SBR, Suppressor, or SBS? Too Many Choices!?


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Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 7, 2008, 01:02 PM
I'm finally going to do it!! Taking the NFA plunge!! A suppressor is high on the list, but so is an SBR. The SBS is not really looking all that viable at the moment, as I have plans for a future Saiga SBS project one day when funds allow.

Now to the SBR issue at hand. I am attempting to do this SBR the smartest way possible, and here is the thing. Do I register my Bushmaster rifle, or do I register my AR-pistol:confused: ? If I SBR the rifle, since these are the only two AR's that I own, that would(???should???) allow me to then possess uppers in any barrel length I choose to swap out on both platforms; as the AR-pistol is already legal with any barrel length, and once registered, so will the SBR.

Or do I register the pistol, and then simply add a stock after I get the stamp back? I won't be able to possess extra uppers if I go this route however.

If I do option one, and start gathering multiple short uppers after registration, all future AR rifle purchases would have to be SBR's or I'll have to get rid of the extra uppers to be in compliance. Option two would give me one SBR, and one rifle, with no AR-pistol; and I want the pistol.

So considering I plant to accumulate more AR's anyway, does option one make the most sense?

Still 2 Many Choices!?

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Javelin
September 7, 2008, 01:18 PM
Well Still 2 Many Choices,

You cannot SBR anything originally manufactured as a Pistol (so your AR pistol lower will never be able to have a stock on it).
If your heart is set on an AR build SBR (and it is a good choice IMO) then my advice would be to pick the lower you feel you like the best and send in for the ATF tax stamp. You can then place any upper you want on it. Put the barrel length and overall length on the form of the set-up you will most likely have. It does not matter which caliber you place on the form (.223, 9mm, .308) just put the one that you will most likely have on hand first.

Past that the ATF does not care which caliber upper you place on it and no letter is required (now) to change the upper (hope I am making sense). The AR build SBR is a lego gun and the ATF understands this so they are very lax on the overall specs. They just require you are specific in the approval form. Past that you can modify it however you like.

:)

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 7, 2008, 01:44 PM
Javelin, thx for the response but I believe you are incorrect. If I was to add a stock to my Glock 23, which they do make, I would have created an SBR. You can certainly change a pistol into an SBR, just have to have the form 1/tax stamp first.

jpatterson
September 7, 2008, 01:58 PM
http://www.black-guns.com/870SBS%20Wood.jpg

Javelin
September 7, 2008, 01:59 PM
Javelin, thx for the response but I believe you are incorrect. If I was to add a stock to my Glock 23, which they do make, I would have created an SBR. You can certainly change a pistol into an SBR, just have to have the form 1/tax stamp first.


You can try I guess. I would just advise you in letting them know that your registration of a Short Barreled Rifle is actually manufactured originally as a pistol.

CDignition
September 7, 2008, 02:36 PM
Do em all..;) get out the CC and let it melt a little.. A one man economy fluff,lol

W.E.G.
September 7, 2008, 02:54 PM
You don't need that stuff.

Now, get outside and paint the porch.

Taurus44
September 7, 2008, 03:15 PM
You can SBR a pistol, and once you have an SBR you CAN have multiple (short) uppers. Just do NOT put one of those short uppers on your non-registered lower!

The easiest route would be to SBR your pistol. Get the lower engraved and send in your forms. Once you get the stamp back, throw a stock on that bad-boy and roll! In the meantime, you can collect all the short uppers you want since your gun is already registered as a pistol.

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 7, 2008, 03:51 PM
Thx everyone, and W.E.G; as we all know,"need" is very subjective ;) . Besides, I havent made any major firearms purchases since the DSA FAL, and I know you approved of that one :D ! So before Xmas my revised short list for firearms is to SBR something, then save for an Xmas suppressor. Quite the stocking stuffer I know :evil: !!!

Halo is for Kids
September 7, 2008, 04:24 PM
If my state was friendly to the idea here's what I would do about it...

I would register a multi caliber marked lower just in case.

I would make sure the lower is of outstanding quality (that sucker's going to have to last)

This is what I had in mind:
http://www.pof-usa.com/lower_receiver/POF-USA%20LOWER3.jpg

Javelin
September 7, 2008, 04:28 PM
If my state was friendly to the idea here's what I would do about it...

I would register a multi caliber marked lower just in case.

I would make sure the lower is of outstanding quality (that sucker's going to have to last)






The ATF has been rejecting Form 1 applications with more than one caliber noted. They want one and one only. If it is an AR they don't care what caliber you do after it is approved.

