Antique rifle sale--buyer's ID expired


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Danus ex
September 2, 2008, 09:03 PM
I sold an antique rifle and recently received payment and a copy of a buyer's driver's license. The fly in the ointment is that the license expired in 1999. The URL at the bottom of the paper the license is printed on points to an AOL webmail attachment, presumably a scan of this license, printed on 8/27/08.

At the least, I intend to ask for an updated ID. Any other precautions I should take?

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VARifleman
September 2, 2008, 09:05 PM
what do you mean antique? pre-1898? or just old?

Treo
September 2, 2008, 09:06 PM
Are you required to get an I.D. at all? Is the buyer in the Military?

scrat
September 2, 2008, 09:10 PM
next question you sending it to and ffl. unless its black powder it has to be sent to an ffl. in which case the ffl has to verify the license too. So if you have funds and are sending it to an ffl. your job is done. Now remember antique or not if it shoots cartridges it needs to be sent to an ffl. if its a muzzle loader taking black powder it maybe able to be shipped to place of resident depending on the state. Some states do not allow this.

kingpin008
September 2, 2008, 09:12 PM
next question you sending it to and ffl. unless its black powder it has to be sent to an ffl.

Not if the buyer is in the same state, or the rifle is on the C&R list.

Danus ex
September 2, 2008, 09:17 PM
what do you mean antique? pre-1898? or just old?

Antique as in Finnish Mosin-Nagant on an 1896 receiver.

Are you required to get an I.D. at all? Is the buyer in the Military?

1. Yes.

2. No, not to my knowledge.

AntiqueCollector
September 2, 2008, 09:56 PM
next question you sending it to and ffl. unless its black powder it has to be sent to an ffl. in which case the ffl has to verify the license too. So if you have funds and are sending it to an ffl. your job is done. Now remember antique or not if it shoots cartridges it needs to be sent to an ffl. if its a muzzle loader taking black powder it maybe able to be shipped to place of resident depending on the state. Some states do not allow this.

Wrong, any gun made before 1899 (so 1898 and before) is legally antique, whether it's cartridge or muzzleloading. The only exception is with the NFA (machine guns).

Under federal law they aren't firearms so no FFL or even proof of age is needed. Some states may require proof of age or even to go through an FFL but generally speaking no FFL needed. As for expired ID...same person, I wouldn't worry about it. Having expiring licenses or ID's is mainly to make money for the state. Now perhaps having an expired ID means the guy just got out of jail but that's not terribly likely, and there's no federal law barring any criminal, even felons, from owning antiques...

scrat
September 2, 2008, 09:59 PM
umm man i was wrong.

Treo
September 2, 2008, 10:01 PM
If the buyer is active duty Military his/her state may extend the expiration date of his license until he/ she ETSes.

Other than that I'd wonder why they let the license lapse for 10 years too

bigjohnson
September 2, 2008, 10:05 PM
SCRAT... Where on earth did you come up with that info? Interstate transactions involving firearms are regulated by the Gun Control Act of 1968, WHICH SPECIFICALLY EXEMPTS ALL FIREARMS (except machineguns) MADE ON OR BEFORE DECEMBER 31, 1898.

It doesn't matter whether or not the guns use fixed ammunition or have a percussion cap, flintlock, or other type of ignition system. If they are manufactured in or before 1898, they are exempt from federal regulations.

I have a letter from the ATF Firearms Technology branch that clearly states this. When I wrote to them, I specifically asked if cartridge firearms using conventional rimfire and centerfire ammunition were exempt from regulation if the firearm was made prior to 1899, and the answer I got was that they are indeed exempt under federal law.

Your state law may be different, but federal law is very clear. All firearms, except machineguns, made on or before 12/31/1898 are considered antiques, and are exempt from federal regulation under the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Aguila Blanca
September 2, 2008, 10:05 PM
How old does the license indicate he is? Maybe he voluntarily quit driving due to age, or a medical condition. My grandfather stopped driving at 80 when he felt his reflexes weren't good enough anymore. (He was wrong - right up to the time he quit driving he was better and safer than 90% of the other drivers on the road ... but I digress.)

Expired or not -- it's a state-issued ID, presumeably in the name he gave you. What difference does the expiration make? A driver's license doesn't have to be current for me to be me. Only if "me" wants to legally operate a motor vehicle on a public road.

Danus ex
September 2, 2008, 10:47 PM
OK. I've got an action plan. If his cashier's check clears, all is probably well, anyway. Thanks guys.

Chester32141
September 2, 2008, 10:51 PM
Here in Florida some licenses were extended about 10 years by means of a sticker to be placed on the back. On first glance (front) my license looks to have expired about 1999 ...

Chester

http://banners.wunderground.com/banner/gizmotimetemp_both/language/www/US/FL/New_Smyrna_Beach.gif

Danus ex
September 2, 2008, 11:06 PM
Thanks Chester. It is a Florida license.

