What is the BEST polymer-framed handgun line (in your opinion)?


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Min
September 6, 2008, 11:33 PM
Since Glock came out with the G17, the choices got a lot tougher.

There are the XD series, then the USP series. Walther has the P99 series. Kahr has the P9 series, Beretta now has the PX4 series.

I am partial to the FNP-9 (not the FNP-45, too big).

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Kruzr
September 7, 2008, 12:02 AM
I kinda like my Wilson KZ-45. :)

Prepster
September 7, 2008, 12:03 AM
Walthers tend to fit my hands nicely, but all of the ones you mentioned work just fine.

bleedingshrimp
September 7, 2008, 12:13 AM
I would say Smith & Wesson M&P line.

Newton
September 7, 2008, 12:20 AM
Based on success - Glock.

Based on quality - Hk USP

Based on personal preference - SigPro

Geronimo45
September 7, 2008, 12:25 AM
The P99 is a teriffic fit for my hands. The PX4 is the most pleasing to the eye.

rugerfreak
September 7, 2008, 12:28 AM
Glock is still the one.

Abundant spare parts--cheap
Easy to fix by yourself
Cheap magazines
Durable--rust resistant

Nothing else comes close.

Bentonville
September 7, 2008, 12:32 AM
HK: HK45, HK45c, P30, P2000, USP series.

Blofeld
September 7, 2008, 12:39 AM
Nothing says quality, taste, refinement, and superior breeding like a Hi-Point.:)

Magnus1959
September 7, 2008, 12:55 AM
The evil G word. :evil:

nalioth
September 7, 2008, 01:08 AM
Does the Rock Island Armory MAPP1 rate?

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/32/mapp1msqt8.jpg

gc70
September 7, 2008, 01:08 AM
HK - there are several polymer-framed product lines and a huge number of model variants with different combinations of features (DA/SA, DAO, LEM, decocker, manual safety, etc.). Choice is good.

VegasOPM
September 7, 2008, 01:09 AM
I HAVE owned GLOCKs, and XD, an S&W M&P, a Sig Pro and a Kel Tec... I STILL own GLOCKs. Love em or hate em- they work.

Kino74
September 7, 2008, 02:32 AM
I'm going with BIG G word.

sevin8nin
September 7, 2008, 03:00 AM
Glocks don't do anything for me and although I like the feel and features of the xd series but they just look terrible.

I really like the m&p line from smith. The slide stop is well placed, the cocking serrations are awesome, and they're slim.
I've currently got an m&p 45 on order, so we'll see how it goes.

markk
September 7, 2008, 03:57 AM
HK...The first and best.

lechiffre
September 7, 2008, 05:02 AM
walther p99

Ghost Walker
September 7, 2008, 05:12 AM
Based on overall: history, performance, and reliability I have to say ..... 'G' something. (What is that word, again?) ;)

1BLINDREF
September 7, 2008, 07:38 AM
Hk if you want the best and don't mind paying for it.

px4storm
September 7, 2008, 07:55 AM
You can't do better than Beretta's PX4 Storm! It's an awesome gun!

hags
September 7, 2008, 08:30 AM
I HAVE owned GLOCKs, and XD, an S&W M&P, a Sig Pro and a Kel Tec... I STILL own GLOCKs. Love em or hate em- they work.

Yep, Glock has found what works and sticks with it.

chupacabrah
September 7, 2008, 08:42 AM
I like my M&P

nalioth, how's that RIA Poly treatin you? I saw those the other day, they look interesting

usp9
September 7, 2008, 08:52 AM
HK...The first and best.


HK gets my vote for the same reasons. HK is more innovative than Glock.

SCKimberFan
September 7, 2008, 09:09 AM
Sorry Glocksters,

I had a Glock, now I have a SA XD. It fits my hands much better.

Dobe
September 7, 2008, 09:17 AM
HK. I think they are more innovative, and the ergonomics are better than most (P30 & HK45)

Disaster
September 7, 2008, 09:32 AM
If by best, you mean the one with the longest reliabilty record it would probably be either HK's USP or Glock's model 19. Both have a long history of reliable operation in all kinds of nasty conditions.

Having said that, there are a lot of newer guns that may turn out to be just a tough...S&W's M&P....Springfield's XP....are two that come to mind.

JZ06
September 7, 2008, 10:06 AM
Glock.

possum
September 7, 2008, 10:19 AM
SA Xd series, i have 2 and i will oen more in the fututre. i love em. there is nothing i shoot better with than my xd service model in .40

glocks are great and they would be my 2nd choice, but the xd wins for me everytime.

Babalouie
September 7, 2008, 10:25 AM
M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P M&P

I have an XD, a PX4 and an M&P. Guess which one I love the most :D

jocko
September 7, 2008, 10:39 AM
glock,

mbott
September 7, 2008, 10:49 AM
The M&P line would get my vote.

--
Mike

nalioth
September 7, 2008, 11:47 AM
nalioth, how's that RIA Poly treatin you? I saw those the other day, they look interesting Not mine. I'm still gathering information (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=391090) as to whether they are as durable as the Tangfolios they copy . . .

DocCas
September 7, 2008, 12:03 PM
Of the more expensive line, H&K.

Moderately priced, M&P.

Bargain priced, SW(9)(40)VE.

sadp40
September 7, 2008, 01:49 PM
in 9mm. rotary barrel really soaks up recoil. in 9mm there really is no muzzle flip or movement.

thegoodfight
September 7, 2008, 02:03 PM
there is no other real polymer framed pistol other than a GLOCK. The rest are just imitations.

nalioth
September 7, 2008, 02:19 PM
there is no other real polymer framed pistol other than a GLOCK. The rest are just imitations.

Funny you should mention "Glock" and 'imitations' . . .

First produced in 1970:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/9487/hkvp70z1890tq6.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_&_Koch_VP70)Clickable image.

markk
September 7, 2008, 02:41 PM
there is no other real polymer framed pistol other than a GLOCK. The rest are just imitations.

HK was producing polymer pistols many years before Glock.

sgj
September 7, 2008, 03:19 PM
Don't mark off the FNP- I have one and love it. Find one at a range or borrow a friend's. Give it a shot, and you might be pleasantly surprised.

19-3Ben
September 7, 2008, 03:19 PM
The M&P is my favorite. I have two. A 4" and a compact9. In fact the 9c is on my hip as I type this.