If you have a non-AR platform and you would like to change the firearm (ie barrel length, overall length of the stock, caliber, etc). You can send them a letter explaining exactly what you are wanting to do and they will update the NFA database.

:)

Halo is for Kids
September 7, 2008, 04:36 PM
The ATF has been rejecting Form 1 applications with more than one caliber noted.
-well I sure am glad that's the case. I'll sleep a little sounder tonight knowing I'm safe from hard core criminals with registered multi calliber sbr's.:neener:

Conqueror
September 7, 2008, 06:30 PM
You can absolutely register a pistol as an SBR, it is done all the time and javelin is 100% incorrect.

Also, if you have a single SBR lower - REGARDLESS of whether it was a pistol or a rifle first - you can own as many short uppers as your heart desires. The only requirement is that you keep the original upper to match the specs on the Form 1. If you ever sell that original upper you must notify ATF of the new specs so they can update the registry.

Conqueror
September 7, 2008, 06:32 PM
Also: I would get a suppressor first. I'm glad I did. Unless you're clearing houses, you don't urgently need that extra few inches of rifle maneuverability. But a suppressor is good for your health and can benefit everyone.

Javelin
September 7, 2008, 06:34 PM
You can absolutely register a pistol as an SBR, it is done all the time and javelin is 100% incorrect.

Ok I am 100% incorrect. I tried when I was originally trying to order one from RRA CLIII department and was told no to the SBR'ing of pistols due to ATF regulations.... I probably should just call the BATFE myself to get the scoop but that SBR is already done.

You guys just do whatever you can get away with while you can get away with it as I stopped trying to understand the BATFE and their ever-changing proceedures. :D My advice is only current personal experience through June 08.

Also, if you have a single SBR lower - REGARDLESS of whether it was a pistol or a rifle first - you can own as many short uppers as your heart desires. The only requirement is that you keep the original upper to match the specs on the Form 1. If you ever sell that original upper you must notify ATF of the new specs so they can update the registry.

And didn't I already say this?:confused:

Javelin
September 7, 2008, 06:47 PM
-well I sure am glad that's the case. I'll sleep a little sounder tonight knowing I'm safe from hard core criminals with registered multi calliber sbr's.


I think its because they can only select one caliber for the NFA database.

rob_s
September 7, 2008, 08:19 PM
I'd get he SBR and then the can. A can on a 16"+ barrel is pointless IMHO. The entire point of buying an SBR for me was to attach a can to and not have it be obnoxiously long and unwieldy.

SBR with can on top, virtually identical AR with 16" barrel on the bottom
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/DSC_1762-Small.jpg

Same two guns, less the can on the SBR
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Both-01.jpg

rfurtkamp
September 7, 2008, 08:50 PM
Ok I am 100% incorrect. I tried when I was originally trying to order one from RRA CLIII department and was told no to the SBR'ing of pistols due to ATF regulations.... I probably should just call the BATFE myself to get the scoop but that SBR is already done.


ATF does not care whether it was a rifle, pistol, or a lump of clay. The restriction on conversion is for AOWs, not SBR/SBS/DD. Those may never have had a stock on.

Half the reason certain 'pistols' are sold these days are for people to SBR - the HK-51/53/33/MP5 clones, Sig 556 pistol, etc come to mind.

Nobody really wants a 8 pound metal pistol firing rifle rounds.

http://robert.furtkamp.com/guns/nfafamily-web.jpg

All were pistols once.

Javelin
September 7, 2008, 08:54 PM
All were pistols once.

All are pre or post '86 AOW too.

rfurtkamp
September 7, 2008, 08:56 PM
All are pre or post '86 AOW too


As the manufacturer of all 3 above, they were pistols when I started. Never AOW.

wdlsguy
September 7, 2008, 09:17 PM
Pre- or post-1986 is only significant in the context of machineguns.

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 7, 2008, 09:34 PM
Conqueror- I plan to go with the SBR route first for a few simple reasons though. First, I alrady own the pistol AR, so when I get the stamp back I can use the 10" upper until I find a dedicated upper for the SBR. Second, the cost is only $200 for the stamp(see reason one above) as opposed to upwards of 400 for suppressor, then $200 more for the stamp. Last, if I got the can first, I would still need gunsmithing to remove the permanently attached AK muzzle brake before I could mount a quick detach system.

mgregg85
September 7, 2008, 09:38 PM
I have a nasty craving for a Tromix Saiga SBS, I wish they were legal here in MI.

