A teacher raised an interesting statement today...


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natedog
September 5, 2003, 06:29 PM
My forensics teacher today was talking about self defense and philosophy. He said that if you have a gun for self defense, and plan ahead for defending yourself, he proclaimed that that is pre-meditated murder. Your thoughts?

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Mark Tyson
September 5, 2003, 06:31 PM
No, because it lacks malice.

duckfoot
September 5, 2003, 06:32 PM
:barf:

SDC
September 5, 2003, 06:33 PM
That's ludicrous; it's pre-meditated SELF-DEFENCE, and if the other party didn't wish to be defended from, all he'd have to do is not do anything worth being defended against (if you see my meaning).

natedog
September 5, 2003, 06:36 PM
My thoughts exactly. My, my, that was fast.

critter
September 5, 2003, 06:42 PM
Ignorence is NOT confined to the student body in many if not most schools nowadays!

Autolite
September 5, 2003, 06:46 PM
Of course, this line of reasoning would also apply to all police and military personnel who have been hired and trained by the state to carry out government sanctioned 'pre-meditated murder'. Interesting point of view isn't it ???

tiberius
September 5, 2003, 07:03 PM
He's an idiot. Its still early in the semester....change classes.

Silver Bullet
September 5, 2003, 07:09 PM
I can remember when teachers were role models. Guess that gives away my age.

PlayTheAces
September 5, 2003, 07:09 PM
So just what exactly is this guy advocating? Is he putting forward a premise that people have no right to self defense? Is he suggesting shooting for the kneecaps? What, precisely, is his major maladjustment?

4v50 Gary
September 5, 2003, 07:20 PM
Well if that isn't a harsh and strict interpretation of the Code of Hammurabi. Even the English Common Law allows for self defense (and I'm sure Hammurabi would agree).

General murder is the slaying of another human with malice aforethought. Gee, unless I'm mistaken, self defense isn't malice aforethought.

boing
September 5, 2003, 07:22 PM
And if you decide to be defenseless, knowing that you could be killed as a result, shouldn't you be committed to a mental institution for suicidal tendencies?

Baba Louie
September 5, 2003, 07:28 PM
Pre-meditated "justfiable homicide" is more like it and a "more" correct answer.

A flippant answer might be, "some people just need killin".

Murder is a considered to be an offense against the peace and tranquility of the community. Defending your life could be so construed, but if your P's & Q's are aligned, most DA/Grand Juries will give you a clean bill.

That's a good thing.

Adios

Don Gwinn
September 5, 2003, 07:31 PM
My thoughts, in no particular order:

1. If I'd been there, I'd have felt compelled to raise my hand and ask exactly how he figures such a thing. This has gotten me in trouble before, but I can't seem to help it.

2. If this guy is teaching criminal forensics (studying physical evidence, etc.) watch him carefully. He may know what he's talking about, but he's not off to a good start.

3. If this guy is teaching forensics as in debate and logic, either get out of that class or resign yourself to a long semester. This man will do damage to his students.

mete
September 5, 2003, 07:38 PM
He has a basic misunderstanding between 'killing' and 'murder'. Unfortunately this is common since most translations of the ten commandments are wrong. The original is 'thou shalt not murder". Killing is acceptable in the bible and in the courts. Our supreme court has stated that you have a right to use lethal force to prevent death or serious injury. It's sad when people permit themselves to be murdered without any attempt to prevent that murder.

Skunkabilly
September 5, 2003, 07:46 PM
Great, so now we have this guy AND that CSI show making experts out of everybody.

Can I ask where you're going to school?

Henry Bowman
September 5, 2003, 08:06 PM
Maybe he's just yanking you chain to see who will bite.

(Sorry about the mixed metaphor.)

Andrew Wyatt
September 5, 2003, 08:11 PM
Sounds like Bakersfield College, which is populated by the largest supply of leftists i've ever seen in one place.

cool45auto
September 5, 2003, 08:14 PM
Never before did a "smiley" say so much: :barf:

Waitone
September 5, 2003, 08:41 PM
I've been frustrated lately because I see so many idiots who are able to get their pontifications published and make money at the same time. In frustration I demanded to know how I can be an idiot and get paid for it.

Weeeellll, seems to me I don't have to limit myself to journalism. Seems I can become a forensics instructor, be an idiot, and get paid for it.

OK! I'm off to implement Plan B.

JohnKSa
September 5, 2003, 09:05 PM
A well educated person in a crime-fighting related profession who doesn't know what murder is...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Standing Wolf
September 5, 2003, 09:08 PM
I think you need a forensics teacher with more than half a brain.

