I need someone's experience


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Roberoo
September 7, 2008, 07:06 PM
I'm a new poster, name is Roberoo living in E. Wa. State, raised in N. Idaho, owned business in Portland Or area and Or. Coast.I have handloaded for 35 years and like to have the consistency that handloading affords you. For very large game I shoot a .338 Win mag. in the Browning SSS 26" bbl. with KDF, which makes it almost pleasent to shoot. The .338 Winnie Mag just halts all moving molecules in Moose/Elk and w/ Noz. 250gr. Part. and IMR 4350
(I also have used RL19, IMR 4831, IMR 7828, H1000) There isn't a lot of second guessing with this outfit.
I am however anguishing over an event that I don't have answers for, and need some input. Last year I shot a very nice Id. buck, well over 250 lbs at 130 yds with a 7mm-08, 120 noz. ballistic tip, Varget powder touted at 3050 fps. and printing 1/2" at 100yds.,
It was from a prone position, lots of time, the bullet hit right behind the the 'elbow or knee' at the heart lung site picture. While I had shot the gun well over 100 times, this was the 1st deer I shot with that gun & I found it to be right on the money, and I have killed deer with the Noz. Ballistic Tips, and respect their accuracy and preformance.

The deer went down and "there I was admiring my work when the deer got up and did a boot-scoot-boogie UP A HILL.. I know a little blood goes a long way, and it was in the snow, but this guy had the tap on wide open and left a blood trail that could be seen from space. In the back of my mind I was kicking myself for not rolling my bolt and getting back on the animal ASAP, --I have "no excuse." I hunted with a .270 for years and I never worried that an animal would go farther than 100 feet, but it was always just second nature to be ready to shoot again if necessary. What turned out, was a high price to pay for my moment of being an observer. So here this buck is going up-hill leaking oil at a level that let me know he had taken a good hit. Well I waited 25 min. for him to go off lie down and die, and when I went to get him there was a lot of blood on a deer trail and the trail went up hill. A steep hill. He crossed over near the top and down into the bottom of a draw into a flat with 2 creeks, he was dead on his feet, and going to water, but he just didn't stop.
Well I sadly admit I lost that animal. That was the first deer I ever shot with a 7mm-08 , and having killed many deer with the .243 I know I wasn't undergunned..still I am now wishing I'd just went on to buy the 270 WSM rather than the 7 mm-08. Strange things happen and I have hunted long enough to know that anything can and will happen when shooting deer, but real bad things happen when you stop shooting when you should be shooting. Losing an animal after a good shot stays with you,it's haunting, and makes you wonder just what mainly went wrong. Ok it's pilot error, but why he got up is why I'm puzzled. I really couldn't believe that animal was getting up.
I would have really liked to have autopsied that buck as you can learn so much about preformance when you see it first hand, and perhaps I would have a greater respect for that 7mm-08..I've killed dear many years ago with the 7x57 and it was a great gun.

I will hunt this year again with the 7mm-08, and give it one more go around. I was always impressed with the 140 gr. in the .270 at 3100 fps it was a very accurate and deadly combo.

So here is my question(s) -- I won't buy ammo when I'm sitting on a Dillon RL 550B, and I bought #300 Noz. Accubond in .284 cal. + have lots of ingredients.
I found a very accurate load for the 7 mm-08 with the 120 ballistic tip and Varget. But other than the Hornady light-mags I can't find a load that will propel that 140 Accubond at the 3000fps I would like to have. I really don't and won't push the gun, but I have seen the 140gr advertised at 3000fps several times (somewhere).
Obviously, it's 90% in where the shot goes and while I know it, after this experience with that 120gr, I would feel more confident with a 140 gr. at 3000fps.
My 7 mag just gathers dust, it's a mod. 70 and is 2 lbs heavier, but I have yet to feel I had the right gun when I was hunting anything with it.