Conqueror
September 7, 2008, 10:08 PM
All are pre or post '86 AOW too.

Negative. First, as wdlsguy mentioned, 1986 only matters for machine guns, not any other NFA item. Second, AOWs cannot have a shoulder stock, which all of those do. They are stocked weapons with OAL under 26" or barrel under 16" and are therefore defined as SBRs.

Girodin
September 8, 2008, 01:53 AM
I'm SBRing my gsg-5P. The major, if not only, reason they make those things is to SBR them.

While I dont have the stamp yet I have never heard before that SBRing a pistol was a problem and I have seen SBRs that started life as pistols.

After the SBR I plan to get a suppresor as well.

Javelin
September 8, 2008, 07:34 PM
UPDATE:

RRA told me wrong (which really pisses me off on so many levels) that you cannot SBR a pistol. Which probably would have saved me some cash.

But whatever it is not anything new in my life as of late.

SBR'ing your GSG is a good idea. I have one of those too but still looking for a collapsible stock. I think I am up to over a grand in tax stamps this year alone.... once you get bit you get bit.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 8, 2008, 07:44 PM
I'd go with a Suppressor first.

Javelin
September 8, 2008, 07:56 PM
I'd go with a Suppressor first.

I have to agree. I'm not too crazy about them but either one of these from SWR would be my recommendation. Top is the SWR Trident-9 (9mm) and the bottom is the SWR Spectre (FN5.7mm, .17HMR, .17Mach2, .22LR, .22MAG). Pretty versitile and both are arguably one of the finest suppressors on the market. Just do your research and see what you really want first and go from there.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3892/mytwoswrsuppressorsdq0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Of course when you begin getting SBRs, suppressors, AOW you can't stop with just one.

:)

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 9, 2008, 11:05 AM
you guys have been a big help. In order to move forward I could use some info. Who qualifies for the CLEO sign off? I remember that the prosecuting D.A. qualifies. Obviously the Cheif of police does. Any one else?

Do I just call up and ask for the sign off, or is there a procedure that would help assure a good first impression, and secure my sign off?

rob_s
September 9, 2008, 11:13 AM
Ask around your local area and CIII dealers to see who they suggest you get to sign. I'd start with the sheriff, and if he signs you're good to go. If not, you can start hunting.

PPGMD
September 9, 2008, 11:54 AM
Just go the trust route and skip the begging for a signature.

wdlsguy
September 9, 2008, 05:45 PM
Who qualifies for the CLEO sign off?
From the instructions for Form 1:
The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police for the makerís city or town of residence, the Sheriff for the makerís county of residence; the Head of the State Police for the makerís State of residence; a State or local district attorney or prosecutor having jurisdiction in the makerís area of residence; or another person whose certifcation is acceptable to the Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives.

Do I just call up and ask for the sign off, or is there a procedure that would help assure a good first impression, and secure my sign off?
In general I would suggest showing up in person with your paperwork ready to sign. Dress neatly as you want to create a good first impression.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 9, 2008, 06:01 PM
By the way, this guy has very good prices on Suppressors and other NFA stuff, AND he does the trust for you if you buy a suppressor from him:

http://www.major-malfunction.com/

Beren
September 9, 2008, 10:22 PM
If it's not too late and within your financial means, consider saving up and doing both the SBR and suppressor at the same time. It takes a few months for the paperwork to clear, and it then it'll all just be done.

Regarding paperwork: consider going the trust or LLC route. It will save headaches and speed up the approval time.

If you must go as an individual:

* Make sure all your forms are typed or computer-generated.

* Prepare a cover letter addressed to your CLEO, briefly stating who you are, what you want from him, and what it means. (I feel it's important to emphasize that their signature DOES NOT CONSTITUTE APPROVAL. All it signifies is that you live in the CLEO's jurisdiction and you're not known to be a felon/drunk/crazy/etc, and that approval will be determined by the ATF.)

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 10, 2008, 09:44 AM
Thx guys! Beren, I really think I would like to go the individual route first. It would only require payment of the tax, while I can save money for the suppressor ,and read up on forming/maintaning a trust. :)!

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 10, 2008, 09:52 AM
Errrrm, at this time, I know of *NO* reason not to use the trust/LLC method. But several reasons TO use the trust/LLC method.