SamG.
September 7, 2008, 03:23 PM
Glock and HK.................duh!

modifiedbrowning
September 7, 2008, 03:25 PM
1. Walther
2. FN

Loomis
September 7, 2008, 03:45 PM
Glock has everyone beat for production numbers. They were the first to make it really big. But I think they are getting passed up by the newer designs. I personally don't care for S&W M&P or HK.

The new beretta PX4 storm is AWESOME! I just rented one at the range yesterday. This pistol has it all. Light weight, accurate, mild recoil, fits your hand very well, excellent trigger...very impressive.

There's just one nagging little flaw. The safety sucks really bad. Whoever designed that lever should be shot.

I think the new sig 250, the new springfield XDm, beretta PX4 storm have all passed up glock.

skoro
September 7, 2008, 05:05 PM
My choice is the M&P line from Smith & Wesson.

Disaster
September 7, 2008, 05:29 PM
The new beretta PX4 storm is AWESOME! I just rented one at the range yesterday. This pistol has it all. Light weight, accurate, mild recoil, fits your hand very well, excellent trigger...very impressive.

Except that it is a pistol with no LEO contracts and that recently miserably failed the LA Sherrifs tests.

Javelin
September 7, 2008, 05:33 PM
Glock then HK.

:)

Disaster
September 7, 2008, 05:38 PM
there is no other real polymer framed pistol other than a GLOCK. The rest are just imitations.

If you think that the HK USP is an "imitation" of a Glock you need to do some serious research.

jdh
September 7, 2008, 05:39 PM
S&w M&p

RNB65
September 7, 2008, 05:44 PM
Glock.

lee n. field
September 7, 2008, 05:51 PM
Since Glock came out with the G17, the choices got a lot tougher.

Huh?

Glock was the first with any popularity (yes I know about HK's obscure first plastic gun. Ever seen one in the flesh? Me neither.).

weisse52
September 7, 2008, 05:57 PM
As Tupperware goes I owned Glock and they worked pretty well.
I have since shot a few SA XD's and think I liked the grip angle and grip saftey a little better.

They all have a following. Just becaue you see more Glocks do not make them better.

For those that understand, something can be a common practice, that does not make it a best practice.

thegoodfight
September 7, 2008, 06:51 PM
yeah but the glock is more realz than the HK.

ceadermtnboy
September 7, 2008, 06:53 PM
M&P, Glock = Block for me.

blkbrd666
September 7, 2008, 07:03 PM
I only bought one because I knew I was going to buy a Cx4 and I wanted to have the matched pair, but the Px4 Beretta has become one of my favorites just because of the accuracy and the way it handles...a great feeling pistol to shoot and I didn't think I would ever find something as comfortabe as the M&P. Actually, it's not as comfortable, but it outperforms the M&P. It's got me looking for a Cougar now with the rotating barrel.

M&PVolk
September 7, 2008, 07:09 PM
I have to go with the M&P. Reliable, accurate, and fits me perfect. I carry the .40 compact model.

Glock has a great reputation, and rightfully so, but to me, the M&P is where Glock hopes to be with their future pistols.

mbott
September 7, 2008, 07:15 PM
Disaster stated:

Except that it is a pistol with no LEO contracts and that recently miserably failed the LA Sherrifs tests.

The problem when someone posts a definitive statement like this is that some times they are not correct. I cannot speak to the LA Sheriff's tests, but the Ohio County Sheriff's Office in WV is currently carrying the Px4 as their duty weapon.

--
Mike

thegoodfight
September 7, 2008, 07:44 PM
glock rules and i like turtles

mgregg85
September 7, 2008, 08:44 PM
I prefer my XD45. The glock .45 acp was just intolerable to hold.

NG VI
September 7, 2008, 08:50 PM
I love my USP 40, and I love my Glock 27 (sub .40), and I also love my FNP9-m, so I don't know, I'd have to say all of them. I really appreciate the ability of the .40 and .357 Glock models to take conversion barrels and the vast aftermarket support they enjoy, but the USP was my first gun and it is a superb weapon in pretty much every way. Just not as good for carrying as the little 27. And my new FNP9-m is a superlative carry gun, reminds me in some important ways (like good looking machining and reliability) of my USP, has good capacity in a short grip, switchable backstraps, and it fits my USP MTAC perfectly. It has been my every day carry ever since I got it out to the range and my MTAC came in.

wyocarp
September 7, 2008, 09:14 PM
Glock.

thegoodfight
September 7, 2008, 09:15 PM
glock

Tamlin
September 7, 2008, 09:58 PM
Chiming in with a vote for Kahr. But in all fairness, I was looking for a deep conceal pistol - I compared the G26 with the P9 Covert. Kahr won, hands down, for feel and concealability. I would say it's a coin flip for reliability. Can't make a choice based on full-sized polymer.

tracman2
September 8, 2008, 12:28 AM
Wilson's KZ is a bit pricey compared to some of the favs listed......... ..but worth every dollar...

Defensory
September 8, 2008, 01:58 AM
I own a Smith & Wesson M&P, but it comes in a distant second to my Springfield XD's.

XD all the way.

DomMega
September 8, 2008, 04:20 AM
XD 40 is my gun, however that XDm is looking reaaaaaaaaaal nice.

Blofeld
September 8, 2008, 10:02 AM
What improvements did Springfield make to create the XD M? Other than a new grip, I can't seem to find much on it. Are they out yet?

Borch
September 8, 2008, 10:36 AM
If you really want to know which is the best, shoot them all. The one that is the most comfortable, easiest to shoot and most accurate in your hands is the best one.

CountGlockula
September 8, 2008, 10:39 AM
Try a Glock and buy it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/Gregdog/Pin%20Ups/NewG23001.jpg

woad_yurt
September 8, 2008, 10:47 AM
Personally, there is only one of which I'll own, Kel-Tec. I prefer metal 1000 times more than plastic but the P3AT is too convenient to ignore. It's my only plastic gun and it's my daily carry piece. Everything else I have could double as an anvil.

Blofeld
September 8, 2008, 11:01 AM
I agree it really comes down to fit. If you have hand-model quality hands, the strong yet sensitive kind that women prefer, go XD.
If you have a gnarled claw, Glock.:D

SC_1911Shooter
September 8, 2008, 11:12 AM
I own 2 Glocks, including one as my main CCW.
I've owned Kahr (PM45....totally unreliable feeder) and still own an XD45 Compact (2 different sized magazines 10 or 13 +1).