The 7mm-08 is the Savage 11FL synthetic stock, with a 22" bbl. -- I also am a lefty, so I started on Savage guns and am used to the feel, and the improved trigger is just frosting !
Anywho I have rambled on here WAY too long sorry, but can someone help me answer the following questions:
1) What is the difference between the 24" and the 22" bbls for loss of fps. I know it averages 30-75 fps per inch but I have read that this cartridge is very efficient and doesn't lose as much as others would by shortening the barrel. Could it lose more than 100fps from the 24" down to the 22" ?
Why Nozler used 26" and Hornady used 18.5 " bbl for their manuals is beyond me, but I would like to hear from someone who has run 22" vs 24" and knows the loss here.
2) Is there a load(s) for the 140 gr in the 7mm-08 that isn't "hot" and stiffens bolts, that runs at 3000 fps for a 22" barrel ?
3) I can load the 140's in the 7 mag and shoot them at 3350fps. But from all I read the 7mm-08 is enough gun, and I like the weight, length, recoil, ect. and I bought the Savage as a light-weight, mountain rifle. Plus, this gun is very acurate.
I'm just not as young as I once was, and to get where I'm in these deer I have to do a lot of humping the hills. That 2 lbs makes a difference over a 10 hour hump.
Any and all thoughts would be appreciated. . Thank you and good hunting this fall to all of you ! This is the last time I will post my life story !

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Eric F
September 7, 2008, 07:24 PM
Holy smokes this is the longest post I have ever seen in reloading. but here it goes,
1 not much 75-125 fps on my friends 308 7mm should be close
2 not sure
3 heavy recoil for hunting, so what its just 1 or 2 shots likely wont even notice

ForneyRider
September 7, 2008, 07:38 PM
Those are some stout loads.

You are basically asking the 7mm-08 to act like a Rem. 7mm Mag. 120gr in 7mm-08 at 3000-3100fps is common, but 140gr is not. From what I have read, 24in barrel is pretty common for non-magnum test barrels, 26in for magnum.

I have been loading down my Rem. 7mm Magnum 120gr loads to 7x57, 7-08 levels and really enjoy shooting it all day. I hit between 2800-3000fps with Varget, IMR 4064, IMR 4350, RL 19, and RL22. You might try Varget, BL-C(2), RL15, or the 2 IMR powders.

140gr at 3100fps in 270 Win is hot. Hornady's hot factory loads for 130gr are 3150fps. I am sure Hornady's rating is for 24in barrel or longer.

I use a lot of Nosler data for my loads. Their max loads are stout and accurate.

454PB
September 8, 2008, 02:00 AM
It's generally accepted that you lose 30 to 75 fps. for each inch reduction in barrel length. However, I've owned and used a chronograph for 35 years, and "guessing" at velocity (or velocity loss) is useless. I own two .338 magnums, both of them Rugers with 24" barrels. One is a Mark II, the other an original blued model 77. With the same load data, the 77 yields 100 fps more than the Mark II. There is a lot more to velocity than just barrel length, and you can't assume anything.

Shoney
September 8, 2008, 02:54 AM
I got bored after the third paragraph and quit reading. Hope you might shorten this and ask a question.

ArchAngelCD
September 8, 2008, 03:16 AM
Wow, some post....

Welcome to the forum and I'm sorry about you having to sell your rifles.

Good luck....

ants
September 8, 2008, 03:55 AM
I glanced at Nozler's reloading data for the 7mm 140 grain Accubond in 7mm-08. You're asking for 8% over max. Maybe you're asking a little too much, my friend.

Besides, bullet velocity wasn't the problem with the buck you lost. You didn't reload and stay on target after the hit. No amount of velocity will cure that.

Roberoo
September 8, 2008, 04:56 AM
Sorry for the book, just an intro. didn't mean to ruin yer day.
The 140gr .270 load @ 3100fps came from Handloader, in a 26" bbl =
59.5 IMR 7828 50K CUP no X-ces pressure.
The reason I ask about the 3000 fps w/140gr in 7mm-08 is that it is being advertised w/light-mag. I also like that trajectory. I really don't shoot hot loads, but powders are constantly changing so ya never know.
Ants you are spot on. My error.
I have to decide if I'm going to be happy with a rifle that puts out about 500 less foot/lbs than I like. These are big, healthy, wild deer. No fences, no feeding bins, you need every
advantage you can get, and velocity is an advantage.

mkl
September 8, 2008, 10:39 AM
You've got enough gun.

