[zeeshan]

what type of handgun design is better in .45? 1911 or non 1911?
please mention only one model of unique manufacturer in support of your opinion(based on your comparative experience).

[Black Majik]

Totally subjective topic.

Some like 1911s, others don't. Some take the job better than a 1911, others don't.

But nothing's as customizable as a 1911 platform. Race gun, "tactical" type guns with the black finish and fixed sights, bullseye shooting, you can convert a 1911 to fill almost any and every niche out there.

I chose 1911 since that's what I enjoy most in .45 ACP.

[Snapping Twig]

I've got a Sig P 220 (W. German) and a Kimber Custom CDP II.

I like them equally for different reasons.

If I had only one of them, I'd go for the 1911 as it's MUCH more accurate due to the trigger. Others may not have this issue.

The Sig feeds anything and is compact and easy to disassemble for service with much thought given to it's main use - military and police in cold weather.

I trained with the Gunsite system and am more comfortable using the 1911 for SD.

Since I'm a civilian and not engaged in SD and living in California, I can't carry, so it's all academic in the end.

My nightstand pistol is the Sig as I can keep one in the pipe and decock it, but I've been giving some serious thought to replacing it with the 1911 as it has night sights.

[CountGlockula]

I've shot other styles of .45ACPs, but I always go back to the 1911.

[Thaddeus Jones]

Better for what purpose?

Range use, or distant bullseye shooting? Maybe a 1911.

Stake your life reliability, or duty gun? Sig, HK, S&W get my vote.

[SwampWolf]

I believe the Smith&Wesson Model 945 is the best .45 auto design in terms of reliability. It has been opined that the straight(er) feeding configuration (from magazine to chamber) is a contributing factor in the 945's superb reliability record (at least in mine and for most of those that I've perused at various websites).

"Third Generation" Smiths in general have a well-deserved reputation for extreme reliability.

[Schmidlin]

I personally like the 1911 just because of his history and the gobs of parts for them. Im sure there are better .45s to own that are not of the 1911 design, but that's all Ive shot.

[Deanimator]

M1911. Most other designs are too big for my hand, being D/A types with very long trigger reaches and long grips. The only one I've held that even kind of felt good was the FNP-45.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

I prefer 1911 manufactured by Colt, Springfield Armory or Remington because those are the only brands I've owned. Oh yes, I had a Vega at one time that was a piece of excrement.

The 1911 design has everything you may need or want in a combat, sporting or SD automatic: reliability, durability, repairability, custom-ability, simpicity. IMO, this design will last another hundred years.

Having said that, my last 1911 (Colt GC MkIV Series 80, probably had a dozen different models at one time) was sold in February.

Strictly a .357/38 wheelgunner these days. Partly to simplify/consolidate calibers and partly wanting to spend range time shooting, not chasing brass.

If ever I ever get another bottom feeder, it will definitely be a .45 acp 1911.

[kcshooter]

"Better" is purely subjective. There is no frame of reference for comparison here.

For me, there is nothing better than a 1911. Every one of mine is completely reliable and feeds the hydrashok or hst bullets I carry in it flawlessly. I've got 7. I carry 3 regularly and have a 4th that's a dedicated nightstand gun. All are 45acp. I trust my life to each of them. My Colt is over 10k rounds now. It's been rebuilt (mostly for the fun of it) and is still going strong.

Someone will be along shortly to tell you how every one they've ever seen won't feed or run.

[weisse52]

"Better" is purely subjective.

Yes, but better for what..


But I still think the 1911 is better....

[RPCVYemen]

"Better" is purely subjective.

What I think is more true is that in order to fairly judge a design, you have understand the goals of the design.

As a metallic bullseye or bear hunting pistol, it's a pretty poor design.

As a defensive weapon in a day of limited magazine capacity, it's a very good design.

Mike

[KBintheSLC]

I agree on the subjective part... A lot of folks love 1911's for a lot of good reasons. There are some great builds out there. However, I never got comfortable with one. I jumped from DA/SA revolvers in the early days, straight to Glocks in more recent years. I could never get used to an SAO gun with a safety. Thats why the 1911 never worked for me. However, to say it is better/worse is like saying "which flavor of ice cream is better, vanilla or chocolate".

