Revolver cylinder gap gas severs thumb, now shooter sues S&W


PDA






AirPower
September 7, 2008, 01:35 PM
I knew about cylinder gap gas pressure, but could it really take off a thumb?

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/236609/

-Gun maker sued for thumb being severed
BY LYNN LAROWE TEXARKANA GAZETTE
Posted on Sunday, September 7, 2008

A man whose hand was seriously injured the first time he fired a revolver in the field is suing the weapon’s manufacturer, Smith & Wesson, in federal court in Texarkana.

In response, the gun manufacturer said there are no problems with the design of the weapon, a 460 model revolver, and that the man caused the accident by not heeding its warnings.

The lawsuit, filed in July by Todd and Kathy Brown of Rosston, alleges negligence by the gun manufacturer is to blame for a Dec. 27, 2007, accident in which Todd Brown’s left thumb was severed.

Smith & Wesson’s answer, filed Aug. 14, puts the blame on Todd Brown.

“Any injuries and damages claimed by the plaintiffs were the result of Todd Brown’s misuse of the handgun and his failure to follow the warnings and instructions provided by Smith & Wesson,” the answer states. “Smith & Wesson says that any injuries or damages sustained by the plaintiffs were solely, directly, and proximately caused by Todd Brown’s negligent actions and conduct.” The Browns’ lawsuit notes that Todd Brown purchased the 460 revolver after seeing ads that touted it as a great way to hunt game, such as deer. Brown bought his gun and a scope on Dec. 21, 2007, for $ 1, 896. 58.

“Shortly after his purchase, Todd fired a few rounds from this revolver utilizing a table rest in order to sight-in the scope,” the lawsuit states.

Then, on Dec. 27, 2007, the first day of the Christmas deer hunt, Brown took his gun hunting.

“The niceties of a table rest to support the revolver being unavailable in the field as one never knows from which direction game will appear, Todd had to support this very heavy gun entirely with the strength of his hands and arms while trying to steady the cross-hairs of the scope on the deer, and in doing this, Todd held the pistol grip with his right hand and placed his left hand under the trigger guard of the revolver and also braced the gun against the window of the deer stand,” the complaint states.

After firing at the deer, blood began “spurting up in the air and on his gun and clothes.” Brown’s left thumb was severed by the gases escaping from the barrel cylinder gap when it was fired, and a deep gash was left on his palm, the lawsuit states.

The lawsuit claims that Smith & Wesson should have known a hunter might move a hand forward on the weighty gun’s barrel when trying to site an animal and should have factored that possibility into the gun’s design.

“Further, Smith & Wesson was negligent in failing to give Todd Brown a reasonable and adequate warning and instruction respecting the nature, extent and severity of the danger of the devastating injury and harm (i. e., it will cut your hand off ) presented to a shooter by its Model 460 Magnum Revolver,” the lawsuit argues.

If you enjoyed reading about "Revolver cylinder gap gas severs thumb, now shooter sues S&W" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
General Geoff
September 7, 2008, 01:38 PM
And people laugh at me when I tell them to make sure both hands and all fingers are BEHIND the barrel-cylinder gap when shooting revolvers.

rcmodel
September 7, 2008, 01:44 PM
Can't fix stupid!

But you can always hire a lawyer and sue somebody for your stupidity!

BTW: Hope he doesn't win, or we can expect to see Safety Cages around the cylinders & frames on all new revolvers.

rcmodel

General Geoff
September 7, 2008, 01:49 PM
Well, with most revolvers this would have resulted in some severe burns and possibly a deep cut in the finger/hand. But he had to have that super-duper-ultra-death .460 Magnum, and, well, now he's paying the price for not reading the instruction manual (or just disregarding the bit about being sure to keep both hands behind the barrel-cylinder gap).

woad_yurt
September 7, 2008, 01:53 PM
This guy's story made the rounds a while back; now he's suing. It does say in the manual to keep away from that gap so I don't know what they guy's legal justification is. There was a similar case a looooong tiome ago involving a guy who went out and bought a Hemi 'Cuda or something, a very powerful muscle car. He spun it around and crashed and then sued the maker, saying that it was a inherently, negligently dangerous vehicle. That guy didn't win and neither should this guy. I hope, I hope, I hope this guy doesn't win this suit and that S&W doesn't settle out of court to just make it go away. If he wins, everyone that dumps their motorcycle because they popped the clutch too hard will be able to collect.

calaverasslim
September 7, 2008, 01:54 PM
On top of the shooters stupidity, there is always some money hungry mouth piece, shyster lawyer, ready to screw someone or company because of his clients ignorance.

Rmart30
September 7, 2008, 02:07 PM
The lawyers argument will be that S&W should have had some sort of guard or cover over that area so that possibly couldnt happen to his ignorant client. And even though it still clearly states in the manual to avoid this area there wasnt a warning stamped into the side of the gun to remind him:rolleyes: .

And we wonder why we have side locks on S&W's now:banghead:

presspuller
September 7, 2008, 02:14 PM
Why does not S&W file suit against him for not reading and following the instructions?
Makes just as much sense to me.
I guess S&W should have put it in bold type to not do what this idiot did. That would have made it all better.
Stupid people just get to me sometimes.:cuss:

buck460XVR
September 7, 2008, 02:20 PM
Brown bought his gun and a scope on Dec. 21, 2007, for $ 1, 896. 58.

not only did he not know how to properly shoot a revolver, he didn't know what they're worth or where to get a good price on one. Even with a $400 Leupold on it, he paid $500 too much.

Todd held the pistol grip with his right hand and placed his left hand under the trigger guard of the revolver and also braced the gun against the window of the deer stand,”

I'm guessin' the idiot wasn't wearing ear protection either and after shooting that X-Frame in an enclosed area, his ears were probably bleeding also.

He needs a sign...not a lawyer.

Ala Dan
September 7, 2008, 02:33 PM
Mr. Browns injury is a direct result of his own stupidy; and he is entitled to
NO damages from Smith & Wesson, resulting from his injury IMHO~! :)

Stainz
September 7, 2008, 03:20 PM
I feel this should be a landmark case... the idiot should have to reimburse S&W for their legal costs in defending themselves as well as pay court costs. I guess a thumbprint for ID when offering his check for payment won't be forthcoming, either...

I'm not trying to be too trite - it's just that there has to be a stop to this style of litigation - hot coffee burns, too.

Stainz

1858
September 7, 2008, 05:35 PM
Does the extent of this injury even sound plausible? A severe burn would be understandable, but a severed thumb!! :confused: Sadly, I would think that S&W will end up settling out of court which is how many of these frivolous lawsuits end up. :(

If ever there was a worthwhile experiment for the guys at Mythbusters this has to be it!!

Schmidlin
September 7, 2008, 05:37 PM
ive seen cuts and burns. But considering the caliber, 460? id say he got off lucky. And maybe he should never be allowed to reproduce or buy any more guns.

rcmodel
September 7, 2008, 05:53 PM
A severe burn would be understandable, but a severed thumb!!Yes, it is entirely possible.

Normal revolvers like the .38 Special and .45 Colt run less then 15,000 PSI pressure.

Magnums like the .357 & .44 run 36,000 PSI.

The .460 S&W runs 65,000 PSI, and burns a powder charge equal to many centerfire rifles such as the 30-06.

The blast out of the cylinder gap would be almost like a plasma cutter used to cut metal!

rcmodel

dagger dog
September 7, 2008, 06:04 PM
Hell of a way to find out that your method of holding a revolver isn't the correct way! :what:Yeah he's kind of dense, bet he bought that .460 'cause it was a pussycat to shoot too. Wonder if he ever read any articles on top strap erosion on high pressure revolver rounds.

Shade00
September 7, 2008, 06:07 PM
Now I'm scared to fire my wheelguns. Guys, look for a sale on all my wheelies in the classifieds. Got to get autos so I can keep my thumbs.

