Shooting in Alger, WA (north of Seattle) [merged threads]


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FourTeeFive
September 3, 2008, 12:08 AM
This is a pretty sleepy part of WA state.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080903/ap_on_re_us/shooting_rampage

See updated text in message #15.

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Hook686
September 3, 2008, 12:49 AM
I just read this at:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080903/ap_on_re_us/shooting_rampage

6 dead, 2 wounded in Wash. state shooting spree 6 minutes ago



ALGER, Wash. - A shooting rampage Tuesday afternoon in northwest Washington has left six people dead, including a sheriff's deputy, the State Patrol said. A suspect in the shootings has surrendered.

ADVERTISEMENT

Two people were wounded during the violence in Skagit County, including a state trooper who reportedly was grazed in the arm by a bullet.

A man was arrested after turning himself in at the Skagit County sheriff's office in Mount Vernon, Trooper Keith Leary said. The man was not immediately identified but Leary said he is known to authorities as "someone with a mental illness."

The dead were found at multiple crime scenes. They included the deputy shot while responding to a call and a second person killed at the same location near the small town of Alger; two construction workers found shot nearby, and a third body found a few houses away, Leary said. Authorities were investigating any connection among those sites

A motorist was shot and killed on Interstate 5 as the suspect fled south.

The wounded included a motorcyclist who was shot in the arm at a Shell gas station in Alger and the trooper hit as the suspect raced along I-5.

After the shootings in the Alger area, the armed man raced south on Interstate 5 at speeds in excess of 90 mph, with troopers, sheriff's deputies and Mount Vernon police in pursuit, Leary said.

The civilian motorist was shot and killed and the unidentified trooper was grazed by a bullet along I-5 near a rest stop, Leary said. The trooper was treated for non-life-threatening injuries.

The victims were not immediately identified.

The first shootings were reported shortly after 2 p.m. Tuesday and the suspect was in custody by about 4:30 p.m.

State Patrol troopers temporarily closed all southbound lanes of I-5 north of Burlington for a period Tuesday evening, backing up traffic for miles, as they investigated that crime scene.


It seems to me all the logic, rationalization, training, teaching, pleading, praying, ... can never avoid this type situation. As long as people are involved, s**t will happen.

Not good for the R2K crowd I'm thinking, for it seems to me this type situation leads easily to, 'It is the gun that caused these deaths', mentality.

stampsm
September 3, 2008, 12:55 AM
The man was not immediately identified but Leary said he is known to authorities as "someone with a mental illness."
well in most states this would already preclude him from legally owning firearms, so in effect this is someone who illegally possessed firearms and used them to commit a crime.

p2000sk
September 3, 2008, 12:55 AM
Want to stop internet terrorism?
Stop participating in it. - Someone Else

So, how about those ammo prices?

Mortech
September 3, 2008, 12:57 AM
Actually the guy was on a 'watch list' so he obviously didn't just walk in a store and purchase a weapon in this state . An event like this will have no impact on the states gun laws , pretty much after the Tacoma mall shootings a lot of libs saw the light .

B yond
September 3, 2008, 12:59 AM
Lets just make it illegal to murder people. That will surely prevent this from happening again.

10 Ring Tao
September 3, 2008, 01:15 AM
Lets just make it illegal to murder people. That will surely prevent this from happening again.

Yeah!! Write new laws to ban murder!! Imagine how happy and peaceful society will be!

















oh...dammit...never mind

Duke Junior
September 3, 2008, 01:20 AM
Yeah!! Write new laws to ban murder!! Imagine how happy and peaceful society will be!

This sounds like the best idea yet.

Treo
September 3, 2008, 01:34 AM
I think instances like this do nothing but good for RKBA after the New Life Church shooting there was a spike in CHP applications. I think the non gun owning public is begining to realize that A) It's usually all over before the cops show up. And B) The bad guys are going to have guns irrespective of the law.

As more people realize this more will buy guns & start to take responsiblity for their own safety.

Treo Out.

TRGRHPY
September 3, 2008, 01:43 AM
Most anti's don't understand that even if you take the guns out of the equation, mass killings can still happen. It happens from bombs practically every day in the middle-east. Box-cutters killed over 3,000 on 9-11-01. Timothy McVeigh. Most serial killers. The list can go on and on...and so can the argument.

