They are comfortable when the muzzle of the gun is raised above your head. Pistol-gripped firearms are significantly more comfortable if you are aiming at something eye-level or below. Even turkey guns these days are largely pistol-gripped, not because turkey hunters are Mall Ninjas, but because they got tired of their wrists being held in awkward positions for hours at a time.

The real answer is "whatever works for you," but I don't see any real-world advantage to the conventional stock besides being less scary to sheeple. I shot Skeet and Trap competitively in college so I understand the "muscle memory" argument, but thorough and continuous cross-training have made me comfortable with most common weapons platforms. Train, train, train.

MCgunner
September 1, 2008, 10:08 PM
Only thing I could see a PG for on a shotgun is on a turkey only shotgun. I HATE the way PGs handle (or don't) in the field. It just ain't natural. If I cared anything about tacticool SD shotguns, I still don't think I'd like a PG. I am much faster to the shoulder and on target with a normal stock. I'll shoot people like I shoot ducks. :D

oneounceload
September 1, 2008, 10:19 PM
A Saiga 12 ga. conversion with a 10rd mag would do nicely.



compared to what??..if you're going to do something like that. why not get an SKS or M-4 and have some 30 round magazines of 5.56 instead??

stiletto raggio
September 1, 2008, 10:21 PM
"I'll shoot people like I shoot ducks."

I suppose you would. Most people without the inclination toward practical defensive training would revert to the closest thing they know in a life or death situation. In your case, it would be duck hunting. My guess is if you went through a shotgun course with a PG shotgun, you would see the value and have the training to make it intuitive. You won't get a PG shotgun because of your personal tastes, so you will never get used to one or have an opportunity to experience the benefits first hand. Like a revolver guy who won't shoot autos, and M1A guy who refuses to try an AR, or a Smucker's guy who just won't open that jar of Nutella.

Dave McCracken
September 1, 2008, 10:48 PM
Raggio, a good hand with shotguns tends to be good with all shotguns.

The notorious Ljutic "Space Gun" was a single barrel trap gun with a PG, straight line stock and sighting plane elevated like M-16 sights. While not now in fashion, some of the records that it was used for are still standing.

And thumbhole stocks are seen on trap ranges daily across America.

Al Ljutic made a Semi auto variant of the Space Gun. There's one in the NRA museum.

I find the standard stock faster than the PG. I do have experience with PG stocked military style rifles. Of course, YMMV.

Anyone looking for a good shotgun setup should try both and see what works for them.

maroast
September 2, 2008, 12:42 AM
compared to what??..if you're going to do something like that. why not get an SKS or M-4 and have some 30 round magazines of 5.56 instead??

Because you can slap a 20 round drum on a Saiga-12....sure 20 is 10 less than 30......but then again you can have 20 rounds of 00 buckshot.....or 20 slugs. You pick. ;)

http://www.mdarms.com/ProdImages/S_20rd_lg.jpg

http://www.mdarms.com/ProdImages/md10.jpg

http://www.mdarms.com/ProdImages/md3.jpg

stiletto raggio
September 2, 2008, 01:17 AM
"Anyone looking for a good shotgun setup should try both and see what works for them."

Agreed. I just think that people's prejudices are more often based on what they've grown up or trained with. Some guys love the straight, English stocked doubles, but I never shot them that well. I just think that from a purely ergonomic, scientific standpoint the pistol grip has a lot going for it in everything except wingshooting.

Not to create a tangent, but I find trapshooters (the guys who only do trap, and do it religiously) to be a rather strange bunch. Release triggers, Ljutics and Seitz shotguns, funky pre-shoot rituals... some of these guys flip out at the thought of shooting a non-standard round.

blitzen
September 2, 2008, 04:11 AM
There's been a lot of good coments here so far but I thought I'd wade in anyways. I don't have any pictures of the various stock options and I've been out of the shotgunning games for a while so bare with me. The straight stock as seen on so many fine English doubles was said to be quick to the shoulder and very easy to cary. The side by side configuration was favored by upland game hunters. Then along came the clay target games and the over under with a pistol grip came into fasion. And ruled the roost. The single sighting plane provided for more precise pointing and the pistol grip provided for more control. (A Superposed skeet gun for example) Or most shotgun stocks as we see them. I hope you are following along. Now we have the tackticool 870s and Bennelli's with pistol grips similar to an AR or an AK and they are all the rage. I grew up shooting grouse and ducks with a field grade Browning Citori, then shooting trap, skeet and sporting clays with the same gun and very good results. Skip ahead 25 years and I bought a Bennelli M2 with a pistol grip. At 3 gun matches I smoke everyone in the shotgun stage but I can't say it's because of the pistol grip. It feels awkward and unnatural. I thing I would do as well with a tricked out Browning Gold. I think the moral of the story is that you can shoot anything you wish to shoot well if you shoot it a lot. I shouldn't have finshed 3rd in the Badger State Games with a field grade Citori many years ago but I did. If you look at the best sporting clays shooters and what they are shooting you will find your answer. If an AR/AK style pistol grip would help them hit multipal targets at any given range in .002 seconds they would be using it, BUT THEY ARE NOT.

Roman2in
September 2, 2008, 12:02 PM
Thanks alot for replies guys! There are a lot of good answers here.

rbernie
September 2, 2008, 12:50 PM
Because you can slap a 20 round drum on a Saiga-12....sure 20 is 10 less than 30......but then again you can have 20 rounds of 00 buckshot.....or 20 slugs. You pick. Do you have any idea how much these things WEIGH? A big ol' drum of slugs sounds cool on paper, but handles like a pig in reality.

kingjoey
September 2, 2008, 01:12 PM
I personally like the Speedfeed stocks as far as PG stocks go. On my HD Mossberg I have a Butler Creek protector which is a folding PG stock. I don't shoot it as a PGO setup, but the folder allows the gun to fit in small compartments. Avoid the ATI stocks like a sorority girl with a suspicious rash

elChupacabra!
September 2, 2008, 01:20 PM
My first firearm was an 870 with a Speedfeed IV PG stock. I needed cash and sold it, later to replace it with a Benelli Nova Special Purpose. The Nova has a one-piece stock / receiver, so it has a traditional stock which can't be replaced (to my knowledge).