The Bushmaster
September 7, 2008, 06:11 PM
Shade00 Yer kiddin' us right?

bluetopper
September 7, 2008, 06:42 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if S&W doesn't start mounting some kind of small shield on the big wheelguns to deflect gas either forward or up.

Floppy_D
September 7, 2008, 06:43 PM
To test this when I heard about it, I rolled up some corrugated cardboard until it was about an inch thick, and held that adjacent the cylinder gap of a 686 with a magnum load... it didn't cut the cardboard, it confettied it.

The_Antibubba
September 7, 2008, 07:10 PM
Did you notice the amount of the settlement isn't listed? It's an unusual lawsuit.


He's only suing for a single digit.


:evil:

dhoomonyou
September 7, 2008, 07:10 PM
does anyone have a PIC of the PROPER way to grip a revo?
is it diff than a semi auto?

I guess I never thought theres a different way.

rcmodel
September 7, 2008, 07:20 PM
Just don't stick your fingers up by the end of the cylinder.

Simple as that.

All kinds of stuff comes out of there sideways, even on .22's.

rcmodel

Friendly, Don't Fire!
September 7, 2008, 07:23 PM
It's possible.

I was shooting my 500 Magnum on a 4x4 piece of wood. I had a towel neatly folded on top of the wood block. I didn't use my leather bag because I knew cutting would happen and didn't want to ruin the bag. I believe the owner's manual speaks of caution due to the gases that escape the sides, top and bottom (where there is no strap).

I was resting the gun on the terry cloth towel and each time I fired, it was cutting the towel and actually blowing it out from under the gun.

A couple of shots made little cuts in the wood surface, almost like the wood was sandblasted. That being said, it didn't appear to be something that would sever a finger. I suppose I could go out back and try a round, but I have grown somewhat "attached to my fingers."

The article states he "also braced the gun against the window.":uhoh: My question is did any glass break, or were there any raw edges of glass anywhere?:confused:

Friendly, Don't Fire!
September 7, 2008, 07:40 PM
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/other/S&W_Revolver_Manual_09-12-07.pdf

The manual on the S&W site states on page 19:

WARNING: ALWAYS KEEP YOUR FINGERS AWAY
FROM THE AREA BETWEEN THE CYLINDER AND
THE BARREL DURING FIRING. PARTICLES AND HOT
GAS WILL BE FORCED OUT FROM BETWEEN THE BARREL
AND CYLINDER IN ANY REVOLVER DURING NORMAL USE.
FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS WARNING WILL CAUSE SERIOUS
PERSONAL INJURY.
• Always use the proper grip as shown for a two-hand hold
(Figures 11 & 12). This keeps hands and fingers away from
the barrel/cylinder gap.
• Never allow hands or fingers to extend beyond the front of the
cylinder when firing (Figures 13 & 14). This is an improper
hold for any revolver.

I guess one should read the manual and heed the warnings.

zxcvbob
September 7, 2008, 07:48 PM
Should have quietly locked this thread at post #20 and let Antibubba have the last word

(it was funny, I don't care who you are)

meef
September 7, 2008, 07:51 PM
Oh brother.

The OSHA Cowboy cartoon was made for people like this guy. Gun manufacturers could be next?

http://www.hsegroup.com/hse/images/cowboy.gif

Glockman17366
September 7, 2008, 07:53 PM
Years ago, I was standing between 5-10 feet to the side of a buddy shooting .44 Mag. I thought I'd gotten stung by a bee on my right forearm. Then I realized it was the gases from the revolver. Sure did sting!
Although I'd been shooting occasionally and had owned (and shot fairly often) a Dan Wesson revolver, that was the first time I realized those gases had some serious force.

Marcus84
September 7, 2008, 08:04 PM
does anyone have a PIC of the PROPER way to grip a revo?
is it diff than a semi auto?

I guess I never thought theres a different way.

I'm interested to see this as well. A proper and improper way would be good if available. I'd like to see how he gripped it.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
September 7, 2008, 08:07 PM
Post 20 was pretty clever!

bluewater
September 7, 2008, 08:17 PM
Did he hit the deer?

Friendly, Don't Fire!
September 7, 2008, 08:23 PM
I wonder. I hope he got a ten pointer!

Jst1mr
September 7, 2008, 08:51 PM
The first thing I did was read the manual...what a novel idea. The warning is clear as day (as previously posted). What is scary is some of the inquiries here - seems common in the gun world to be handed a powerful weapon and proceed to use it w/o a clue other than what has been seen on TV. Yes, there is a proper way to hold a revolver(several ways in fact), just as you need to keep yourself clear of the reciprocating slide in a semiauto. YouTube is full of videos of unsuspecting sorts being told to fire a weapon just to elicit a "hilarious" result - -unbelievable! Let's not be flippant over someone losing a thumb, but also learn to keep an eye on our fellow shooters and educating them whenever we see the need. If you've bought a car lately, have you had to sit through the obligatory page-by-page review of safety features (by the seller)prior to driving it away? Not sure that's the right way, BUT when people take possesion of powerful tools, when lives and limbs are at stake, how can anyone make sure that they take at least the most basic step(s) to learn proper, safe operation?

lechiffre
September 7, 2008, 09:55 PM
of course if this makes it to court any prospective juror who knows what a barrel/cylinder gap is will be disqualified.

gun4funtime
September 7, 2008, 10:56 PM
OK,
McDonalds coffee is hot
Don't put hand under running lawnmower,
and yes, A revolver can harm you if used improperly.

Someone should have given him his sign.

More engraving on the cylinder and barrel, keep your stupid fat little fingers and thumbs away from here.

think of all the warning stickers on our guns for the no common sense crowd.
Won't be able to see the finish on the gun?

I really hope he loses his case!

rino451
September 7, 2008, 11:06 PM
Want to bet that we start seeing stupid labels and warnings stamped all over guns in the next few years because of this crap?

skyflyer
September 7, 2008, 11:08 PM
there was some very graphic pictures on ar15.com
i dont know if its the same person or just similar stories.

if you do a search be for warned they are extreme.

Jeff F
September 7, 2008, 11:21 PM
I think S&W will settle and the guy will get a pocket full of money. I don't think it will go to trial. I know it was his fault and all but so was the coffee from Micky d's that got spilled between that gals legs and we know how that turned out.

GP100man
September 7, 2008, 11:39 PM
a few weeks back on the firing line there was a fellow that had his wife hold the xvr the way he was holding it before he lost the end of his left thumb!!!!!
he was gripping the frame in front of the trigger guard to hold the xvr `s weight steady while focusing on the scope , & not hand placement .


GP100man

jjohnson
September 7, 2008, 11:41 PM
Shade, and anyone else, I will accept your scary wheelguns if you want someone with confidence to shoot them safely. Drop me a note, and we'll negotiate which one of us pays shipping and to which properly licensed dealer they need to go to. Deal?:D

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
September 7, 2008, 11:52 PM
Does anybody really know how much is S&W being sued for?

Loomis
September 8, 2008, 12:04 AM
Gee, it's a good thing the dope didn't have the gun pointed the wrong way. Then he'd be suing because they didn't have a bullet proof guard on the end of the muzzle to keep the bullet from hitting him when it comes out.

iiibdsiil
September 8, 2008, 12:15 AM
Man, my 9mm will take more than just a finger off. That .460 is wussy! :p

LeonCarr
September 8, 2008, 12:17 AM
Did he get the deer?

LeonCarr

Loomis
September 8, 2008, 12:23 AM
I was just thinking...

If the 460 cartridge has that much power coming out of the cylinder gap, I wonder how many shots before the gun is junk from the flame cutting on the top strap? couple hundred? Couple thousand?

I guess I won't bother buying a S&W 460.

GRB
September 8, 2008, 12:30 AM
Todd held the pistol grip with his right hand and placed his left hand under the trigger guard of the revolver and also braced the gun against the window of the deer stand,” While all of you seem to have missed this important piece of information, I hope that S&W has not missed it, and I hope that local law enforcement did not miss it when and if they investigated this incident.