I shoot to live, not kill.

Zundfolge
September 5, 2003, 09:34 PM
He said that if you have a gun for self defense, and plan ahead for defending yourself, he proclaimed that that is pre-meditated murder.

Killing is not always murder.


Self defense is one of those cases where killing is not murder.



Therefore your teacher is wrong.

:evil:

Duncan Idaho
September 5, 2003, 09:50 PM
Your teacher's village called...they want their idiot back. :rolleyes: :scrutiny: :uhoh: :barf:

The fundamental principle of forensics is discernment. If one cannot discern between moral (right action) killing i.e. defensive killing, and immoral (wrong action) killing i.e. pre-meditated, unprovoked murder, then one has no business teaching.

Call him on it. If he did it to test the class, fine. If he believes it, then he is a certifiable moron. You should then take immediate action to leave him and his BS behind.

goon
September 5, 2003, 10:16 PM
In that case, every officer involved shooting amounts to murder/attempted murder.
Don't the police carry loaded weapons and practice using them regularly?
Why doesn't it bother him that the government is training law enforcement officers to murder citizens without even allowing them to have their say in a court of law?
Ask him about that one.:neener:
Check and mate.

Also, what about the criminal?
By attacking you, isn't the criminal acutally trying to commit suicide?

SunBear
September 5, 2003, 10:16 PM
Using the teachers logic, if you do not keep a gun in your home to protect your children and someone breaks in and harms them have you committed premeditated child abuse?

ENC
September 5, 2003, 11:30 PM
Natedogg

I am also a forensics major (2nd year grad school) I asked this to some of my teachers even my victimology teacher (liberal class IMO) said no way. Of course most of my teachers are present or ex officers.

What type of forensics major are you? I am a TI looking into Arson and homicide right now can't decide police or fire hahaha

Crimper-D
September 5, 2003, 11:40 PM
This Nitwit could have been a JUDGE!
Course that would expose him to legal definitions, instead of neurotic ones.
:evil: :neener: ;)
Ditch the class..................

natedog
September 6, 2003, 01:26 AM
No, it's not BC. I'm talking about debate class at Stockdale High School, and the class is one of the biggest collections of sheeple that I've ever seen. Debate and logic is a great way to shape one's mind, but not with a leftist extremist at the wheel. I can see my classmates as clay mounds, ready to be molded. And under this man, they will be molded to his beliefs. Oh, here comes another 30 or so young people to the liberal way of thought.

Andrew Wyatt
September 6, 2003, 02:54 AM
aye, government schools are like that.

timbo
September 6, 2003, 08:31 AM
I've found this definition and a few others regarding murder, many of them being similiar: "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice."

The common words in all the definitions is "unlawful", "premeditated", and "malice". Ask him to elaborate on his thoughts, and if you cannot come to an acceptable answer, call him a moron and drop the class, seriously (well, not necessarily the moron part).

I once had a physics teacher who tried to use an elevator's motion in an example in class. He stated that when you go down in an elevator you will feel heavier. Conversely, when you go up in an elevator you will tend to feel lighter. The frightening part is that everyone in the class just wrote it down, which is where the term "sheeple" comes from. Anyway, 20 minutes later and with some frustration I had to teach the instructor about his lesson. I don't mean to sound arrogant about this, but if I have a teacher that doesn't know the basics, then he/she shouldn't be teaching. One other time I got up and walked right out in the middle of the lecture because I thought the teacher was full of... well, you know. But hey, I figure if I'm paying $800 dollars to take a class, I'm entitled to do that.

Hmm, didn't mean to hijack the thread, sorry about that. Anyway, I say stand up to you teacher and get him to explain himself. I always recommend being respectful even if you do feel frustrated though. Feel free to tell him that you feel his answer is unacceptable to you, unless he has proof or good logic and reasoning behind his statement.

Also, if you are the only one that thinks the way you do you aren't necessarily wrong, but keep an open mind because you probably are.

