[threeseven]

Hi there! I'm a long-time lurker, first-time poster. I'm an Australian, and my mind boggles when I read about the freedoms you have in your country with regard to gun laws. Semi-automatic rifles? Can't own 'em. Still, I wouldn't be anywhere else :) I enjoy reading the tales here of the defence of those who are defenceless, and it angers me that I am unable to contribute. Anyway.

I was hoping some of you might be able to help me with my little fact-finding mission. You see, I'd like to (eventually) own a rifle and bayonet for each of the nations that took part in WW2. I already have an Australian SMLE Mk III and bayonet, and would like to expand my collection. Here is a list I have compiled of the weapons that I'm relatively sure I'm correct about. I'm fairly new to guns, so I might have some retarded mistakes. Please bear with me :)

Please, keep in mind that the restrictions in Australia mean bolt-action rifles only, so no M1 Garands or the like (sigh). I hope one day to go through the absolute rigmarole of getting a pistol license, so I can collect Lugers, M1911s, Webley revolvers etc.

On to the rifles!

United States
Springfield US M1903 - .30-06 7.62 x 63mm


United Kingdom & Australia
Short-Magazine Lee Enfield Mk III - .303 British Service.

Germany
Mauser Karabiner 98k - 7.92 x 57mm Mauser.

Russia
Mosin-Nagant (I am unsure of the model, however - m39 maybe?) - 7.62 x 54R Russian Service (I assume).

Japan
Arisaka 38th Year (I am unsure of this) - 6.5 x 50SR Japanese Service.

Italy
Mannlicher-Carcano TS Carbine M1891 or M1938 (unsure).

France
MAS Mle 1936 - 7.5 x 54mm French Service.

Can anyone see any blinding errors I've made or information I have left out? More to the point, did I forget any countries that were involved? Apologies to any children of those nations, it's late :) Anyone else have a dream similar to mine? Hopefully this information can be of use to others, also. Feel free to post any WW2-related info you like in this thread, I always enjoy reading about it. Any tidbits regarding the availability (or not so) of any of these rifles & ammo types in particular would be especially appreciated. Thanks for any help!

[DMK]

First of all, welcome to THR! We here in the states really feel for you guys down under. If you ever get the chance to come up this way, I'm sure you can hook up with somebody for a real fun range day! :D

Russia
Mosin-Nagant (I am unsure of the model, however - m39 maybe?) - 7.62 x 54R Russian Service (I assume).
The Russians used a variety of Mosin Nagants starting with the 1891 model while the Czar still ruled Russia. They also made a Dragoon and carbine model. Interestingly, the U.S. manufacturers Remington and Westinghouse made a number of 1891s under special contract for the Czar. When the Czar's government was overthrown, the U.S. government bought some of what remained. These were used for a short time in the service of the U.S. Army, Navy and National Guard.

The improved 91/30 model came out in about 1930 and was very similar to the 1891 model. The most obvious improvment being the front and rear sights.

Around 1938, they fielded the M1938 carbine. This was a shorter version of the 91/30 with sights regulated to shorter distances. Around 1944 the M1944 carbine entered service. This carbine is very similar to the M1938 except it has a folding bayonette permanently attached to the right side of the barrel just behind the front sight.

The last chapter of Mosin Nagant manufacturing closed in 1959. The Russians refurbished a large number of 91/30s and converted them to 91/59 carbines. They cut their barrels down to 20", cut the handguards to match and milled the longer range markings off the rear sights. These were then supposedly issued to police forces, reserve units and stored in armories for homeland defense militia use.

The M39 was used by the Finnish. These were made from captured Russian Mosin-Nagants. The Finish were actually issued 1891s by the Russians when they were under Russian rule. However, a number of wars broke out between Russia and Finland both before and during WWII. They used captured Russian 1981s and 91/30s for a while and then decided to redesign them to better meet their own needs. This resulted in the M91/24, M27, M28, M28/30 and finally the M39 which they stuck with well after WWII even continuing to use some for special purposes well into the 1970s. The Finns even manufactured a small number of new M39s from 1967 through 1970.

All of the rifles described above fired the 7.62x54R round. The Finnish also called this same round the 7.62x53R.

Here's some Mosin-Nagant resources:

http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/

http://www.mosin-nagant.net/

http://www.mosin-nagant.net/Finland.html

http://www.mosin-nagant.net/US-Mosin-Nagants.html

[dfariswheel]

Some alternatives might also be in order.

For the US, the 1903 WWII model as made by Remington and Smith Corona, OR the 1903-A3 with the peep rear sight. We also used the US 1917 "Enfield".

The 1903 models were used in combat in the early days of the war, mostly by US Marines in the Pacific, but the 1917 did see at least some actual combat use, often by American MP's in Europe.

For England , a Lee Enfield #4 was the primary later war rifle.

[Sir Galahad]

The M-39 Finn is an excellent rifle. The barrel is Finn made and very accurate. Of course, a very good comdition 91/30 is plenty accurate itself. Finding a good '03A3 isn't easy even here, so I don't know how you'd go about it. That Lee Enfield you have is a fine rifle. The Arisakas and Carcanos are hard to find ammo for. If you're looking for shooters, set your sights towards Mosin Nagants and Mausers.