For me...the winner is:

Glock. There is no substitute.

glockman19
September 8, 2008, 12:06 PM
Easy....Glock

everallm
September 8, 2008, 12:15 PM
Probably my next purchase, I have the steel SP-01 and polymer RAMI 2075 which is sweet, now to help round out the stable

CZ SP-01, now in polymer.........:what:

http://www.czub.cz/get_img.php?img=img/CZ_75_SP-01_Phantom.jpg&width=450

glockman19
September 8, 2008, 12:40 PM
Easy....Glock

tinygnat219
September 8, 2008, 12:48 PM
Hk if you want the best and don't mind paying for it and then being disappointed in the results.

sm
September 8, 2008, 12:59 PM
Training Pistols.

kitsapcharly
September 8, 2008, 02:32 PM
Two answers. Kel-Tec 380 because it's always there...could almost hide it in a nudist colony...almost!!
Springfield Armory XD-45c with 4" barrel and both 10 and 13-round magazines because I can shoot it better than any other gun I've been able to try and it's truly reliable. The angle of the grip, the shape of it, the way it fits my average-sized hands. It points so naturally as to make up for some of my marksmanship deficiencies. I love my XD because it just fits me right and always goes bang, no click.
Rent guns and try. Put the gun down, close your eyes, pic it up and try to point it towards the target. Try this several times with different guns. Some seem to point up or down or both but the ones that seem to point naturally are the ones for you.
In my hands that's the XD above all. I also like bersas and Kel-Tecs and others but the XD is the one I call My Gun.:)

Fishman777
September 8, 2008, 03:41 PM
You'll get a lot of different answers:

HKs are probably the best in terms of overall quality, but I don't think that HKs are that functionally better than Glocks, XDs, or S&Ws. I would *never* buy an HK unless I got a smoking deal on a NIB USP.

Glocks probably have the best reputation and the track record. I think that they are a little overated, but I think that they are still among the best pistols that you can buy these days. The reason that I say that they are overrated is because some of the fans of this brand can be pretty silly sometimes. I really don't care to hear about torture tests that are conducted by people that I don't know. How do you know that the testing was unbiased? These stories could be totally fabricated for all anyone knows. I also don't care about the guy on some other board that has 300,000 rounds through their G17 without a single malfunction. I could say the same thing about any of my guns, and nobody could disprove me. I think that Glocks are generally extremely durable and reliable. They are *great* guns, but Glocks don't fit my hands, so I probably won't buy one. If Glocks fit my hand, I would probably own a g19 or a g17.

I prefer XDs over all of the different polymer guns. New XDs use melonite, which is *at least* equivalent to tenifer. Melonite is actually harder than tenifer (melonite's 68 on the rockwell scale vs. tenifer's 64). Glock is close to being diamond hard, melonite is diamond hard, according to the scale. XDs also have completed similiar torture tests, they have better grips, and more safety features.

I don't think that there is such a thing as the best handgun. What works for me, might not work for you. When I am in the market for a polymer gun, I will buy an XDm. Those guns are top of the polymer autoloader heap, in my book.

thatguy123
September 8, 2008, 03:57 PM
With enough searching I was able to find a place that sells NIB V1 USPf 9mm with night sights for $525, that's a Glock price for one of the most refined poly guns on the market.

Sure, a G17 will probably be a little more reliable and durable, but the USP is a much nicer pistol IMO. For me the USP is more comfortable and I'm a more accurate shot with it, that's the main selling point right there to me. I don't necessarily need a gun that would survive a nucler holocaust, although I feel the USP is more durable than I'll ever need.

NG VI
September 8, 2008, 04:36 PM
Glock more durable? I seriously doubt that, the USP is built to last.


But $525? that sounds great!

thatguy123
September 8, 2008, 04:58 PM
Glock more durable? I seriously doubt that, the USP is built to last.
Maybe not, but the Glock finish sure is more durable (and uglier). That said, I'll take a USP into hostile situations any day of the week.

But $525? that sounds great!
It really is a steal, now he's advertising them at $515! If you want, I can PM you his info. His name is Gordon Miller, he's on the Hkpro forums as well and he's a great guy to deal with, very fast shipping.

woodfiend
September 8, 2008, 05:08 PM
Dude, check this out, this is the sickest torture test that has ever been devised. Sig is a close second, and so is HK, but Glock is the AK of the pistol world. http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item

Disaster
September 8, 2008, 05:59 PM
...this is the sickest torture test that has ever been devised. Sig is a close second, and so is HK...

There is a similar torture test where they throw a Glock and HK and another gun...can't recall which, into a bag of sand. The Glock failed that one. The sand got in the trigger area and blocked it.

After reading widely different results I'm a bit skeptical of "torture" tests.

Both the Glock and HK USP have seen extensive testing by LEO's and Military organizations and both have passed.

It comes down to which action you like more...the DAO Glock "safe" action, or the USP with SA and safety.

Rob62
September 8, 2008, 08:53 PM
Glock, nuf said.

Rob

un_lucky
September 8, 2008, 09:13 PM
HS-2000 (or similar)

M&PVolk
September 8, 2008, 09:24 PM
Those torture tests are great if you are in the military. If not, you might need to re-examin your lifestyle. I fully believe my M&P would pass any torture test I dare put it through, but that isn't why I carry it.

I clean my gun after every hundred or so rounds. The torture tests seem rediculous when selecting a personal carry gun.

jlh26oo
September 9, 2008, 04:11 AM
I prefer H.K.'s ergonomics and their T.D.A. trigger over a striker action, but overall it's hard to deny GLOCK durability, simplicity, size & weight to capacity ratio, fast trigger, accuracy, unmatched factory finish etc (N.T.M. price). So while my personal choice is H.K. and Sig, I can't say GLOCK isn't the best. Makes me wish I was comfortable enough with the GLOCK trigger to carry mine (I.E. I'm not professional enough L.O.L.)!

wditto
September 9, 2008, 09:53 AM
Bul ; made in Israel and sold by Charles Daly

Doogy
September 9, 2008, 09:57 AM
the FNP line is awesome, especially for the money! Stainless forged barrels and stainless slides, true DA/SA, quality that FN is widely known for; what more could you want?

easyg
September 9, 2008, 12:20 PM
Glock is still number one in my opinion.
It's the one all others try to beat.

ge0624me
September 9, 2008, 12:25 PM
my favorite :s&w m&p ergoking of the polymers

paratroop23
September 9, 2008, 12:39 PM
I won't deny the Glocks are tough!