Some research that I did about a year ago for a paper showed that violent crime rates across the country were about the same, but where gun crimes were lower, other methods of violence were higher (knives, blunt objects, etc.)...whereas they were comparitively less in areas where gun crimes were higher. This was taken from the UCR by region. So the method changes, but the violence stays the same, so how about enforcing laws instead of trying to ban every conceivable item that can be used as a weapon? Or does that just make too much sense?

There was an automobile collision last night where some guy ran a red light and t-boned a family in an suv....perhaps we should ban red lights...

KC0QGL
September 3, 2008, 01:54 AM
And people wonder why I carry a gun!!!

Sackett
September 3, 2008, 02:39 AM
Yeah...It's all about perspective. I read that story thinking, "This is such a great argument for more responsible people to carry. Too bad I'm in CA...".

Someone's sig line (I'm sorry I don't recall who or I would give credit) says something to the effect of: 'Did you ever notice that those mass shootings never happen at NRA meetings?'. Seems fitting here.

The more our society disarms in the name of safety, the more this sort of thing will happen. I'm wondering how much worse it needs to get before there is a 'Mass Awakening'.

makarovnik
September 3, 2008, 03:21 AM
I live pretty close. Bummer. The guy was known to be mentally ill. My prayers go out to the families.

riceboy72
September 3, 2008, 03:27 AM
I'm in shock over this, too. Originally it had been reported that a Skagit County Deputy Sheriff was killed, and a WSP Tropper has been shot and injured. This has now obviously grown to a proportion that borders on unbelievable and unimaginable.

My thoughts and prayers to those who were victims of this very unfortunate tragedy. It leaves me speechless.

FourTeeFive
September 3, 2008, 03:27 AM
Updated text:

6 dead, 2 wounded in Wash. state shooting spree

By MANUEL VALDES, Associated Press Writer 21 minutes ago

ALGER, Wash. - A terrifying shooting spree that stretched from a small northwest Washington town onto the state's busiest highway left six people dead and at least two more wounded on Tuesday.

The dead included a Skagit County sheriff's deputy and the wounded included a Washington State Patrol trooper who was shot while trying to catch the shooter on Interstate 5, the State Patrol said. A suspect in the shootings, a recently released convict with a history of mental illness, has surrendered.

State Department of Corrections officials identified the man as Isaac Zamora, 28, who had served a six-month Skagit County jail sentence for drug possession. Zamora was released Aug. 6 and was under community supervision by Corrections officers, spokesman Chad Lewis said.

State Corrections Secretary Eldon Vail said Zamora had reported as instructed and passed tests for drug and alcohol use. "I want to extend our profound sorrow and heartfelt sympathy for the victims of the shootings in Skagit County," Vail said in a statement.

Gov. Chris Gregoire called for an independent third-party review to be led by the head of the Washington Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs and a prosecutor to be appointed by the Washington Association of Prosecuting Attorneys.

"I will be directing them to look into how this case was handled and provide an initial report to me within 10 days," Gregoire said late Tuesday night.

She asked for a thorough review of the man's files.

Zamora's mother said she had tried repeatedly to get help for her son, whom she described as "desperately mentally ill."

"We're so devastated for the families," Dennise Zamora told The Associated Press by telephone. "I wish it would have been him or me that was killed. That's how deeply I feel about it."

The slain deputy was identified as Anne Jackson, 40, whom Mrs. Zamora described as a sympathetic figure who had tried to help the family in the past.

"She was very gracious," Dennise Zamora said. "She knew exactly what we were going through, said her brother was going through some similar stuff."

The wounded trooper, grazed on the arm by a bullet, drove himself to a nearby hospital for treatment and was later released. He was identified as Trooper Troy Giddings.

The other victims were not immediately identified.

The dead were found at multiple crime scenes. They included the deputy shot while responding to a call and a second person killed at the same location near the small town of Alger; two construction workers found shot nearby, and a third body found a few houses away, Trooper Keith Leary said. He added that authorities were investigating any connection among those sites.

A motorist was shot and killed on Interstate 5 as the suspect fled south.

The wounded included a motorcyclist who was shot in the arm at a Shell gas station in Alger and the state trooper hit as the suspect raced along I-5.

After the shootings in the Alger area, the armed man raced south on Interstate 5 at speeds in excess of 90 mph, with troopers, sheriff's deputies and Mount Vernon police in pursuit, Leary said.

The civilian motorist was shot and killed and the trooper was grazed by a bullet along I-5 near a rest stop, Leary said.

