[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

When I start my search in earnest here in a few years to get a puppy to train up *primarily* as my full-time buddy and companion, but also as a quail/pheasant dog, what all breeds should I look at? Here's my criteria.

-Great companion animal. Not a nutjob like a lot of pointers & setters. "Someone" who can live in the house with me and be relatively calm and cooperative once they get past puppy stage. Very affectionate and just a good l'il buddy.
-Very birdy & a good nose - can point well, retrieve, and be highly trainable for upland birds - quail & pheasant.
-Short hair, preferably a *minimal shedder*, if you understand that phrase (and certainly no undercoat to blow).
-Generally obedient and trainable - not hard-headed.
-Somewhat of a watchdog instinct - will bark if something is amiss, but not a pathological barker of course.
-The smaller the better!!

Obviously I will look solely to good good breeders with many generations of hunting dogs. So what am I looking at?

-GSP ?
-Weim?
-Vizsla?
-Munster?
-what?

Thanks. I'm initially quite interested in the Vizsla....

http://www.google.com/search?q=vizsla&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.google:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Vizsla

[ArmedBear]

I can vouch for the Vizsla. IMO it has the best combo of all you mentioned, but I'm prejudiced.

None of these dogs will just hang out in the house without exercise and mental stimulation, though.

And all of them are "hard" dogs -- not hard-headed, but independent, highly trainable and intelligent. You just have to know what you're doing, and be willing to learn a lot more.

There ain't no such thing as a good bird dog that doesn't have an independent temperament. You need that if you expect a dog to hunt 'em up 100 yards ahead of you instead of clinging to your side in the field.

I have seen a Spinone who was a mellow companion and birdy, but they have hair on them.

[MCgunner]

I've always been a Labrador kinda guy. I've heard they'll point, but I don't know what kinda pointer they'd make. I'm a duck hunter and they are great retrievers. They have all your other requirements met except for the fact that they can be rather exuberant, especially when it's time to go hunting. They have a lot of energy.

I've never had one, but always heard a Brittany was a good dog to have for upland and retrieving. I've heard they can be hard to train, but I have no experience with 'em. Labs have always done it for me. Son-in-law got a new yellow pup we're starting. I think he's going to be a good dog.

[buck460XVR]

GWP.....nuff said. Before I had Drahtharrs, I had Shorthairs, Labs, English and Irish Setters and hounds. Only bird dog I would ever own again is a Wirehair. Eager to learn....eager to please....very intelligent and very family orientated. Can be a bit of overly protective of children tho....but that's not really a bad thing. Wirehairs also make damn good blood trailers and will readily hunt everything you put them on. Guess that's why they call 'em "versatile gun dogs".

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hey Buck, thanks - does the GWP have some sort of special difference from the GSP? Or are they the same dog essentially just with different hair?

The GSP and Small Munsterlander are also high on the short list.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_shorthaired_pointer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Munsterlander

[charby]

Pretty much the only non shedding pointing dog is the GWP. I currently have a lab and she is a pretty good gun dog. I'm planning on a GWP pup this spring and I will get another lab when my dog dies.

Its fun to hunt with a flushing dog, my dog almost like a pointer because she circles a bird before she pounces on it to flush. She hunts close so almost all birds flushed are in gun range.

[ArmedBear]

Drathaars can be dog-aggressive, among other things. The Germans like it that way, apparently. Just something to look out for.

Our Vizsla has not shed appreciably yet, and we've had him for over a year. I'll update if he starts shedding.:)

They have no undercoat and thin, short fur. This makes them really easy to bathe. Our dogs live inside with us, so we keep them about as clean as ourselves. It's no problem to keep him clean. Not that he likes it, of course. Loves to swim, hates baths -- pretty typical for a dog, I guess.

[Shawnee]

I've always had Springers and Labs, but knew plenty of GWPs and GSPs and think highly of them. Though my Spaniels and Labs have all been super - and all lived in the house - I'd guess pretty strongly that a GWP or GSP is probably the dog you're looking for.

The Spaniels shed and though Labs shed less, their coat is oily and they can leave a dingy stripe on your walls and any light colored sofa they like to rub on.