Pick a bullet with good penetration (I use the Nosler partition) and set the cross hairs in the middle of the front shoulder. Yes, you will loose a few pounds of meat, but a deer with one (or both) front shoulders broken will not run away.

NCsmitty
September 8, 2008, 10:39 AM
The 7mm-08 is a very good whitetail round. IMO, the problem probably was the Nosler ballistic tip bullet that you used. There have been occasions when they prematurely rupture without penetrating the vitals. The Partition versions do not do that. I would use the 140 Partition @2800-2900fps and be confident.
I know the pain of losing a deer with a confident shot. When I lived in upstate NY, at the time shotguns and slugs were required. I had a quartering shoulder shot on a 6 pointer and he dropped at the shot. I looked down and ejected the shell and pumped another into my Rem. 870 and watched for a few moments then made my way, about 50 yds, to the deer. I get there and no deer. Lots of blood on his rt. hoof print and followed it for two hours up and down the mountain until dark. He had laid down a few times in the snow and each time there was less blood. I believe now that the slug glanced off the shoulder blade and did not penetrate. The next year, I dropped a deer with my 44 Magnum handgun, which was legal to use. It definitely penetrated. I believe NY allows rifles in the southern zone now.

NCsmitty

jmorris
September 8, 2008, 11:00 AM
+1 Nosler partition

rcmodel
September 8, 2008, 11:56 AM
Lost a deer that was leaking like a rusty bucket?

Sxxx Happens, my friend!

And I doubt another 100 - 200 FPS, or a 7mm Mag would have changed a thing.

I'd say you nailed the problem right on the head with the part about not being ready to take a follow-up shot before the deer hit the ground running again.

rcmodel

SSN Vet
September 8, 2008, 04:13 PM
interesting story...

welcome to THR...

I think there are just to many darn variables in the arena of terminal ballistics to every really pin down a definative answer to your question without a necropsy.

when you least expect it....expect it! Murphey's gremlins stole your buck.

better luck next time.

33rowdy
September 8, 2008, 11:39 PM
I'd call Savage for your info.

wyocarp
September 8, 2008, 11:55 PM
I think the problem was in what the deer had been eating and his aerobic conditioning. I would suggest hunting in an area where the deer aren't as well fed and in poorer shape physically.

Snapping Twig
September 9, 2008, 03:15 AM
Barnes bullets are pretty nice too.

ForneyRider
September 9, 2008, 03:55 AM
+1 for Nosler for hunting bullets. I like them all: Partition, Ballistic Tip and Accubond. The Ballistic Tips have been more accurate than a similar V-Max.

I get their JHP 210gr for my 41mag as well.

Most of my load data has been based on Nosler book or website.

You may get those velocities with a long barrel like that.

I just looked at a 6.5x55 sporterized, it has a 29in barrel!

It could prolly those velocities and bullet weights.

Roberoo
September 9, 2008, 05:42 AM
Wyocarp wrote : "I would suggest hunting in an area where the deer aren't as well fed and in poorer shape physically"

Perhaps it's the hunters in this neck of the woods, they just keep pushing those deer further and further away.
Thanks to you all for a lot of great advice.
I want to shoot the Noz. Accubond 140 gr. The partition has never failed me but I bought a bunch of Accubonds so I'd have them now, back in Jan/Feb.
I had problems with the early Ballistic Tips, in the .270, creating a lot of bloodshot meat. By slowing down from .270's fps to 7mm-08's fps the Accubond should be perfect, BUT, if I lose another deer this year, it's a divorce for me and the lil' 7. A lot of this is in having confidence in your weapon i.e., if you do your part, it will reciprocate.
Note:
On page(s) 219 & 220 Speer Reloading Manual # 12:
7mm-08 24" bbl
(pg. 219) ---> 130 gr. 3065 fps
(pg. 220) ---> 145 gr. 2933 fps
< any comments ? >

