Non-citizen wants to purchase firearm in Texas...help please.


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King Red
September 6, 2008, 01:55 AM
I have a coworker (registered nurse with no criminal history) who has become interested in purchasing a handgun for range/defense use.

He is originally from the Phillipines and has been here in Texas a little less than 2 years. He is not a citizen but he has a passport and visa (I don't know if that's what they call a green card or not).

So, can he walk into a gunshop and purchase a firearm or will there be all kinds of red tape to wade through? Also I mentioned to him that if he was not able to purchase a firearm at an FFL, he could probably buy one at a gunshow from a individual seller. Is that sound advice or ill-conceived?

Any help would be appreciated. I'm going to recommend the Ruger GP 100 to him so he can learn with .38Sp, but have the .357 option also. Also the single action capability will make it easier for him to shoot in the beginning.

Any help with these laws would be appreciated.

Thanks!!

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Duke Junior
September 6, 2008, 02:17 AM
Read this:

http://volokh.com/posts/1218687757.shtml

Texas 1876: “Every citizen shall have the right to keep and
bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the
Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of
arms, with a view to prevent crime.”70
1868: “Every person shall have the right to keep and bear
arms, in the lawful defence of himself or the State, under such
regulations as the legislature may prescribe.”71
1845: “Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear
arms, in the lawful defence of himself or the State.”72
1836: “Every citizen shall have the right to bear arms in
defence of himself and the republic. The military shall at all
times and in all cases be subordinate to the civil power.”73

Very interesting.IANAL.Many here are and will interpret.

RNB65
September 6, 2008, 02:48 AM
This has been discussed in detail in the past. I believe the consensus opinion was that if the person has a permanent resident visa (green card), they can buy guns the same as a citizen. People on temporary visas (no green card) cannot. It will all depend on his visa status as to whether he can purchase and/or possess a firearm.

MD_Willington
September 6, 2008, 02:57 AM
Non-Immigrant VS Immigrant Alien

aka

Non-permanent VS Permanent resident

While there are provisions for non permanent aliens using/obtaining firearms, generally they are forbidden from attaining firearms.

rondog
September 6, 2008, 03:26 AM
Get a used one from a private seller, like from a newspaper ad or Pennysaver-type paper?

NC Dave
September 6, 2008, 08:43 AM
I doubt that he has a green card. He has not been here long enough. Also, given all the paperwork you have to fill out, the bucks you have to pay, and the hoops you have to jump though, he would know if he had a green card.

NC Dave
September 6, 2008, 08:45 AM
Get a used one from a private seller, like from a newspaper ad or Pennysaver-type paper?

Not to go too far off-topic, but...

The gun-grabbers just love it when people on our side publicly make suggestions on how to skirt the law! :fire:

SCKimberFan
September 6, 2008, 09:41 AM
Not off-topic at all. Thanks for pointing it out.

cambeul41
September 6, 2008, 10:16 AM
Walk into a gun store or two and ask -- preferably with visa in hand.

Green Card info http://tinyurl.com/tplxt

orionengnr
September 6, 2008, 10:21 AM
There is a question on the 4473 that addresses this IIRC...anyone have one handy?

Talk to an FFL. Do it legally or don't do it.

JImbothefiveth
September 6, 2008, 10:22 AM
If it's illegal for him to buy it at gun store, isn't it also illegal for him to buy it at a gun show?:scrutiny:

nalioth
September 6, 2008, 10:31 AM
Also the single action capability will make it easier for him to shoot in the beginning. Residential qualifications aside, the above is not a good idea (for training anyone).

TexasRifleman
September 6, 2008, 10:35 AM
There is a question on the 4473 that addresses this IIRC...anyone have one handy

Here's a scan of one.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/

BigRobT
September 6, 2008, 02:30 PM
(B13) May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?[Back]

An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.

See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921, 922(b)(3), (d) and (g), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.99(a)]

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b13

rondog
September 6, 2008, 02:44 PM
Not to go too far off-topic, but...

The gun-grabbers just love it when people on our side publicly make suggestions on how to skirt the law!