H2O MAN
September 10, 2008, 10:10 AM
Get yourself a sound suppressor first.

wdlsguy
September 10, 2008, 03:29 PM
I know of *NO* reason not to use the trust/LLC method.
A trust can't get an FFL, even a C&R. This matters if you live in / visit / move to Missouri.

An LLC costs money to form, typically has annual paperwork and often has an annual fee. And what happens if you relocate to another state?

charliehustle10
December 18, 2008, 01:57 AM
Sorry, can someone explain the trust, or limited liability method? I just starting research on SBR/BATF tax stamps...

ScottsGT
December 18, 2008, 08:22 AM
I got hooked on Stamp Collecting when my local SOT/FFL put a Walther P22 in my hands with a small can on it. I instantly fell in love and had to have one. 6 months later it was done. Then I got the SBR bug, and dropped my RRA lower off and filled out the Form 4 and ordered a Spikes 13" .22 upper (looks like a 11.5" since the barrel goes back into the upper) and ordered a pistol lower to play with it until the Stamp arrived back home. In the meantime, I found a new second hand 5.5" Spikes barrel on AR15.com's EE and built another upper. So now I have an AR pistol with a 5.5" bbl, a RRA AR with a 13" bbl and a .223 upper that is 12.5" and the silencer I can use on my .22LR uppers and the Walther.
Now my FFL is trying to talk me into a can for the .223 upper. Stamp Collecting is expensive!! (and fun too!)

H2O MAN
December 18, 2008, 08:37 AM
I went for the sound suppressor first and mailed my form 4s about a week ago.
My single suppressor will fit and function on my M14s, AK and my AR.
I have a Gen II POF lower sitting in the safe just in case I decide to build an SBR.

MGshaggy
December 18, 2008, 11:11 AM
I really think I would like to go the individual route first.

Wise move.

There are significant drawbacks to trusts and corps, and while most people who say 'just do a trust/corp.' are quick to point out the benefits of trusts and corporate ownership, they almost always leave out the problems & pitfalls associated with trusts and corps.

Most of my NFA items are owned by myself as an individual, but I have a few for which I've formed a trust. Although I'm a lawyer and wrote my own trust, I prefer individual ownership - it does require a little more at the outset (namely the CLEO cert.), but it avoids a lot of potential headaches and costs down the road. Unless you're going to hire a lawyer to write or review your trust, I'd highly recommend sticking to the individual route.

H2O MAN
December 18, 2008, 11:15 AM
...potential headaches and costs down the road...

Examples...

TexasRifleman
December 18, 2008, 11:32 AM
Examples...

Tax audits. PITA to have a trust or LLC audited. You'll likely come out fine with IRS, but it's still a royal PITA.

I was in a 4 member LLC owning an airplane once and it got audited.

Stupid IRS......

H2O MAN
December 18, 2008, 11:37 AM
A simple trust should not get audited.

MGshaggy
December 18, 2008, 11:56 AM
A simple trust should not get audited.

But they are coming under increasingly stringent scrutiny at BATFE. What was passable when Hutcheons was at the helm of the NFA Branch, is coming under far more scrutiny with the new director of NFA. Notice how a couple of years ago one could just send in the certificate of trust and get approved? Now you need the full declaration or it will get kicked out of the system.

Why? Because BATFE wants to see the terms in the trusts to make sure its a legal and valid trust. Too many people form trusts they think are valid but miss problems which would be obvious to a lawyer. I know; I've helped a couple friends who had technical problems with their trusts correct them before it became an issue with BATFE. And lets not understate the magnitude of the problem if BATFE determines you made a minor error that technically invalidates the trust - you would be in possession of an NFA weapon not registered to you, the NFA weapon can be declared contraband and seized, and you could face prosecution.

Furthermore, trusts are a creation of state law. If state law changes, or if caselaw related to trusts changes the legalities, you need to know it ASAP. How many people who created trusts with an off-the-shelf software program are going to keep current on the trust law of their state years after the trust has been formed?

If you can get a signoff, thats the best way to proceed. If you can't get a signoff, then move on to methods like trusts and corporate entities.

taliv
December 18, 2008, 12:05 PM
funny how every guy on arfcom who owns one class 3 item says trusts are awesome, but every lawyer i've ever talked to said they're a last resort

H2O MAN
December 18, 2008, 12:07 PM
Because BATFE wants to see the terms in the trusts to make sure its a legal and valid trust.

Why on earth would anyone form an invalid & illegal trust and then attempt get it by the BATFE?