That's the data that led me to "wonder" if the 140 gr. wouldn't fly at 3000 fps. from the 7mm-08, or very close.
As far as making a shot to break down the shoulders, I just see all that red jell-o on the floor and my site pict. is forced back to the heart /lung area .. Early on I produced a lot of blood-shot meat with a .270 and soft tips.
Sometimes secondary projectiles can cause a lot of damage to the body.
It makes the dogs happy..perhaps with the Barnes X, but I never found a gun I liked, that would keep them under an inch.

stork
September 9, 2008, 06:31 PM
Long time lurker but I don't post anywhere much, except for the Bullseye List.

My experiences only here regarding the Nostler BT. I used the 165's in a new Rem 700 in 30-06 over 20+ years ago. I shot 5-6 whitetails with them ranging from 50-250 yards. Every one of them were like a grenade went off in them. I sold the rifle and had nearly 400 rds left over in a ammo can for nearly 15 years. I acquired a P-17 Enfield and used the same ammo for my boys when they started whitetail hunting. The bullet performance could not have been more perfect in the P-17. Picture perfect mushrooms.

My opinion is that the rifling was very new and sharp in the 700 and very worn in the P-17. The sharp rifling scored the jackets a bit too much and they flew apart upon impact. The older P-17's rifling was a bit more worn and the jackets held together much better.

Your choice of the Accubonds is better than the Ballistic tips. Being a bonded bullet they should hold together better than the BT's.

Although I have done some testing with 140's in my 7-08, mine has been rechambered to an improved 40 degree shoulder and blown out so the load data would not be applicable for yours. Varget was the best powder choice for mine.

FWIW

goon
September 10, 2008, 03:55 AM
FWIW - My dad shot a whitetail once that ran about 100 yards. It was only shot once and it's heart looked like hamburger when it was dressed out. It still didn't stop the animal from running.
Could just be one of those things...

And this is one of those things that makes me a firm believer that "stopping power" is just something we like to argue about every six months or so. ;)

Shoney
September 10, 2008, 06:32 AM
For those among you who have never hunted or taken good numbers of LARGE mule deer, youíre in for a surprise. I have taken many large mulies in the Missouri Breaks and along the continental divide in three states. I have also taken a high number of bull elk and lots of cow elk. Without a doubt in my mind, Mule Deer Bucks will take substantially more punishment in order to bring them down. For North American ungulates, only the Mt. Goat will take more punishment than a muley.

Roberoo: If you are bound to use the 270, the Nosler partition would be an excellent choice. The nature of the patition actually will ruin more meat than a bonded bullet, but will do better in the killing department. After a few sad, heart wrenching experiences, I now only use a 300WinMag with 200 gr Nosler Partitions for trophy hunting deer.

I could never get much over 3000fps with any powder and 140 gr 270. The only powders that gave accuracy at the higher velocities were the 4831ís and IMR was the better. The 140gr in 7mm-08 light-mag uses a non-canister powder and is packed into the case so tightly that if you pull the bullet and remove it, you wonít be able to get it back in. You will not be able to reproduce those velocities with components available to the reloader.

gamestalker
September 10, 2008, 06:46 PM
Back in the mid 1980s I shot an antelope at nearly 600 yds. with a .270 loaded with a Speer 130 grain PSP BT and 60 grains of 4350. I hit him in the lungs/heart and he went down as though a semi hit him. Within about 2 seconds he was up and running as though I never touched him. I chambered another round and by now he was even farhther away but I went for an any where shot and hit him in the neck flipping him through the air end over end. This time he didn't get up. But the one thing that I just can't understand is he was missing both lungs and his heart, yet he still managed to run full speed for well over 500 yds. before I put him down for the second time. When I walked the extreme distance to him I could see he was litterally missing all of his vitals, they were blown out the other side and a hole about the size of a dinner plate was all that remained!
gamestalker

Shoney
September 11, 2008, 12:39 AM
gamestalker: Pronghorns have a different chemistry for oxygen debt. Instead of a build up of CO2, their muscles build up lactic acid, which is converted to CO2 when oxygen is more abundant. A lung shot only deprives them of oxygen, but the muscles will continue to work until they reach a high percentage of lactic acid. If you hit a leg or spine, they will go a little ways but stop. If you don’t take out a lung or leg, they can go a terribly long ways if pushed.