How is this off-topic or "skirting the law"? People buy and sell guns every day, all over the country, in face-to-face private sales, through newspaper ads. Not as common as it used to be, sadly, but still legal as far as I know.

Crazy Fingers
September 6, 2008, 02:46 PM
Thank God we are smart enough to apply the Constitution of the United States to everyone in the country, alien or not alien. The Bill of Rights is not something that can be taken away from someone just because they are not citizens; they are basic human rights in our country that apply to everyone, regardless of origin.

SCKimberFan
September 6, 2008, 02:51 PM
How do those who are not citizens have the same rights as those of us who are? What then is the benefit of being a citizen of the US?

The preamble states: We the people of the United States, not We the people residing here...

NC Dave
September 6, 2008, 09:51 PM
How is this off-topic or "skirting the law"? People buy and sell guns every day, all over the country, in face-to-face private sales, through newspaper ads. Not as common as it used to be, sadly, but still legal as far as I know.

If he can't legally buy one in the store, he can't legally buy one in a private sale.

When the topic of this thread is about non-citizen wanting to purchase a firearm with regards to current US Law and the suggestion is to find a face-to-face private sale, I read it as trying to go around the law.

If that was not your intention, I apologize.

Art Eatman
September 6, 2008, 10:00 PM
Lift up thine eyes unto the top of the Legal Forum page. Lo! And, Behold! The BATFE regulations, in all their Ecclesiastical Glory!

:D:D:D

stampsm
September 6, 2008, 10:19 PM
i just checked my laws and in nevada it is a misdemeanor crime for someone who is not a citizen of the united states to possess a firearm here.

everallm
September 6, 2008, 10:50 PM
Stampsm

If you are a Permanent Resident Alien, aka Green Card holder and you aren't in any of the 4473 banned categories you are legal to buy.

Nevada's law has no authority beyond the federal guidance.

LAR-15
September 6, 2008, 11:07 PM
He could buy and own certain blackpowder firearms free and clear.

Percussion, flintlock and certain primer ignition guns

stampsm
September 6, 2008, 11:29 PM
Stampsm

If you are a Permanent Resident Alien, aka Green Card holder and you aren't in any of the 4473 banned categories you are legal to buy.

Nevada's law has no authority beyond the federal guidance.
i just re-read it and it does read that way, thats what i get for reading laws when i should be asleep.

jdh
September 7, 2008, 12:10 AM
Even with a green card he will have to present proof of residency. Three months of utility bills will work, a DL will not. Nics will ask the FFL holder for the alien number and if the proof of residency was presented before the instant check is performed.

rondog
September 7, 2008, 01:18 AM
If he can't legally buy one in the store, he can't legally buy one in a private sale.

When the topic of this thread is about non-citizen wanting to purchase a firearm with regards to current US Law and the suggestion is to find a face-to-face private sale, I read it as trying to go around the law.

If that was not your intention, I apologize.

Well, no, that wasn't my intention, I was just making a suggestion. But now that you've reminded me of the legality issue, I reckon it was a pretty stupid suggestion.

It is legal for the rest of us though, right? I see guns in those little ad papers all the time.

COMPNOR
September 7, 2008, 01:21 AM
Buying face to face is no issue. As long as you are legally able to to begin with.

everallm
September 7, 2008, 10:55 AM
The FTF issue is legal so long as you (the seller) have no reasonable cause to believe the purchaser is a prohibited person or out of stater.

(B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction? [Back]

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

This is why, while not necessary, it's generally a good idea to keep a record of identity such as a details on a drivers licence when you do a FTF. If the weapon then turns up as part of an illegal act it would be harder for the ATF to try and hit with say a straw purchase charge.

Just saying, "Well, he seemed like a nice guy...although thinking back he did want to exchange in that abandoned factory..." exposes you to failing the "reasonable"

Iamthefallen
September 7, 2008, 11:31 AM
As an immigrant (Permanent resident) owning firearms, I'd strongly suggest only buying through an FFL with everything on the table. He'd jeopardize his future in the U.S by even the smallest violation of firearm laws. For us immigrants, basically any violation when it comes to firearms is grounds for deportation.

