Can APS and THR play nice?


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shdwfx
September 5, 2008, 09:08 AM
I understand the history of political discussion on The High Road (THR) and the need for Armed Polite Society (APS).

The problem is, APS gets very little exposure compared to THR. I think the upper right corner link and constant promotion by moderators fall short of attracting a community on APS for two reasons.


THR and APS fulfill complementary roles but do not share a common user database. This is a problem because...
Many many interesting (but off topic) threads are locked on THR. The mods correctly point out the topic should be on APS and direct participants to take the discussion there. But how? There is no easy way to migrate a discussion from THR to APS.

What happens is, valuable discussions die on the vine and the participants (grudgingly) disburse.

A zealous commenter might painstakingly reconstruct a locked thread in APS and individually invite all the participants to the new thread. But, that is unsatisfactory since all the lurkers (and potential contributors) are left out and few even have an APS account, drastically narrowing the potential audience.

It's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, I know.

I'm sure if the two were more integrated, APS could become a vibrant venue for Political and Constitutional law discussions that are tangential (but important) to our primary 2nd Ammendment concerns.

Assuming this integration would even be a desirable goal...

The largest barrier to any integration is that the two forums are powered by different forum software (why is that?). But, I'm not sure that it is reasonable in terms of money and effort to write the necessary admin tools to integrate the two and allow easy migration of threads and syncing of user databases.

The other option would be to create a top-level THR forum (Armed Polite Society) that is governed by the same self-moderation policy as APS. There are even ways to mask/redirect URLs so that typing "armedpolitesociety.com" in the address bar would take visitors to that forum if that's important.

Anyway, I would love to see APS or an APS-like forum area get some traction. These are just some observations and ideas that could facilitate that.

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TimboKhan
September 5, 2008, 09:32 AM
Assuming this integration would even be a desirable goal...

It is not. APS is a sister site, and it's size and number of participants have no bearing on THR.


The other option would be to create a top-level THR forum (Armed Polite Society) that is governed by the same self-moderation policy as APS.

I guess, but then your just creating a political forum. This isn't going to happen.


The mods correctly point out the topic should be on APS and direct participants to take the discussion there. But how? There is no easy way to migrate a discussion from THR to APS.

You just start a new thread. If you don't feel like typing your original post over, copy and paste.

shdwfx
September 5, 2008, 09:42 AM
APS is a sister site, and it's size and number of participants have no bearing on THR.
As it is now, yes. But to ignore the growth potential in tapping THR's membership might be short-sighted.

then your just creating a political forum. This isn't going to happen.
I understand the aversion to a Political forum on THR, and that may not be the way to go if in implementation there isn't enough of a distinction.

You just start a new thread. If you don't feel like typing your original post over, copy and paste.
I appreciate the (in)efficiencies of C-&-P, but you still lose the original participants and readers. It's not even possible to notify the audience where the discussion moved once the thread is locked.

It would just be nice to see APS grow, and tapping the THR population is one way to do that.
There clearly is a desire to participate in an APS-like forum as evidenced by the frequently locked threads in Activism, Legal, and General.
So then we have to ask why is APS not utilized to the extent it was intended?

These are just some ideas to bridge the gap.

shdwfx
September 5, 2008, 09:55 AM
Would it be possible for the original poster to add a final comment to a locked thread, directing traffic to a thread on APS?

Even if this process was entirely manual, it would be an improvement. Right now, there is no way to direct others to a continued discussion other than the generic "see APS".

ilbob
September 5, 2008, 10:04 AM
I have tried a couple times to get people to go to APS, even starting threads here and leaving a link to a thread I started at APS. No one from THR showed up.

APS isn't self moderated. It has at least as much per capita, if not more, moderation going on as THR. Ironically, one topic that gets heavy moderation is any topic about THR. Discussion of THR is all but banned there.

A lot of people are not interested in being on multiple forums. It is just too time consuming.

BobCat
September 5, 2008, 10:13 AM
shdwfx,

At one time there was a subforum on THR called The Round Table, such as you suggest - for political and other non-fiearms discussions.

For one reason or another it morphed into APS and the Round Table was closed on THR.

I do not know all the history or details, but what you are suggesting has been tried on THR and lead to friction, and the creation of APS as a separate entity.

I've been to APS and do not care for it. I read on THR and only post infrequently.

Maybe one of the Moderators or someone more intimately involved with the decision to close Round Table and create APS will fill in the details. If they choose not to, they have their reasons.