But I'm an HK man!! I own 4 and I haven't been the least bit disappointed with any of them.

HK USPf .45
HK USPc .45
HK USPf .40
HK P30 9mm

CanadianDad
September 9, 2008, 04:50 PM
I own an XD45 tactical and now an M&P 9mm and I love them both. I would be hard pressed to pick one over the other. Maybe I'd slide towards the M&P just because it has the interchangeable grips. Can't wait for the XDM to come out in 9mm though as I will be buying one of those in bi-tone. It will likely become my favorite of all my polymer guns.

357sigRog
September 9, 2008, 04:53 PM
Glock in my opinion

jon_in_wv
September 11, 2008, 07:07 PM
I look at Glocks the way I look at the Pittsburgh Steelers. I can't stand the fans but you can't help but like the team. I'm not a fan of the ergos or some features of the Glocks but its hard to argue that they aren't the best. I prefer my M&P but the Glocks are really great weapons also.

Walkalong
September 11, 2008, 09:03 PM
Xd's are my favorite.

NonConformist
September 11, 2008, 09:04 PM
HK USP series

lloydkristmas
September 12, 2008, 01:06 PM
Best bang for the buck? Probably Glock

But if I was, say, on a Police force that would pay for my handgun and I got to choose, money aside, I'd pick the HK USP.

I feel it has a slight edge in quality as well as reliability, and not that it matters really, but I think it looks better too!

BamBam-31
September 12, 2008, 03:06 PM
If this were a poll, the winner would clearly be Glock.

Above all else, a gun's gotta to boom when you pull the trigger. In this, the Glock has an unparallelled track record. It sets the standard. No one says "as reliable as a Beretta" or "as reliable as an M&P," even though they may in fact be utterly reliable pistols. Glocks, however, are invariably comapred to AK's for straight-up reliability.

It's like when people argue who the best player in the NBA is: "Kobe or T-Mac." "Kobe or Lebron." "Kobe or Garnett." Hmm, maybe it's Kobe. :p

Glocks set the standard. (And I like my XD 45 Tactical, too! :D)

ETA: One last thing--do a search and find any one of the plethora of "If you could only have one handgun" threads. You'll be surprised how many people pick Glocks, even when this question is asked on a board like SigForum. Why Glocks? It ain't cuz they're prettiest, that's for sure. ;)

jon_in_wv
September 12, 2008, 03:22 PM
MUCH of Glock's reputation is also hype. They do have a proven track record and they are highly customizeable.

People do also say, "reliable as a Beretta". They have a long proven track record also. My agency carries Berettas and I used Berettas in the Marine Corps. They only malfunction I've ever seen was one that went full auto because the knucklehead shooting it was the armorer and he thought he could do a trigger job on it.

People also say, "reliable as a SIG" But neither of them are polymer framed. Maybe the new P250 will fit the bill. But as it stands I would say the Glock IN 9MM has the best reputation for a polymer gun. The 40/45 not so much so. I would give HK the nod for overall reliability in all calibers. The only thing stopping them form having the popularity of GLock is price.

SAG0282
September 12, 2008, 04:28 PM
I own the XD45, SIG Pro, and GLOCK 20. I've owned the P250, USP, G17, G19, G23, G26, and PX4. My favorite is the SIG Pro, closely followed by my XD and my brother's P2000.

Mickstix
September 13, 2008, 12:04 AM
Hands down.. S&W Sigma :scrutiny:






:neener: Sorry, I just had to.. It's all I got at the moment.. :D

Ben86
September 13, 2008, 12:48 AM
I say Glock. It's not expensive, feels good, looks good, works good and you can buy almost anything for it.

I'd say springfield xds would be my next choice.

mbpautz762
September 13, 2008, 12:50 AM
another vote for the Smith M&P line. it's the only gun I own that will put 15 rounds into one ragged hole at 10 yards.

hornsmoker
September 13, 2008, 05:28 PM
Best overall line is HK. The best .40 is the USPc and the best 9mm is the P30.

cuervo
September 13, 2008, 07:50 PM
Since no one has mentioned them yet, take a look at Steyrs. They are very well made and CDNN had them in the $350 range if they still have any.

The down side would be that their importer keeps changing as they try to get themselves established in America.

crushbup
September 13, 2008, 08:43 PM
Steyr M series

searcher451
September 14, 2008, 08:20 PM
It's clear that everyone has a favorite line or two, seeing as how none of us has ever bought a gun that we didn't absolutely love. :) I find it hard to beat the Walther P99 series, personally, but that's an assessment based solely on Walther's overall decades-long reputation for reliability, accuracy, and quality craftsmanship.

magnumman44
September 14, 2008, 09:26 PM
XD Baby

TG13
September 14, 2008, 10:38 PM
XD.. ;)

alaskanativeson
September 17, 2008, 12:32 AM
USP
Glock
XD

In that order for me, but I don't find a loser in the bunch at all. I own all three. I don't have a problem with any one of them being on my night stand.

jocko
September 17, 2008, 11:09 AM
evidently lots of "good" polymer guns out there and some have not even been mentioned. i. e. Ruger, Kahr, sig.

19-3Ben
September 17, 2008, 11:10 AM
S&w M&p.

Ske1etor
September 17, 2008, 01:15 PM
Springfield XD... No, not the XDM... the XD.

Black Majik
September 17, 2008, 02:15 PM
Not really based on fun factor, enjoyment, or pride of ownership, but Glock does set the standard on many levels: durability, reliability, number of kool-aid drinkers, ease of maintenance and detail stripping, and superior finish.

I vote for Glock.

BikerRN
September 17, 2008, 02:43 PM
Posted by Rugerfreak:


Glock is still the one.

Abundant spare parts--cheap
Easy to fix by yourself
Cheap magazines
Durable--rust resistant

Nothing else comes close.

I couldn't say it any better.

