End to the UPS excessive shipping charges...


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4xfourfun
September 1, 2008, 11:35 AM
First off, I wanted to say thanks again for all the comments and views towards my previous post regarding the UPS shipping charges($120!) the seller wanted me to reimburse him for. I came into it on the side that we agreed to a shipping price and that is where I would stay.

A couple of you gave me the idea that if I was really happy with the purchase maybe I should send a little more money his way. This idea really got me thinking.....and I soon decided I might go this option.

I picked up my new Colt Anaconda over the weekend. While it is a very nice firearm, I would have to say it was not described the best. It has several finish blemishes that were not mentioned. While none of them are major, to me the all ad up.

As closing, I am going to send him an e-mail to tell him the blemishes I question to see if he even responds. I expect nothing will be done. I will also let him know that the agreed upon $50 shipping that I already paid is all he will get, as I am not happy enough with the gun to put more towards it.

Thanks!

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Gator
September 1, 2008, 01:29 PM
Tell him you want to return it for a full refund, plus return shipping, and wait for his head to explode. :evil:

Soybomb
September 1, 2008, 02:20 PM
Makes me think he's even more of a dishonest seller trying to milk you for extra $. Sorry your deal didn't work out better for you.

Jim Watson
September 1, 2008, 03:15 PM
I don't think I have ever seen a second hand mailorder gun equal to the advertising.
Pig in a poke is the kindest description.

Dookie
September 1, 2008, 03:30 PM
It's UPS policy to over night handguns, not the law. I ship a lot of "machine" parts.

Dgreno
September 1, 2008, 03:55 PM
^^Thats what I do...

ilcylic
September 1, 2008, 05:24 PM
Dookie: Are you not legally (i.e. Federally) required to declare firearms when surrendering them to an interstate shipper? Or is that just "HazMat" stuff?

RaspberrySurprise
September 1, 2008, 05:30 PM
Yes, yes, you are very much required to inform the shipper that you are shipping a firearm. Failure to do so is likely a felony.

Dgreno
September 1, 2008, 06:01 PM
I had to ship a gun to the manufacturer one time. The manufacturer told me to claim it as "machined steel parts" when I shipped it through UPS. The rep I spoke to also assured me that it was legal. I hope she was right...

RaspberrySurprise
September 1, 2008, 08:50 PM
18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

Sec. 178.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part: Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.

(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.

Chihuahua Floyd
September 1, 2008, 09:30 PM
Raspberry,
I think the key words in the about are "any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector" and since we can only ship ffl to ffl or direct to the factory, we are dealing with the above. The way I read this it would be perfectly legal to ship as "Machined Parts" if you are shipping to the importer or manufacturer.
I see no problem and don't thinkit makes any of the above felons.

Now, if you ship direct to your brother in another state without declaring what is in there, that's another story.
CF

Quoheleth
September 1, 2008, 09:34 PM
I had to ship a gun to the manufacturer one time. The manufacturer told me to claim it as "machined steel parts" when I shipped it through UPS. The rep I spoke to also assured me that it was legal. I hope she was right...

You are able to legally send via UPS or FEDEX to the manufacturer w/out any problems. Declare it a firearm boldly - it's A-OK.

I understand (IANAL) that you can send intra-state (within state) without a problem.

However, sending interstate (differing states) is another thing. That's a HUGE no-no!!!

Q

RaspberrySurprise
September 1, 2008, 10:14 PM
At the very least you better hope it doesn't get lost or damaged. I'm sure they'd laugh at your insurance claim.

4xfourfun
September 1, 2008, 10:27 PM
Here it is, straight from the horses mouth (UPS website):


Shipping Firearms

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms


Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
UPS accepts packages containing firearms, as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code, for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code, law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States) and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), and from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient and package.

Handguns, as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921,will be accepted for transportation only via UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services. (Note: UPS Express CriticalSM Service is not available for firearms).
UPS accepts firearm parts for shipment, provided the part is not a "firearm" as defined under federal law; the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm; and the package otherwise complies with federal, state, and local law. (Note: Receivers or frames of a firearm, firearm mufflers and silencers are considered "firearms" and are accepted for transportation only if shipped in accordance with UPS's requirements for shipping firearms.)
UPS does not accept automatic weapons, including machine guns, for shipment.
Firearms, including handguns, and firearm parts are not accepted for shipment internationally
Ammunition may be accepted for shipment internationally provided it is shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping International Goods.
UPS ReturnsSM Services are not available for packages containing firearms.


Follow These Packing Requirements
Packages containing handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS.
Ammunition cannot be included in packages that contain firearms (including handguns). Ammunition must be shipped in accordance with the UPS Guide for Shipping Ground and Air Hazardous Materials, or the UPS Guide for Shipping International Dangerous Goods.
Small arms ammunition, as defined in 49 C.F.R. § 173.59, will be transported only when packaged and labeled in compliance with 49 C.F.R. § 172 regarding hazardous materials shipments.


About Documentation and Labeling
The shipper must use Delivery Confirmation Adult Signature Required service for each package containing a firearm, including a handgun, and affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery.


Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
You can only ship your package that contains a handgun from UPS daily pickup accounts or through UPS Customer Centers (counters at UPS operational facilities). Note: Handguns are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or UPS On-Call PickupSM, or at The UPS Store® or any third party retailer.
When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk.
You can ship a firearm (excluding handguns), from a UPS daily pickup account, UPS On-Call Pickup, One-Time Pickup, or a UPS Customer Center. Note: Firearms are not accepted for shipment through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS Drop Boxes, or at The UPS Store or any third party retailer.
See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for information regarding firearm shipments.