Are you still not getting it? Look at where he says he rested the revolver. THE WINDOW of the deer stand. Makes one wonder, at least it makes me wonder (and I am one) if the window had glass in it, and if the glass was blown out and severed his finger, or if there was a window latch on which he caught his finger and severed it, or if wood splintered and that caused the finger to be severed, or if the recoil made the window slam shut on his finger severing it, etc....

TacoMalo
September 8, 2008, 12:42 AM
Dude where's my thumb...???

:evil:

.45&TKD
September 8, 2008, 12:49 AM
Yes, there is a proper way to hold a revolver(several ways in fact),

does anyone have a PIC of the PROPER way to grip a revo?
is it diff than a semi auto?

I guess I never thought theres a different way.
I'm interested to see this as well. A proper and improper way would be good if available

Anyone care to elaborate. Pictures would be helpful.

I've been on this forum for years and this is the first time I've seen this topic come up.

SimpleIsGood229
September 8, 2008, 12:50 AM
I got my hand slammed in the door of a Chevy one time. I believe Chevrolet should have foreseen people placing their hands in the paths of their vehicles' doors. Okay, I'm definitely gonna sue 'em for negligence! :banghead:

Simply asinine. :fire:

Tribal
September 8, 2008, 01:23 AM
Hold up, can we get some clarification as to what he did wrong?

It sounds to me like he tried to hold it like a tiny little rifle, putting his left hand where the stock would be on a rifle or Thompson Contender. Is that correct?

Remind me to shoot anything bigger than .44mag out of a long gun...

WAID
September 8, 2008, 02:06 AM
I had seen some pictures of what I believe was this individuals thumb when it first happened, it wasn't actually severed off but it was severely injured. Look just like a high pressure fluid injury from an air hose or a hydraulic line. Those sorts of injuries tend to be pretty horrific and often result in a lost limb.

AnaxImperator
September 8, 2008, 02:12 AM
Yes, there is a proper way to hold a revolver(several ways in fact)I guess I never thought theres a different way.
I'm interested to see this as well. A proper and improper way would be good if available

Anyone care to elaborate. Pictures would be helpful.

I've been on this forum for years and this is the first time I've seen this topic come up.

Here's the way I was taught, and I've seen a couple wheelgun old-timers unconsciously use this grip when picking up a semiauto, and then readjust. Try and keep your hand as far up the grip as possible to bring the barrel-axis close to your wrist-axis, which will reduce muzzle-flip.
(Note: this was an awkward picture to take by myself)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/orderodonata/Grip1.jpg

Here's the grip I see most people using who regularly shoot semiautos, with the support-hand just cupping the grip-hand. It's harder to control the revolver and you'll get more muzzle-flip this way.
As said before, there's more than one way hold a revolver, especially with all the different grip styles now. I'm not saying my thumb-over is the right way, just how I was taught and I've seen others use.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/orderodonata/Grip2.jpg

This is how the idiot who lost his thumb was likely holding his .460.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/orderodonata/Badgrip.jpg

And this is just a .357.... Imagine now a .460! :eek:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/orderodonata/Mosin%20Nagant/Night_Rossi5.jpg

AnaxImperator
September 8, 2008, 02:16 AM
I found a picture of a .500. :what:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/orderodonata/SW500_NightFiring.jpg

ants
September 8, 2008, 02:37 AM
If I was a lawyer (I'm not) and really sleazy (I'm not), I could set up the complaint like this. It will convince any average American on a jury:

The lawsuit notes that Plaintiff purchased the 460 revolver after seeing Smith & Wesson ads that touted it as a great way to hunt game, such as deer.
To hunt deer effectively with these revolvers, it is normal and customary to mount a telescopic sight. Plaintiff followed the manufacturer's suggestion and purchased the revolver for a deer hunt, then mounted a suitable telescopic sight as is normal and customary.
Once a telescopic sight is mounted on a Smith & Wesson 460 revolver, the design makes it so excessively front-heavy such that one cannot safely support it with the standard two-hand grip. One is forced to utilize forward support, for which many firearms of this magnitude provide a forearm or foregrip to safely support the firearm.
This firearm utilizes a cartridge that produces 65,000 pounds per square inch of pressure, equaling magnum rifle cartridges. Rifles utilizing cartridges of that pressure always have a protected forearm and fully enclosed firing chamber to contain hot gases safely. The Smith & Wesson 460 does not, and is inherently very unsafe.
A revolver utilizing this unique cartridge should be designed such that it can be used as advertised while being held safely. Any revolver designed with a gap between the firing chamber and barrel should never be manufactured to utilize this cartridge, unless a safe forearm or foregrip are provided.
Smith & Wesson's published warnings are thus specious and arbitrary, since one cannot safely support a weapon in a normal and customary manner, which fires such an extraordinary cartridge, if a proper forearm or foregrip are not provided.

See? It's easy to fabricate a winning lawsuit. You need to focus on the advertisement, and make the printed warning sound specious and arbitrary.

Let me be really clear: Don't flame me. I do not advocate the complaint I fabricated above. I'm simply illustrating that bogus product liability complaints can be made to sound very, very plausible.

ChrisVV
September 8, 2008, 03:27 AM
He's only suing for a single digit.


on man...


Hold on, this is a rough ride...
If I was a lawyer (I'm not) and really sleazy (I'm not), I could set up the complaint like this. It will convince any average American on a jury:

* The lawsuit notes ....


I hate to say it but... I see your point.

.45&TKD
September 8, 2008, 03:30 AM
AnaxImperator,

Thanks.

I'm embarrassed to admit, I've shot my revolvers with the same over hand grip that I shoot my semi-autos with. I didn't know it was wrong.

.357 mags out of a SP101 and 44 mags out of a S&W 29-2. The tip of my thumb could feel the gas, but never got hurt. Of course, I don't shoot the revolvers much.

TAB
September 8, 2008, 03:37 AM
Any bets as to rather or not there is a warning on all new S&W revos built?

wideym
September 8, 2008, 04:34 AM
I can't laugh at the guy, I did almost the same thing with a S&W 500.

I used my hand to brace the barrel and when I fired my forearm was stung with powder burns and had a very small, light cut. It stung, but not that badly, I didn't even drop the pistol, although I felt like it for a second.

Aka Zero
September 8, 2008, 05:14 AM
Should have bought a nagant.

Or a rifle....

Marcus84
September 8, 2008, 05:26 AM
Go to Google, put in "cylinder gap" and click image search. The first pic I believe is the one that relates to it, at least that's what the caption says. It's graphic.

Marcus84
September 8, 2008, 05:33 AM
.44 mag vs polish sausage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_TNvPhTiB8&feature=related

Creade
September 8, 2008, 09:24 AM
The lawyers argument will be that S&W should have had some sort of guard or cover over that area so that possibly couldnt happen to his ignorant client.

Should probably add a cage over the barrel too. And definately one over this guys nether region so he cannot reproduce.

Tribal
September 8, 2008, 10:25 AM
ants actually makes a compelling case. That something that discharges hot plasma doesn't have a shield looks bad for S&W. It would be different if everyone knew about this kind of thing and not to hold it there, but I sure didn't and I'm sure most people don't. Even table saws have a protective shield, although presumably everyone knows not to touch the spinny part.

On the other hand, "vampire bites" from semiautos are common and I don't see much about that.

I'm guessing alcohol played a role in this accident.

Noxx
September 8, 2008, 01:57 PM
On the other hand, "vampire bites" from semiautos are common and I don't see much about that

Hadn't thought about that, I should sue the piss out of the mfr of my hi-power....

Smurfslayer
September 8, 2008, 02:20 PM
I heard this guy used to be all thumbs.

1858
September 8, 2008, 02:48 PM
Go to Google, put in "cylinder gap" and click image search. The first pic I believe is the one that relates to it, at least that's what the caption says. It's graphic.