Apple a Day
September 6, 2003, 08:52 AM
Owning a gun doesn't make you a premediated murderer any more than:
* owning a fire extinguisher makes you a premed. arsonist
* owning a knife makes you a premed. assaulter/murderer
* owning a car and alcohol makes you a premed. drunk driver/murderer
* being born with a penis makes you a premed. rapist
*being born with a vagina makes you a premed. prostitute
* owning a camera makes you a premed. child pornographer
*owning a bag of fertilizer makes you a mad bomber/murderer
* owning a baseball bat makes you a premed. murderer/assaulter
.... the list goes on and on.
And for all those bashing teachers, I happen to be a high school physics teacher. :fire:

timbo
September 6, 2003, 09:21 AM
Please don't be mad, I don't mean to offend teachers, I just mean to offend the bad teachers. The vast majority of teachers I've had were good ones so the bad ones are definitely in the minority. Just know your stuff or at least look it up before telling the class about it. I just don't like teachers drilling me about things that they are wrong about, an example of which I stated above.

For what it's worth, the best teacher I ever had, all the way through high school and 7 years of college, was my high school physics teacher, teaching at a public school.

From the end of your post, I got the vibe that you might be mad. While I don't hesitate to stand up for myself in an argument, I don't want to unintentially rub someone the wrong way. Messageboards make sarcasm and other attitude in posts look like actual criticism.

And, so I haven't completely gone off topic, self defense isn't murder. :)

ReadyontheRight
September 6, 2003, 10:02 AM
This story has proven to be an urban legend, but still a good example of the basic flaw in your teacher's way of thinking:

"Marine Corps General Reinwald was interviewed on the radio by a female interviewer concerning guns and children. Regardless of how you feel about gun control this is one of the best comeback lines of all time. It is a portion of a National Public Radio (NPR) interview between the female broadcaster and US Marine Corps General Reinwald as he was preparing to sponsor a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?

GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see how. We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to become violent killers.

GENERAL REINWALD: Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you? "

From Snopes.com:

Origins: As great a tale as this is, it's pure fabrication. It began life in 1999, purportedly about an "LTG Reinwald" of the US Army. In 2001 it reappeared, this time attributed to "Marine Corps General Reinwald."

The U.S. Army denies that there is a Lieutenant General Reinwald and chalks the whole thing up as a hoax. (Which is as logic dictated all along; if an armed forces spokesperson ever gave voice to a sexist remark likening a female interviewer to a prostitute, that officer would soon be called upon to make a very public apology as well as face charges within ranks for conduct unbecoming.)

National Public Radio had this to say about the matter:

"We are aware of an erroneous story posted on the Free Republic Website, and possibly elsewhere, which mentions a supposed interview between an unnamed NPR reporter and a U.S Army Lieutenant General Reinwald. The story is false -- the dialogue mentioned was not an NPR interview, and it never aired on any NPR program. "

Those who like their guns and who believe responsible gun ownership begins with teaching young people the right way to handle firearms at an early age have a great fondness for this story. As well they should, because this anecdote illustrates in a humorous way the difference between having the ability to do something and that ability dictating life choices.

Duncan Idaho
September 6, 2003, 11:46 AM
Anyway, I say stand up to you teacher and get him to explain himself.That is the best advice.



It is early in the class, and it just may be that your teacher is trying to teach a valuable lesson in debate. That lesson is the technique of using your opponent's own words to discredit said opponent.

In a debate it is far less effective to argue in a way that attempts to sway your opponent to your line of reasoning. It is far more effective to turn your opponents words into tools that will simultaneously discredit your opponent, and sway the audience to believe in your line of reasoning.

In order to become adept at this, a person must learn to listen (not just hear - as my debate teacher used to say) to the opponents words, think critically about them - their accuracy/veracity/relevance/etc. - and blend them into the argument that one has prepared.

If your teacher is extraordinarily bright, it could be that he introduced the idea of this seemingly paradoxical (but utterly false) argument in order to see which student would seriously think about the proposition, and also be willing to challenge it. Both of those predispositions being vital in a person capable of effective debate.

If your teacher is in fact a moron, and he truly believes that well considered self-defense is premeditated murder; then remember to argue in a way that will persuade the rest of the class. The reason being that only a fool would argue with a fool, for the fool's sake. And any person that succeeds in reaching adulthood with the belief that self-defense is premeditated murder, is irretrievably a fool.

Good luck!

usmcmonty
September 6, 2003, 01:12 PM
It would not be commited with malice which must be proved to convict someone of murder, the most one can expect to have stick without malice is manslaughter.

Even back in common law days "self-defense" was a acceptible.

Also the act of self defense lacks a major factor that one needs to try a criminal case..Mens Rea = guilty mind. if the person does not commit the act out of malice (as was stated earlier) than there can not be an effective trial. In addition to that one must prove motive, and although the media wants us to think, one can be just be made up on a whim.

