CCW: moral support needed


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nextjoe
September 6, 2003, 10:36 PM
So I spent 10 hours today sitting in a classroom, taking the NRA Personal Protection Class. This is the first step towards getting a Michigan concealed carry license. I also have to complete 3 hours of range time (but I only have to fire a minimum of 30 rounds!) to get the certificate from the class. After that, here's what else has to be done:

- Get fingerprinted and have the prints sent to the State Police and the FBI
- Get photographed
- Complete all the necessary paperwork
- Give the County Gun Board permission to access all my medical records
- Pay $105 on top of the $150 that the class cost me
- Submit two notarized letters of reference (a requirement made up out of thin air by the County)
- Wait anywhere from 4 to 14 months, even though the County is required by law to issue or deny the permit within 45 days of the fingerprints coming up clear

Frankly, I'm infuriated and disgusted by all the hoops I have to jump through, and all the time and expense involved in getting "permission" to exercise a Constitutional and human right. I'm having second thoughts about the whole thing. Any encouragement/suggestions/advice?

Best,
Joe

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Standing Wolf
September 6, 2003, 10:42 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the Second Amendment is all the so-called "license" any law-abiding U.S. citizen ever ought to need to keep and bear arms.

That saidâ„¢, I went through the genuine official routine myself, wrote the checks and got the money orders, and thanked the deputy for taking my finger prints and photograph. I figured it was a lot like voting for George W. Bush: the lesser of two evils. It seems to me it's easier to go through the rigmarole and expense and carry without worry than carry and have to worry about possible legal complications.

Alaska has recently joined Vermont in deciding if its citizens legally own them, they can legally carry them. I hope more states will follow their lead.

P95Carry
September 6, 2003, 10:52 PM
Your ''hoops'' are ..... more than excessive .... great fortitude needed to ''stay the course'' ..... but stay you must and do not be beat.

Such a contrast tho .... cos here it is ''shall issue'' and in my county at least ,...... 1/2 hr at Sheriff's office ... and $21.50 later .. bingo ... done deal. (assuming clean ....... of course!!). The contrast is beyond understanding.

My only concern here in fact --- and I have said as much before ....... is that because NO requirement for any training .... I do feel that in a few cases .... total newbies might go get a CCW and then have little or no clue as to safe handling etc.

We are tho broadly very gun oriented and so in most cases, those going for CCW will be conversant and responsible ........... it's just the few that ain't that concern me.

nextjoe
September 6, 2003, 10:56 PM
P95Carry-

Thanks for your post. It's "shall issue" here, too, but Wayne County likes to make things as difficult as possible for gun owners.


Best,
Joe

feedthehogs
September 6, 2003, 11:46 PM
When I got my Florida CCW many, many years ago, an hour with an instructor at home and the paper work was all it took.

I have been teaching the CCW for many years now and they changed it to include shooting a round thru your gun. Some teach it in the back of a gun store and shoot into a bullet trap.
I use a range and insist on the extra time to make sure a student handles the gun safely and shoots well or I won't pass them.

Its more than what the state requires but I've had some that couldn't hit a 12" x 12" target at 15 yards.
With some teaching, all have hit that target with all shots and all have thanked me for taking the time to help them. Most went on to practice on a regular basis because they had a much better attitude and results from their shooting.

While we shouldn't have to get permits to carry, if you can't hit a target at 15 yards, you got no business carrying a gun.
A shooting test should always be required.
BW

SeaG
September 7, 2003, 12:17 AM
Hang in there! I applied on April 8th of this year and finally got it on Aug 27th. Yes, there are alot of hoops but honestly I filled out all the paperwork and picked up my passport photo all in one afternoon.

When I went in to sign my permit the lady was almost appolgetic about the permit taking so long. She explained that my prints went through but there was a snaffu and my license number wasn't sent back with the prints. She said she made three calls before she finally got the number sent. I tend to believe her as she had no reason to lie. There was one added benefit, after July 5th I think it was, the permits are issued for 5 years instead of 3. Im good till 08 now! My only gripe with the whole process was when she told me the approval board met only one day a month??!