Comparing the two, I will say that I can't open doors one-handed as easily with the Nova as I could with the 870. The pistol grip made one-handed operation much easier and more comfortable, for sure.

On the other hand, I did find a few things awkward about the PG setup - I couldn't do a butt-stroke at all with it. I know I probably never would, but it just wasn't possible. Take that for what it's worth, as I admit it's probably not worth much :)

Another thing I haven't heard anybody else mention is the negative effect of recoil on a PG stock - although that PG did help take some recoil off the shoulder, it, unfortunately, transferred a good bit of it it to my wrist / thumb, which I quickly found uncomfortable. My shoulder is much stronger than my hand, and I'd rather have the recoil go straight there. In that regard, I really prefer the conventional stock.

I guess it is a personal preference issue... but with that being said, for a 12ga shotgun, I don't miss the PG stock, and am very happy with the Nova's conventional stock.

Now on a fighting rifle like an AR, I think the pistol grip is tops.

Cohibra45
September 2, 2008, 01:40 PM
With everyone else chiming in, I thought I would give my .02 worth.

First and foremost, shoot and then shoot some more. I say that with all the other things out there, shooting is practice and you can't get enough of that. The best shotgunners out there shoot a lot!!!

I grew up in rural NC and have been hunting since I was 14...a long time ago!!! I shot single shots and pumps, then moved to doubles and eventually an auto. Almost everyday after school, the first thing I did when I got home was to pick up my gun and go outside in the woods and fields. Every Saturday, my friend and I took his beagles out and did the run and gun on rabbits. We were young and never wanted to wait for the rabbit to make the full circle. I hunted everything that was in season and the rest of the year, I hunted varmints and predators.

Doing all that shooting and hunting, I surprised my good friend when years later, he took me to his local trap shooting club. I told him that I use to hunt and shoot a lot but it had been 15 years since I shot much. That first time on the 16yd line, I broke 24 of 25. I did that regularly. Every once in a while, I would run the clays. I was using my newly purchased 870 police with a 26" vent rib barrel. Everyone else had their 'Trap' guns, Perazzi's, Benelli's, Browning's, etc. and they just nodded their heads and smiled. I guess what I am trying to say, go ahead and get what you want, but get into shooting a lot. You might find that it really doesn't matter that much which kind of grip you shoot. The only way to get any good with any gun is to practice. You might as well bust some clays for that instant gratification. There are many ways to enjoy that to. When I was growing up, there was only Skeet and Trap. Now there is Sporting Clays and 5 Stand. These simulate hunting more in my book than either of the other two, but, I still enjoy shooting Trap.

One other thing when shooting clays...remember, you are really only competing against yourself. Don't fall into the trap of getting competitive with others. Your concentration will suffer along with your score. You can have more fun by getting better and beating them eventually!!!:D:D

Then after shooting alot, you will figure out what kind of grip you like and are good with. ;)

Cohibra45

Titus
September 2, 2008, 01:55 PM
As elChupacabra points out, there may be some advantage for one handed operation. I knew a gentleman who only had the use of one arm that used a pistol grip stocked gun, though it was also a semi-auto rather than a pump. Beyond that, it's probably just preference.

john917v
September 2, 2008, 02:31 PM
Roman, I held a Mossberg 500 that belonged to a cop one day. It was pistol grip, and it had a full stock. It had a security barrel, it was the nicest-feeling shotgun I've ever held, and I've held a few.

DougW
September 2, 2008, 02:35 PM
My Benelli M1Super90 has the factory pistol grip buttstock it came with. I also have a straight butt stock for it, but I prefer the origional. My Remington 1100, 870, S&W 1000, and Maverick 88 have the straight stocks. I use the Benelli for 3 gun match's, and the rest for hunting/HD. Each has it's positive and negatives.

Dave McCracken
September 2, 2008, 10:34 PM
Raggio, trapshooting is like Benchrest rifle, it attracts certain personality types. Some of those folks are quite rigid.

Others, like the Geezer Squad, are more flexible. If one showed up with a tricked Saiga with belt feed, they'd line up to try it out.

stiletto raggio
September 3, 2008, 02:18 PM
Not to hijack the thread, but video of the Geezer squad can be seen here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=382509

And this is a picture of the beloved Dave McCracken: http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=79609&d=1212928695

I don't know about you guys, but I am guessing that the "flexibility" of the Geezer Squad is more in their attitudes and gun-handling skill than in their joints.

556A2
September 3, 2008, 04:27 PM
I personally like Pistol-Gripped Stocks because it allows easier manipulation with 1 hand, and it puts your firing hand in a more natural position. That being said, the only pistol-gripped stocks that is worth the money for a shotgun are the Speedfeed IV/IV-S IMO.

I currently have a 12" LOP Hogue stock with a Limbsaver slip-on pad on my "go-to" 870, and I am thinking about switching back to a Speedfeed IV-S.

Dave McCracken
September 3, 2008, 10:20 PM
Right you are, Raggio. Stiff joints, not attitudes.

Right now,the only joint not giving trouble is my left hip. All titanium....

If you enjoyed reading about "Stock with a pistol grip? (NOT PGO!)" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!