.45 Hollowpoints


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Jaenak
September 6, 2008, 09:52 PM
I have heard several people mention to me in the last few months that their favorite 1911 style pistol jams up every time they try to chamber a .45 hollowpoint but it feeds just perfectly with .45 ball ammo. Why does .45 hollowpoints have such bad feeding issues compared to other calibers of hollowpoints? Is there a way to rectify the situation or are these pistols forever restricted to .45 ball only.

Also, I'm not sure what 1911 style pistols were being specifically named. I was just talking to some various people over the course of the last few months about their favorite 45's.

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possum
September 6, 2008, 10:02 PM
i have no issues with jhp's in my MC Operator 1911, my dad's two kimbers and many others.

I am sure that they were probally talking about the 1911. If so you have to remember that the 1911 has one of the most violent process of feeding, as compared to other semi auto handguns.

when the slide goes foward and strips the round form the magazine the round nose dives into the ramp or no ramp depending on what kinda 1911 it is. the slide continues foward and then the nose of the bullet slams into the top of the inside of the chamber and the slide continues onward and then the round is then "locked" in the chamber.

some 1911's don't have the proper ramp/ throat polish/ angle that is needed to feed the jhp's. some need a little polish here and there and they are good to go. but i wouldn't fret over a 1911, or any other pistol for that matter not working with 1 type of jhp load, i would try several, i would check my mags and then if the problem kept up, then it would be time to look into getting the 1911 checked out.

The Lone Haranguer
September 6, 2008, 10:07 PM
The 1911 was not originally designed to feed hollowpoints, as A - it was to be a military pistol, and B - JHPs did not exist back then. Its feed ramp (actually in the frame) and barrel throat design causes the round to jump and hop up from the magazine to the chamber, which can cause problems with the sharp cavity edge hanging up. The problem is even worse with truncated-cone (straight-sided) or very wide cavity bullets. Also, some do not "like" 230-gr. JHPs because the overall length of the cartridge is longer. (The bullet must be longer to make up for the lost material in the cavity and still maintain the same weight without being pushed too deep in the case.)

BUT - any newer-production 1911 should have its feed ramp and barrel throat shaped to feed hollowpoints, and failure to function with them is unacceptable. I would still hedge my bets by selecting a load with a rounded bullet shape and narrow cavity with the same OAL as 230-gr. ball. I found the Winchester 185-gr. Silvertip to be a reliable feeder.

possum
September 6, 2008, 10:12 PM
BUT - any newer-production 1911 should have its feed ramp and barrel throat shaped to feed hollowpoints, and failure to function with them is unacceptable.
this is the angle that i was comming from as well.

BlindJustice
September 6, 2008, 10:26 PM
AHem, the 1911 is the most violent in feeding a round cough <BS>

I've got a S&W 1911 - only failure to Feeds have been with whatever
funky mateial is used in CCI Blazer FMJ as well as Federal Un-leaded bullets it feeds every Rem. Win. Win SXT, Gold Dots, Golden Sabers
I've fed it. Removing or throating barrels -AND- when I keep the chamber
cleaned up it feeds 200 gr. SWC as well.... I just did a bit of polish on the
frame/ramp thatzall.... over throat jobs and yah get an unsupported bit
around the case and funny bulges.

Yah wanta spread 2nd hand accounts take notes on what kinda
platforms & ammo - bet there both el cheapo...

R-

possum
September 6, 2008, 11:12 PM
AHem, the 1911 is the most violent in feeding a round cough <BS>
please tell me there pal how that is bs.

The Bushmaster
September 6, 2008, 11:18 PM
My Colt series 80 1911 that I bought in 1990 will eat what ever I feed it including Wad Cutters. Oh yeah...185 grain JHP's too...And that has been that way sense it was new out of the box...

dmazur
September 6, 2008, 11:37 PM
Yes, as I have admitted in other posts, I have a pre-80 Combat Commander that had trouble feeding JHP's. Feed ramp showed machining marks! You could almost count them with a fingernail. The feed ramp needed to be polished and the chamber throated. Then all was well with feeding JHP's.

On the other hand, a newer 1991A1 Commander came with a decent factory ramp polish and throat job. Didn't have to mess with it. This 1911 liked hollow points out of the box.

So, yes, older ones can have trouble. Newer ones shouldn't, as the solution to this problem is fairly well known.