TexasRifleman
December 18, 2008, 12:10 PM
funny how every guy on arfcom who owns one class 3 item says trusts are awesome, but every lawyer i've ever talked to said they're a last resort

Almost word for word what mine said.

Luckily I have a Police Chief that will sign.

I had to interview with the Chief once years ago when I bought the first NFA item after moving to this city. I already had a couple of things, and I told him that. He said "well I don't see the harm in it" and signed. Since then he signed without a meeting. He left office a few years ago and his replacement signs now too saying "well he signed, no reason I shouldn't".

I know that's somewhat rare but I think that simply asking for the signoff should ALWAYS come before looking into the trust/corp thing.

Why on earth would anyone form an invalid & illegal trust and attempt get it by the BATFE?

No one would intentionally but these "do it yourself" kits might not be complete and proper.

MGshaggy
December 18, 2008, 12:42 PM
Why on earth would anyone form an invalid & illegal trust and then attempt get it by the BATFE?

As Tex said, I doubt its ever intentional, but do you honestly think that matters to BATFE?

And nevertheless, some invalid ones will get through and get approved, but that doesn't mean BATFE can't later examine the docs and find it to be transfered to an invalid entity. And thats where the fun really starts...

MGshaggy
December 18, 2008, 12:45 PM
funny how every guy on arfcom who owns one class 3 item says trusts are awesome, but every lawyer i've ever talked to said they're a last resort

Yeah, I've noticed that too.

So one has to ask themself, who they find more credible on trust law - the guys on ARFCOM or well...real lawyers. (So are you going to go to the guys on ARFCOM for help when BATFE comes knocking, or are you going to call a real lawyer? ;))

taliv
December 18, 2008, 02:11 PM
So are you going to go to the guys on ARFCOM for help when BATFE comes knocking, or are you going to call a real lawyer?

ooh! ooh! I know! pick me!

MGshaggy
December 18, 2008, 02:58 PM
ooh! ooh! I know! pick me!

Sorry Mr. Barbarino - Juan Epstein and Horshack had their hands up first.:D

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6hDZt1e0ofY/SKHAEONft2I/AAAAAAAAA-w/zHh0hxzOV-0/s400/welcome+back+kotter+2.jpg

PTK
December 18, 2008, 03:08 PM
I have more than a dozen items on a trust, now. No issues. :)

rob_s
December 18, 2008, 05:25 PM
I had a lawyer, who is also a CIII dealer and general subject matter expert, draft up my trust. I would not do the homebrew thing.

TexasRifleman
December 18, 2008, 05:28 PM
I would not do the homebrew thing.

I think that's key. There is nothing wrong with a trust as long as it's done right. Trusting one of those online services for $50 would not be the way I would do it.

Zundfolge
December 18, 2008, 05:54 PM
For a $500-$1000 suppressor, SBR or SBS I don't think the trust or LLC is that good an idea (unless its a last resort).

For a $15,000 machine gun, a trust or LLC starts to make more sense.

rob_s
December 18, 2008, 06:27 PM
Who buys just one NFA item? I have several cans and several SBRs. The way I look at it my first can, an Outback II, cost me $850 ($250 can, $200 tax, $400 lawyer).

dscottw88
December 18, 2008, 08:11 PM
Whats AOW and SBS stand for?

MGshaggy
December 18, 2008, 08:19 PM
In a nutshell...


AOW = Any Other Weapon (pistol with front grip, and guns not meeting the legal definition of handgun, rifle, or shotgun)

SBR = Short Barreled Rifle (rifle with <16" barrel or <26" overall length)

SBS = Short Barreled Shotgun (shotgun with <18" barrel or <26" overall length)

All three must be registered with the NFA Branch at BATFE like machineguns and suppressors/silencers and are taxed on each transfer ($5 transfer for AOW, $200 for all else)

H2O MAN
December 18, 2008, 08:32 PM
Does this imply Lawyers are good? ;)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 18, 2008, 08:50 PM
For a $500-$1000 suppressor, SBR or SBS I don't think the trust or LLC is that good an idea (unless its a last resort).

For a $15,000 machine gun, a trust or LLC starts to make more sense.

That's it! Or you could say:

For a $500-$1000 suppressor, SBR or SBS I don't think the trust or LLC is that good an idea (unless its a last resort).

For a $15,000 machine gun [or 4-5 or more smaller value items], a trust or LLC starts to make more sense.

If you enjoyed reading about "SBR, Suppressor, or SBS? Too Many Choices!?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!