[ArchAngelCD]

Since the only .45 ACP I own is a Springfield 1911A1 I'll have to go with the 1911 design. Hey, Mr. Browning knew what he was doing and that's proven by his design lasting 100 years. (and still going strong)

[EHL]

1911 and 45acp are like two peas in a pod. Everything else is an imitation of this match made in heaven.

[possum]

this is a personal question, and personaly for me i believe that the best .45acp platform is in a 1911.

[benderx4]

I used to own four different 1911 platforms ranging from a SA GI to a Colt Defender and Series 70, finally to a DW PM7. Loved them all, especially the Defender and the PM7. (Okay, I hated the SA GI)

Today, in 45acp, I own a HK USPc45, a HK45, a HK Mark23 SOCOM, and a SW Model 625JM. The 1911s are all gone. Why?

Hard to explain. But for me, the HKs/revolver are more fun to shoot, more accurate to shoot, and equal or better the shot count. (Except for the revolver.) Yea, the triggers aren't quite as good, but in the SW 625, and the HK45, they are darn close.

One of these days, I know I'll end up with a Les Baer or Wilson Combat, just a matter of time, but for now, I'm pretty happy with my choices.

[Coyote3855]

Non 1911. Single Action Army.

[oneounceload]

S&W revolver......

no need to worry about magazine issues

[SubSolar]

Depends what you are talking about. If you are talking about trigger, thinness, accuracy and looks, the 1911 is where it's at. But if you want reliability, especially in bad conditions or when neglected, the other more modern .45's will be better. They are also cheaper and won't need maintenance such as checking extractor tension and what not. There's a reason why most cops will carry a non-1911 like a Glock and why most target shooters/competitors will shoot a 1911.

[kitsapcharly]

I'd like to put in a word for the XD-45c from Springfield Armory. Mine has the 4" barrel. I seem to be more accurate with it than with any other pistol. Grip angle is copied from 1911 and it's natural pointing grip design just fits me and most other people who've tried one.
This "c" version(compact) has a short grip that uses a 10-round magazine and a longer 13-round mag with a grip extension also comes with it so it's like a service model and a CCW gun all in one. These are very versatile for all sorts of uses.
They also make 9MM and 40 short and weak and have various sizes.
The trigger action is one of those that isn't exactly easily described as single or double but is very nice...about 5 or 6 pounds from the factory. I can only say I love this gun!!
Like the 1911 many people modify sights, springs, etc. for various reasons both real and imagined but nobody ever seems to modify the grip at all and trigger mods are mainly for competitive shooting. That should tell you something. These guns are also becoming increasingly popular with police despite no aggressive marketing or big discounts. They sell on merit.
I also just tried a new EAA Witness (Tafoglio made) in 22/45 convertible that I bought mainly to use as a 22 practice piece for larger guns, ie, my XD-45. Tried just once through each mag in the45 before switching to 22 so this is very preliminary but it seems like a very nice gun and seems very well made. It also has a grip very similar to the XD and can be used cocked and locked like a 1911 or DA/SA if you want. Trigger is pretty good in DA and seemed very nice in single...barely broken in yet. I like it well but this is tentative. Not enough experience to recommend it in good conscience. That takes more time and shooting.
FWIW:)

[Chuck Spears]

Non-1911. The new plastic pistols just have it beat all around except for looks. You used to be able to claim accuracy superiority with the 1911 but the quality plastics (XD, Glock, FNP, USP) I've shot were all just as accurate. Magazine capacity is much better with the newer designs. Sure they make double stack 1911's but they feel awkward in my hand. Then you have the ease of breakdown and reassembly. I can field strip and reassemble my XD blindfolded and in a snap. Reliability would have to go with the new plastics as well. I've had quality 1911's (Kimber, Springfield) malfunction much more often than the plastics I've owned and shot. The 1911 is a fine platform and I even own a couple that I really like but it's an old design. It works but the newer stuff works better. Forgot to mention price tag. A quality plastic costs about half as much as a quality 1911. Another bonus.

[kcshooter]

There's a reason why most cops will carry a non-1911 like a Glock Because they are forbidden to carry SAO sidearms.

There's also a reason the elite forces such as MEU, HRT, and SWAT carry a 1911, and not plastic.