95% of Intelligence and Good Behavior comes from breeding. I did my homework on sires for a year - then paid a year in advance of the breeding to get a pup from a particular pair (Silverbrook Kennels in Fredericksburg, Va) and the dog was an absolute gem. The reverse is true - 95% of Stupidity and Bad Behavior comes from breeding too. A word to the Wise.

As someone already said - big dogs and any hunting dogs need interaction and exercise nearly all its' life. What one gets out of a dog is definitely determined by what one puts into the dog.

Lastly, and I think this is especially true with GWPs and GSPs - the training is a journey, NOT a destination. Don't Rush It ! Ever! If you need something to brag about - buy an expensive shotgun.

Good Luck !

:cool:

[30-06 lover]

Brittany. The sweetest dog ever. No force. I say again no force when training a Brit. Other than that they are one the the eaisest dogs to train. Just praise good behavior and a stern no for the bad and you have a "hell on wheels" hunter. A little longer hair, but easily shaved. No bigger than 45 lbs. Instinctive hunters. All the ones I have come into contact with want one thing...Be with the family and make them happy. Not watchdogs though.

[35 Whelen]

I've had English Pointers and GSP's. The EP's were like tools; inanimate objects. They have a job a to do. Period. They don't care if you appreciate them, praise them, or reward them. They're very good at what they do, but they're so, so business-like. Also, the EP's in my experience don't particularly like to retrieve; they'll do it because they have to, but given a choice....
In my opinion, GSP's require attention. Mine have been very affectionate. The female I currently own (Grace) loves attention, loves to be in the house, is extremely intellegent and very eager to please. Doesn't care if she's pointing quail or pheasants or just retrieving. As long as we're together! Monday evening, I walked down back behind the house to hunt dove and she's perfectly content to sit by my side while waiting for birds to come in. No running around like an EP.
My last GSP, a male, had the opportunity to do just about everything including retrieving waterfowl and rabbit which he did without question. Well... he really didn't like giving me the rabbit, but he submitted.

Here she is at about 5 mos. retrieving her first quail:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Grace11-03sm2.jpg

And again at 6-7 mos. with a like-aged male pointing a covey:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/MaxGrace01-04.jpg

I'll never be without another GSP even if I can't hunt upland birds. I hope to breed Grace within the next year and continue her lineage. She's the best bird dog I've ever owned. MY vet, who is NOT a hunter told me his next dog will be a GSP just because of their intellegence and personalities.

As far as the hard-headedness goes generally speaking, males are harder headed, but much more forgiving when they have to have an a$$ whipping, while females aren't as hard headed, but tend to pout after a spanking. That being said, Grace acts like a male; very hard headed but extremely intellegent and hard driving and shrugs off the occassional whipping. I bought her from a GSP breeder here in North Texas. He told me her father was a hard-driving, hard-headed dog and it could be passed on to mine, and sure enough!
I honestly think it's quite easy to tell a dogs personality when they're pups. When you enter a pen full of 8 week or so old pups, I think the ones that are drawn to humans, in other words come to you, jump on you, watch you, want attention, etc. tend to be more "people" dogs.
Good luck with your decision.
35W

[Bwana John]

I like my pointing big game Lab.
[IMG]http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1909/aaavu4.th.jpg[/IMG ] (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aaavu4.jpg)


[Clipper]

The Brittany is supposed to be the only naturally pointing retriever. Good upland bird dog, but is gonna run out of steam if used for ducks for long. Great family dogs.

[Loomis]

brittney...

Best bird dog for use as a house pet.

Also the smallest bird dog(by weight), that i know of.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I currently have a red lab. two flaws: extremely aggressive/territorial, separation anxiety. But intelligence and desire to please are incredible. I got her free because of her flaws. I've never seen a lab so aggressive! Will kill dogs on sight(or try to).

[ArmedBear]

Also the smallest bird dog(by weight), that i know of.

Vizslas run the gamut, from under 25 lbs. to 75 or so.

[35 Whelen]

-Short hair, preferably a *minimal shedder*, if you understand that phrase (and certainly no undercoat to blow).

Aren't Brittney's long-haired dogs?

