Best bolt-action 7.62 x 54?


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KBintheSLC
September 7, 2008, 03:46 PM
I am is the market for a bolty in 7.62 x 54... something in the $500ish range. I love the ammo prices compared to .308. Need plenty of accuracy, mounting options, and good ol durability in the outdoors. Any suggestions? I have never owned a rifle in this caliber so I don't even know where to begin. :confused:

Thanks, KB

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Funderb
September 7, 2008, 03:48 PM
finnish mosin

Vaarok
September 7, 2008, 03:52 PM
Finnish M-28/30 with irons, M-39 with scout scope, or reproduction PU sniper rifle.

Auburn1992
September 7, 2008, 03:53 PM
+1 on former posts

Cosmoline
September 7, 2008, 04:06 PM
The drawback of the 28/30 is its narrower bore, which means you need to use handloads for maximum accuracy. For a shooter I'd suggest a Tikka late moder M-92 from the early 40's or an M-39. These are reasonably easy to find for under $300. Just don't cut on them!

Ash
September 7, 2008, 04:16 PM
Best all-around bolt-action 7.62x54r is the M39 Mosin. It is the happy compromise between the superbly accurate M28/30 that is limited by the .308 bore (and sometimes with the shorter chamber) and the fully utilitarian M91. The M39 has the same great sights and excellent trigger of the 28/30 but has the wider .310 bore most common for 7.62x54r while at the same time being considerably more available.

Don't waste your time worrying about manufacturers as they were all stellar (the VKT and SAKO are virtually the same).

Ash

Aaryq
September 7, 2008, 04:19 PM
Finnish Mosin. Hands down.

SimpleIsGood229
September 7, 2008, 07:09 PM
Please, just don't turn Bubba loose on a Finnish Mosin. Pleeeeeeease...

Funderb
September 7, 2008, 07:19 PM
^^ +45264789

KBintheSLC
September 8, 2008, 05:14 PM
Excellent... thanks for the feedback. Now its time to hunt down a good specimen.

Do you guys ever see the M39's pop up locally, or is it best to find one online?

Ash
September 8, 2008, 05:15 PM
Check your local gun show or order online.

Ash

RonO777
September 8, 2008, 05:51 PM
Spend the time to get your C&R license then you can order them online. M38,M44, & MN91/30s can all be had for less than a hundred. Then spend the other $400 on ammo or other guns. The license is good for 3 years and gets you discounts a places like MidwayUSA & Brownells.
Ron

Ash
September 8, 2008, 06:01 PM
But an M39 will shoot vastly better.

Ash

TexasRifleman
September 8, 2008, 06:03 PM
I think the best source for a NICE m-39 is Pat Burns.

http://www.gunsnammo.com/

I got this one a while back:

http://homepage.mac.com/jayc67/m39.jpg

KBintheSLC
September 8, 2008, 06:14 PM
Whats the scoop on mounting optics on a 41-44 model Mosin M39? I assume the do not have a mounting rail, but do they come pre-tapped for easy installation or do I have to get it tapped by a gun smith?

Anyone play with a scoped M39 at over 600 yards? How did it work out?

I think the best source for a NICE m-39 is Pat Burns.

Thats the site I was just looking at... he seems to have some good deals on nice rifles.

hceptj
September 8, 2008, 06:16 PM
I think the best source for a NICE m-39 is Pat Burns.

http://www.gunsnammo.com/

+1 for Pat Burns

KBintheSLC
September 8, 2008, 06:20 PM
Another question... what is the technological difference between the "antique" and the "FFL needed" rifles?

TexasRifleman
September 8, 2008, 06:22 PM
Another question... what is the technological difference between the "antique" and the "FFL needed" rifles?

Firearms before, I think, 1898, are considered antique and don't need a dealer license. Might double check that year, I can't remember for sure.

Ash
September 8, 2008, 06:50 PM
1898 and earlier are antiques. A fair number of M39's were built on antique receivers and therefore are legal antiques that require no paperwork. Finns are great.