Aran
September 3, 2008, 12:11 AM
What difference does the expiration make? A driver's license doesn't have to be current for me to be me. Only if "me" wants to legally operate a motor vehicle on a public road.

Good luck buying alcohol in a lot of places if you don't look ~40 or whatever the local requirement is, if your ID isn't valid.

Rmac58
September 3, 2008, 06:13 AM
I went to purchase a hand gun, I provided my license, I had just renewed it. The state of Va. requires you to have 30 days on said license. I was able to get to the DMV and get a transcript tho, just an hour of time, and $8.00.
I was told an expired license will not work. This info is from my local FFL dealer.

FieroCDSP
September 3, 2008, 06:26 AM
For reference, the 4473 requires a valid photo ID. An expired license is not considered valid. While that info is not transmitted to NICS, it's on the paper. I had to turn someone down because of that- They were ticked.

If the Mosin in question is actually a pre-century, wow.... Hope you're getting a pretty penny.

EOD Guy
September 3, 2008, 11:10 AM
Your state law may be different, but federal law is very clear. All firearms, except machineguns, made on or before 12/31/1898 are considered antiques, and are exempt from federal regulation under the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Not quite! The National Firearms Act has a different definition of antique firearm than the Gun Control Act of 1968. The NFA definition excludes firearms using fixed cartridges from the antique firearm definition. This includes not only machine guns, but all firearms regulated under the NFA such as short barrelled rifles and shotguns.

There are some firearms that have been removed from the NFA and redefined as C&R under the Gun Control Act. They can be found in Section III of the Firearms Curio or Relics List.

There have also been firearms removed from the NFA and reclassed as antiques and not subject to the provisions of the GCA. They can be found in Section IIIA of the C&R list.

I have not found any machine guns that have been removed from the NFA and reclassed, so it appears that all machine guns, regardless of date of manufacture, are still regulated under the NFA. Machine guns have never been regulated under the GCA.

EOD Guy
September 3, 2008, 11:16 AM
For reference, the 4473 requires a valid photo ID. An expired license is not considered valid. While that info is not transmitted to NICS, it's on the paper. I had to turn someone down because of that- They were ticked. +

If you want to see someone ticked, tell a military member that their military ID card is not a valid ID. I don't know about other states, but in California, a valid photo ID must also have a physical description of the individual. Current military ID cards do not have this information visible on the card.

stampsm
September 3, 2008, 09:25 PM
here in nevada i purchased a Mosin-Nagant with a 1895 receiver and it was shipped right to my door from out of state. there are no federal requirements for id it just helps to avoid issues with state laws. basically you want to verify they are over 18 so you dont have issues with selling to a minor and their parents getting upset. an antique Mosin-Nagant can get a premium of about 200-250 or more due to it's antique status. it is still one of the cheapest antique guns with commonly available ammo. here in nevada the front also have an expiration date but they can get an extension through the mail so they dont have to go to the dmv and it is a sticker on the back of the license.

bigjohnson
September 4, 2008, 12:09 AM
EOD Guy: You stated: "Machine guns have never been regulated under the GCA".

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but NFA weapons are still considered "firearms" under the provision of the GCA '68. For example, if you want to buy a "replica" Sten gun, made in 1970 from original parts with a newly-manufactured receiver, and the gun is currently owned by a dealer NOT in your home state, you can't do it. The gun will have to be transferred to a Class III dealer in your home state, and then you can buy it from that dealer. This is in conformance with provisions of the GCA, not the NFA. Similarly, if the gun is an all-original WW2 Sten gun, it is a "Curio or Relic" firearm, a designation that is defined ONLY in the GCA '68, not in the NFA, and can be purchased by a C&R license holder in any state where it is legal.

So machine guns ARE regulated under the GCA.

EOD Guy
September 4, 2008, 10:23 AM
EOD Guy: You stated: "Machine guns have never been regulated under the GCA".

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but NFA weapons are still considered "firearms" under the provision of the GCA '68. For example, if you want to buy a "replica" Sten gun, made in 1970 from original parts with a newly-manufactured receiver, and the gun is currently owned by a dealer NOT in your home state, you can't do it. The gun will have to be transferred to a Class III dealer in your home state, and then you can buy it from that dealer. This is in conformance with provisions of the GCA, not the NFA. Similarly, if the gun is an all-original WW2 Sten gun, it is a "Curio or Relic" firearm, a designation that is defined ONLY in the GCA '68, not in the NFA, and can be purchased by a C&R license holder in any state where it is legal.

So machine guns ARE regulated under the GCA.

OK, you got me :o and I'll admit I made too broad a statement and that there is a certain amont of overlap concerning interstate transfers. The C&R status has nothing to do with the fact that a firearm is an NFA firearm but the C&R status is determined by the definition in GCA 68. However, even with C&R machine guns, the provisions of the NFA still have to be complied with.

How about the following statement: "Machine guns are regulated by the NFA but there is an overlap with the GCA concerning C&R status and interstate transfers." :)

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