35W

[cliffy]

A black labrador crossed with a collie, border collie, or almost any other intelligent dog, will create a "mutt" of superior hunting skills with few, if any, physical defects. Purebreds are prone to TOO MANY defects from massive inbreeding. The black lab is the key to producing the very best mutts of superior intellence and the desire to perform and learn. Proper Training is the key to perfection with any lab/cross. Hip Displazure is a hideous inbreed disease, so bring on the well-trained MUTTS to aleviate this problem. Many MUTTS are beautiful-looking hunting dogs that actually want to please their masters. cliffy

[Deer Hunter]

German Shorthaired Pointers.

www.ninepines.net

[Loomis]

i think cliffy might be right.

Awhile back, i heard that the best sled dogs are part lab nowdays. Apparently, lab blood improves every breed.

They are the master race of the canine world...or something like that. Master mutt of the mongrel world?

[Loyalist Dave]

I grew up with Brittanies, and now I also like English setters, the Llewellin variation especially! Both are great on birds, and both are great with kids, and in my case, my house is just a bit too small (imho) for a lab, so the Brit or the Llewellin would fit nicely. I'm just deciding which one to get for the kids at the moment myself.....,

LD

[Floppy_D]

My papa had a black lab he hunted quail and pheasant with. It pointed, and boy, did it.

I can't get my boxer to do squat but bark ferociously when not neccesary. (Ocassionally when needed).

[627PCFan]

Im partial to Weims and this ones my goose dog :) (http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=21937446&albumID=0&imageID=44518178)


http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=21937446&albumID=0&imageID=44518178

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=21937446&albumID=0&imageID=44518297

[35 Whelen]

-Short hair, preferably a *minimal shedder*, if you understand that phrase (and certainly no undercoat to blow).
Aren't Brittney's, Labs, Collies, Setters, Drathaars and German Wirehair Pointers all long hair dogs?

35W

[Liberty1776]

"Brittany. The sweetest dog ever. No force. I say again no force when training a Brit. Other than that they are one the the eaisest dogs to train. Just praise good behavior and a stern no for the bad and you have a "hell on wheels" hunter. A little longer hair, but easily shaved. No bigger than 45 lbs. Instinctive hunters. All the ones I have come into contact with want one thing...Be with the family and make them happy."

30-06 Lover, Clipper, Loomis -- you all have it right. But - you gotta shave them like 30-06 Lover said. they gets a bit hairy and shed like a bastid. (35 Whelen - Labs are short hair, Britts are medium hair, Collies def. long hair) My lab has short hair, but sheds as much. just shorter hair.

Back to the Brittany - smartest, sweetest dog ever. damn near self-training. great pointers and retrievers. NO FORCE NECESSARY - like 30-06 L. said. you will want to quit hunting birds at the end of the day before they will want to and soft mouthed -- never a feather out of place when I get the bird back. (not so good with my Lab, on that part) :rolleyes:

[35 Whelen]

(35 Whelen - Labs are short hair, Britts are medium hair, Collies def. long hair)

A Lab is a shorthair dog?!?!? Then what, pray tell, are GSP's, Weimeraners, Vizla's, English Pointers, etc.?

35W

[kumma]

Looks like your on the right track with a Viz'. Try to get some time with one as they are not for everyone. They do shed even with the real short hair. They are a good watchdog / poor guard dog, mine barks like crazy when it hears thunder or it sees a small animal. Very energetic, make sure your up for the exercise plus they're super companions. Mines pushing 9 years old and tends to sleep more than ever. I never hunt with him as I got him a few years ago, he was a house pet, Im looking at getting another one soon. Heres a shot with mine wondering where all the snow came from, it was 65 the day before. :D

http://www.plymouthscreen.com/images/viz-in-snow.jpg

[ImARugerFan]

Brittanys can be hit or miss. I have a miss. Dog is completley bonkers. I mean BONKERS. I don't think I'll ever get him on birds, because he was far too off the wall to get him started young. He's about 2 years old now and starting to behave himself a little more, but he's banished from the house. He's an awesome dog when he's a little bit tired. If I ever look for another brittany, I'll pick the runt. Blue was definitely the alpha of his litter, and he's now a 60 pound brittany. Not fat, no table scraps, just a big britt. He's very birdy, and will go nuts chasing anything he smells. Relentless. I know if he could be professionally trained he would be a good hunter, but he needs a lot of work to get him there. I am quite sure he would rip a bird to shreds upon retrieval.