OK ... now that's more believable. Not exactly a severed thumb since it doesn't look like much (if any) bone was removed ... but that HAD to sting a little!! :eek: S&W needs to find out if this guy was shooting reloads or factory ammunition. It could make a difference to the lawsuit.

:)

Cosmoline
September 8, 2008, 02:53 PM
placed his left hand under the trigger guard

That's some lawyer spin right there. To sever a digit he had to have been practically gripping the gap.

Moreover, ANY magnum revolver or even a normal revolver can cause serious injury if you grip it there.

Hopefully S&W will stand by their guns this time around, and not repeat Ruger's mistake.

I've shot my revolvers with the same over hand grip that I shoot my semi-autos with. I didn't know it was wrong.

You're not wrong, unless you are grabbing the gap or forward of the gap.

REMEMBER THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT THE LAWYER CLAIMS HAPPENED!!

Evyl Robot
September 8, 2008, 03:08 PM
And maybe he should never be allowed to reproduce or buy any more guns.

Lucky for him, he was supporting with HIS HAND. OK. That was wrong. :uhoh:

He's only suing for a single digit.

Nice one, Antibubba.

It sounds to me like he tried to hold it like a tiny little rifle, putting his left hand where the stock would be on a rifle or Thompson Contender. Is that correct?

That's exactly what he was doing. A +70-oz handgun will tempt the subconscious into this type of misuse. I really do feel sympathetic toward him but I still think the guy should have taken the time to know his equipment better, and should not blame the manufacturer. We are having a hard time getting revolvers the way we want them anyway.

Remind me to shoot anything bigger than .44mag out of a long gun...

Are people going to start thinking this way now? Does this mean that I'll have access to a whole bunch of big-bores that will be selling for cheap? :evil:

Cosmoline
September 8, 2008, 03:20 PM
I bet you this fellow's comments over on AR15 will come back to haunt him.

I saw the pics, and I've seen worse. Much much worse. This is a flesh wound and it's bleeding nicely. Debride it, sew it up, stop infections and you're good to go with a little scar on your thumb.

SlamFire1
September 8, 2008, 03:32 PM
I have no idea if the guy pressing this lawsuit is the same as the guy who posted these pictures. This poor guy also blasted his thumb with the S&W magnum revolver.

However, if S&W put these pictures in their manual, every one would remember where not to put their support hand.


Oh fer cryin' out loud slamfire! Put thoses image behind a link and warn people. I was eating my lunch! Now I'm not.

Be warned, these pictures are not to be viewed by those who are bothered by nasty mutilated body parts!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb%20blown%20off/Thumb1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb%20blown%20off/Thumb2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb%20blown%20off/Thumb3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb%20blown%20off/Thumb4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb%20blown%20off/Thumb5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Thumb%20blown%20off/Thumb6.jpg

Hawk
September 8, 2008, 03:44 PM
I could be wrong but I believe the guy with the image that can be Googled up is not the same guy that's floated the suit.

I've only taken more than a casual interest in revolvers recently and stumbled across the gap issue more or less by accident. If memory serves, it's one of the few cases where an early episode of CSI actually got it right.

It is in the manual but another problem might be that there's no "special case" for the .460 / .500 though the results are considerably different than with the more mainstream chamberings.

It may also not help that the red text regarding the barrel / cylinder gap is not emphasized any more than the seemingly endless parade of other "red text warnings". In fact, it seems to be given the same degree of emphasis as the recommended method of dealing with a misfire. Perhaps a side effect of a litigous society but when 1/3 of the manual is already printed in red with breathless warnings, how does one make something that might sever a digit "stand out"? Day-glo orange, flashing? Red print manual warnings have taken on the aspect of "The Boy Who Cried "Wolf".

I'm old school enough that I'm of the opinion one should pay for one's own ineptitude but I don't have a warm and fuzzy about this.

At the very least I expect S&W to start including a day-glo orange sticker in each box along the lines of the warning Kimber includes regarding holding the grip safety during disassembly.

Jst1mr
September 8, 2008, 04:46 PM
It would be different if everyone knew about this kind of thing and not to hold it there, but I sure didn't and I'm sure most people don't.

Only those that read the manual or have received even the most rudimentary training before blazing away...

It may also not help that the red text regarding the barrel / cylinder gap is not emphasized any more than the seemingly endless parade of other "red text warnings

Right...how about red w/yellow stripes and green polka dots? That will differentiate it from less important things like not pointing the gun at someone else...

Rugerlvr
September 8, 2008, 05:11 PM
Oh fer cryin' out loud slamfire! Put thoses image behind a link and warn people. I was eating my lunch! Now I'm not.

Rugerlvr
September 8, 2008, 05:13 PM
I have mixed feelings about this too. I've used that self-correcting grip once before on a .38 Spl.

It stung pretty bad, but drew no blood.

I wouldn't have known about the thumb severing power of the .460 if I hadn't heard about this.

I think S&W should definitely be warning people in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. about this.

Phydeaux642
September 8, 2008, 05:39 PM
Maybe I'm smarter than your average bear (even though I didn't think that I was), but I inherently knew that I could not hold a revolver the same way that I hold an auto. The grip that I stumbled upon is the same one that most people recommend.

I think that if I were using a revolver that was so heavy that I couldn't handle it with a normal grip I would get a monopod or something to set it on when shooting it.

Jst1mr
September 8, 2008, 05:42 PM
WARNING: ALWAYS KEEP YOUR FINGERS AWAY
FROM THE AREA BETWEEN THE CYLINDER AND
THE BARREL DURING FIRING. PARTICLES AND HOT
GAS WILL BE FORCED OUT FROM BETWEEN THE BARREL
AND CYLINDER IN ANY REVOLVER DURING NORMAL USE.
FAILURE TO FOLLOW THIS WARNING WILL CAUSE SERIOUS
PERSONAL INJURY.
• Always use the proper grip as shown for a two-hand hold
(Figures 11 & 12). This keeps hands and fingers away from
the barrel/cylinder gap.
• Never allow hands or fingers to extend beyond the front of the
cylinder when firing (Figures 13 & 14). This is an improper
hold for any revolver.

I think S&W should definitely be warning people in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS. about this

Seems pretty clear to me. Now I know why a push lawnmower costs $400...because nobody thought it was unwise to stick hands and feet underneath it while running, hence that endearing "safety bar" and $50 worth of stickers.

Hawk
September 8, 2008, 06:07 PM
Right...how about red w/yellow stripes and green polka dots? That will differentiate it from less important things like not pointing the gun at someone else...

Or dealing with a misfire or storing the firearm loaded or ... There's plenty of "red text" warnings in that manual that we all routinely ignore. Also, nearly every warning, "red" or not (to include the "not pointing it at someone"), applies equally to a .32 wad cutter or .460 ninja doom round. This, however, is not the case with b/c gap effect which is roughly like a butterfly kiss in .22RF vs a plasma cutter in .460.

I'm not defending the guy or the suit but I don't find myself brimming over with confidence that a jury will share my views. I'll count myself fortunate if all that happens is a supplemental sticker or "460 / 500 specific" manual. Given the used market ("no box or papers") I wouldn't be shocked to see a billboard - if so, let's hope in on the bottom of the barrel and only stamped on the ninja-doom revolvers.

Rugerlvr
September 8, 2008, 07:29 PM
Well, the majority of guns do not maim the shooter under any circumstances. I should think S&W would KNOW this could cause this very specific problem.

I'm all for personal responsibility, but aside from the business end of ANY gun, what other guns can sever your thumb just from the way you grip it?

Rugerlvr
September 8, 2008, 07:30 PM
It makes me wonder if there's an optimal cylinder gap for shearing power, and that his gun wasn't in spec. perhaps a thousandth either way, and wouldn't have the power to sever his thumb.

rcmodel
September 8, 2008, 07:34 PM
65,000 PSI, and near 50 grains of powder!

A thousandths here, a thousandths there, ain't gonna matter!