[Triad]

Don't forget the Belgians, Dutch and Norwegians. (I don't know what they used)

Also there are the Swedish Mausers the Finns used against the Soviets.

Another US rifle was the DeLisle carbine. Suppressed bolt action .45ACP. Valkyrie Arms (http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.htm) is making a reproduction of it. Suppressors are legal there aren't they? If not they do make a version with a fake can.

[DMK]

Oh yea, Swiss Schmidt-Rubin K-31. That's a sweet rifle! It shoots 7.5x55 Swiss.

http://www.courter.org/guns/rifles/k31.html

[Mike Irwin]

"Belgians, Dutch and Norwegians."

Well, if we don't forget them, then we can't forget the Czechs, Hungarians, Roumanians, Chinese, and Brazilians, or Denmarkers...

[seeker_two]

...and, if you're collecting longguns from WWII, you can't forget the Winchester 1897 and Model 12 Trench Guns....


Model 12
http://www.angelfire.com/de/HMM365Vietnam/winmodel12.jpg


Model 1897 (second from top)
http://www.warpathmilitaria.com/97Win.JPG


Here's the site I found the '97 on. Has a lot of interesting info for your collecting purposes....:D

http://www.warpathmilitaria.com/

[MagKnightX]

Well, if we don't forget them, then we can't forget the Czechs, Hungarians, Roumanians, Chinese, and Brazilians, or Denmarkers...

Uh, threeseven, I hope your car and house are paid off.

[M67]

G'day, mate! Someone had to say it, might as well be me... Welcome to THR!

Triad:Don't forget the Belgians, Dutch and Norwegians. (I don't know what they used) I don't know what the Belgians used.

I think the Dutch rifle was a Mannlicher, M1895, 6.5x53R.

Denmark used used the 1889 Krag Jørgensen in 8x58R. It is basically the same rifle as the US model 1892, except the magazine was hinged at the front and there was no magazine cut-off, and maybe some other changes I'm not aware of (except for the caliber of course).

Norway, the Krag's country of origin, was the last to adopt it, in 1894 in 6.5x55mm. (Same cartridge as the Swedish Mauser, originally designed by a joint Norwegian-Swedish committee.)

The Czechs used Mausers, didn't they? The Poles used Mosin Nagants. It's possible to rationalize a bit here I think, unless you want examples of every model variation and caliber used by every participant. That would be a real challenge. :)

[J Calhoun]

You have the same goal I do. I'm putting together a WW2 collection as well. I have just over half of what I need.

I have:
USA= M1 Garand- Springfield 1944, M1 Carbine-Winchester 1943, M1903- Springfield 1918, M1917- Eddystone 1918
Commonwealth= No4 Mk1* Enfield-Longbranch,Canada 1943
Germany=K98k Mauser-Gustloff Werke 1944
USSR=Mosin-Nagant M1944 Carbine- Izhvesk 1945

I need Italy, Japan, and France. I would also like an Aussie SMLE.

Most rifles have the date of manufature stamped on them if date is important to you. The US rifles have dates on the barrels only. Otherwise, you will have to go by the serial number. In the case of M1903A3's, they were only made during WW2.

What is Australia's law concerning imports by individuals? If it's not to strict you may can import some of what you are looking for.

[AZTOY]

Japan
Arisaka 38th Year (I am unsure of this) - 6.5 x 50SR Japanese Service.

Well Japan used some others..........

Arisaka Type 38 like you seid.

Arisaka Type 44

Arisaka Type 99

Type 2 paratroop rifle:confused:

Also try to find with chrysanthemum mum that is not messed up!
http://www.surplusrifle.com/arisaka/graphics/s/mum.jpg

http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html



A freind has a Type 99 that i was looking at ,that why i have this info!:scrutiny:

[Fuzzy]

Well threeseven, I hope you have the time and money to pull this off. There were a lot of countries that fought in WWII. It wasn't called a 'world war' for nothing.

What about the African countries, what did they use? Italy took over Ethiopia fairly early and the rest of N. Africa saw plenty of battles. Also, don't forget all of the eastern an south-eastern European contires. Germany went as far as Greece and the Balkans but stayed out of Turkey, I believe. We also can't forget about all the Asian counytries. I know the Japanese went as far a Burma, but I forget if they actually pushed into India. How much fighting these countries did, I'm not sure. But there was definitaly a lot of fighting there. Anyone know what kind of weapons the 'smaller' countries used?

[Mike Irwin]

"The Poles used Mosin Nagants."

Weren't the Poles also using Mausers?

Ah, yes, here it is in Small Arms of the World...

"The manufacture of Mauser rifles and carbines started at the Warsaw Arsenal after World War I.

They also had Moisin-Nagants available to them, left over stocks from when Poland was part of Russia, I guess.