For those who are seriously likely to use a sidearm, the 1911 keeps being their choice. If the newer plastic designs were really all that much better, they would probably have realized it by now, don'tcha think?

[Chuck Spears]

There's also a reason the elite forces such as MEU, HRT, and SWAT carry a 1911, and not plastic.

Probably a reason why the US Special Operation Command uses a plastic piece (HK Mark 23) too. You could safely consider them an elite force. Modern defense contracts are switching over to the plastics more and more. The standard Beretta M9 is most likely going to be replaced with a plastic piece very soon as well. A large number of units already use plastic SIG pieces. Times change. In the age where technological advancements occur more rapidly than ever, you can't expect a century old design to hold for too much longer. The 1911 works but newer designs match its capabilities with a cheaper more simple package.

[hemiram]

Personally, and that's the only answer that means anything in this thread, I have to say a non 1911. I don't like the grip at all, and don't really feel comfortable betting my life on it working 100%, and I also feel they are insanely overpriced. if I had to pick a .45ACP, it would probably be a CZ 97B, or what I already own, it's cheaper equivalent, a EAA Witness full size, closely followed by a whole bunch of others, none of them a 1911.

[russcoh]

If you mean more reliable by better, off the shelf most things such as Glock 21's and 30's, Springfield XD's will be more reliable, partially due to a nearly non existant break in period. A 1911 really needs to be broken in, as an example a Kimber Stainless II has a 500-600 round break in period (according to Kimber). Really depends what you need it for, and if you're concerned about weight, strength, capacity, etc.

[kmbrman]

That really depends on a shooters level of training. Precise shot placement is easier with the 1911 ,because of the trigger, much lighter usually, and weight ,a 5 inch can weigh 40 oz, loaded . But in fast, no time to think, as in Police work, the plastic gun is more fool proof and reliable, all things considered, and as in the Glock for instance , will be stone cold reliable with more rounds also. Most plastic guns are really simple and in a crisis ,simple is better.

[gunseller2]

A good 1911...after a 100 years the good guys are still going into harm's way with them. As one my favorite comedians said "there's your sign".

[hemiram]

If any of the nearly dozen high $$$ 1911's a friend of mine owns would be as reliable as my EAA Witness, or his CZ97B, I might agree with you. But since they aren't, I will have to disagree.

[Defensory]

Posted by Chuck Spears:
The standard Beretta M9 is most likely going to be replaced with a plastic piece very soon as well.

Got a credible source on that?

I'm not a big fan of the Beretta, nor do I own one.

However, I am aware that the U.S. Military signed a contract with Beretta in 2006, for an additional 70,000 M9's.

Based on that substantial figure, I don't think the M9's will be phased out "very soon".

[Defensory]

The alleged demise of the M1911A1 is greatly exaggerated. It's far from "obsolete".

A partial list of the elite military and law enforcement units that CURRENTLY use the M1911A1:

LAPD SWAT Team
LAPD Special Investigation Section
FBI Hostage Rescue Team
FBI Regional SWAT Teams
Delta Force
Marine Corps Force Recon

If it's good enough for the above elite units, it's good enough for me. ;)

[LongRider]

I enjoy the 1911 more. No other handgun is more accurate attractive customizable and accurate gun then the 1911. But for daily carry I prefer the XD.45 for its lack of manual safeties hi cap double stack magazines, reliability, over all durability and ruggedness

[BryanP]

I currently own three different .45 pistols. An older SIG P220, a Springfield XD45, and an RIA "Tactical" :rolleyes: 1911. All three have been reliable and accurate. Personally, I shoot the XD the best. By that measure, for me the XD is "best." I'm keeping the others though.

[kcshooter]

If any of the nearly dozen high $$$ 1911's a friend of mine owns would be as reliable as my EAA Witness, or his CZ97B, I might agree with you. But since they aren't, I will have to disagree.What "high end" 1911's does he own, and how are they unreliable?
I have mostly "middle-end" 1911's, a few "low-end", and they are all dead reliable.

[Stevie-Ray]

For me, nothing beats the 1911 in .45 ACP. It is my holy grail.

[Rembrandt]

what type of handgun design is better in .45? 1911 or non 1911?
please mention only one model of unique manufacturer in support of your opinion(based on your comparative experience).