By the way, don't drill and tap. If you must have optics, get a scout-style mount.

Ash

Vaarok
September 8, 2008, 06:51 PM
M-39s do not come tapped for scopes, and if you drill and tap one, ruining it, you will be hunted down and have bad things done to you. The Mosin action is very poorly suited to conventional telescopic mounting solutions anyways, unless you have a very old Mannlicher-Schonauer side-mount handy.

What they do have, as a simple and easy option, is the ability to have the rear sight replaced by a clamp-on scout-mounted scope base that works very well.

Cosmoline
September 8, 2008, 07:09 PM
Ditto what Vaarok said. This is NOT the rifle for you if you want a same-old Remchester scoped clone. This is a rifle for those who love iron sights or want to learn how to use them.

You do not need a scope. Simo Häyhä didn't need one.

KBintheSLC
September 8, 2008, 09:03 PM
Sounds like the M39 is not very scope friendly, so back to my original inquiry...

Need plenty of accuracy, mounting options, and good ol durability in the outdoors. Any suggestions?

Is there a more modern bolt-action rifle that is chambered in 7.62x54 and is scope friendly? If I am just using iron sights, my AK ought to do.

Ash
September 8, 2008, 09:37 PM
EAA imported some Baikal double rifles in 7.62x54r that could be scoped any way you wanted. They were not bolt-action repeaters, of course, but they were modern capable of standard optics mounting.

Ash

Cosmoline
September 8, 2008, 10:10 PM
There are scout scope mounting options if you're wedded to optics. Darrell makes great mounts, and a search of the forum will come up with his contact info.

If I am just using iron sights, my AK ought to do.

There's considerable difference between the AK's crude iron sights and the sights of a Finn Mosin.

Vaarok
September 8, 2008, 10:40 PM
As well as range and accuracy potential.

Funderb
September 8, 2008, 11:07 PM
why not get a run of the mill m9130 for 120 bucks in excellent condition and put your own scope on it
satisfy the bubba in you and have fun.

Vaarok
September 9, 2008, 10:14 AM
Because you stand a far lesser chance of getting a good shooter. He wanted a really good shooter.

KBintheSLC
September 9, 2008, 01:17 PM
There's considerable difference between the AK's crude iron sights and the sights of a Finn Mosin.

Unless of course you have upgraded the crude sights with a nice ghost ring rear and tritium front.

Does anyone make a new-production rifle in this caliber, or is everything old mil-surp type of stuff? If not, someone should... it seems like a great cartridge... like a 308 +P.. thats capable of launching much heavier bullets.

Because you stand a far lesser chance of getting a good shooter. He wanted a really good shooter.

You got it... I am looking for something that can produce at least MOA accuracy... The best I have heard of from the Mosin's was 2-4 MOA, and they vary greatly from one rifle to another. I wish Remington made a 700 in 7.62x54.

Funderb
September 9, 2008, 01:45 PM
A good condition mosin will give you MOA precision with a scope.
There are good soviets out there, just go look.

You are really severely limiting yourself by wanting to put a scope on a x54r rifle.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
September 9, 2008, 02:54 PM
If you want MOA accuracy, buy a modern hunting rifle like a Stevens Model 200 in 30.06. You'll have MOA or so accuracy, reasonably priced ammo and you can mount a scope on it easily. You cannot get MOA accuracy from surplus soviet union produced ammo, it's not of high enough quality. By the time you reload for the 7.62 X 54, you could reload for LESS for 30.06 and have a better cartridge.

