ar 15's and red dot capabilities....


PDA






brian923
September 7, 2008, 12:19 PM
how accurate is the eotech, or aimpoint sight with a 3 time magnifier? how far can you shoot accuratly with a set up like that?

where's the best place to get the setup? are the fake magnifiers as good as the real ones? will they substain for a while as i save up for a real one?

which ones better, the eotech or the aimpoint?

thanks guys, brian

edit: will a magnifier work with another type of red dot.... like this one...

www.bushnell.com/general/riflescopes_trophy_73-0132a.cfm

If you enjoyed reading about "ar 15's and red dot capabilities...." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Tomac
September 7, 2008, 02:08 PM
Do you want this for CQB & mid-range shooting, longer range shooting, what are your parameters?
Generally speaking the shooter and inherent accuracy of the rifle & ammo used are much more important than the optic or magnification.
For example, I could consistently hit the 300m gong (18") all day w/my 5.45 SAR-2 using cheap Wolf ammo & Kobra sight.
With my STG-556, cheap Silver Bear ammo & a 2moa Aimpoint I can do the same thing.
I find magnified optics more helpful in ID'ing a target than actually hitting it.
I've tried a magnifier/Aimpoint combo and didn't care for the magnifier (too much weight & effort for too little benefit).
If you absolutely must have magnfication then something like the 1-4x Millett DMS-1 isn't bad or you could cough up the big bucks and go for a Meopta or Shortdot.
If you're dead-set on a magnfier then I've heard some of the cheap knock-offs are better than others (supposedly UAG makes a better copy) but you might want to check out the LaRue Po Boy Special that will give you their excellent swing-aside mount & the surprisingly good Heinstoldt 2.5x magnifier for only $195: http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Categories.bok?category=Optic+and+Mount+Combos%3APo+Boy+Special . If you decide to get an authentic Aimpoint or Eotech Magnifier then you already have the mount. If not you can sell it and recoup most of your money.
Aimpoint vs Eotech has a lot of personal preference involved. While I prefer the Eotech's reticle it also has much less battery life & more reported problems than the Aimpoint. If possible, look through or try them both.
HTH...
Tomac
ETA: A decent magnifier should work w/any decent red dot sight provided they're at the same height to line up properly.

HorseSoldier
September 7, 2008, 02:21 PM
If you're dead-set on a magnfier then I've heard some of the cheap knock-offs are better than others (supposedly UAG makes a better copy) but you might want to check out the LaRue Po Boy Special that will give you their excellent swing-aside mount & the surprisingly good Heinstoldt 2.5x magnifier for only $195: http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetac...Po+Boy+Special . If you decide to get an authentic Aimpoint or Eotech Magnifier then you already have the mount. If not you can sell it and recoup most of your money.


A guy was running the LaRue Po Boy in a Vickers class I took and it seemed like it was working well for him. We didn't shoot further than about 225 meters in the class (on a C-Zone steel plate), but the guy with the Po Boy was able to hang well enough with guys shooting Short Dots and all kinds of other high end optics (ability level plays into that as well, obviously).

The Horus Talon is a good, solid optic that might be worth considering as well -- true x1-4 variable, for about half the cost of the Short Dot. Of course, if the OP already has a red dot it might not help him much.

brian923
September 7, 2008, 03:33 PM
where can you find the Horus Talon scope for sale. im having a hard time finding it....

HorseSoldier
September 7, 2008, 06:02 PM
Direct from Horus Vision (http://www.horusvision.com/) is the best way to go as far as I know.

If you do order, keep in mind you'll also need scope rings of some sort. The LaRue SPR mount works very well for the Horus (and the Short Dot too, if I'm not mistaken).

brian923
September 13, 2008, 12:07 PM
another question.....

can magnifioers be used with these typs of optics??

http://www.atncorp.com/DayOptics/ReflexSights/ATNUltraSight

strat81
September 13, 2008, 07:01 PM
IMO, if you want to do it on a budget, I'd go with an Aimpoint Comp C3 and try one of the eBay-special magnifiers. I've heard mixed results about them. 3x-magnification isn't much, but it's enough to extend the usability of the rifle and make hits on man-sized targets.

RobG5538
September 13, 2008, 07:11 PM
I tried a knock off 3x in a Larue flip mount behind my EO. I didn't care for it and found that 3x wasn't all that much help. That and the thing hanging off the side when not in use is a PITA. The mag was actually pretty nice. Clear and seemed heavy duty. The LT mount was of course awesome. If you really want some mag go with a low powered variable. There is a guy testing out some 6.8 loads on AR15.com that was using an EO and no mag to make hits as far as 500 yds. (man sized silo), so it can be done if you are up to the task.