[ArmedBear]

ImARugerFan-

Our Vizsla was essentially a wild animal until we did obedience training with him (with the help of a local pro). Not hunt training, regular city-dog obedience training. And not "positive training", either.:)

That was the start.

He also needs to run a few miles a day. He got some treadmill training, and he loves it. 3 miles on a treadmill, and he's happy.

If you're not training your dog and not running him, he's going to seem like he's bonkers.

He's an awesome dog when he's a little bit tired.

There's your clue.

You've got 5 chapters in your state: http://www.navhda.org/chapters.html

I highly recommend checking them out. It's not that hard with some help, and in the end, you'll end up with a better dog.

Our dog is far from perfect, but at 16 months, he's a lovable indoor dog that's birdy as hell and can find a quail like a champ. It didn't happen by itself, though. And if anyone tries to talk you into the "all-positive" training that's trendy these days, walk away and find another trainer. These are hard dogs, not soft dogs.

[ArmedBear]

No force. I say again no force when training a Brit. Other than that they are one the the eaisest dogs to train.

I don't know where you got yours, but I've yet to see one that remotely resembled what you describe.:)

I suppose that some dogs might be ruined by "hard" techniques, but I've seen Brittanies in training stubbornly refuse to do anything long after the most stubborn GSPs, Vizslas, etc. had grudgingly looked at the trainer like, "Fine, what do you want?"

[El General]

All pointing breeds can be great companions and great hunting dogs if they are well bred including pointers and setters. Also, all dog breeds shed including the GWP. Whether the dog is a good companion has more to do with how you train it than with the breed. All pointing breeds that are worth their kibble are high energy. You need to handle this well to make your dog a good companion.

It is easier to find a well bred pup from one of the Big 4 pointing dog breeds (Pointer, Setter, Brittany, GSP) because there is a much deeper pool of breeding candidates.

Birdy and small sounds like you are looking for a Brittany.

No shedding sounds like a pipe dream.

All the generalizations about breeds on here are mostly horse*****. Every dog is different and there are dogs from every pointing breed that will fit your criteria.

[ArmedBear]

It is easier to find a well bred pup from one of the Big 4 pointing dog breeds (Pointer, Setter, Brittany, GSP) because there is a much deeper pool of breeding candidates.


It's also easier to find a poor specimen.

Rarer breeds around here seem to be bred far more carefully.

So I disagree with your generalization there, too.

WRT generalizations about breeds... They tend to be accurate, as long as you understand that dogs are individuals. Breeds have standards, and dogs are bred to fit them. Individual dogs of course vary.

For example, Vizslas tend to mature later and to be very vocal and histrionic, but also more interactive with people, GSP's tend to be more aloof and start focusing on task at an earlier age. I've seen some variation in individuals -- sure, there are a few Vizslas that shut up occasionally and there are some very affectionate GSP's. But if you are involved in dog training and testing, and you see a hundred dogs of different breeds in one place, all bred for hunting, you find that breed characteristics are not horse**** at all.

Also, GSP's tend to retain a dog smell due to their thick undercoat, but they're fairly well-protected from cold and abrasion. Vizslas are easy to bathe, but "thinner-skinned."

Are their pointing Labs out there? Yes. Do they have the big-running endurance of the VHD's mentioned in this thread? No.
Are their Vizslas that people use for goose hunting? Yes. Will it be easy to find one that sits still in the cold blind? No way.

It's cool when people get lucky with a particular dog, especially if they discover they also like a different kind of hunting than they got the dog for originally. However, getting a Lab for pheasant or a Vizsla for goose is trusting that your dog will be different from most members of its breed. Any dog is a little bit of a gamble, but getting a dog specifically for what it's not supposed to be is a gamble with lousy odds.:)

[mbt2001]

Cocker Spaniel or some other kind of spaniel. They are bird dogs, but on the smaller side and are nice companions. Alarm dogs, but not guard dogs... I will caution you, sporting dogs need a little space to run and romp and you need to make sure you are providing them at least 30 min to 1 hour romp time per day. Train, then play. That is the way to do it.