What you want to do isn't compatible with the cartridge and firearms you're looking at. By the time you get the old (and heavy) military rifles to do what you're wanting to do, you can buy a modern hunting rifle and the scope and be money, time and marbles ahead without ruining a fine military antique in the process.l

Seriously,

Dave

SimpleIsGood229
September 9, 2008, 05:00 PM
I think Dave summed it up very nicely.

elmerfudd
September 9, 2008, 05:11 PM
What you might consider is getting a nice Lee Enfield. Then depending on the condition of the bore, you could either have it rechambered or rebarreled. Lee Enfields were made for a rimmed cartridge of similar dimensions and chamber pressure and this kind of conversion has been done many times before. There are plenty of them out there at reasonable prices and they can be scoped fairly easily.

Cosmoline
September 9, 2008, 05:22 PM
ee Enfields were made for a rimmed cartridge of similar dimensions and chamber pressure

The .303 British has a lower chamber pressure than the 54R. With sporting loads the variation is even greater, with the 54R nearing .30'06 or 8x57 pressure levels. I'm sure there's a way of doing it safely, but there's also room to screw it up.

I am looking for something that can produce at least MOA accuracy... The best I have heard of from the Mosin's was 2-4 MOA, and they vary greatly from one rifle to another

Many Finns will deliver MOA or better with the right load. The sights are fine tuned, and will enable an experienced shooter to engage any visible target within the cartridge's range. That includes targets out to 300, 400 meters and even beyond. This takes work and calibration. It may require you to relearn how to use iron sights, and how to use multiple points of reference to square up the target.

There seems to be a notion among those used to optics that unless you can precisely see the particular spot you're aiming at, you cannot hit it. If you learn how to use quality irons, you will be shocked at the tight and centered groups you can get EVEN THOUGH YOU CANNOT SEE THE HOLES or even the group until you walk up to the target or look at it through the range finder.

Particularly on the M28/30 and M39, the Finnish sights are really a sighting system of advanced design. This is the sight picture, and you will notice how the "dog ears" combine with the sight post, notch and the side posts to create a multi-layered sight picture with many points of reference to allow you to square up the sights with the target.

http://62x54r.net/MosinID/SightM39.jpg

With practice, you will be able to zero in while keeping the front sight in focus. Your brain will square up the rest of the sighting elements with the sighting points of the target--whether that's a circle, square or something else.

If you don't have time for all this or have no interest in it, the advice of getting a .30'06 Savage or Remchester is spot on.

aka108
September 9, 2008, 05:34 PM
Finnish Mosin 38. They are accurate and can become unchallenging and a bit boring. When you get your sights adjusted, they hit what the sights are aligned on. Every time. I'm running Chinese built 7.62X54 thru mine. Cu jacketed bullet with brass case. Bought tons of the stuff when it was 34.00 for 440 rds. Stuff is NA at this time and the prices will never get that low again.

KBintheSLC
September 9, 2008, 05:36 PM
Perhaps the '06 would be a better way to go. I would hate to destroy a classic rifle in attempt to create some kind of Frankengun. I take it none of the major manufacturers are making new rifles in this caliber anymore? I wonder why... it seems like it is still a very viable and useful cartridge. Maybe the fact that it is a rimmed case makes it less compatible with machine guns, and select fire weapons... as opposed to the 7.62 NATO that works as both a sniper round and a machine gun round.

Cosmoline
September 9, 2008, 05:44 PM
That's a fair question. Remington made one of their yearly classics in 8x57JS a few years back. For 54R there are probably just too many changes to make, from the magazine to the bolt to the chamber to the diameter of the bore. Plus they'd be selling a $700 or $800 rifle against rifles costing a third or less.

elmerfudd
September 9, 2008, 06:37 PM
The .303 British has a lower chamber pressure than the 54R. With sporting loads the variation is even greater, with the 54R nearing .30'06 or 8x57 pressure levels. I'm sure there's a way of doing it safely, but there's also room to screw it up.

Using the crusher method both cartridges are rated at 45,000 or 46,000 PSI depending on the source and they are generally the same. Using the Piezo method the 7.62x54R is rated at 57,000 and the .303 at 53,000.

Here's a link on the conversion from the JPFO.
http://www.jpfo.net/filegen-n-z/smle.htm

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