Graystar
September 6, 2003, 01:32 PM
Your teacher is also legally wrong. All crimes involve intent to commit the crime (or negligence that resulted in the act.) When you defend yourself, the intent is to preserve your life. There is no intent to cause harm to the other person...only to prevent harm to yourself.

Matthew_Q
September 6, 2003, 01:44 PM
I would have replied to that moron like this:

"So then, if someone attacked you, and you had already decided that you would not protect yourself, and this person killed you, would that not be suicide?"

I liked the police thing, too.

What logically applies to one, must apply to all.

Triad
September 6, 2003, 02:08 PM
Is your teacher British? Reminds me of agricola explaining that self defense was still legal in Britain.

Someone tries to murder you and you defend yourself with a stick you found lying on the ground=self defense
Someone tries to murder you and you defend yourself with a stick you carried specifically for self defense=possible legal trouble

goon
September 6, 2003, 02:47 PM
I am a product of public schools, and I don't think I turned out that bad.
My HS social studies teacher was very clear about his reasons for owning firearms.
He wanted to be able to resist an oppressive government, and he didn't hide it.
They aren't all bad.

BowStreetRunner
September 7, 2003, 01:16 AM
tell the turd to stick with collecting evidence and let lawyers make determinations like that
BSR

roscoe
September 7, 2003, 03:05 AM
Murder is what the law says it is, unlike say, killing, which exists outside any legal context. So, if it is not murder according to the law, it is not murder. The definition of first degree murder usually requires specific malice aforethought. This guy sounds like he has a specific philosophical ax to grind, but it doesn't seem very sharp.

mgjohn
September 7, 2003, 05:11 AM
Guy is an idiot. Liberal panty wad. The rest of the semester should be interesting............:barf:

c_yeager
September 7, 2003, 08:48 AM
i agree with the rest. self defense isnt murder. and i'd challenge your teacher to find ANY culture or "rule of law" that specified otherwise.

spartacus2002
September 7, 2003, 09:20 AM
i agree with the rest. self defense isnt murder. and i'd challenge your teacher to find ANY culture or "rule of law" that specified otherwise.

Uh, England in the year 2003?

Not trying to be snotty. Just reminding us all how far down that road some societies have gone. What a shame.....

c_yeager
September 7, 2003, 12:50 PM
Self defense is not EXPRESSLY forbidden in england. Although it seems to be getting there quickly.

Moparmike
September 7, 2003, 04:55 PM
I cant really add much to this thread in the "Your instructor is a complete moron and should be flogged with law books" sense, but I will add something to Apple's post:

owning a fire extinguisher makes you a premed. arsonist You may want to change that to gasoline and matches. Owning a fire extinguisher makes me a premed fire fighter.;)

UnknownSailor
September 7, 2003, 04:59 PM
No, it's not BC. I'm talking about debate class at Stockdale High School, and the class is one of the biggest collections of sheeple that I've ever seen. Debate and logic is a great way to shape one's mind, but not with a leftist extremist at the wheel. I can see my classmates as clay mounds, ready to be molded. And under this man, they will be molded to his beliefs. Oh, here comes another 30 or so young people to the liberal way of thought.

Well, then I would do my best to provide these students with counterpoints to all the leftist FUD that the instructor will be putting out there. Consider it a success if you can save just one.
In short, make it your mission in life to be a royal PITA to the "teacher". Counter every emotional argument with the facts, and never give up.
I would jump at the opportunity to have as much of an impact as you potentially do.

seeker_two
September 8, 2003, 05:51 AM
Apple has the right track---use a few of those arguements.

I used to do high-school debate in my not-so-innocent youth. While logic and reason have their important place, another valuable tool to use is, through leading questions, to use the counterpoint's arguements & statements to lead to irrational conclusions such as:

Do you currently possess kitchen knives/gasoline/camera/car?

Because they possess firearms, do you believe that the police actively plan to murder people?

Do you believe that self defense is a legal defense?

Do you believe that the possesion of other objects (knives, baseball bats, chairs, etc) shows premeditation if those items can be used in self defense?

Another thing: have a LOT of research handy to prove your position no matter which way he/she leads. (i.e. the last question: any articles about people using household items for self defense). This way, you look prepared and thoughtful.

Have fun...

Apple a Day
September 8, 2003, 06:19 AM
timbo,
I'm not angry or offended by your post. I apologize if I came off that way. I do get irritated by the bash-teachers bandwagon that pulls into every thread having to do with education on this forum. Sometimes the teacher-bashing bandwagon gets pulled over for speeding by the bash-cops bandwagon but it almost never fails to show up sooner or later.