NC-Mike
September 13, 2008, 07:32 PM
Tomac: I find magnified optics more helpful in ID'ing a target than actually hitting it.


I agree with that notion. I have a EOTech 512 with a EOTech 3x FTS magnifier and have been disappointed with the magnifier.

For me, the magnifier pixilates the red dot aiming point. Without the magnifier you see a clear 1 MOA red dot. Put the magnifier in place and now I get a glob of 8 little dots... :eek:

It is not a precision shooting solution.

possum
September 13, 2008, 07:40 PM
i have never used a 3x magnifier, i wil either use an acog, or an eotech. i have no problem hiitng targets out to 300meters with the eotech without the magnifier. standard army qual course. no issues no complaints. i love the eotech, adn that is why i have one on my personal ar.

30 cal slob
September 13, 2008, 07:53 PM
A guy was running the LaRue Po Boy in a Vickers class I took and it seemed like it was working well for him. We didn't shoot further than about 225 meters in the class (on a C-Zone steel plate), but the guy with the Po Boy was able to hang well enough with guys shooting Short Dots and all kinds of other high end optics (ability level plays into that as well, obviously).

Were you in the July 3-Day Carbine/Pistol II class?

Mr. Propeller Beanie :D was running a LaRue po boy special in that class.

Probably reflects the shooter more than the gear, but recall that the winners of all the Vickers walkback drills were using S&B Short Dots.

You might find this of interest:



http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=17704

Gents

I get people asking me about magnifiers for red dots all the time - many of you know I am not real wild about most of the ones on the market - I now have one I believe is the one to get if you have a requirement for a magnifier

It is the Larue Tactical /Hensoldt mount and optic combo - I believe he calls it his 'poor mans' setup - the magnifier is a milsurplus (mine is in new condition) 2.5 x magnifier from a German made sighting device for ranging and engaging tanks. The reticle is removed and I have seen a few of these in my classes - the image quality is superb and it does not have the focus issues many of the other magnifiers have - although billed as a 'poor mans' setup I got news for you; Hensoldt is the military sales division of Zeiss - enough said

It sells for $199 (I think) from Larue and from what I have seen it is the best magnifier setup on the market - if you want one I would jump on it as the optics are surplus so when they are gone they are gone

This is a case of you not only get what you pay for but actually MORE than you pay for

be safe

LAV


p.s. For what it's worth, Larry Vickers is not a fan of Eotech for defensive use. Amongst other things, reliability is an issue. Larry recommends Aimpoint Comps (note: i believe that he is an Aimpoint consultant) and S&B Short Dots.

p.p.s. larue po boy special here:

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Categories.bok?category=Optic+and+Mount+Combos%3APo+Boy+Special

Jenrick
September 14, 2008, 05:44 AM
Shoot you can shoot 3" groups w/ irons at 600yds if you know what you're doing. National level high power shooters do it with boring regularity. Actually picking your target out of the background when it's not a black bull on a white background is a lot harder. I'd have to 2nd one of the many adjustable low powers, or a fixed low power.

-Jenrick

HorseSoldier
September 14, 2008, 11:28 AM
There is a guy testing out some 6.8 loads on AR15.com that was using an EO and no mag to make hits as far as 500 yds. (man sized silo), so it can be done if you are up to the task.

I've made hits out to 600 just using an EOTech without much trouble -- but that's on stationary steel chest plates painted to stand out from the background on the range. (If memory serves me right, I was using the 6 o'clock position on the donut-of-death held COM as my hold over.)

On a real guy in drab or camouflage clothing, doing his best to move fast and get behind cover/getting small when he wasn't moving, I doubt I could have made the same shot as anything but a bit of luck.

Part of the big value of the magnifying optics is that they help you pick targets out and determine their shoot/no-shoot status, in addition to helping actually get steel on target.

30 cal slob
September 14, 2008, 08:48 PM
Shoot you can shoot 3" groups w/ irons at 600yds if you know what you're doing.

Try that at night or under similar low-light conditions.

Red dots rule.

Jenrick
September 14, 2008, 09:27 PM
I agree 30 cal slob, that's why I've got an EOtech on my work rifle, and a TLR-1 mounted on the fore end to light things up. However as the OP was asking about distance shooting I figured I'd mention irons can work for that if you know what you're doing.

-Jenrick

If you enjoyed reading about "ar 15's and red dot capabilities...." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!