BlindJustice
September 6, 2008, 11:46 PM
Yeah, Possum I'll tell yah how it's BS - the O.P. doesn't back it up with any examples of platforms or hollowpoint specific data, and you back it up
without any stated qualification

Got a BSEE and written a white paper on semi-automatic desgin?

care to cite a link to a knowledgeable source of the comparisons of
the barrel/ramp designs such as

Traditional Colt
Clark/Para ordnance
Wilson/Nowlin
or no ramp which only
seeminly Kart has figured out?

How is it that the .45 ACP at 21,000 PSI
or .45 ACP +P at 23,000 PIS

IS MORE VIOLENT THAN
9MM Parabellum, .40 S&W, 10m Auto all at
or above 35,000 PSI with the corresponding
recoil spirngs to handle the higher pressurres?

Huh, and the 1911 design is so copied, ok, the
Browning High Power changed it up with the cammed
barrel unlocking/locking but nobody applied that
barrel lockup to a .45 ACP until the Sig 220 about 40
years later. bubba.

Randall

Chuck Spears
September 6, 2008, 11:58 PM
Little upset over that excessive celebration call in the BYU game?

CWL
September 7, 2008, 12:18 AM
forget it.

BlindJustice
September 7, 2008, 12:20 AM
No, I live in Pullman WA home of the Washinton State Cougars
who were down 42 - 3 at halftime....

SO, let's see how Possum defends his MOST VIOLENT statement
about the 1911 design, yet Dan Wesson Razorback Colt Delta ELite
and other 1911 variants in the 37,000 PSI 10MM Auto seem to be
the design of the day with the exception of Glock 20s.

Randall

Chuck Spears
September 7, 2008, 12:31 AM
lols

BlindJustice
September 7, 2008, 01:20 AM
Possum must have dozed off with the blood running to
his head trying to figger out somethin before it explodes

Eh?

Randall

Treo
September 7, 2008, 01:31 AM
Or maybe he decided you weren't worth messing with?

BlindJustice
September 7, 2008, 01:42 AM
Retreat is best when the position is
indefensible..... how is it a low pressure
round of large diamater has such a prolemo
and the design endures 97 years

Game Set Match

Nighty Night....

Randall

Rexster
September 7, 2008, 01:48 AM
I agree that the 1911 has a violent feed cycle compared to many modern autoloaders. That does not mean a 1911 cannot be perfectly reliable, it just means the nose of the cartridge has a more complicated journey. Many modern autoloaders are designed so that it is almost straight-line feed from magazine to chamber. That does not mean a modern auto will not have feeding issues, it just means there is less opportunity for trouble, from a mechanical point of view. BOTH systems are perfectly capable of working just fine.

MICHAEL T
September 7, 2008, 02:15 AM
I got several Colts from 1941 GI to 2007 New agent . They feed hp just fine as does my Kimber and Dan wesson
I shoot and carry 185 DPX Corbon +P
I also have a new American classic It started out shooting Federal, Remington, Corbon HP Pistol was new I was mixing different brands trying to get it to jam . I ran a box of Corbon 200gr HP +P thru it Fri,
I have never under stood the my 1911 won't Feed HP Mine seem to .
I have a Colt Commander 1951 9mm it likes Corbon HP also So not the pistol design.

Steve C
September 7, 2008, 02:48 AM
Gunsmith used to throat the barrels of 1911's to feed the broad flat nose SWC bullets used in shooting target matches. Most current manufactured guns I've seen have the chambers throated to the same extent the gunsmiths did. I have several 1911's Government models, a Commander model and they all feed HP's reliably. They will also all feed my SWC handloads well.

loop
September 7, 2008, 05:16 AM
Guess I just don't understand the question. All my 1911s feed HPs without any issues. I've never experienced the problem and I've been shooting 1911s since the 60s. I have had a number of 1911s fail with SWCs. But, I've never tried to load an HP-SWC into a 1911.

Ridgerunner665
September 7, 2008, 05:46 AM
I think possum was referring to they way a round gets "knocked around" during feeding in a 1911...

It gets rammed into the feedramp, then the end with the bullet in it pops up and hits the roof of the chamber at just enough of an angle that it chambers instead of stopping right there...Oh yeah...almost forgot....after it starts towards the chamber, after hitting the hood...the end with the primer in it pops up out the mag and the brass rubs the hood all the way in.

Now I know not ALL 1911's are that rough during feeding...and many other factors influence that...but WAY TOO MANY are like that out of the box.

MicrometerMike
September 7, 2008, 06:43 AM
I've never had a problem with ftf with any of my 3 Springfields with any bullet configuration common to 45acp., my Champ's are sometimes mag sensitive, the full length eat's anything and isn't picky about any mag it's fed from. I've used the most common jhp's I guess, that would be Gold Dots, XTP's,Golden Sabres and BlackTalon.