Linkless....1911 design

[RPCVYemen]

Non 1911. Single Action Army.

I was about to say Ruger Blackhawk, but at least both you and I are talking about the real 45 - if ain't an LC, it's too short. :)

Mike

[loop]

I have to toss out my answer:

Who cares?

[mauiglide]

I went with Sig Sauer P220R for my .45 ACP handgun needs.

[foghornl]

Have a Ruger P-90 & 2 Springfield Armory 1911's.

While I like the 1 extra round in the Ruger, the 1911 is slimmer..a bit easier to carry.

Shot a couple of Glocks and the Springfield XD series...those don't "fit" me well.

[MCgunner]

1911s suck, been there, done that. You're Ruger, if it's like mine, will feed anything and shoot 1" groups at 25 yards. My 2 1911s were ball only, jamamatics on anything else and while one would shoot 2.5" at 25, the other was more like 4". Tighten up a 1911 and reliability can drop from what is already pretty dismal. I had those things ported, polished, slicked up and wiped down, ball only. They're designed for ball and that's what they feed.

Me, I kept the Ruger. Carries fine in a Milt Sparks Summer Special and is lighter than any all steel full size 1911 by a considerable bit. I mostly pocket carry smaller guns, though. 1911s and other similar size guns work fine on a belt up north in the snow. Down here, they are NOT CCW choices for most folks.

I don't know, perhaps a 6,000 dollar Les Bauer or something is a fine 1911, but nothing out there in the Ruger's price range is even close. Keep your RIAs and AMTs AOs and other crap. For a little more money, Sig or CZ perhaps.

[kcshooter]

1911s suck, been there, done that. You're Ruger, if it's like mine, will feed anything and shoot 1" groups at 25 yards. My 2 1911s were ball only, jamamatics on anything else and while one would shoot 2.5" at 25, the other was more like 4". Tighten up a 1911 and reliability can drop from what is already pretty dismal. I had those things ported, polished, slicked up and wiped down, ball only. They're designed for ball and that's what they feed.Ha! What a ridiculous statement.
Every one of my half-dozen 1911's feed hydrashok and hst jhp's, lswc, lrn, fmj, anything. None of them have had extensive work, and every one was under $1000. I always wonder about people who can't get a 1911 to run right. If you can shoot a 1" group at 25 yards, why can't you get a 1911 to feed?

[MCgunner]

If you can shoot a 1" group at 25 yards, why can't you get a 1911 to feed?

Cause both were junk. I washed my hands of cheap 1911s and never looked back. I don't like 'em, never will, much prefer a DA gun. Shoot what you like, but don't push that crap on me! There are MUCH better guns out there that are more accurate and reliable. We've improved a lot on the automatic in 100 years. Still use the same mechanism pretty much, but now it works better.

My best 1911 would get about 2.5" groups. That's okay, but 1" groups are better. That means, likely, the gun shoots better than me and for 300 bucks at the time of purchase. I'll probably never know that for sure as I can't justify the cost of a ransom rest just to test that. But, a gun that shoots that good has my respect and the fact that it feeds everything, well.......

I'm glad you like your 1911s and got lucky. :D For a grand, if I had that for an auto pistol, I'd be lookin' at Sigs and CZs, personally. Actually, CZs are pretty danged reasonably priced. There are plenty of choices for those of us who are good enough to shoot a DA accurately.

Actually, there's a reason the 1911 runs with ball, that's what it was designed for....DUH. I bad mouth 'em, but I understand the reasons, the high angle of attack on the feed ramp, the double ramp (frame to barrel transition), and such. The 1911 was never intended for Speer Flying Ashtrays and most won't feed 'em. Many more modern designs will. I really got nothin' against 1911s, just the two I had, LOL! I had to have that AMT worked on to get it to feed at all. Well, it was feeding, just not extracting out of the box. POS. I finally got it to work after a couple hundred bucks, but it still wouldn't feed many hollowpoints, was very OAL dependent. I had the Auto Ordinance ported and polished to no avail, too. Money flushed down the drain. Only thing I've done to the Ruger is put Hogues on it. It finally broke a magazine catch spring after 16 years of shooting which I replaced the other day. Ruger sent one no charge.:D

[bwavec]

The 1911 is the venerable design in .45acp. 100 years from now you will likely have trouble finding parts for your HK, Sig, M&P, etc....but I can bet there will still be plenty of 1911 parts to be found. It is a design (love it or not) that is not going away. There is too much that you can do with it, and too many produced for it to fade away quietly.