BikerRN

gtmtnbiker98
September 17, 2008, 03:15 PM
Proven track record = Glock
Best ergonomics = M&P followed closely by the Walther P99

weisse52
September 17, 2008, 04:10 PM
Deciding which is best on a gun forum is more of a popularity contest than anything else. Declaring that a gun is best by this method is like saying that we will elect the "best" president by voting for him (or her).
I would say that we have lots of really good options, what is best for you / me is what is important. You really cannot go wrong with most of the current crop of quality Tupperware, IF it fits and works for you.

IDPA.ALEX
September 17, 2008, 08:34 PM
The XD has my vote...I have two, and there will be others in the future...

benderx4
September 17, 2008, 08:49 PM
Without a doubt - HK! Followed by the XD line.

Artiz
September 18, 2008, 02:08 PM
-Hk, followed by glock.

jocko
September 18, 2008, 04:48 PM
Love my kahrs, but my vote goes to Glock

[FH]K96
September 18, 2008, 09:38 PM
I have owned a Glock and an XD. They are long gone, but I still hold dear the Steyr M40- great gun imo :D

I still prefer S&W TDAs and 1911s over polymers.

legion3
September 19, 2008, 07:06 AM
Glock.

They have the most extensive line of calibers and high quality and plenty of parts and aftermarket accessories. And their cost is still reasonable (most places).

GeorgiaGlocker
September 19, 2008, 11:54 AM
Glock. Nuff said.

russcoh
September 19, 2008, 12:06 PM
Have yet to find anything I like beter than Glock...

TCmofo
September 19, 2008, 12:54 PM
"I look at Glocks the way I look at the Pittsburgh Steelers. I can't stand the fans but you can't help but like the team."

Great analogy, and I hate the friggin Steelers.

Glocks and XDs have my vote.

Defensory
September 19, 2008, 02:04 PM
Glocks will never get my vote.

Glock + reloads = KABOOM! I won't buy a weapon that I can't SAFELY reload for. I know some people go ahead and do it anyway, but it's not wise.

Also, terrible ergonomics on the Glock. I'd like a dollar for every person I've heard express a dislike for the grip angle etc.

I own a Smith M&P, but I'm not terribly impressed with it. The M&P's have had a lot of problems from the get-go, just like their Sigma predecessor.

The Springfield XD is the energizer bunny of polymer handguns---it keeps shooting and shooting and shooting---without the bad ergonomics and kaboom's associated with Glocks, and the quality control issues of the M&P.

XD all the way!

MarcusWendt
September 19, 2008, 04:01 PM
Not really based on fun factor, enjoyment, or pride of ownership, but Glock does set the standard on many levels: durability, reliability, number of kool-aid drinkers, ease of maintenance and detail stripping, and superior finish.

I vote for Glock.
__________________
-Richard

Clearly Black Majik practices the dark arts and that is why he's a fan of Glock, but what does he carry daily the other wizards want to know? :)

For me, it the M&P followed closely by the P99

Fishman777
September 19, 2008, 06:16 PM
I think that HK has the best quality polymer guns on the planet. Having said that, I don't think that any polymer gun is worth $800+. Apparently, the fine folks at HK disagree with me. Because they are over-priced, I'll never buy an HK.

The best mature design is the Glock. Glock grips don't fit me very well, but that still might not stop me from getting a G17 or a G19, some day.

My favorite polymer guns are XDs. Given time, XDs may prove to be as good, or dare I say, better than glocks.

OOOXOOO
September 19, 2008, 06:23 PM
Glock

Rinspeed
September 19, 2008, 08:13 PM
USP gets my vote.

Bob Hostetter
September 19, 2008, 10:15 PM
For carry.........http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h198/BobHostetter/100_0755-1.jpg

Bob Hostetter
September 19, 2008, 10:17 PM
for competition.......http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h198/BobHostetter/100_1222.jpg

hrivera007
September 19, 2008, 11:46 PM
Glocks all the way.

And who says you cant reload for Glocks? And as far as Glocks=Kaboom, thats an ignorant statement. All guns can kaboom at any time if you the wrong thing to them. You just here about Glocks more often, because there are probably more Glocks out there than most pistols. Xd,s are great guns, but some of them have kaboom also. Do a search on google or xdtalk.

I dont think any any gun is better than the other. I think Xd provides an alternative to the Glocks. Like if 3 safeties are not enough for you, or if the grip angle on the Glock dont do it for you. Other than that adding more bling to a gun dont make it better than the other. To me is more things to go wrong. Just my .02 cents.

jocko
September 20, 2008, 08:18 AM
hrivera007. Have to agree, some people tend to show thieir asses without pulling their pants down when they post crap like that. Hell if you dn't like glocks, fine or any other brand but when one makes stupid statments like that, they loose all credibility, IMO.

mikeone
September 20, 2008, 08:30 AM
GLOCK XD HK TAkE YOUR FU(KIN PIC..

$12 mags $15 mags or $30 mags

you want prestige then you must be fu&^in retarded.

They all are great weapons. Tell me IM wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rinspeed
September 20, 2008, 08:42 AM
GLOCK XD HK TAkE YOUR FU(KIN PIC..

$12 mags $15 mags or $30 mags

you want prestige then you must be fu&^in retarded.

They all are great weapons. Tell me IM wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Nice post, I'm sure you'll do well around here. ;)

Disaster
September 20, 2008, 09:22 AM
GLOCK XD HK TAkE YOUR FU(KIN PIC..

$12 mags $15 mags or $30 mags


Wish HK mags were that cheap. Try $50! Not sure where you are getting $12 Glock mags either, though.

More like $20, $30, $50.

penny
September 20, 2008, 01:17 PM
XD, even this ole gal can shoot em:)

zen pistol
September 21, 2008, 03:22 AM
performance: cz sp01 phantom, glock, hk

performance and looks: cz sp01 phantom

YoungGun
September 21, 2008, 03:30 AM
I was reading through this post and then I read a reply by Disaster that said Except that it is a pistol with no LEO contracts and that recently miserably failed the LA Sheriffs tests. .As far as I know I could not find any info about the LA Sheriffs debt disliking nor testing the PX4 Storm. My point to this is if someone is going post something about a product please make sure you can provide the facts. This forum like many others is for useful information NOT false statements!