Theres a lot on the BATF website too but I didn't have anough room to copy and paste it!

meef
September 1, 2008, 10:49 PM
It's UPS policy to over night handguns, not the law. I ship a lot of "machine" parts.I have a neighbor who wants you to say hello to Bubba for him, if you get the opportunity.

You're certainly increasing your odds and likelihood.

:cool:

wuchak
September 1, 2008, 11:04 PM
You don't have to tell them what's in the box but if they lose it you'll have a harder time with the claim. If you don't tell them you can ship it at regular rates. The last couple of times I shipped with Fed-Ex and declared that I was shipping a handgun they shipped it two day. When I inquired about the overnight policy they both told me that two day was all Fed-Ex requires. I know that's not true but it made shipping less than $35 so I didn't argue. Interestingly when I added $600 insurance the price of shipping dropped by a few bucks.

akodo
September 1, 2008, 11:17 PM
UPS has it's regulations. Regulations of a private business are not law.

As long as you are sending to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, it seems you are in compliance.

is there another law to worry about?

Aslo, regarding written notice. Could you send a letter (certified) to the head office stating your full name and intent to send a firearm, and then go to your local branch and send it?

That would count as written notice, yes?

orionengnr
September 2, 2008, 12:09 AM
...and here we go again...

4xfourfun
September 2, 2008, 12:17 AM
This is just like watching my dog chash his tail, the amusement never ends ;)


Update: He has yet to respond to my e-mail. Go figure, I guess he will stop bothering me about the extra shipping charges since I pointed out some defects he forgot to mention. I'm still excited to get that bad boy to the range in the morning when I get off :evil:

ar10
September 2, 2008, 12:28 AM
the contents of the package cannot be assembled to form a firearm

So why not send different packages :confused:

A piece of metal with a hole thru it, paperclip, and spring can be assembled to make a .22 zip gun. :what:

CDignition
September 2, 2008, 01:02 AM
Mail is only 25 bux.. if the guy is a dealer, he just screwed you for nothing. Any dealer not using mail is a moron.

chris in va
September 2, 2008, 01:03 AM
Jeez Louise. I was told by a gun manufacturer a long gun could be shipped 'normally', but a handgun had to go overnight.

kevindsingleton
September 2, 2008, 11:00 AM
Wouldn't you think UPS and FedEx would realize that the "machine parts" you're shipping to Springfield Armory and Smith & Wesson are guns? ;)

220_Swift
September 2, 2008, 11:09 AM
Wouldn't you think UPS and FedEx would realize that the "machine parts" you're shipping to Springfield Armory and Smith & Wesson are guns?

The people at UPS are not that bright. They usually don't know there own companies policies on shipping. FedEx is usually another matter.


My two cents, for what it's worth. I always notify the shipper of the correct contents of my package. It simply is not worth the hassle if something goes wrong.

Don't Tread On Me
September 2, 2008, 12:36 PM
LOL @ idiots who think they're outsmarting the "system" by not declaring a firearm to the carrier.


How dumb. What happens when UPS loses the package? First of all, a firearm is now lost/stolen and you have no proof of it. Reporting it, which is the right thing to do - is to admit to a felony. UPS may or may not discover they are shipping a firearm. Sometimes they do. They do scan some packages. If it is not labeled a firearm, they may report it to the BATFE. If a firearm is damaged, you cannot make an insurance claim.


A very irresponsible thing one can do.


As for the TOPIC of this thread....

If the seller and buyer agree to a price - that's the price. It's up to the buyer if he or she would choose to work with the seller on unexpected expenses. If the seller wants to keep the deal - in my opinion, they cannot demand the buyer add money or change the deal. However, the seller is in their right to end the deal and refund the money. Holding the money and demanding more is unacceptable. I believe that to be a fair way to deal with things.


I can't fault many seller's for this these days. For years, shipping has been $25-$35. If a person has not shipped out a firearm, particularly a handgun, in a few years and is going by typical shipping prices or is looking at the prices dealers charge to ship (they can use USPS)...it is very misleading. Then they find out that shipping is going to be $70 or more.


FedEX and UPS require overnight, with adult signatures and all of that. Fuel costs and whatnot. Prices have gone up. I shipped a firearm to Illinois from Florida, it ran $77. Painful.

Bottom line, sellers need to research their shipping costs and factor that into the price to get the dollar amount they want out of a sale. Buyers should also be aware of this and ask the seller about the details of the deal so they don't end up being aggravated or having their time wasted. Usually, when something is too good to be true or a smoking deal, there's a reason why. If that reason is because the seller doesn't realize they are about to get hurt on a deal - there is a high probability they are going to back out or want to change the terms.

brickeyee
September 2, 2008, 12:57 PM
Reporting it, which is the right thing to do - is to admit to a felony.

Why don't you find the federal statute that makes it a requirement and post it.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr/index.html

Soybomb
September 2, 2008, 01:32 PM
Reporting it, which is the right thing to do - is to admit to a felony.
What law would they be charged under? The relevant law has been posted in this thread and clearly shows that his actions are legal.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

and for further reading
http://cyber-byte.com/photos/atf.jpg

4xfourfun
September 4, 2008, 09:43 AM
Several days later, no response from seller. I guess in a way, I got my answer!

scrat
September 4, 2008, 01:48 PM
good deal 4xfourfun

Norinco982lover
September 4, 2008, 04:54 PM
Glad you are satisfied with your purchase:D

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