The first shootings were reported shortly after 2 p.m. Tuesday and the suspect was in custody by about 4:30 p.m.

State Patrol troopers temporarily closed all southbound lanes of I-5 north of Burlington for a period Tuesday evening, backing up traffic for miles, as they investigated that crime scene.

"There are a lot of answers that are just not available right now," Everett police Sgt. Robert Goetz told a news conference late Tuesday night.

Old Dog
September 3, 2008, 03:58 AM
This story was already posted, some 40 minutes earlier than when the OP started this thread ...

See:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=390062

And no, this is NOT why the public won't support those who wish to keep and bear firearms.

The alleged killer, a person with known mental illness, is a convicted felon, still under DOC supervision. He is barred by law from buying or keeping firearms.

BruceRDucer
September 3, 2008, 08:20 AM
/


It's worth mentioning, that if the same kind of "mentally ill" person, decided to ram his car into others, or attack people with a club or pipe, or commit arson in a crowded theater......would you say that the problem was solved by banning CARS, PIPES, LIGHTER FLUID etc?

At least regarding firearms, many citizens can also legally arm themselves, and protect themselves.

That RANDOMNESS factor in life, the unexpected and non-rational acts of violence, nobody can absolutely prevent that, unless you eliminate all the people.

We can only LEGISLATE, by law, some things. Other acts of will or craziness...those cannot be legislated.

/:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

kevindsingleton
September 3, 2008, 09:24 AM
Has there been any mention of the type of firearms used, and where he got them?

Standing Wolf
September 3, 2008, 09:53 AM
...it seems to me this type situation leads easily to, 'It is the gun that caused these deaths', mentality.

Anything whatever can and does encourages leftist extremists to throw away the rights of commoners.

Drgong
September 3, 2008, 10:13 AM
What will hurt the RKBA is when somoene with a CCW and appears to be normal goes on rampage.

Scoutsout2645
September 3, 2008, 11:36 AM
What will hurt the RKBA is when somoene with a CCW and appears to be normal goes on rampage.

Absolutely correct--at best, this is a neutral story. Those who are inclined to be anti will say "see, guns are bad", those who are pro can say "see, restrictions don't work".

What I never see in these stories, or any follow ups, is how this guy got the gun/s he used(especially those guys who shouldn't have had access to guns in the first place).

gregormeister
September 3, 2008, 12:24 PM
And my wife still won't understand why I carry my 38. even to Lowes....Sad sad sad times.

rainbowbob
September 3, 2008, 02:07 PM
...it seems to me this type situation leads easily to, 'It is the gun that caused these deaths', mentality.

It should lead to the conclusion that untreated mental illness caused these deaths.

Zamora's mother said she had tried repeatedly to get help for her son, whom she described as "desperately mentally ill."

It is so difficult to get help for a person with a serious mental illness that many families finally give up in despair after years and years of frustration and failure.

We have swung so far toward "protecting" the civil rights of the mentally ill that we (as a society) are reluctant to enforce treatment - even when a person has demonstrated beyond doubt that they are a danger to himself and/or others.

Treatment works - but the person needing it is often too impaired to make that decision for himself. We would not allow an Alzheimer's patient to wander around confused and ill. We would take somebody having a heart attack to the hospital - even if they insisted we leave them alone. If somebody has an infectious disease that puts the rest of us at grave risk - we force them into quarantine and treatment.

But if you are suffering from a debilitating brain disorder - tough luck - you're on your own until you kill somebody.

This HAS to change.

ridata
September 3, 2008, 08:34 PM
We would take somebody having a heart attack to the hospital - even if they insisted we leave them alone.

As a medic, I'd have to disagree. Any patient is legally free to refuse care. Assuming they are of age and have a normal level of consciousness, and they refuse care, we cannot treat them.
Your comparison worked, until you got to the even if they insisted we leave them alone
So while I do agree with you, the way you have it is factually incorrect. If they have a lowered level of consciousness (sick), we take care of them, yet when they have a debilitating brain disorder we leave them alone much longer.

TRGRHPY
September 3, 2008, 09:50 PM
rainbowbob (and others...can't leave anyone out :))

The issue of taking care of mental illness in our country is difficult. If someone wants treatment they will get it. BUT, most do not want treatment or, more commonly, won't wait in lines for public assistance, and others who "feel better" and quit taking their meds only to relapse and then start self-medicating. So you have a massive amount of people in this country who self-medicate, including things as common as depression. Our prisons are filled with people who have mental illness, but there is not really a system set up for them...and in fairness, there shouldn't be, at least not in prison. Prisons were never meant to be a mental health facililty. Since most of the Mental health hospitals were closed several years ago, the problem is getting worse.