You stick your finger in the Light Saber, it's gonna cut you bad!

rcmodel

Hawk
September 8, 2008, 08:17 PM
^---- That puts it in perspective.

Water jet cutter territory. Light saber would seem a good analogy.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 8, 2008, 08:30 PM
Did he hit the deer?


I wonder. I hope he got a ten pointer!

No, he ended up with a nine-pointer, of course!

The guy was IGNORANT, not necessarily stupid. The question, to me, is *HOW CONSPICUOUS* were the warnings in the manual? I think we all agree that he should have read the manual. But were these warnings buried in the back or in large bold letters on the first few pages, and re-emphasized a couple of times? If the latter, then I agree, he should not recover. If the former, then let the jury decide...

Friendly, Don't Fire!
September 8, 2008, 08:36 PM
In some ways....

No, let me start over. In many ways, our society has become a bunch of idiots. When they have to put a warning label on a soda bottle telling you NOT TO AIM THE BOTTLE CAP AT PEOPLE WHILE OPENING AS IT MAY CAUSE BODILY INJURY it is pathetic.

When does common sense end? Although I don't believe in Darwin, there may have been some sort of "filtering out" of the non-common sense people over the years (centuries, milleniums).

I learned as a boy, in the 60's not to place my hand and/or any of my fingers in the rotating mower cutters on the older mower and when my father finally switched to a rotary, I learned that that whirling blade could take off a hand, finger, top of sneaker, you name it! There were no guards on lawnmowers in the 60's that I can remember. I don't remember warning labels either.

I wonder how much of this actually ends up making people "stupid" or numb! I mean, really, most people don't take the time to read all the warnings anyway, and the more warnings there are, the more people are abt to ignore all of them, even when some are to be strictly heeded (like where NOT to place a finger when firing a revolver - ESPECIALLY AN EXTREMELY POWERFUL MAGNUM REVOLVER!).:uhoh:

Now, I always knew not to place my finger at the end of the muzzle when I pull the trigger! I wonder from where I learned that.

.38 Special
September 8, 2008, 08:38 PM
Well, the majority of guns do not maim the shooter under any circumstances. I should think S&W would KNOW this could cause this very specific problem.

I'm all for personal responsibility, but aside from the business end of ANY gun, what other guns can sever your thumb just from the way you grip it?

Just about any .454 should be able to manage the trick, I'd think.

As for the rest, Smith puts the warning in big bold red letters in the owner's manual. If you read the manual you see the warning. If you don't read the manual, well, bummer.

I guess Smith may feel the need to begin putting excerpts from the manual right on the side of the barrel, a la Ruger. This, IMO, is an eyesore and a constant reminder of the tiresome age in which we live.

It surprises me a bit that even some gun owners are willing to fault the gunmaker for this, but I suppose it shouldn't.

.38 Special
September 8, 2008, 08:39 PM
...I don't believe in Darwin...

I assure you, he existed.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
September 8, 2008, 08:41 PM
Quote:
The guy was IGNORANT, not necessarily stupid. The question, to me, is *HOW CONSPICUOUS* were the warnings in the manual? I think we all agree that he should have read the manual. But were these warnings buried in the back or in large bold letters on the first few pages, and re-emphasized a couple of times? If the latter, then I agree, he should not recover. If the former, then let the jury decide...
End Quote

Of course, it was on PAGE 19 of the manual, which may be the center of the manual - especially if the last half is in SPANISH!

Friendly, Don't Fire!
September 8, 2008, 08:42 PM
Let me rephraze that.

I don't believe in Darwin's philosophies.

Hawk
September 8, 2008, 10:46 PM
It surprises me a bit that even some gun owners are willing to fault the gunmaker for this, but I suppose it shouldn't.
It may not be easy to distinguish what some posters are concerned will happen with what they think should happen, but any efforts along these lines will be appreciated. I've already stated I don't agree with the guy or the suit and I weary easily of repetition. Can't speak for anyone else of course.

The guy was IGNORANT, not necessarily stupid. The question, to me, is *HOW CONSPICUOUS* were the warnings in the manual? I think we all agree that he should have read the manual. But were these warnings buried in the back or in large bold letters on the first few pages, and re-emphasized a couple of times?
Due in no small part to the influence of one Fuff, I find myself short of S&W manuals as packed with new product. However, I do have one from the model 40. Assuming it's the same manual packed with the .460, the warning regarding the barrel / cylinder gap is in the same color, typeface and accompanied by the same "Exclamation in triangle" graphic as the warnings to:

Not stage the trigger (page 20)

Never use reloads of any type, watch for bore obstructions (page 11)

Ensure the firearm is unloaded before inspecting (page 14)

Clearing misfires (page 23) Which, a cynic might note, runs directly contrary to advice routinely promolgated on this very forum ("just pull the trigger again").

The barrel / cylinder gap warning on page 19 has pictures of the right and wrong way of using a two hand hold. I believe it constitutes the only use of the "ghostbusters" graphic in the manual when illustrating the method of removing one's thumb.

I wouldn't personally consider it conspicuous by virtue of typeface, placement, color or "! graphic" but the pictures might be helpful in argument.

The_Antibubba
September 9, 2008, 02:42 AM
On the other hand, "vampire bites" from semiautos are common and I don't see much about that


Hadn't thought about that, I should sue the piss out of the mfr of my hi-power....


If you do ANYTHING to defame the good name of John Moses Browning, you shall forevermore be consigned to load each round singly. :cuss:


;)

Seven For Sure
September 9, 2008, 09:26 AM
What happens when you fire a revolver from inside a coat pocket? That always comes up as an advantage for a revolver when a revolver vs. auto for SD argument comes up.

Hawk
September 9, 2008, 10:48 AM
What happens when you fire a revolver from inside a coat pocket? That always comes up as an advantage for a revolver when a revolver vs. auto for SD argument comes up.

Although I had severe misgivings concerning that "advantage" I would suppose that the typical standard pressure .38 special "pocket round" would be considerably more benign than the .460. My guess is "pocket shot" conjecture wouldn't involve anything more than .357 magnum.

Also, it was pointed out to me that my concerns over the family jewels substituting for the dude's thumb were unfounded if the pocket in question was held sufficiently away from one's person. However, it still has to be close enough to not appear obvious as "stealth" was the entire point of the enterprise. My imagination fails in visualizing "close enough for stealth but far enough to not turn me from a rooster to a hen" so I abandoned the attempt. My failure of imagination may be related to not having worn a trenchcoat since I left New York.

Personally, I'd prefer that "ok to shoot from pocket" be forever banished from "revolver love" threads by voluntary assent of the participants but I don't see that happening.

One might wonder if internet threads mentioning pocket shooting would lead a noob to conclude that b/c gap is a non-issue much like the other manual warnings that we routinely imply may be ignored with impunity but I seriously doubt that anyone deriving safety procedures from revolver "love" or "versus" threads (or any intertubz background chatter) will retain all his digits anyway.

Bezoar
September 9, 2008, 12:29 PM
legally speaking SW is clearly in the safe and clear here. the manual specifically says do not expose any part of the shooters body, or bystanders near or on the cylinder gap as the gas and lead particles coming out act like a buzz saw on soft tissue if your close enough.

and if i remember right theres several warning stickers printed in red ink in the smith manual that says anyone who disregards the warnings in the manual, and does not follow them is on their own and last i checked use of the firearm by user means that the user absolves the maker of all damages property and personal that may happen from misusing the firearm.

Elbert P . Suggins
September 9, 2008, 12:39 PM
I had a Uberti made Colt 44 Walker which some of you know packs quite a punch with black powder. A used cap became lodged in between the cylinder and the frame when I pulled the hammer back to fire it again. A live round was underneath the hammer which was locked up between half and full cocked. In the process of trying to free it in this dangerous situation with the muzzle down range it freed and the hammer dropped on a live cap while my left hand was around the cylinder. I recieved a deep cut almost to the bone on my thumb with bad burns in two other areas on my palm. After getting stitched and evaluating it, I blame absolutely nobody but myself. C and B's are a lot of fun but they are a completely different breed of cat when a jam occurrs in this fashion.