Immigration law on deportable aliens (http://www.uscis.gov/propub/template.htm?view=document&doc_action=sethitdoc&doc_hit=1&doc_searchcontext=jump&s_context=jump&s_action=newSearch&s_method=applyFilter&s_fieldSearch=nxthomecollectionid|SLB&s_fieldSearch=foliodestination|ACT237&s_type=all&hash=0-0-0-245)

In particular:
Sec. 237 1/ [8 U.S.C. 1227]

(a) Classes of Deportable Aliens.-Any alien (including an alien crewman) in and admitted to the United States shall, upon the order of the Attorney General, be removed if the alien is within one or more of the following classes of deportable aliens:

(2) Criminal offenses.-

(A) General crimes.-

(C) Certain firearm offenses.-Any alien who at any time after admission is convicted under any law of purchasing, selling, offering for sale, exchanging, using, owning, possessing, or carrying, or of attempting or conspiring to purchase, sell, offer for sale, exchange, use, own, possess, or carry, any weapon, part, or accessory which is a firearm or destructive device (as defined in section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code) in violation of any law is deportable.

NC Dave
September 7, 2008, 12:05 PM
It is legal for the rest of us though, right? I see guns in those little ad papers all the time.

Yep. No problem for legal face to face sales, but be sure to know all of the local laws.

For example, if I do a private handgun transaction with an individual in NC, I am still required to obtain a valid North Carolina Pistol Purchase Permit from that individual.

..back to our regularly scheduled thread....

wdlsguy
September 7, 2008, 04:14 PM
Worst case, King Red's coworker will need to get and maintain a hunting license. I'm pretty sure he can even get a Texas CHL.

Nonimmigrant Aliens Purchasing Firearms and Ammunition in the United States (http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/p5300_18.htm)

AndyC
September 7, 2008, 05:45 PM
I got my first FAL rifle receiver from an FFL when I was not yet a permanent resident. I had to show 90 days' worth of utility bills, Texas driver's license and a hunting-license. Still got a "Delay" from NICS but was approved 3 days later.

MD_Willington
September 8, 2008, 11:06 AM
I was denied on a YUGO SKS in Spokane WA, I had a WA State AFL at the time too, but no green card...

Like I mentioned above, there are provisions that allow non-immigrants to obtain and use modern firearms, a hunting license IS on of them...

NavyLCDR
September 9, 2008, 05:34 PM
If he can't legally buy one in the store, he can't legally buy one in a private sale.

This is not a blanket true statement. An 18-20 year old can legally buy a handgun in a private sale in a lot of states, but they cannot buy handguns in the store.

It is true in the case of immigrants in all cases, though, I believe.

natman
September 11, 2008, 02:33 AM
If the buyer is a resident alien, i.e. he lives here and has a green card, it's just like a citizen buying with one extra wrinkle. He has to prove that he has been a resident of the state where the purchase is made for the last 90 days. This is usually done by providing copies of the last three months of utility bills.

If the buyer is a non-resident alien, i.e. a tourist, it is still possible to buy a firearm, but he must provide additional documentation such as a hunting license. See:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/022002newregs4nonimmigrant.pdf

MD_Willington
September 12, 2008, 12:14 AM
Nics will ask the FFL holder for the alien number and if the proof of residency was presented before the instant check is performed.

My FFL's have never asked for proof of residency, I just showed them my WA State AFL, WA State CPL, and my Green Card...

Last purchase was under 5 minutes and I got the nod, paid the man at the till and off I went...

Zedo
September 12, 2008, 01:10 AM
INS can probably advise him on RKBA. Don't try to skirt the law. It will get him deported, and if you're "aiding and abetting" you're in deep schnitz too.

Chisel Head
September 12, 2008, 05:04 AM
...Get a used one from a private seller, like from a newspaper ad or Pennysaver-type paper?...

...If it's illegal for him to buy it at gun store, isn't it also illegal for him to buy it at a gun show?...

Does a private vendor have either the obligation or the authority to request the revelation of the potential buyer's identity?

Another twist to the subject:

I wonder how many people are aware, here, that the Phillipines harbor non-Christian terrorist elements in the south east, as recognized by the State Department. Of course, with ties to those hiding in the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

By helping anyone from that country to arm, benevolent as that person may be or not, runs the risk of drawing unwanted- and unpleasant attention from the FBI, CIA or whoever else acts under the provisions of the "Patriot Act".