The PX4 Storm is a fine gun. Between an XD and the PX4 storm you can't go wrong!

http://www.shootingwire.com/search.html?search=sidearm&off=25


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4892149&highlight=LA+Sherrifs+tests#post4892149

telomere
September 21, 2008, 04:11 AM
Personally I'll go
XD,I own one.
HK,the few I've used have felt and shot great, but expensive.
Walther
M&P, hopefully they get all the kinks worked out
PX4, really new but seem like good guns
Glock (Just don't like the way they feel, although I know quite a few Glockheads)

thegoodfight
September 21, 2008, 08:39 AM
funny how the XD got absolutely no attention before springfield picked up the design and rebadged it. Now it's the cat's meow...

I'll stick with glock. It's always been a glock.

moooose102
September 21, 2008, 09:02 AM
well, i am on a budget, so that narrows my choices consideably. i bought a Taurus PT24/7 Pro. in 45acp. it is a nice gun. it fits me well, shoots good, is pleasant to shoot, never once had a glitch. i think it is a fine weapon. now, if i had unlimited funds, like some have, i would like to try owning a Kimber, and a Wilson 45. i know from reading, that they are finely crafted firearms. but the chances of me owning one are pretty slim. i am sure Glocks are fine guns also, but i really do not care for them. maybe it is just the looks. they look to me to have the old "iron curtain" look, like they should have been made in istanbul, or poland, or some other eastern block country, with forced labor. IMO, if you are going to build a fine peice of machinery, it should look like it. if a Ferrari looked like a Yugo, who would buy them?

LKB3rd
September 21, 2008, 09:23 AM
I have an XD45 and it has worked flawlessly, good ergonomics, and I like the grip safety feature. Never owned a Glock, but I've fired several, and I like them too. I'd buy one.

jocko
September 21, 2008, 05:44 PM
guess for me I never considered the xd an attractive handgun either.

STeW
September 21, 2008, 09:31 PM
Sold my Glock 23 years ago. Didn't like it. Now have 3 HKs that I really like, they can't be beat. But ... what am I currently shooting for fun and competition, shooting well and enjoying. Glock 19. Go figure.

AlexM105
September 21, 2008, 10:08 PM
HK for me, especially after yesterday, which is when I fondled the new HK45 Compact and the HK USP45 Compact side-by-side.

They caused a bit of "movement" in my pants. :uhoh:

I've shot the XD-9, XD-45, and Glock 23. All were good, but to be honest I didn't really find the Glock's grip angle to be comfortable for me. I know Glocks have a long record and parts everywhere, but I enjoyed shooting the XD more.

wjh2657
September 21, 2008, 11:15 PM
I am by nature a wheelgun man. I have lived with M1911s for 30 years with USMC and will not fault them. But after getting older, I find I really love simplicity, no safeties to remember or racking slides , etc. Just point and boom. I have finally broken down and bought a semi-auto for carry (sometimes!) a Glock 23. I installed a stronger pull NY1 trigger spring and carry 1 in the tube. With the stronger trigger pull I now have a flatsided revolver! (With a whole lot more bullets!) I pocket carry and the 23 works out in the winter with deep pocketed Corduroys and Perry Suspenders. My primary carry are J Frame Smiths and a Taurus snubbie UL so I have already developed the "finger off the trigger" habit when drawing the piece. My G23 is third generation and has a better supported chamber and I buy quality ammo and no reloads. I have to vote Glock, based on the simplicity of the design.

golden
September 22, 2008, 05:53 PM
I have carried the GLOCK 17 & 19, H&K P2000 and WALTHER P-99. I started with GLOCK and still think they are good guns, but the P-99 fits my hand the best.

I have been issued an H&K P2000, another excellent gun. Its design really does reduce the recoil of a .40 caliber to the level of a 9m.m.

Still, my favorite is the WALTHER. It just feels the best to me.

Whichever fits you best is probably the right one. I would trust my life to all 3of them.

Jim

Disaster
September 22, 2008, 08:37 PM
YoungGun said:I was reading through this post and then I read a reply by Disaster that said
Quote:
Except that it is a pistol with no LEO contracts and that recently miserably failed the LA Sheriffs tests.
.As far as I know I could not find any info about the LA Sheriffs debt disliking nor testing the PX4 Storm. My point to this is if someone is going post something about a product please make sure you can provide the facts. This forum like many others is for useful information NOT false statements!

Right back at you, YoungGun.

It was posted in the mp pistol forum by someone from the dept. I was shocked when he said it failed miserably and asked why in a follow-up post. He said it was because they didn't feed ANY of their service ammo reliably.

Here is the link.
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=14125&hl=beretta

Original post:
After the approval of the HK P2000 and now the SIG's, and after the dismal performance of the Beretta PX4, I think the department will jump on the chance to allow a pistol that is easily adaptable to different hand sizes.

My response:
Curious. What issues did they have with the PX4?

Response:
It wouldn't run any of our ammo reliably, practice ammo or duty ammo.

Blues Brother
September 23, 2008, 10:50 AM
I looked at Glock and XD when I was in the market for a poly gun. I have to say I was much more impressed by the XD than the Glock. The features were better, and the gun just seemed to be built better. more attention to details IMO. I really like my XD9. its a terrific gun. It just works for me.

TomN
September 23, 2008, 11:32 PM
I really like my Walther P99, but I'd be more than happy to use a Glock or HK or an M&P. XDs are ok, but they don't really do anything for me.

dhoomonyou
September 24, 2008, 05:18 PM
GLOCK, a thing of beauty.

mpmarty
September 24, 2008, 08:00 PM
Had Glock 21, 23, 30 and 36 finally managed to unload them all on cool aid drinking shootists. Never liked any of them and the chambers were so loose I was afraid my CCW was giving me away by the cartridge rattling around in the chamber. Junk with an Austrian accent just like Californias Governor.

XD 45 good
HK better
for CCW I have settled on a new model Taurus PT145 with Wilson firesights.

Disaster
September 24, 2008, 09:41 PM
Had Glock 21, 23, 30 and 36....Junk with an Austrian accent just like Californias Governor.

XD 45 good
HK better
for CCW I have settled on a new model Taurus PT145 with Wilson firesights.

HO BOY...now you've gone and done it. Choose a Taurus over a Glock because the Glock was junky? Good luck with that high quality Taurus product of yours.