[AZTOY]

I thought the Poles had pitch forks.:neener:

[BowStreetRunner]

the Poles actually had a decent military for the time, but it was no match for the German war machine......by decent i dont mean good but it wasnt really a bad army IMO

[DMK]

Threeseven, try poking around one of the forums linked below. These guys are big history buffs with a lot of emphasis on the WWII eras.

http://pub42.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/

http://pub125.ezboard.com/bcollectorguns35625

[Johnny Guest]

Welcome to THR, threeseven! Please don't be a stranger.

I think your collection goal is a very good one, and you surely began at the right place - - The Australian-produced SMLE.

In your place, I believe I'd want to pick up an Arisaka next, if for no other reason that Japanese troops so armed were a huge threat to your country. I'm really not knowledgeable about the various Japanese rifles, but you might want to end up with both the 6.5 and 7.7 mm rifles. AZTOY apparently knows about such, and has rovided a good link.

By the same token, while I know the Mk III SMLEs were produced in Australia, you might be able to procure and No. 4 rifle and No. 5 carbine reasonably.

You mention the U.S. M1903 Springfield. Actually, U. S. troops outfitted with all three versions undoubtedly trained, staged from, and visited your shores. The original 1903, the 1903A3, and the 1903A4 'scoped version.

These rifles would seem to have the greatest impact on your geograhical area, and might well be the most reasonably priced for you. The others mentioned by you and other members also played their part and would surely be part of a complete WW-II collection.

Best of luck to you.

Johnny

[Mike Irwin]

The 7.7 Arisaka was used more than the 7.35 Carcano, but it never came even remotely close to replacing the 6.5 Arisaka as Japan's primary military round. It was simply introduced far too late (1939) into Japan's military excursions to ever have become the standard.

[M67]

Mike, you're right of course. I know they made Mausers in Poland, my brain just short circuited for a moment. I read something about Polish Moisin Nagants recently, so that's what the voices told me to type... :o

[Ian Sean]

Welcome Three Seven!

No one mentioned the US Johnson rifle? For shame, good rifle, saw limited use but alas it is a semi-auto and beyond our down under friends reach.

I would like to extend an offer as well, if you visit us let us know, we will go shooting!:D

[Mike Irwin]

Ian,

Unfortunately, with threeseven being located in Australia, semi-autos like the Johnson, Garand, M1 Carbine, etc., are an impossibility.

[Detritus]

beyond our down under friends reach.

theirs ain't the ONLY reach it's beyound :what: i haven't owned a car that cost me that much yet (admittedly i've never owned a new car yet, but still..)

[Rebar]

I've heard they're getting ready to ban swords down under. If that's the case, you might want to rethink collecting altogether. Seems that if they're going that far to make a nation of sheep, your collection would certainly not be safe.

[threeseven]

Thanks for your replies and welcomes! From the look of things, I may be forced to just stick to just the 'big names', as it were. Most of the countries used pretty much the same weapons anyway, I won't bother going into nearly identical variations on the same weapon.

DMK: Thanks for the info and links on the Mosin, it was one of the rifles that I was most interested in (I loved the story of Stalingrad), and also the forum links. I'll have to lurk them too :)

Triad: :eek: Suppressors are most definately illegal here. However, I do like the look of that weapon. If they make a fake version like you say, I might have to investigate the laws regarding the use of fake suppressors. They may deny it solely on the grounds that if it looks like a suppressor, most people won't know whether it's a real one or not.

seeker_two: No pump-actions allowed in Australia anymore :mad: You can still get them if you are a farmer or something, but I've got no chance. It's a shame though, because I really like the look of the guns.

J Calhoun: I must say I have absolutely no idea of the laws regarding import by individuals. My understanding is provided it passes our strict rules governing weapons it should be fine, but it's something I should definately look into.

AZTOY: Thanks for shedding some light on that - I once read a magazine article about these markings a few years ago and after that link, the whole idea seems to make a bit more sense.

Johnny Guest: Valid point! I hadn't thought of it like that before, but that seems like a good way to prioritise and order the weapons out.

Rebar: Sadly, yes. Our country is going a little bit mad, it seems. Luckily, my house is built like a fortress and the weapons will be stored in a 600kg bank-safe :) It pays to have a sister who works in security.

For those interested, here in Australia we are forced by law to store weapons in a safe at all times they are not being used, cleaned or otherwise. You won't find anyone with a Mossberg on their nightstand or SKS behind the cupboard door over here :)

[bukijin]

...you won't find anyone who will admit to it...

[Deadman]

Threeseven 1st of all, hello to a fellow Australian, and secondly you might want to send an email to http://www.lawranceordnance.com here in Sydney. They deal with all manner of military surplus items and currently have a no. of Mosin Nagants and Carcano's in stock along with various other surplus rifles.

[threeseven]

bukijin: :)

Deadman: Wow, thanks a lot. Bookmarking that one. This site seems to have a lot of interesting items on it.

[Okiecruffler]

My collection started as a WWII collection, but then I became fascinated by the Mosins. Had to have one of every flavor. Then I started the WWII collection again, but now I'm off on a Mauser tangent. Now I have to have one room just for my "junk". And the wife's eyes turn red everytime the delivery guy drives by the house.