I personally know a middle aged German fugitive who has left to live in the Phillipines, two years ago. Among the charges, incidently, are those for possessing 2 unregistered firearms. The Phillipines have no formal extradition agreement with Germany and up until now, evidently not even with the European Union of which one of the warrants is issued EU wide.
In fact, he's living here among a total of no more than a couple hundred Caucasian foeigners:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Ph_locator_map_leyte.png

If this status equals the aforementioined, with regards the diplomatic relationship between the U.S. and the Phillipines, it is questionable if the authorities are to keep an eye closed, regarding a Phillipino, as they might with a citizen from a cooperative civilized country like, for example, Britain.



Do you remember the I-Love-You computer virus case? Well, the FBI was able to press the Philippines on co-operation. But, it took 3 months to get a search warrant from the Phillipine authorities:
...Erstens ist die zuständige philippinische Behörde gar nicht in der Lage, die Cyber-Kriminalitäten technisch und juristisch zu bekämpfen. Der Chef der Anti-Fraud and Computer Crimes Division of Manila's National Bureau of Investigation, Elfren Meneses, ist kein Spezialist für Computerfragen. Er war vorher ein durchschnittlich ausgebildeter Polizist.

Zweitens wollte er sich nicht mit Vertretern des amerikanischen FBI treffen und Information austauschen. Die FBI Agenten haben zwar die Wohnung der Verdachten überwacht und einen Computer gefunden, aber sie durften die Wohnung nicht durchsuchen, weil sie keinen Durchsuchungsbefehl bekamen. Die Polizei hatte zwar einen Verdacht, aber sie brauchten noch über drei Monate, um einen Haftbefehl zu bekommen, weil das philippinische Gesetz so veraltet ist, dass es keine Klausel gegen Hacker gibt...

http://www-pu.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de/iug/archiv/SoSe00/ag4/jiongguo000726dk.htm

I'll update, as soon as I find an English language version.

Getting closer. Here's a tip of the iceberg regarding Philippine corruption. Old, but the tradition continues:

http://home.iscte.pt/~ansmd/CC-Cragg.pdf

...However, a joint investigation by the SEC and the Justice Department concluded that there was no evidence of irregularities in Westinghouse’s relationship with the Philippine government, even though the SEC reported that a Westinghouse district manager in the Philippines had destroyed six volumes of documents pertaining to the project.97
The appropriateness of the commission payments made by Westinghouse throughout the life of the contract has been the subject of on-going speculation. In reports filed in 1976 with the Securities and Exchange Commission under its disclosure program, Westinghouse claimed that during the fiscal years 1971 to 1975 it expended only $243,000 in questionable payments set against total 1974 revenues of $5.838 billion and gross 5 year revenues (1971-1975) of $25.729 billion. Yet, in 1978, Westinghouse reached a plea agreement with the Justice Department with respect to misrepresentations of payments to foreign officials regarding ‘matters within the jurisdiction of the Export-Import Bank,’ and it is difficult not to speculate that this plea agreement directly pertained to the Philippine nuclear plant.98 It took almost a decade for Westinghouse to disclose the $17 million payment to retain the services of Herminio Disini...

Art Eatman
September 12, 2008, 11:19 AM
Interesting information, Chisel Head, but please stay more on-topic in the future. Saves me the trouble of deleting off-topic material.

Chisel Head
September 13, 2008, 07:37 AM
I went a little overboard:o. I used to have the adress of a Philippine forum which had all the information in a nutshell. But, I think the basic message was conveyed about the fact that one can practically ruin their lives, nowadays, by helping certain people. Albeit, unknowingly and benevolently.
My source was German, I tried signing up, there. But, they had some software problems with sign-up verification. So, I lost the link, altogether.
For anyone contemplating helping Philippinos obtaining arms, here's a couple of English language links with which one can inform themselves on legal stipulations, beforehand:

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/philippines

more:

http://www.google.nl/search?hl=de&q=philippines+forum&btnG=Suche

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