Let see! A 600 yard hit and he runs another 500 yards and you hit him on the run at 1100 yards???????????????

A 130 gr bullet at 600 yards has just enough energy to punch through an animal. Since I have taken many many antelope at 500 yards+, I have problems understanding how your bullet can disintegrate the vitals, much less suck them out of an animal at that distance?????????????????

EDIT: And I forgot to ask: Since either IMR4350 and H4350 are both over max and are compressed loads at 56 gr, HOW DID YOU GET THAT EXTRA 4 GRAINS OF POWDER IN????????????????

depoloni
September 11, 2008, 03:56 PM
Ahh... he just tucked a 10-gauge 00 buckshot load into the tip of that 270 bullet. I've yet to shoot the vitals out of an animal yet, although about the most I've tried is 44mag "hot" at 20 yards so I can't compare apples-to-apples with a 270's blast damage at 600 yds.

presspuller
September 11, 2008, 08:58 PM
If it makes you feel any better I have heard of more shot game being lost after being hit with a BT than any other bullet.

Claude Clay
September 11, 2008, 09:06 PM
perhaps the deer had eaten some magic mushrooms before you shot it. for sure it was not your usual supper dear.

Roberoo
September 11, 2008, 10:38 PM
Well bringing this in full circle, when I think about the most successful cal./bullet combo (for me), for this country (N. Idaho)/& animal (W.T. or Mul. Deer) in just numbers of one shot kills, it's the .270 with the Noz. B.T. They sure were nasty until they thickened the jackets up, and even then I lost a lot of meat.
The ex used to say she didn't like bones hanging on the walls, so trophy hunting was exchanged for meat hunting, and with the .270 with your soft tips if you hit a big bone you could ruin a lot of meat in a big hurry.

Some of the unwritten things that go with a successful combo, is being very comfortable and confident with the gun. Having sufficient foot lbs. after 200 yards, knowing the trajectory of the load, and being correct on the distance I'm shooting . But no matter how old I get, that darn grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. I see the new 270 WSM or perhaps Ruger's new .300 and off I go into ballistics land. It's all part of what makes it such a great sport.
I shot a buck a few years ago (plus a few years) that was dead without a kick, instantly, with a .22 Hornet. The only shot I had from the 75 yds was head/neck and that little 40 grainer split the spine in his neck and he never heard the shot, but it's certainly not something I'd make a practice of.
I would only shoot head/neck if it was the only shot I figured I was going to get, and I wanted that animal.
I really don't think that out to 400yds, (and that is a long shot in my book,) there is much difference between the .270, .280, or '06.'
(I do however like the .280 Ackley's ballistics with 140-160 gr.)
So when ya think about it, if a guy believes that he can't do much better than those guns out to 400.
He then very well might find himself on the short end of terminal ballistics with the "smaller" cased rifles.
I don't think you can argue that the .308 nato case will hold more powder than the 06 and when it gets down to it, powder and bullet shape, certainly have a lot to do with what goes on after 200yds.
This is if I hold the conversation to the 7mm-08 vs the .270
or the 308 vs the 06.
As one gentleman wrote here, I was probably guilty of trying to squeeze
7 mag performance out of the 7mm-08 although any of you who have the #12 Speer can attest to the
loads on 209-210 w/ 7mm-08 &
130 & 145 gr. Darn close !
But I buy guns because I like to shoot them not burn through barrels.
If I get a gun that will stay at 1/2 in.
with a given load that's 1 grain low of max. I'm very happy.
I wonder if I can talk Santa into that new .280 Ackley in a Kimber?

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