Moparmike,
I'm not sure if I would change 'fire extinguisher' to 'gas and matches' after all. I was kinda aiming towards the idea that a gun is a means to put out a crime before it destroyed life and property... like a fire extinguisher. I reckon your approach fits better with the others, though. It's another good point to bring up in class and argue. ;)

XLMiguel
September 8, 2003, 08:54 AM
Hrumph!:what:
Self-defense is reactive, i.e. nothing happens until you are threatened, YOU are the victim.

Murder is proactive, somebody else is the victim. The 'teacher' has poo for brains.

Shalako
September 8, 2003, 08:12 PM
The only way the teacher's point even makes a smidgen of sense is:

[iffy scenario]
Lets say you go to a biker bar and some big biker dude in there says he doesn't like you and if you ever show your face in there again he will bludgeon you with an axe handle. Exit stage left. Ok, so you, never having carried a gun before, procure a weapon and go back to that very same bar. You sit down and order a drink. The big biker dude is there as predicted and commences to pull out the aforementioned axe handle. You obligingly pull out your gun and ventilate the guy.....
[/]

premeditated self-defence or just plain looking for trouble? :rolleyes:

Other than that, the teacher sounds like a real tool.

Browns Fan
September 8, 2003, 08:42 PM
If you are wanting to vent, dont do it in front of your teacher. Do it here, we are here for you. I had to take a religion class in college and whenever I disagreed with the professor, I spoke with him in private during the break and let him know that I respectfully disagreed with his doctrine. I still pulled an A out of the class.

Moparmike
September 8, 2003, 09:50 PM
[iffy scenario]
Lets say you go to a biker bar and some big biker dude in there says he doesn't like you and if you ever show your face in there again he will bludgeon you with an axe handle. Exit stage left. Ok, so you, never having carried a gun before, procure a weapon and go back to that very same bar. You sit down and order a drink. The big biker dude is there as predicted and commences to pull out the aforementioned axe handle. You obligingly pull out your gun and ventilate the guy.....
[/]You might want to point out to the mor..err... teacher, that possession and concealment of a firearm is not only illegal in a bar, but also VERY illegal while consuming alcoholic beverages.

You might also point out that RESPONSIBLE firearm owners would never do something such as that because it is asking for trouble, illegal in many ways, and just plain stupid. Such activities do not bode well for retaining ownership rights of guns and your life or the virginity of your backside in prison :uhoh: :eek: . (Sorry, but there was no real nice way to say that.:o )

XavierBreath
September 8, 2003, 09:57 PM
Preserving your life is never murder. Your teacher is a liberal idiot.

MR.G
September 8, 2003, 11:15 PM
Sounds like the guy has some real mental problems. I had several like that, about thirty years ago, when I was in college. They just keep breeding

RandyB
September 9, 2003, 11:33 AM
It is not premeditated because their is no "who" in the owning of a gun for self defense. I.E. "If Mr. BG walks in and I defend myself and family...." vs. "When my brother-in-law,neighbor, etc. walks through that door...." Also murder is not self-defense. Murder is the willful killing of someone. Self-defense is not even necessarily fatal. I can defend my daughter from an angry dog by OC pepper spray and not kill the dog. Ask him what the difference is between justified homicide and criminal/ non-justified homicide.

RustyHammer
September 9, 2003, 03:21 PM
In the same was as buying a car make you a hit and run / DWI killer. :fire:

Drjones
September 10, 2003, 04:20 PM
natedog, please update us.

I'm interested to know what his point was in saying this. What was the context? What topic were you guys discussing when this came up?

That said, here are my thoughts:

Your, um, "teacher," is dead wrong. The way I see it, if I attack natedog and natedog shoots me to protect his life, I essentially FORCED nate to shoot me.

(Let's assume I'm armed with a club or knife.)

When I made the choice to attack you with a deadly weapon, I forced two choices upon you; fight back and live, or do nothing and die or be seriously injured or maimed.

Since I initiated the attack, the responsibility lies on ME. I'd love to hear your professor try to blame someone for defending their own life.

Your "teacher" is blaming the victim for the crime. He probably also believes that women attract rape and deserve it by wearing revealing, "too sexy" clothes.

There is NEVER any excuse for crime.

If this idiot doesn't want to take another life to save his own, that's his own business, and frankly, the students at his school would be MUCH better off without him.

But don't dare try to force those views on me.

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