One more thing, the bloodline is VITAL not just to a good bird / gun dog, but to a GOOD dog (period) So contact the breeds club and / or AKC and determine a good reliable breeder in your area. Virtually EVERY breed has a club. So take this part seriously; you want to ask about bloodlines, have the sires and dames suffered from health issues, do they have any champion show or field awards? The farther back the awards go, the higher the price. Don't be a noob.

One more thing on top of the other thing... Get the puppy that comes up to you. If none comes up to you, do not buy. Since you are also looking for a companion dog, this is important and believe me, it does make a difference. People will say it doesn't, but it does.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/cocker_spaniel/
http://www.akc.org/breeds/cocker_spaniel/puppy.cfm
http://www.asc-cockerspaniel.org/

I am not endorsing the cocker spaniel, but the above is for reference, any breed you pick will have a standard and a club, make sure yours conforms to the standard and is a club breeder.

[Loomis]

ArmedBear:

I heard a rumor that pointing labs sometimes tend towards a reddish color because the breeders sneaked some viszla blood into their stock.

I believe it. Pointing labs tend to be less stocky than regular labs. The viszla rumor I heard would explain why.

[El General]

It's also easier to find a poor specimen.

Rarer breeds around here seem to be bred far more carefully.

So I disagree with your generalization there, too.


My experience has been the opposite. The high puppy prices that you see people get for less popular breeds attracts people breeding for profit on puppy sales. It is alot easier to make money on 8 $1200 viszla puppies than it is to make money on 8 $300 pointer puppies.

Smaller breeds have smaller gene pools to select studs and dams. This makes it harder to improve a breed through selective breeding.

I have nothing against viszlas, Munsterlanders (large or small), GWP's, pudelpointers, or other small population pointing breeds. There is a viszla bitch down here in the Gulf Coast NSTRA region that is as good a dog of any breed that I have ever seen. The owner is having an extrememly difficult time finding a suitable stud.

That would not be an issue with a shorthair, pointer, setter, or brittany.

[mbt2001]

My experience has been the opposite. The high puppy prices that you see people get for less popular breeds attracts people breeding for profit on puppy sales. It is alot easier to make money on 8 $1200 viszla puppies than it is to make money on 8 $300 pointer puppies.

The bloodline is what is important. People that are part of the "responsible breeder world" (AKC or the breed clubs) do not do this for profit, they carefully breed and keep records and so on. Careless breeders have ruined some good breeds by not being careful in breeding HOWEVER this has never touched many bloodlines. Buy the pup from the right breeder (see my earlier post) and things will work out nicely. Buy it from a store or a puppy mill or the redneck down the street and things might work out well, but they might not.

[ArmedBear]

Right on.

Furthermore, our Vizsla, with great bloodlines and testing well so far, wasn't $1200, and a good GSP ain't $300 either. Not around here.

[buck460XVR]

It is easier to find a well bred pup from one of the Big 4 pointing dog breeds (Pointer, Setter, Brittany, GSP) because there is a much deeper pool of breeding candidates.


It's also easier to find a poor specimen.

Rarer breeds around here seem to be bred far more carefully


my experience seems to be about the same as ArmedBear. With the popular breeds there tends to be a lot more indiscriminate breeding. Joe has a lab and so does his brother in law so they breed them cause the other brother in law wants a pup. They don't breed them because of positive characteristics or to continue/strengthen a bloodline, they breed them because it's easy and cheap. Don't matter if Joe's dog has a inherent skin/hip problem or if his brother in law's dog has a behavior problem with an overbite....they don't breed dogs for a living, they're doing it to get a free pup for the other brother in law and to make a little cash on the side. Reputable breeders live for their dogs and their reputation. They only breed dogs that match up well and many times they repeat breed certain pairs because the pups from the previous litter turned out well. The less popular breeds tend to fall into this category cause the average Joe doesn't have easy access to a mate for his dog. Those with rarer breeds tend to do more reasearch also before getting their dog.....that's why they end up with that breed....cause they were looking for certain characteristics....not just a bird dog.