1BLINDREF
September 7, 2008, 07:35 AM
I think someone in this thread has had a little too much caffeine :scrutiny:
(it is entertaining, though)

I don't own a 1911. I do have a bunch of Sig P220's, both the old stamped slide and the newer milled slide versions in .45acp. I've never had a problem with any of them right out of the box ;)

My question is, do 1911 type guns chambered in 9mm have the same number of feed issues as the .45s?

If not, maybe its the size of the .45 bullet (diameter) and its configuration (not as pointy as a 9mm) ??

possum
September 7, 2008, 08:40 AM
Or maybe he decided you weren't worth messing with?
exactly, i don't owe anything to MR. Blind Justice. Or any one else on here for that matter. and demanding that i defend myself will no get you anywhere, and i will ignore you. de escalation.

think possum was referring to they way a round gets "knocked around" during feeding in a 1911...
exactly i was speaking nothing of the chamber pressures, or the like but what happens during the feeding process.

this is what i said in the original post
the 1911 has one of the most violent process of feeding, as compared to other semi auto handguns.
and then i go into detail about the feeding process. there is nothing in there about chmaber pressures, just the feeding cycle.

Blind Justice maybe you are blind, because you obviously didn't read my post.

golden
September 7, 2008, 05:02 PM
JAENAK,

When I bought my first .45ACP 1911 back in the 1970's, the first thing you did was get a RAMP JOB. TRIGGER JOB next and of course a decent set of sights.
You bought a COLT because the only other guns were spanish clones by LLAMA or STAR.
I, my brother and all of our friends owned and shot .45ACP 1911's and this was just a fact of life.
Things improved and a new KIMBER or PARA ORDNANCE should not have any problems at all, but they were not around in the old days.

Also, the earliest hollow points (LIKE THE CCI/SPEER 200 grain JHP) had huge hollow points. They could be a real problem.

If you have feed problems with .45ACP hollow points, try REMINGTON brand. They will feed in almost anything.

Jim

BlindJustice
September 7, 2008, 10:36 PM
Enough responders with no problems with hollowpoints
relating their personal experience is good nuff for me.

Randall - My name is on each post I send out no matter
the handle and yeah I am legally blind but I have assistive
sofrware that reads every word aloud
and I can still pepper a man size silhouette at 7-10 yards
enjoying my 1911, 625, CZ 75B and other handguns.

Jaenak
September 8, 2008, 01:00 AM
All this feedback is helpful. Thanks. I've never really thought of buying an older 1911, I always wanted to buy a new Kimber so I figure I should be okay judging by what all you have said.

My last question is if hollowpoints feed just fine in a decent 1911, why do so many people use FMJ rounds instead? I understand a .45ACP is big enough but if a hollowpoint works just fine, why not?

possum
September 8, 2008, 05:20 AM
My last question is if hollowpoints feed just fine in a decent 1911, why do so many people use FMJ rounds instead? I understand a .45ACP is big enough but if a hollowpoint works just fine, why not?
in a pinch fmj is fine, especailly .45acp, as compared to the other common handgun calibers, but with that said there is a reason that the police depts use jhp's, they found out real quick(lapd especially) that the fmj rds would go through and through. over penetrate if you will, and as every leo, and armed citizen is responsible for every round that is fired and where it ends up. you can see how that can be dangerous to bystandards in a gun fight, as well the round would go through the intended perp but wouldn't do the deed and still have the potential and in some cases did hit other leo/ bystandards, and killing the said bystandard or leo, not always but there was enough innocent bystandards and fellow leo's to get hit for the police to relook and re think the use of fmj ammo.

you want the round to stay contained in the body as to avoid damage and harm to inoccent bystandards, over pemetration as well as you want maximum energy deposit into the target, and to do so you need the round to stay in the body.

Neckshot5seven
September 8, 2008, 12:25 PM
don't screw with it and keep a hp in the chamber and backed up by a gaggle of hardball in the magizine. It really doesn't matter HP or FMJ with a .45ACP you get hit with anything like that you are going down

Chuck Spears
September 8, 2008, 12:44 PM
It really doesn't matter HP or FMJ with a .45ACP you get hit with anything like that you are going down.

It's just a pistol cartridge. Getting hit with a .45 doesn't necessarily mean you are going down.