Rugerlvr
September 9, 2008, 12:40 PM
legally speaking SW is clearly in the safe and clear here.

In a perfect world yes. Unfortunately juries decide product liability cases if they get to a trial. Juries have a notorious habit of ignoring the law.

ultralightbackpacker
September 9, 2008, 01:31 PM
Interesting read.

Lets say I have a 357 mag in 2" snub form and I was pointing it a a bad guy from within my jacket pocket just a few inches out from my belly/side. Would would happen to me in said case if it were fired in the pocket then? Burns on hand or worse?

rcmodel
September 9, 2008, 01:44 PM
The worst I know of is, you set the pocket on fire.
And your jacket would have a bullet hole in it.

It's not like the flame reaches across vast distances.

The initial high-pressure blast right next to the gap is dispersed within a very few inches.

rcmodel

Evyl Robot
September 9, 2008, 04:34 PM
What happens when you fire a revolver from inside a coat pocket? That always comes up as an advantage for a revolver when a revolver vs. auto for SD argument comes up.

I would like to see the coat from whose pocket you could physically fire a .460! Let me know how that turns out for you! :what:

--Michael

Hawk
September 9, 2008, 04:57 PM
I would like to see the coat from whose pocket you could physically fire a .460! Let me know how that turns out for you!

Mr. Bananaman had such pockets.

Let's see who here is old enough to remember that guy from Captain Kangaroo.

XDKingslayer
September 9, 2008, 05:49 PM
Next year he'll sue Hanes because he had to take off his socks to count the points on his 10 point buck and got frostbite.

Gibbles
September 9, 2008, 06:03 PM
And this is why they put those ugly Read owners manual markings on a nice pretty gun... :cuss:

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
September 9, 2008, 10:01 PM
And this is why they put those ugly Read owners manual markings on a nice pretty gun...

One can put instructions all over the gun or on a piece of paper, but people still have to read them.

evan price
September 10, 2008, 12:54 AM
Once upon a time I was out at a buddy's farm plinking out in the fields and saw a groundhog pop up out of a drain tile a good distance away. I had my .357 Colt in my hand, and without thinking, I took my left hand and gripped my right forearm, and braced the barrel across my left forearm and took the shot.
I still have a green work shirt with a blackened area on the left bicep.
Stoopid. My fault entirely.
Oh, yeah, I dropped the groundhog.

U.S.SFC_RET
September 10, 2008, 07:31 AM
I am willing to bet that this fellow hardly shot revolvers before. never knew that "exploding" gas from the cylinder gap will cut and coming from a big revolver? Couple that with inexperience and you get injuries.

Master Blaster
September 10, 2008, 09:53 AM
When you buy any dangerous object such as a car, a motorcycle, a power tool, a boat, a gun etc. You have an obligation to yourself and others to read the manual that comes with it, and understand the safety warnings and the operation of the device.
If you are not capable of taking on the responsibilty of reading the manual, you probably shouldn't own the device. The gun is a lump of metal it has no brain, that means you must understand how to use it safely. Unfortunately many folks have gone out and bought a revolver like the .460 which is an expert's tool not for the novice or the unitiated to buy as a first gun, and it is their first gun, and they dont have a clue how to safely operate it.

Lately we have had 8 motorcycle deaths in our area, all were young men who had bought a racing bike with no understanding of how to ride it and then gone out and ridden at night at over 100 miles per hour.
That is what this guy did, he is responsible for his injury not S&W, or anyone else.

If he had taken 10 minutes to skim the manual he would have seen the warning in idiot pictures. But he did not. The result is that he lost his thumb, he got off easy. Revolvers have alwasys worked this way. Even my 10 and 12 year old children know about the barrel cylinder gap on the .22's they shoot.

Perhaps S&W should have a picture of a severed thumb engraved on the side plate to avoid future injuries by idiots? No I dont think so the manual has an adequate warning. When ever you invent an idiot proof device, along comes a better idiot.

Virginian
September 10, 2008, 11:48 AM
The jury is going to give the guy a boatload of money is my bet. It's the un-official lottery. Someday, you may be the 'lucky' plaintiff in a lawsuit. It is the age of personal irresponsibility. Right, wrong, and justice have nothing to do with anything. This is America in the 21st century. Get used to it.

Ohen Cepel
September 10, 2008, 11:57 AM
This is a good reason for everyone with some common sense to sit on a jury!

Hopefully, a few smart responsible people will see to it that this guy gets nothing from his stupidity.

zxcvbob
September 10, 2008, 12:11 PM
Can S&W waive their right to a jury and go for a bench trial? Assuming it gets that far?

Stainz
September 10, 2008, 12:24 PM
In the current universal edition of the 'Safety and Instruction Manual', REV_091207', it does caution, in bold red, on pg 17 & 19 not to put anything you value near the b/c gap. Of course on the bottom of pg 18 is my favorite caution - in bold red:

WARNING: THE REVOLVER WILL FIRE IF THE TRIGGER IS PULLED!

Gotta wonder...

Stainz

woad_yurt
September 10, 2008, 12:46 PM
I agree that the warning should be clearly & prominently displayed in the manual, and it seems like it was, but where is the line, regarding power levels and liability? A .44 magnum will mess you up if you do the same thing, so will a .357. Even a .22 expels the gases from the gap. I have heard of no lawsuits stemming from lower powered guns and cylinder gap injuries.

Compare it to a car. On the one hand, we have a 1956 VW Beetle which has 36 HP (I believe) and a new 'Vette, which is a real rocket. If someone loses control of the Beetle, will VW be free from liability while Chevy is held liable when someone loses control of the 'Vette?

Is a finish nailer injury is the user's fault while a framing nailer injury becomes the manufacturer's fault?

In short, where would the liability-shift-from-user-to-manufacturer line be? I wish I was on that jury. He wouldn't get a penny.

To S&W: Please don't settle this out of court. I'm begging here.

rcmodel
September 10, 2008, 01:11 PM
Lately we have had 8 motorcycle deaths in our area, all were young men who had bought a racing bike with no understanding of how to ride itI was thinking the exact same thing yesterday when reading this thread.

I live in a college town, and there isn't a summer goes by without some young stud with daddies credit card killing himself on a crotch-rocket first bike.

Shorts & sandals with no helmet are de rigueur riding apparel, and darting through traffic like a spastic rabbit in heat is the prescribed riding style!

Some 18 year old splattered himself like a bug riding a two day old Suzuki Hayabusa last summer.
His first motorcycle, and it has a power to weight ratio of 2 1/2 pounds per horsepower, will run 150 in the quarter mile, and top out at 186 MPH! :eek:

I see this as no different then the .460 S&W revolver.

You got to learn to walk before you run!
If you don't, it's not someone else's fault when you fall down.

rcmodel

Hawk
September 10, 2008, 01:26 PM
If I were S&W I'd be feeling a little breeze across the nether regions due in part to the observation that all the warnings generally apply to the 617 and 460XVR equally - except for that barrel/cylinder gap thing.

The gap flash warning provided with the XVR is the exact same warning provided with the 617 but the results of non-compliance are not similar. This is not a comfortable observation in a climate where we have sites such as http://www.stellaawards.com/

What's right and / or proper may have very little to do with an outcome here.

I wonder who else is watching? Doesn't Taurus have a raging something or other in 500S&W? Then there's a fair load of factory and custom single actions chambered for various high pressure rounds. I wonder about fallout for others should S&W take it in the shorts with this thing.

I also wonder if the suit goes to jury will it automatically be where filed (Texarcana)? That might be a little ray of hope. At least it isn't San Francisco or Boston. 'Course it's not central Montana or Alaska either, which I might prefer.