That said, I chose the HK USP45 and USP45 Compact as my personal firearms in a life or death situation. They have been abused, fired, not cleaned, fired some more, still not cleaned and then abused a bit more.....and never have they failed to go bang when the trigger was pulled (assuming it was actually loaded, ;) ). I look at them as a positive evolution of the 1911 design.

[kcshooter]

I'm glad you like your 1911s and got luckyIt ain't luck.

[ljnowell]

Yes and yes. I love my 1911 but I wont give up my fantastic plastic for nothin'.

http://i334.photobucket.com/albums/m417/ljnowell/pictures72008183.jpg

[S&Wfan]

What's the most reliable and accurate .45ACP?

A moon-clipped S&W Model 625 revolver or, my favorite, my custom Model 25-2 target revolver with its long target barrel chopped to a scant 3 1/4."

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/282194/2256768new25-2plusmoonclips-edited.jpg


Also, I'm sure it would be quite a deterrent when a BG looked down the barrel of a big azzzz N-frame with all those huge holes of that S&W .45ACP revolver . . . especially when loaded with those nasty-looking Speer "Flying Ashtray" hollowpoints!!!

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/363/363373/folders/282194/22698211.JPG

[yeti]

Chocolate ice cream, by a long shot, never could get that vanilla stuff to feed properly. Vanilla is just to plasticy for my taste.:evil:

Oh, 1911's, I only have 3 right now, but those 3 have been perfect since round 1. Did have an AMT Hardballer, that thing never ran. Hey, it was made in California, what do you expect?:neener:

[the_fallguy]

My HK45C has my vote. Excellent reliability, and very controllable (and I find the ergonomics very impressive, but that is fairly subjective). I can shoot 1911's pretty well, and I know several people who swear by them. Oddly, as much as they like them, I can't recall a single friend that owns a 1911 that hasn't had to have parts replaced or have work done on them for reliability reasons.

I think the infatuation many have with the 1911 pistols is more romantic in nature than most would like to admit. It is a great gun with a rich history, but I believe there are other more practical options available for serious carry in this day and age, feelings aside.

If anyone doesn't agree with me, that's OK. When it cones down to it, my life and the lives of those I protect may someday depend on the tools I choose to carry. Too that end, I will choose the tool I deem best for the job, regardless of what others may think. I expect no less from all of you (whether you choose a 1911 or some other pistol). If I look at the situation honestly, I think mindset, tactics and skill at arms all take precedence over the specific tools used in an altercation anyhow.

[RX-178]

The thing that hasn't been mentioned enough in this thread, is that most 'high end' 1911s were not built to be the most reliable pistols on the planet. They were built to be accurate, and to handle typical competition-loaded ammunition. Everything else was traded off to some degree or another.

As for the 'combat-custom' high end 1911s... well, on that front, I just can't think of a practical reason to dump $2500 into a 1911 that isn't a competition gun. They're probably DANGED reliable, but chances are your $600 STI spartan is going to be also, and if you can afford the $2500, you can also afford just about any other .45 on the face of the planet that's going to be as reliable, or moreso.

There's a lot of subjective questions to be answered before deciding on what .45 platform is 'better'. From the perspective of weapon quality and design, I find my USP45 Tactical very hard to beat. But it costs over $1000, and everyone's heard about HK's customer service (although I've never had to attempt sending the weapon in for service. Lucky me).

Glock 21s are no more expensive than affordable 1911s, and they hold more ammunition. Lots of people also find their triggers hard to get used to, and find the grip design uncomfortable. And more importantly than that, Glocks are impossible to carry in condition one, which is a major consideration for many shooters who practice that.

Nowadays there's a lot more choices too. XD 45, M&P 45, PX4 45, FNP 45, and all for around the same price point (or less) than a basic 1911.

All of these 'outperform' a 1911, on paper (the FNP 45 can even be carried condition one). Higher magazine capacity, a light rail for those of us that use weapon lights, whatever other features that these respective weapons have over each other.