Neckshot5seven
September 8, 2008, 01:38 PM
cuz you have taken a hit to the mid section with a .45 EXTREM SHOCK!!!! and keep going like the energizer bunny!! yea. No really... Any body that has been hit in the torso at pistol range with a 45 usually does not take another step. I have witnessed a man get shot by our sheriffs department and he just doubled over and that was the end of it. Not saying that that case was the end all for all gunshots, but just as stitistics say over 60% of .45acp hardball shootings is a one stop shot.

kitsapcharly
September 8, 2008, 02:04 PM
:) FMJ is all I want in my 45. Being that it's 45 and doesn't get smaller it has lots of frontal area to start with. Browning at first was thinking of a 200-grain bullet but when the bullet design was finalized at 230 spring rates, slide weight, etc. was all adjusted to that weight and length and the other 45ACPs are also set up for this weight and design of round. I want the highest reliability possible.
You should also note that surveys of actual police shootings claim that more than 80% of their shots miss completely so "over-penetration" is an old theory that doesn't relate to the real world. Those missed shots will do far more damage. The F.B.I. claims a mnimum penetration of 12" is needed because of odd angles often involved and more is always better to shoot through barriers like doors, tables etc..
In 1911 horsecavalry was still a major part of everybody's military and the round was tested a lot in the Chicago stockyards on horses and cattle both dead and alive as well as about 20 human cadavers. The 45 ball was and is at least fairly good on black bears, cougars, alligators, wild dog packs and you-name-it. Big magnums would be better but hard to conceal and slow on follow-up shots dueto recoil issues. Only suitable in hunting situations really.
FMJ also penetrates cars fairly well. Cars are fearsome weapons if somebody tries to run you down. Drive-by shooters use them and attackers are liable to fire at you from behind one. You may need penetration at times.
For all-around, general purpose, do everything with one gun a 45 with 230 grain ball ammunition is the best basic answer available. It's my choice at home, hiking, shopping, wherever. Not claiming it's perfect but the best overall compromise.

possum
September 8, 2008, 02:17 PM
don't screw with it and keep a hp in the chamber and backed up by a gaggle of hardball in the magizine. It really doesn't matter HP or FMJ with a .45ACP you get hit with anything like that you are going down
A handgun is a means to a long gun.
80% of poeple shot with a handgun survive. also why are you talking about jhp's working so effectivly in the quote below, you even seen it with your own eyes. Post like this lead me to believe that you are posting falshoods and you have no idea what you are posting about. maybe i am wrong, maybe not either way you are taking to different sides in 2 different post. but here you are saying that you don't need them.

cuz you have taken a hit to the mid section with a .45 EXTREM SHOCK!!!!
ok lets look at this, first off the "mid section" is not the desired point of impact. the high center chest is, 2nd you buy into the mall ninja "extreme shock"? let me guess you must use the anti terroist round, because it sends them to thier maker, and thier virgins and all that crap huh? or no maybe you use the air freedom round, so you don't puncture the walls of the airplane, where you are not allowed to carry your gun in the first place. I highly highly doubt that there is any Leo department that uses "extreme shock"

obviously people that post replies like this need to attend a training course, especially about the legal consequenses that can occur, like i said before you are responsible for every round that is launched out of that gun. If you want to take a chance and have the bullet go through and thorugh fine but i won't.

Chuck Spears
September 8, 2008, 02:20 PM
cuz you have taken a hit to the mid section with a .45 EXTREM SHOCK!!!! and keep going like the energizer bunny!! yea. No really... Any body that has been hit in the torso at pistol range with a 45 usually does not take another step. I have witnessed a man get shot by our sheriffs department and he just doubled over and that was the end of it. Not saying that that case was the end all for all gunshots, but just as stitistics say over 60% of .45acp hardball shootings is a one stop shot.

Realistically someone should. But there's just way too many stories of folks getting a lead salad to the torso and still fighting back. Like the highway patrolman who emptied his .357 revolver into a guy and he was still able to move forward and kill the cop with a single shot from his .22. Gun shot wounds are a weird thing. You have no idea what to expect since there are entirely too many variables in the equation. If someone can take six .357 bullets to their center mass and still be in attack mode then that leaves a lot of room for someone to take a single .45 in COM and still be combat effective.

possum
September 8, 2008, 02:29 PM
You should also note that surveys of actual police shootings claim that more than 80% of their shots miss completely so "over-penetration" is an old theory that doesn't relate to the real world. Those missed shots will do far more damage.
maybe you should direct this comment to Massad Ayoob, he is a member here, and he has written several articles, books and such on this topic.

possum
September 8, 2008, 02:33 PM
the reason the .45acp was developed was because of the goings on in the philippians, and the ill effect that the .38 was having on the enemy, so they needed something better. so then came the .45acp the funny thing is if you read the documentation of the accounts of the conflicts after the .45 acp was used then, not the bs that people think and assume now, but what really happened. it didn't change anything and there was no advantage with the .45acp, as far as stopping power again a handgun is a means to a long gun.

possum
September 8, 2008, 02:42 PM
I don't know where some of you get your experience, theories and such, and i am sure that some of you have 1st hand accounts of what you write, and you have seen and been around sittuations that give the ability to say and believe what you write.