Regardless of what breed you decide on, try to buy you pup from a reputable breeder that will guarantee his pups. Investing a little more in the beginning may be hard, but buying a cheap dog from a neighbor or puppy mill can drain your pocketbook fast if two years down the road it ends up with a inherited defect that needs medical attention or professional training. Also if you truly want a hunting dog, AKC credentials are not necessarily the best. Many of these dogs are bred for a smaller more petite size and for looks, not hunting abilities. FDSB, UKC or NAVHDA background is mostly hunting orientated and those dogs tend to come from true hunting bloodlines. Also try to see BOTH parents to see what your dog will be when it grows up......don't rely on the breeder to tell you what size or what type coat it will have at maturity. Most reputable breeders will have both parents on site or at least have photo's and documents of the other mate.


BTW.....one reason I grew to prefer GWP's over all the other breeds I have owned is because they mature at a very young age. My Labs and Setters were pups till at least the age of two and even then it took them till 4 or 5 to become fully mature mentally. My Drahthaars(5 over the years) at 6 months acted like adult dogs and could be trained/handled as such. None of my GWP's(all were males) showed no more aggression towards other dogs as any of the other breeds I owned.

[ArmedBear]

A couple other things...

No ethical Vizsla breeder will use a dog under two years old for breeding. At two, they can be X-rayed for hip issues, and the results are meaningful.

If a dog's parent was under two, don't get that dog.

There's no such thing as a cheap dog. $1200 is nothing, if the dog will be healthy. You can spend a lot more, very quickly, if not.

We have a free dog, part pit bull and part whatever, born at a local charitable shelter. She's great, a very friendly, athletic, sweet dog who competed in Dock Dogs and gets just about everyone she meets to fall in love with her.

She also has had both knees blow out to the tune of $4000 each, along with urinary tract and intestinal issues that require medication and special food for the rest of her life. We have pet insurance, but it hasn't come near covering everything.

She's a mix, of course, not a purebred. But purebred dogs are not without the same sorts of issues.

A purebred with great bloodlines, from a proud breeder, everything done right and ethically, will be far more likely to avoid such issues. Don't balk at paying a few hundred extra bucks. That's one preliminary vet visit, if the dog has any health problems.

[Shawnee]

Gotta agree with Armed Bear... saving a few hundred bucks on the purchase price of the pup is too often really poor "economy". Like my Dad used to tell me - "Free dogs often aren't worth the price."

:cool:

[ArmedBear]

Seriously, if you just want a pet, there are plenty of affectionate, fun dogs at the local shelter who would love to have homes.

I have no desire to support puppy mills, people who only breed for the money, or unethical breeders of any kind.

Dog breeding has been under legal threat in California, and be assured that this state is just a test case for the animal rights nutcases. You're next.

Unethical breeders, puppy mills, etc. just give the anti-breeding people ammunition to condemn all breeders in the popular perception. Supporting them hurts all of us.

[bps3040]

Labs crossed with many breeds make stable dogs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A black labrador crossed with a collie, border collie, or almost any other intelligent dog, will create a "mutt" of superior hunting skills with few, if any, physical defects. Purebreds are prone to TOO MANY defects from massive inbreeding. The black lab is the key to producing the very best mutts of superior intellence and the desire to perform and learn. Proper Training is the key to perfection with any lab/cross. Hip Displazure is a hideous inbreed disease, so bring on the well-trained MUTTS to aleviate this problem. Many MUTTS are beautiful-looking hunting dogs that actually want to please their masters. cliffy


Best dog I have ever had was a Lab/Weimy mix. Great dog.

[huntershooter]

Brittanys, a pair.
Natural hard chargers in the field.
TOP house dogs.

[airman]

I vote for a vizsla. Of coarse i have 2 of them. They are as birdie as all get out. They even watch the hunting channel and point the animals on there. I also back them with my golden, makes a great hunting combo.

[salthouse]

What about a golden? They don't really shed, the generate carpet. Could not find a better family dog, points naturally. A good breeder is an absolute MUST. Lots of bad genes out there.