.357 magnum
September 24, 2008, 10:33 PM
My Favorite is SW-MP. I have a full size in each caliber of 9mm, .40 and .45acp. And believe it or not, I have had Excellent luck with the Taurus 24/7 and Taurus 24/7 OSS in .45acp especially. I still have a 24/7 9mm that shoots Pretty good, but it has one of them Damn Ribber grips that peel after about a year. The 24/7 OSS ia a real Nice gun. I have had quite a number of Springfield XD also-Ergonomics Suck, but I am waiting on the new XD-M factor to be Born. Thier M Factor .40 did not interest me, I Have the SW-MP .40 and that Rocks! [anyone know if the new M factor XD will be .45acp or 9mm?]

The Best to All!

Frank

jon_in_wv
September 27, 2008, 01:59 PM
On the topic of Glocks KABOOMS I thinke the combination of polygonal rifles (lead bullets are a no no) and the plastic frame has caused a lot of the problems with the KABOOMS accredited to Glock. Some knuckleheads didn't know better than to use lead bullets and caused their own KABOOMS and the plastic frame has a tendancy to get a bit messed up as a result. 1911s or other weapons with a steel frame can normally take a KABOOM with far less damage to the pistol (the frame anyhow). The fact there are SO many more Glocks out there also means they are going to hit the net more often. That being said, Glocks denial and refusal to address the problem doesn't help either. I have read of several departments that have had issues with Glocks and switched due to Glocks unwillingness to help them out. I think those were probably small issues that could ahve been recified but Glock seems to be in denial that "Glock Perfection" is a nice logo but no one is perfect. The G19 comes close but if purchasing a 40/357 or 45 I would move them further down my shopping list.

CoLJ
September 27, 2008, 04:00 PM
anyone know if the new M factor XD will be .45acp or 9mm?

The next XDM will be 9mm.

Defensory
September 27, 2008, 05:02 PM
Posted by CoLJ:
The next XDM will be 9mm.

You're right, and according to my sources it should be released very shortly.

Defensory
September 27, 2008, 05:17 PM
Lead bullets aren't the only problem regarding Glock kabooms.

Handloads/reloads of any kind should also be avoided, whether they be lead or jacketed.

The Glock design definitely shares some of the blame for their high number of kabooms, though. The chamber isn't fully supported, which is the ultimate cause of the kaboom problem.

Also, Glock kabooms HAVE occurred with factory ammo.

Kabooms with XD's are a rarity, because they have a fully supported chamber, and good handloads/reloads don't present a problem for the XD.

Tommy Gun
September 27, 2008, 06:40 PM
Glock!

BoneDigger
September 27, 2008, 08:24 PM
XD is the one I like best.

I don't like the Glock; it just doesn't fit my hands well. They are good guns but just not for me.

Todd

Dobe
September 27, 2008, 09:19 PM
I just picked up an HK 45. This is in my opinion one of the best synthetics on the market. After about 20 rounds, I shot is as well as handguns I have owned for years. It has a very good single action trigger with a short reset.

The ergonomics are adjustable, and feel very good in my hands. I'll get the P30 soon.

Mantis86
September 27, 2008, 09:28 PM
Xd or Glock I would say they both went under gun torture, and survived neck and neck. i have had a bit of a feeding problem with the Xd but it was with cheap ammo. Glock does have a ton of accessories they even have a carbine conversion kit for it!

MarshallDodge
September 27, 2008, 10:32 PM
Glocks:
The pistol that started it all. Having shot a couple I do not care for the ergonomics or trigger. From what I have read they are good combat handguns.

XD:
I got a great deal on a XD9 sub compact and thought it was a nice gun. It was thicker than my Kahr E9 so I sold it. The ergonomics were better than the Glock. I did get to shoot a mag through an XD45 and liked it as well but the trigger takes a little getting used to.

M&P:
I have shot the compact in 9mm and the full-size in 45. Both guns had impressive accuracy but I still am not sold on the triggers.

Kahr:
I recently got a good deal on the polymer framed Kahr P40. The recoil is pretty stout in this small package. It is thin for being a polymer gun and the trigger is typical smooth DA style Kahr. Excellent gun for CCW.

Stevie-Ray
September 28, 2008, 04:04 PM
If price is no object, then I would say HK. But as I said before, I consider them better than Glock, but not >$200 a copy better.

helz_mcfugly
September 28, 2008, 04:09 PM
kimber polymer 1911 would be my choice

j1979
September 28, 2008, 05:18 PM
Just the way my HK P30 points and feels is worth the 200 bucks more than a Glock. Pick it up and its already all lined up, at least for me. I still like Glocks, but I just like the HK more.

dartman
September 28, 2008, 05:41 PM
I went to the local range last night, to help my wife find a carry gun, and they had the new FN 5.7mm pistol. So I had to rent it. After 50 rounds, I was hooked. The gun felt good in my hands. 20 round mag. I loaded the mag, and without taking my eyes off the target, was able to insert the mag, raise the gun, and was looking straight down the sights. No thinking about about it. To me, that's whats important, not how the gun looks. And this one is UGLY. I still want one.

whuggins
September 28, 2008, 08:38 PM
I have never had problems with my Glocks. NEVER!!!!
Most problems with a Glock is the operator.

krs
September 28, 2008, 09:04 PM
I had heard so many complaints about the glock feel that I decided to buy one to try it myself. A G19.

It felt strangely familiar even while it looked different than any pistol I owned. I didn't understand how it could be so until I placed the new pistol on top of one of my Colt 1911's with my prefered arched mainspring housing. What hey! The angle and the shape are exactly the same - try it yourself and see. The surface is different to be sure, and the Glock is, of course, bigger in grip circumference - it holds a bigger pile of ammo. These things do make a difference.

But for pointing up naturally to a target the Glock falls naturally to point of aim just as my Colts do and I like that.

Oh, by the way, is there anything that makes this model of Glock pistol STOP shooting each and every time the trigger is pulled? If there is I haven't found it as yet.

akanotken
September 29, 2008, 12:19 AM
Love my P99, bought it when they were pretty new to the market. Choose it anyday over a glock (intended to buy that first but couldn't do it after handling it). Owned an XD (again, early model). So So, with poor finish (has it gotten better?). Checked out HK's, triggers are crap to me. Toying with getting a M&P, but more just to have another gun.

I'm also considering Glock again. Now that I'm better with handguns, I'm sure I could get used to it, and the easy to get-low cost accessories are a bonus to boot.

After reading this thread, I'm going to look at the PX4 too.