More conjecture / theater of the far-fetched: Would S&W be at greater risk than, say Taurus, with the same round due to S&W buying out Thompson-Center in '06? S&W already had a hunting handgun suitable for 460 pressure levels with no gap flash problem which other wheelgun manufacturers didn't have as part of an existing product line. Can't see this being brought up - a discussion of follow-up shots would make a jury's eyes glaze over...

Rugerlvr
September 10, 2008, 01:38 PM
The gap flash warning provided with the XVR is the exact same warning provided with the 617 but the results of non-compliance are not similar.

This is exactly how they're going to get nailed. I'm a little bit shocked that they didn't see this coming.

crebralfix
September 10, 2008, 01:43 PM
He should sue the government too...S&W CANNOT put a forearm or vertical foregrip on that revolver because a stupid government regulation says that it would be a rifle.

Sir Ocelot
September 10, 2008, 01:44 PM
S&W may be open to attack on the issue of whether the design problem was both forseeable and preventable; obviously they foresaw it -- hence the warning in the manual -- and we have the Nagant as an example of a commonly available revolver that has no cylinder gap while firing.

TEDDY
September 10, 2008, 08:22 PM
revolvers in the early 1800s had a habit of firing off more than one chamber and that was the reason that the colt revoling rifle was distrusted and the shooter made sure his support arm was not in front of the cylinder.so things have changed have they?
I had a remington 44 fire 3 chambers.very interesting.I hhad learned long before to keep my hands away from the front.frankly if I wanted a rifle I would buy a rifle.45 colt is enough as I dont want a future with damaged bones in my wrist.:uhoh::rolleyes:

The_Antibubba
September 11, 2008, 03:35 AM
Maybe S&W can find someone to testify that the man's thumb was already loose when the accident occurred. Or maybe that he read on a gun forum how holding your hand over the cylinder acts like a suppressor*.










*It doesn't. Do you REALLY need to be told that?

tipoc
September 11, 2008, 02:30 PM
By Glenn Bartley;

Are you still not getting it? Look at where he says he rested the revolver. THE WINDOW of the deer stand. Makes one wonder, at least it makes me wonder (and I am one) if the window had glass in it, and if the glass was blown out and severed his finger, or if there was a window latch on which he caught his finger and severed it, or if wood splintered and that caused the finger to be severed, or if the recoil made the window slam shut on his finger severing it, etc....

Deer stands have windows that you can shoot through, there is no glass in them. A deer stand is usually built at some elevation off the ground. You climb up into them and wait for a deer. The stands may be open or enclosed. May have windows. But never glass windows as you could not shoot through them.

Lord, it's surprising how many folks here don't know or did not know that the hot gasses and particles of unburnt powder, etc. from the barrel to cylinder gap can burn ya. It's also a bit surprising for folks to ask for pics of correct ways to hold a revolver which means that they don't know. It's not surprising that many folks don't know just a bit surprising that fellas who come to an internet forum on revolvers haven't already taken the time to find out.

This suit is a nuiscence suit. Designed to be settled out of court where the fella gets a few bucks so that S&W doesn't have to spend a lot of money on lawyers. The man has no case.

tipoc

Hawk
September 11, 2008, 03:54 PM
Lord, it's surprising how many folks here don't know or did not know that the hot gasses and particles of unburnt powder, etc. from the barrel to cylinder gap can burn ya.

False dichotomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). I'd suspect plenty that knew the b/c flash could hurt may have been mildly surprised to learn that it could also sever a digit.

...just a bit surprising that fellas who come to an internet forum on revolvers haven't already taken the time to find out.
I find that very interesting. While I would tend to agree that an internet forum is not a good place to go to first learn about revolvers I always thought that mine was a minority view. I've read plenty of comments to the effect of "If I need to know that sort of stuff I trust the members of THR more than the print rags".

I would have thought that a noob coming to the revolver forum would be quite normal.

I should hasten to add that the THR revolver forum is a great place to learn such things. My only caveat is that it involves a two-part education with the first part learning to differentiate between the Fuffs and Dfariswheels on the on hand and the random posters here only because the counterstrike servers are down on the other hand. Once that's done, there's a wealth of great information to be had. I suppose the preceeding is its own false dichotomy: there's plenty of area between the old masters and the counterstrikers - in fact, I suppose most of us fall "betwixt and between" the extremes.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
September 11, 2008, 05:24 PM
Maybe the guy thought, if he holds the left cylinder gap, the bullet goes more to the right, and if he holds the right cylinder gap, the bullet goes more to the left!:rolleyes:

tipoc
September 11, 2008, 06:10 PM
Hawk, there is no false dichotomy. I did not say I was surprised that some folks didn't know a thumb, or part of one anyways, could be blown off by BC gap. I said I was a bit surprised by folks at a wheelgun forum who did not know they could be burnt by it. When you look at the posts a significant number of posters did not know that the gases from the BC gap can burn you, period, from any revolver. This includes quite a few with a number of prior posts. That was and is the only thing surprising to me from this thread.

There is nothing disrespectful or dismissive to new shooters about this observation.

For two generations shooters have been losing pieces of their digits or burning gaps into their hands from BC gap of the .357 Magnum and the 44 Magnum. For 150 years or more folks have burnt themselves lightly from the same on any number of guns including .22s. (There have also been numerous discussions over the years on burns from ported revolvers and autos). It stands to reason then that the more powerful the round the bigger the burn.

THR, and other forums are a useful place for learning a number of things about guns. But the basics are best learnt elsewhere. Particularly from a basic firearms class. If a shooter is new to guns there is no substitute for that and most particularly not an internet forum.

For generations good basic books on shooting, including the proper grip to assume on a gun, have been published. The NRA distributes a good many. It is a little surprising to me how many folks overlook these low priced and invaluable resources for acquiring basic knowledge. The downside to forums such as THR are the large number of yahoos. It can take longer for a new shooter to pick up useful information due to that. Nothing can be done about that but to patiently explain.

I've read plenty of comments to the effect of "If I need to know that sort of stuff I trust the members of THR more than the print rags".

This can be true depending on the "stuff" a fella wants to know. It's always useful for shooters, new or otherwise to read fellas like Ed McGivern, Charles Askins, Bill Jordan, Chic Gaylord, and others on the basics like grip and sight picture, trigger pull, etc. There is no shortcut, when it comes to basics, to the work of reading and studying and taking a few classes. Maybe that is what I lament that for some serious study has given way to the desire to become an "expert" quickly. For others though the internet can be a starting point for that study.

tipoc

JERRY
September 11, 2008, 07:26 PM
so Klinton&Wesson will have the lawyer lock and the Ruger Bill board on their guns now?

Hawk
September 11, 2008, 09:13 PM
I said I was a bit surprised by folks at a wheelgun forum who did not know they could be burnt by it. When you look at the posts a significant number of posters did not know that the gases from the BC gap can burn you, period, from any revolver.

Ah, I see. I was guessing there were more that were neither all the way ignorant of the effect or exhibited no surprise whatsoever but I'd have to concede I didn't go back and do a count.

Personally, I don't think I ever gave the issue much thought - I'd been "kissed" by a Super Blackhawk in the next lane over early on and remember thinking how rare and special it was that CSI actually got it right in an episode featuring gap flash burn but if I was being honest with myself I'd admit to a degree of surprise with how much more an XVR brought to the table in that regard.

I still hate unmeritorious lawsuits.

fizik
September 11, 2008, 11:41 PM
if the gases cut or blew his thumb off, there wouldn't likely be blood spraying, it would have sliced it and cauterized the wound. This guy's BS on so many levels. At least that's what seems logical to me. :shrug:

Hawk
September 12, 2008, 08:32 AM
^--- If you've a strong stomach, check the pics linked in post #69. There will be no difficulty in picturing blood. Simultaneous cut and cauterize takes the light saber analogy a step too far, IMHO.

Mannlicher
September 12, 2008, 11:45 AM
Severed the thumb? Spare me!!