People have choices, and even the mentally ill are capable of making those choices. If they choose to get help, it is there for them. But you cannot excuse their actions either way...mental illness is not an excuse or defense for committing crime. It is a very sad situation all around.

rainbowbob
September 4, 2008, 02:51 AM
...mental illness is not an excuse or defense for committing crime.

I agree - Mental illness is NOT an excuse or defense for committing a crime.

But in too many cases it is the preventable cause. Paranoid delusions are "real" - and often can be successfully treated by medications.

The difference can be night and day...

...and life or death.

TRGRHPY
September 4, 2008, 05:16 PM
But in too many cases it is the preventable cause. Paranoid delusions are "real" - and often can be successfully treated by medications.

I agree that the paranoid delusions (and hallucinations) are very real. I worked with these people for a little over a year and have recently studied abnormal psychology. I am not so sure about the first part of your statement though. The reason is that the term "mental illness" encompasses such a very wide range of illness' that it is tough to determine what could have been prevented and what would have happened anyway. For example, there are quite a few people, especially on here, that would say that the mentally ill should not have access to firearms. So does that mean that the soldier fresh from Iraq with PTSD should be included on that list? What about the many people who are treated for depression of some sort? With reference to the DSMIV, where do you draw the line with restricting access to firearms, and where do you (or the government) step in to force people to take their medications? Right now those who have been deemed mentally ill by the courts are currently restricted from purchasing firearms, but how is anyone to tell who else has the capability to snap and become violent? I don't think that it is possible because I feel that the mentall illness is not solely to blame in many instances of violent crime. I would say that there are quite a few who commit violent crime who also have a mental illness, but there is a difference. Since there are those who have criminal tendencies who do not have mental illness, it makes it very hard if not impossible to determine which crimes could have been prevented. It is just such a complex thing.

I agree that there needs to be better access to mental health care for those who need it. But ultimately for the majority of those who need care, it is going to be up to them to stick with it. If the government is to step in and take a bigger role in forcing people to treatment, it will take someone (more likely a bunch of someones) far more intelligent that I to figure out a way to work it out so that we are not just warehousing our citizens.

cassandrasdaddy
September 4, 2008, 06:08 PM
its a tough call. i am opposed to forcing meds on principle and then i think of my friend jason. took himself off mefds and is miserable and a rish to himself and others. climbed white house fence after watching a michael moore flick that he interpreted as a documentary.even with the secret service involved he was turned lose and i expect to see him hurt or worse before its all over

66912
September 4, 2008, 07:10 PM
Sleepy part of the State? OP, I am sorry but as a victim of a home invasion shooting in this same area 10 years ago, I have to disagree. There is quite alot of crime up in the sleepy North. IMHO, I am sure the Amish thought the same thing about where they live just a few short years ago.
Were there are people, there is violence and crime. This is a fact of life everywhere we live.
Please do not let complacency assist in letting your guard down. My intention is not to sound paranoid, but I do hope this situation will remind us all about staying aware and being prepared for the worst, because it WILL come when you least expect it.

FourTeeFive
September 4, 2008, 07:48 PM
There is quite alot of crime up in the sleepy North.

Wow, I've lived here over 30 years and guess I've missed it. Maybe I was sleeping.

66912
September 4, 2008, 08:47 PM
Apparrantly so.

halfgone
September 4, 2008, 09:19 PM
I wouldn't be worried about the RKBA in Alger, or WA for that matter (except for that eternal vigilance thing). This isn't too far from one of the best gun shops I have ever seen, not to mention there are quite a few shooters in this area. People will see it for what it was, senseless, unfortunate violence.

66912
September 4, 2008, 09:54 PM
Halfgone,

I absolutely agree. I was actually suprised that this individual did not happen across any armed citizens during his rampage. I lived up in that area for nearly 20 years and always had a weapon. I unfortunately was a victim of my own complacency ( As I stated before) and almost paid the ultimate price. There are by far, many more dangerous places to live within the world, the country or Washington state for that matter.
My sympathy goes out to all who were directly impacted by the loss of so many individuals. There is a member of this board who was close to Deputy Jackson, His whole community is sorrowed at this loss.

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