.357 magnum
September 29, 2008, 06:48 PM
CoLJ and Defensory,

Next Springfield to be a 9mm. Thank you for the replies! I was Hoping they would release a New .45acp XD M factor. But I can always use another Nice 9mm! I am Hoping it has a 4.5 to5 inch Barrel length. That would be Great!

The Best to All!

Frank

KodeFore
September 29, 2008, 08:35 PM
Glock. They are ugly and blocky, but also accurate and reliable. Works for me.

hessy
September 30, 2008, 02:34 PM
HK45
HK45c
HK30
HKP2000
HKP2000c

jimpro
December 19, 2009, 07:06 PM
I agree, if I'm not mistaken the PX4 was the first with an external hammer, so I ran out and bought one...... I prefer the SA/DA myself.... and it's a sweet shooter.... also now Taurus has the 800 series with external hammer as does FN ..... really have a jones for the new 45 acp tactical version of the FN... 15 rounds plus one in the pipe..... wow......

gs2009
December 20, 2009, 07:10 PM
Sig p250

Trigun
December 20, 2009, 07:58 PM
I have a G17 and I like it, simple and trouble free but the built quality is no way as good as the Sig pro.

Trigun

BlayGlock
December 20, 2009, 09:07 PM
I vote Glock based on functionality, price point, and aftermarket support.

Teddyb
December 20, 2009, 09:07 PM
I will throw another Glock in here based on personal experience and what I have read over the years. I tried hating them for a long time, didn't work out. Carry a 26 every day.

ElrodCod
December 21, 2009, 04:21 PM
I don't know what's best but the M&P is catching on.

Joe Demko
December 21, 2009, 04:32 PM
I've had several Glocks pass through my hands; I really wanted to like them but they just never fit me right. I have a full size USP 40 that is extremely accurate and reliable. Trigger reset could be shorter, though. I also have a M&P .45 that is nicely accurate and gratifyingly reliable. The adjustable grip size is a real plus. The trigger is a little stiff, alas. Overall, I'd probably go with the USP, though the Smith handily outclasses it in several areas. Both guns are equal to or superior to the Glocks I've owned WRT reliability and both are more accurate as well.

HGUNHNTR
December 22, 2009, 10:27 AM
There isn't a definitive best since the criteria that make up "best" are different for each one of us.

gglass
December 22, 2009, 12:47 PM
The Smith & Wesson M&P is the Bee's Knees of today's polymer pistols. Every Glock owner's wish-list item is represented by the M&P.

Need a better grip angle? The M&P has it.
Need more modern styling? The M&P has it.
Need a more ergonomic fit? The M&P has it.
Need an optional thumb safety? The M&P can have it.
Need industry standards for replacement sights? The M&P has it.
Need to hell and back durability? The M&P has that too.

gc70
December 22, 2009, 01:12 PM
Need to hell and back durability? The M&P has that too.

Need to hell and back reliabilityŽ - that would be Sig. :evil:

johnrobe
December 22, 2009, 05:40 PM
I have only shot an HK, Glock, and Springfield XD. So, in my experience I would rate them as follows:

1. HK - fit/finish is top notch. When I hold it (HK USP Compact) the pistol feels like an extension of my hand....can't say that for the other two.

2. Springfield XD - grip is okay. trigger pull is okay. Finish seems to wear a little faster, but not so much an issue for me 'cause I take care of my pistols.

3. Glock - Very tough, durable finish. HATE, hate, hate that blocky grip and gritty trigger pull. However....


All three have been reliable and are as accurate as I am.

GettinOld
December 22, 2009, 06:21 PM
Darn! Guess I have to sell my Ruger P345s. I liked the first one so much that I bought a second. I've never had much appreciation for auto loaders (old 1911, light weight Commander, SW 639, a bunch of SW 10mm, might have forgotten a couple of others), so I thought I'd try them one more time. Really liked those new Rugers, but the previous 187 posts have removed the scales from my eyes.

mordechaianiliewicz
December 22, 2009, 07:31 PM
I still think Glock is king. But Springfield Armoury is so close, if a person says they like Springers better, I'm not mad at 'em.

exdetsgt
December 22, 2009, 08:35 PM
I hate Glocks. They're blocky and ugly. Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I am the beholder. They're ugly. A 1911 or a Combat Masterpiece is not. The Glock trigger pull is from hell. Maybe "hell" is a relative term, but in comparison to the triggers on the two I just mentioned, it's an apt term.

Having said all of this, I carry a G21 (or G17) on duty. Why? No muss, no fuss, no safety, no decocker, no fiddling. Draw and shoot. Bang. Every time. No real maintenance, either. Now and then, unless I forget, I clean it. (It doesn't seem to care one way or the other). Like a good hand tool, it's there when you need it.

Erik
December 23, 2009, 01:21 AM
What is the BEST polymer-framed handgun line (in your opinion)?

The Glock line.

PT1911
December 23, 2009, 01:25 AM
Steyr M9-A1.... wish I had had the opportunity to get more of their A1 series.

NinjaFeint
December 23, 2009, 02:30 AM
I am a Glock man. I have shot others but I can't see myself straying anytime soon. That Gen 4 Glock has my attention though

scoutsabout
December 23, 2009, 02:36 AM
uh...

um...

eh...

ALL STEEL 1911 ! ! ! ! !

Sorry... couldn't help myself.:rolleyes:

flynlr
December 23, 2009, 02:46 AM
Glock felt like a brick in my hand so I went with ..M&P 40
Love it and it goes where i go .
.
http://www.njrod.com/images/hf/carry.jpg

Autolycus
December 23, 2009, 06:28 AM
I myself prefer Glock pistols. Especially in 9mm.

PAPACHUCK
December 23, 2009, 06:30 AM
Been driving down G Avenue for too long. Took a hard right and got onto XD Blvd. and never looked back.

Mr.510
December 24, 2009, 06:50 AM
The XD line.

SNK SKNR
December 24, 2009, 09:12 AM
FN Herstal FNP for me. Went to range yesterday with my FNP-9 and my father in laws M&P-9. The FNP felt much better (yes, I know about the different backstraps, the FNP has that too) in my hand and while shooting. The trigger on the FNP also felt 10X better to me. Alot of "gun" people (self proclaimed) I run into have never even heard of FN Herstal....very underrated IMO. Almost forgot to mention another feature that is important to me since I am left handed.... ambidextrous controls (all except for slide release, but thats not a big deal to me, especially if the slide is already locked back)

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