Some of you know me, and some of you don't. I am a SGT in the US Army Infantry, i have spent 27 months in the "sandbox" in total. I will not go into detail, but i will say that what i write about and what i state in these post and in verbal communications with people is what i have seen and been expossed too, in multiple months of combat operations as an Infantry man. I have seen the effects of handguns, rifles, ied's, grenades, rockets, rpg's,vbieds, and handgun caliber smg's and the like. I don't troll for stuff like this where i can post info that sounds cool or looks good, but i tell you what i know and i have seen from experience. Otherwise i would be doing you all a great discredit by not passing on what i have seen in that war zone to the americans that have the right and need to defend themselves. You have the right to know what works and what dosen't. it is better for someon like me to tell you with the amount of experience that i have, than for one of you to find out the wrong way and end up dead because of it.

handguns are second rate, but they get the job done for ccw and the like, jhp's fmj's whatever it dosen't matter, handguns no matter what caliber and what the arm chair commandos on the forums say they are crap, as compared to a rifle, it is just to bad that we can't carry a rifle around all the time as ccw. so what is the answer oh wise one you might ask. have a rifle near you, have a handgun on your side. if you get into that fight of your life, use the handgun to fight to the rifle, and then end the fight if it ain't already.

a rifle is better.
a bunch of buddies with rifles are even better.
have a great day.[/B]

Chuck Spears
September 8, 2008, 02:51 PM
Nobody disputes that. Folks are just disputing whether you can rely on a handgun cartridge to effectively eliminate a threat. Many times you can. Many times you can't. The point is the to be prepared for the case where it didn't eliminate the threat. Just bc you put a double tap into someone's chest doesn't mean they are dead. Plenty of cops and soldiers and crime victims have made that mistake and paid for it with their lives. You need to keep your guard up until you know for a fact that the situation is over.

possum
September 8, 2008, 03:21 PM
you are right,good post Chuck.

roo_ster
September 8, 2008, 03:29 PM
Jaenak:

I will attempt to directly address your questions.

Why does .45 hollowpoints have such bad feeding issues compared to other calibers of hollowpoints?
There are other pistols that have had some feeding problems in the past with hollow points. Usually, these were designs, like the 1911, that came off the drawing boards before hollow points became popular. As such, they were designed to feed FMJ/hardball.

So, it is not just a .45ACP or 1911 phenomenon. The reason that .45ACP is so often mentioned is that the 1911 is the most popular pistol in the USA...and most 1911s are chambered for .45ACP.

Most 1911 manufacturers have gotten with the times and have slightly modified the 1911 to be HP-friendly.

Is there a way to rectify the situation or are these pistols forever restricted to .45 ball only.

Usually a competent gunsmith can diagnose the problem & fix it.

Here's a dirty little secret: most semi-auto pistol failures are magazine-related. Instead of mucking with the pistol's feed ramp, a change to a quality or different quality magazine will do the trick.

Some pistols are not worth getting up & running with hollow points. For instance, my 3" bbl AMT double-action only Backup will not reliably get expansion form hollow points. So, it gets a diet of hardball.

Also, I'm not sure what 1911 style pistols were being specifically named. I was just talking to some various people over the course of the last few months about their favorite 45's.

Likely, old Colts that were produced prior to the 1911 patents going public. However, some sloppy manufacturers produced truly atrocious examples of 1911s and will pay for their crimes in the afterlife as John Moses Browning's shade kicks them in the jimmy for all eternity.

Neckshot5seven
September 8, 2008, 04:34 PM
I was not saying 2 different things. If you would read my sarcastic post I was poking fun about the extreme shock thing and my point was 60% of .45ACP hardball hits result in a one shot stop. If his gun has trouble feeding hollow points then feed it what it likes. Krap for that matter doubletap that fella, last time i counted on my fingers 60% + 60% = 120% Use what the gun likes, if it feeds hp's then use em. If not use hardball. Point is hardball will kill something just as dead as super golddot platinumgoldensaberextremeshock ninja bullets will

Stephen A. Camp
September 8, 2008, 04:38 PM
Once again, a thread gets locked because a few just cannot stay on THR.

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