To keep this firearm-related: After years of buying guns and not selling many (a mini-14 that was not very accurate is the only one I can think of right now), it seems that rather than wanting more guns, I just want to go to the range to shoot and enjoy the ones I have. Is that a sign of old age? I find myself shooting .22 more than any other caliber - is it ammo cost or getting back to basics?

ilbob
September 5, 2008, 10:26 AM
I find myself shooting .22 more than any other caliber - is it ammo cost or getting back to basics?Yes. :)

shdwfx
September 5, 2008, 10:50 AM
I too don't enjoy the APS crowd as much as THR. The mods always say, "go to APS", but it's not the same, it's often more vulgar (e.g. I've seen people get away with crude language about women), and I'd much rather hear the opinions of my THR stablemates.

If there were a way to easily attract THR-caliber folk to APS, my opinion of the place would change. I don't think I'm alone.


At one time there was a subforum on THR called The Round Table,


I know. I'm sure the admins had some reason for migrating it. But, it seems to me that having two separate sections governed by different sets of rules is no more of a pain for the mods than the way it is now - but that's me.

For whatever reason, we probably won't get that back. That's fine - I don't work here or mod so there must be reasons. Ok.

I have tried a couple times to get people to go to APS, even starting threads here and leaving a link to a thread I started at APS. No one from THR showed up.
...
A lot of people are not interested in being on multiple forums. It is just too time consuming.

Which is why a unified user database would solve that. A broader audience means more ideas and better discussions.

But as it is now, you can't even add an APS link when the mods shut down an "off-topic" thread...

Mal H
September 5, 2008, 11:22 AM
Would it be possible for the original poster to add a final comment to a locked thread, directing traffic to a thread on APS?I can answer that one, but can't add much on any of the other questions and comments. APS is not in my bailiwick.

PM or email most any moderator and they will be glad to add your APS link to a closing post in a locked thread. That is assuming, of course, that the thread itself is worthy of redirection.

ilbob
September 5, 2008, 11:49 AM
Which is why a unified user database would solve that. A broader audience means more ideas and better discussions.
A few people tossed off THR have posted at APS, so I am not sure a unified user database is the answer.

APS is the odd stepchild of THR. It is not focused around firearms at all, although many who post there have an interest in firearms, so many posts at least obliquely are about firearms.

shdwfx
September 5, 2008, 12:11 PM
Thanks Mal H. That's good to know and I'll try that in the future.


@ilbob
There are also probably a number of IDs over on APS that already match THR IDs but are for a different real person. The concept is certainly less than perfect and not without problems.

RNB65
September 5, 2008, 06:37 PM
I'd much rather have a THR folder dedicated to NFA items than folders for either political or general discussion.

TimboKhan
September 5, 2008, 07:50 PM
I'd much rather have a THR folder dedicated to NFA items than folders for either political or general discussion.

Not going to happen.


I know. I'm sure the admins had some reason for migrating it. But, it seems to me that having two separate sections governed by different sets of rules is no more of a pain for the mods than the way it is now - but that's me.


I think what you are not understanding is that it has been tried, and it has failed. Even some posters who are normally well spoken and polite in their responses to firearm threads become flame-throwing trolls in political ones. This is one reason why political threads get shut down tout suite now. It may start civil, but it almost assuredly will not end that way. Political threads are very, very predictable on how they degenerate into slop.

strat81
September 5, 2008, 10:30 PM
Personally, when politics left THR, I went to another gun forum for my fix. It also has a general/non-firearm forum.

Depending on the firearm topic, I'll post it here or at the other site since each site has a distinct character and knowledge base.

But for non-firearm talk, it's not worth visiting yet another website (i.e, APS). I've lurked there, and it just wasn't doing it for me.

THR still rocks and is the website I recommend for newbies and non-gun people.

cliffy
September 5, 2008, 10:46 PM
THR allows tangents that often teach us new IDEAS. TOO Much FOCUS on specific subjects quell and often end what's pertinent. I learned that often on the last Forum I really liked in the beginning. Also when one voice dominates a forum, interest drops-off sharply. Never be afraid to sound "STUPID" regarding a question or comment. "TRUE STUPIDITY" comes from occasional "authoritive" answers, not ever from serious questions. cliffy

Ex-MA Hole
September 7, 2008, 05:35 AM
Good morning Gentlemen,

Shadowfox, please fee free to hang your hat over at APS. From what I understand, the RT closed here primarily due to the fact that some of the topics that were showing up did not cast "gunners" in a positive light.