It's easy to say 'well, if you're going to get a .45 you might as well make it a 1911', and it's equally easy to say 'well, if you're going to get a .45 you might as well get something that holds 12+ rounds instead of 7'.

In the end, it really comes down to what feels better for you, as an individual shooter. What feels better in your hand? Which one do you find more comfortable to shoot? Which one do you find easier to field strip and clean? Can you find a suitable holster for this weapon? Or would you just plain prefer to have a 1911 rather than a soulless polymer 'utility gun' (I've certainly heard that one more than once myself)?

For the general price point of $600, there's LOTS of choices for a .45 pistol. If you go higher than that, even more choices open up. Some of these are going to be perfect for some people, and just wrong for others.

It just seems to be that more people find 1911s perfect than they do these others. :D

[hemiram]

Quote:
If any of the nearly dozen high $$$ 1911's a friend of mine owns would be as reliable as my EAA Witness, or his CZ97B, I might agree with you. But since they aren't, I will have to disagree.

What "high end" 1911's does he own, and how are they unreliable?
I have mostly "middle-end" 1911's, a few "low-end", and they are all dead reliable.

he had about 14-15 at one time, Kimbers, Baers, an couple of older high end ones that he's had for decades ( I don't remember all the names on them anymore, as I'm not a 1911 fanboi :D), both in full size and commander sizes, along with some customized Colts, in both sizes too. They are unreliable because they rarely will run an entire mag repeatedly without at least on FTF or stovepipe. They do sometimes go though a second mag, but it's a rare thing, and way too often, there's a problem on every mag. He used to make remarks about "POS cheap guns", but when my "junk" EAA Witness went through about 10 mags with zero malfunctions, right out of the box, and his brother's CZ97B did the same thing, it's hard for him to call them junk anymore. He's slowly selling off most of his 1911's and has broadened his choices when picking up replacements.

[BlindJustice]

Well, Hmiriam if "your Friend" is selling em off how about a
bit of connect info.?

Nothing like an ill defined "Poll" to bring out the Internet BS
of knocking down everything or whatever somone does not choose
to triumph their own choice.... blah....

Randall

[BlindJustice]

Better in .45

Does the O.P. mean .45 ACP or some other cartridge?

Better in terms of what?

and then list 20 different sub areas for handguns in terms
of handling, mainetenance, customer service, for a given make,
accuracy, relilability, and in what context is the handgun to
be used?

Hey, you're all right, no body is wrong....

FOR ME

I like the 1911 - It's what I carried on Duty in the USN
30+ years ago and it's manual of arms is ingrained in the ol'lizard
brain. I also cut my teeth on a S&W Model 18 .22 LR revolver
in my teens, so it isn't too much of a reach for y'all to figure out
I have a

S&W 1911 full size with some mods to my taste
as well as a
S&W 625 5" Bbl. with the S&W PC Master Revolver
Action Job - SA trigger pull second to none

SOme days at the range the 1911 shoots better, other
days the 625 wins the day FOR ME.

ALso thinking about a CZ 97B for the DA/SA in .45 ACP

The SHeriffs in my County carry Kimber 1911s, and the owner
of the target range I go to always has a S&W MOdel 22 on his
belt. huh.

Randall

[BlindJustice]

In .45 COlt - hey a Colt SAA Ask John Wayne

In a S&W N Frame .45 ACP with full moon clips or
.45 AUto RIm w/o the clips. Can load them hotter and
heavier bullets as well

Stupid title

R-

[JT in VA]

Sig 220

[BlindJustice]

IF the O.P. meant .45 ACP

What an adaptable cartridge for a myriad of
platforms, from the 1911 and quickly adapted
to the Revolver M1917, and all that have followed
with it's big bore, short case and low pressure it
just gets the job done for what it was designed for
2 legged opposition.... and other in huntin light to
medium game as well.

The better platform in .45 ACP is the one that works
for the user be it semi-auto or revolver. Many other
cartridges, it's either one or the other not so with the
.45 ACP.

Hey, it even works in the EAA Witness right ?

Randall
.

[hemiram]

In my Witness, it works very very well! That thing never has a problem, with almost 1500 rounds through it, it stovepiped once, and that was due to a deformed case. Except for that one failure, it's been as perfect as I could possibly have hoped for. Best $350 on a .45 ACP gun I ever spent!