Stainz
September 12, 2008, 12:28 PM
No matter the warnings, someone will be careless - and get hurt. It's like another one of my long term hobbies - woodworking. Like the motorcycles, you cannot make dangerous devices inherently safe, it defies logic to try to do so.

We all recall the tragic 'Seinfeld' episode where his friend George lost his fiance - toxic shock from licking wedding invitation envelopes... the horror!

Re the b/c gap blast... once upon a time, at an indoor range about to go under, they told me it was okay to shoot my .454 SRH... bad idea. I stood to the right in my shooting booth - so my wife could try to get a picture of my shooting it. The muzzle was out far enough, but the b/c gap flash ignited the sound deadening material. With the gale force wind of their exhaust fan, I had a heck of a time putting the smoldering insulation out.

Don't do this. I'd never do this with a Magnum load, but a .45 ACP/.45 Colt or .38/.44 Special was illuminating enough. At an outdoor range, I draped a clean shop towel over the top of the revolver - leaving the muzzle clear, of course. I also taped a cloth in front of the muzzle on the bench. Shooting my old powders (W231) vs new - Titegroup - left particulate matter - unburnt powder - in the smoked b/c areas on the towel and in front of the muzzle with the old, just grey-ish smoked stains with the Titegroup. I couldn't believe what one shot left on the b/c drape with the older powder. My b/c gaps are .004-.006". I have used Titegroup for over five years now. Again - take my word - don't do this.

Stainz

PS Even my 1895 Nagants - with modified .32-20 brass - spits at the b/c gap. That gap closes just before the fp finds it's way through the breech block to the round's primer, the convex, ie, inverted, forcing cone finding it's way into the concave cylinder chamber exits. Without the proper 7.62x38r brass's long nose 'bridging the closed gap', even they can still spit.

tipoc
September 12, 2008, 02:09 PM
When Bob Munden, the exhibition shooter and quick draw artist, puts on his shows he wears a shirt with a patch of leather sewn onto the shirt in the area directly above his holster. He draws and fires from the hip. The leather patch prevents the gasses from the BC gap from burning a hole in his shirts.

A link was posted above to one of several You Tube videos floating around the tube o sphere where folks cut hot dogs and sausages and such by holding them up next to the gun and letting the gasses from the gap burn and cut them.

tipoc

jjohnson
September 12, 2008, 03:30 PM
Oh, nice. And I just had lunch.:barf:

Hey, nice to see somebody had the guts to put the "real thing" in the post AND was kind enough to mark it as graphic. Fair warning, just like the firearm manufacturer.

I suppose now everyone who cut themselves with anything from a grapefruit spoon to a chainsaw will want to line up to sue, too. :fire:

Who is it on TV that said it - is it Red Green - "Life is dangerous."

soulless80
September 14, 2008, 12:54 AM
some people should stick to water guns

GEM
September 14, 2008, 12:48 PM
SW will probably try to settle quitely out of court.

If they do go to trial, the dude might lose if the jury is convinced he is stupid. Might get a gun friendly crowd in his area.

However, SW might give him a buck or two after to prevent appeals and yapping. Ruger has done that even when they win in similar stupid user cases.

BTW, I was in Cabelas and some poor schmuck was going to bear country wanted a handgun and the clerk was trying to sell him some gigantic 460 that looked like a Buck Rogers gizmo with fins on it. The dude had never shot a gun. The clerk told him that he owned one but had never used it to 'harvest' game yet but it was dead accurate a distance (macho talk for poor dude). Maybe the bear will just stop to eat his thumb when it flies off.

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
September 14, 2008, 01:17 PM
Maybe the bear will just stop to eat his thumb when it flies off.

Gem, now that is gem!:evil:

papajohn
September 14, 2008, 06:01 PM
Lawsuits like this remind me why Shakespeare was right. Any lawyer willing to take a case like this should be dis-barred on the spot. But until we get judges with the cojones to throw this kind of idiocy out, common sense is DOOMED.

This moronic plaintiff went out and bought the latest gee-whiz contraption he could find, failed to read the instruction manual, and did something even dumber than that. He bought the largest deadly weapon he could lift, held it wrong, and lost the tip of his thumb. If he'd done the same thing with a chainsaw, would he be suing?

Remember the guy who shot himself six times in the head with a nailgun, and lived? Nearly everyone's seen that X-ray by now. I wonder if he sued the nailgun maker, for manufacturing something so dangerous?

It's really too bad this cretin didn't put his face next to his $1800 toy, to hear what it sounded like up close.:rolleyes:

Maybe I should sue Ford for making that car that ran over me when I was a kid, or Schwinn for making the bike I was on. Or the paving contractor for making the road we were on. Or......

You get the idea.

PJ

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 14, 2008, 10:57 PM
Such vitriol and outright hatred of a guy just because he's ignorant of a revolver's functioning? I must admit that's rather confusing.

It's really too bad this cretin didn't put his face next to his $1800 toy, to hear what it sounded like up close

So you're saying he deserves to DIE just because he's ignorant of the cylinder gap blast and bought a highly-marketed gun to hunt with? Really? Are you ya know, INSANE? Not only is that extraordinarily un-highroad, it just makes no sense. So the guy is ignorant - he deserves to die? Do you have any idea how dumb-redneck that sounds? Get a grip.

Lawsuits like this remind me why Shakespeare was right. Any lawyer willing to take a case like this should be dis-barred on the spot.

Now that's funny too - the lawyers should be disbarred for taking a case which the LAW specifically allows them to pursue on behalf of their client? The law, after all, in the vast majority of states, says that there is strict liability for "unreasonably dangerous" products. Blame the state of the LAW, not the litigants, and espec. not the lawyers who simply pursue what the law allows them too. Blame YOURSELF for voting the politicians into place which MADE the LAW. The lawyers are just doing their job, pursing claims which the law allows them to pursue. If it was or is non-meritorious, it will be thrown out of court forthwith. Obviously it's arguable on the current status of the LAW, so that's why the suit was brought. It's for the jury to decide, unless it settles, as to what is and what is not "unreasonably dangerous" , based on all the facts and circumstances, including most notably, the warnings in the manual.

Someone asked if S&W can waive their right to a jury and let the judge try the facts - they answer is yes they can but it won't matter because rest assured that Plaintiff will not waive that right to a jury trial, and both sides have to waive for that to happen, unless the law specifically prescribes this type of case to be heard by the judge, which it doesn't.

1858
September 14, 2008, 11:21 PM
This case, like many others will come down to what can/should an individual/company reasonably do to prevent their products from causing injury. We can all think of hundreds of situations in every day life where a real chance of injury exists if proper care isn't taken. Firearms are potentially dangerous and if care isn't taken, accidents happen. Think about all of the accidental discharges that occur each year and the injuries that result from them. How many of those end up in court? Think of all the fingers and thumbs removed by table saws. Table saws have provisions in place to REDUCE the chance of injury but those measures can be bypassed. Is the company now liable because their saw still works after the end user has removed the blade guard? Is a car manufacturer liable because an individual crashed into a tree driving 100 mph. Some might argue that the car shouldn't be able to go 100 mph and therefore the manufacturer is responsible. Sadly, in this country there's no reason not to sue since the plaintiff has nothing to lose. In the UK, if you lose a lawsuit, the judge/jury can order you to pay the defendant the amount you were suing for. That would go a long way to dissuade frivolous lawsuits.

A couple of years ago my brother was pruning a tree in his garden and fell off a step ladder he was using. He managed to fall onto the step ladder and broke three of his ribs. The doctor told him that he was lucky that his ladder was made in China because it buckled thereby reducing his injuries. According to the doctor, if it hadn't buckled the fall would have killed him. Ladders come with all kinds of warning signs intended to reduce injuries but people get killed every year using them. My brother was an idiot and the same can be said of the man who lost the tip of his thumb. The difference is, my brother didn't try to blame his ignorance or stupidity on someone else.

:)

If you enjoyed reading about "Revolver cylinder gap gas severs thumb, now shooter sues S&W" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!