Oleg decided, through a lot of brainstorming, that closing RT here, and reopening it over there would keep this as a 2A site, and over there as the RT...

APS is a pretty neat place. Is it perfect? No, no place ever is. A lot of people like to play the "would've, should've game".

There is a small hadful of mods that work really hard at keeping it as sane as possible.

You see something that strikes you as odd, PM one of the mods, or hit the "post reply" button.

The only time those pesky mods don't listen is if you show up, start a pissing match, then whine when people fire back...

You are going to have a small handful of jackasses, you get that on every forum.

As far as missing insults towards women, they try to keep that down. That and racism, anti this, anti that...keep in mind, there are a small handful of mods, who all work full time and have families and a social life, or children, which prevents a social life...

As a rule, the mods are pretty good, well, except for the Ex-MA Hole guy, he's kind of out there. But, hey, no one's perfect.

Lone_Gunman
September 8, 2008, 04:33 PM
I think the problem with the old L&P forum was that it was overmoderated in an attempt to get people to play nice.

As for APS, so few people go there, its pretty pointless.

JohnBT
September 8, 2008, 04:42 PM
I think it was undermoderated.

John

Ex-MA Hole
September 9, 2008, 07:42 PM
Reading the last two posts, do y'all now understand the fact that the mods will NEVER win?

TimboKhan
September 10, 2008, 11:17 PM
I think the problem with the old L&P forum was that it was overmoderated in an attempt to get people to play nice

Well, if this is true, then you have fully illustrated why it was such a PITA. Mods had to keep constant vigil to keep it civil, and still failed.


I think it was undermoderated.

If this is true, then basically what you are saying is that the mods should have kept constant vigil to keep it civil.

Regardless of whether you fall into the over or under moderated camp, you have both illustrated the core reason why it failed: People cannot seem to keep political discussions civil on the internet. THR is a forum for good, civil, family-friendly discussion, and politics simply degrade that experience. Incidentally, this is also why religion threads are generally shut down almost immediately.

Devonai
September 10, 2008, 11:26 PM
The mods always say, "go to APS", but it's not the same, it's often more vulgar...

Oh, yeah?

(throws bottlecaps and peanut shells at Shadowfax)

Ex-MA Hole
September 11, 2008, 06:17 PM
Down boy, We'll sick Fistful on 'im.....

mbs357
September 11, 2008, 07:46 PM
Yea but APS doesn't want to attract any more people.
We're happy with the bunch of crazies we already have.

dasmi
September 25, 2008, 02:45 PM
Yes, perhaps us APS residents don't want a massive influx of the unwashed THR masses.

Elza
September 25, 2008, 07:52 PM
Lone_Gunman: I think the problem with the old L&P forum was that it was overmoderated JohnBT: I think it was undermoderated. My opinion is that it was not uniformly moderated. What one mod might see as OK another does not. Iíve seen threads where one mod was taking an active part and another comes along and closes it. It sends mixed messages as to what the actual boundaries are.

scout26
October 4, 2008, 02:35 PM
Yes, perhaps us APS residents don't want a massive influx of the unwashed THR masses.

I think what some people fail to understand is that most of us who hangout over at APS view it as the kinda like the "back porch" of THR. It's where the big people go to have a cold one and discuss things that maybe the youngin's or those of a more sensitive nature don't need to hear.

THR is public face of responsible firearms ownership. APS is place to let your hair down and discuss anything and everything that isn't gun related. It's mostly populated by mature people with a somewhat off-beat sense of humor who realize that Fistful is to blame for everything wrong in the world.

It has it's own vibe that is completely different from THR's more serious mission. Some people like it, others don't. I was a member there from the beginning but it's only been within the last two years or so that I've really become active.

Lots of the same people from THR migrated over there, it seems there comes a time when you hit an All Guns All The Time/.45 vs 9mm/AK vs AR/870 vs 500 overload and head over to APS.

Like I said it's got it's own feel/vibe/groove. Go lurk for a while, get a feel for the place, then burn some floppies and then jump right in. Irwin loves to smack people around with the banstick. :D

modifiedbrowning
October 4, 2008, 07:44 PM
Irwin loves to smack people around with the banstick.

As long as he doesn't use the glowing schwerk.

hso
October 5, 2008, 01:19 AM
Ok, APS is a separate website and it's not very good form to discuss other sites.

See Oleg's post at http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=398028 asking everyone to put quit stirring the pot.

If you enjoyed reading about "Can APS and THR play nice?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!