I do live in mid-western Mich so I'm sure your experience will probably be different. I went out and celebrated by purchasing a Springfield Milspec and its nice not to have to deal with getting a permit to purchase. Carry aside, just being able to buy a pistol when the mood strikes is well worth all the hoops.

Ringer
September 7, 2003, 12:37 AM
Hang in there. Wayne county is the worst in SE Michigan, they seem to like making people wait. The cost is pretty much the same for all of us here in MI, but your wait unfortunately will be a bit longer. In a couple months it will be done and you will be set (for 5 years anyway).

G-Raptor
September 7, 2003, 01:00 AM
Do the dance, pay the piper, and get the permit.

While you're at it, get a Florida permit too and you can carry legal in 20 states. You'll be able to go from the Motor City, to DisneyWorld, to the Astrodome, and back home again locked and loaded, and without the "hassle" factor.

Permit systems SUCK. Period. Doesn't matter whether they are "shall issue" or not. It's simply another way for the gov-mint to get between you, your money, and your rights. But that's the way it is, at least for the foreseable future.

I encourage anyone who can to get a carry permit, even if you don't carry on a regular basis. A) You never know when you might need to, and a year is a long time to wait when someone is stalking you or your family. B) The more people who have permits, the less likely they are to limit them. When carry permits are as common as driver's licenses, nobody will care if you have one.

dinosaur
September 7, 2003, 08:09 AM
They are trying to discourage you. All the more reason to get it. It`s unfortunate but the more who have them, the faster the antis will see their cause is hopeless and a LIE!

Kharn
September 7, 2003, 08:42 AM
Are any of your friends lawyers? When you hit the 45 day mark, have them draft a nice little letter listing the law's 45 day requirement and ask that they send a new copy of your permit out (as the first one was obviously lost in the mail), since a govt official would never violate the law by taking too long to do something.

Kharn

El Tejon
September 7, 2003, 09:25 AM
Hang in there, neighbor!

AZLibertarian
September 7, 2003, 10:56 AM
When carry permits are as common as driver's licenses, nobody will care if you have one.

I'm always careful when I make comparisons between the priviledge of licensed driving and the right of carrying a weapon. I believe this line of argument serves the anti's more than it benefits gun freedoms.

All this being said, I've had my CCW for a number of years, even though I don't think I ought to have to apply to the state for any right.

XLMiguel
September 7, 2003, 11:18 AM
Hang in there. When VA first went "Shall issue", it was up to individual counties to set their own fees and requirements to get a permit. The Seople's Republik of Fairfax set the fee at $200, took their own sweet time to process, plus a bunch of other hooey. Enough people raised Hell with their reps and the state made it a uniform 'not to exceed $50', and must be done within 45 days.

The message is stay the course, get your permit, and make your displeasure known loud and often to those who can make a change. Good luck and Maalox.;)

pax
September 7, 2003, 12:05 PM
Frankly, I'm infuriated and disgusted by all the hoops I have to jump through, and all the time and expense involved in getting "permission" to exercise a Constitutional and human right. I'm having second thoughts about the whole thing. Any encouragement/suggestions/advice?
That's why all those hoops are there, you know. If you quit, the bastards won.

pax

You have the right to remain helpless. Should you choose to waive this right, anything you do may be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an assailant. If you cannot find one for yourself, the court will release one for you. -- Steve Munden, quoted by Jeff Cooper in his commentaries

Trebor
September 7, 2003, 12:08 PM
A couple of points:

1. While Wayne County is one of the worst counties to deal with in regards to CCW permits, they are also the only county I know of that DO issue the required-by-law temporary permits if the permit processing takes more than 45 (?) days.

2. If you wind up firing ONLY 30 rounds in the NRA PPITH class, your instructor is teaching the class in violation of the NRA requirements and your Certificate of Completion is technically invalid.

One of the requirements of Michigan law is that the classes must meet certain minimum requirements, including that the instructor be certified by a training organization (the NRA in this case) AND that the instructor's class be taught according to the certifying training organization's requirements. I.E, if you are teaching a NRA class, you have to follow the curriculum outlined by the NRA. The NRA curriculum for the course-of-fire for the PPITH class requires a MINIMUM of 98 rounds fired to complete all the required drills. Instructors are allowed to require more, but they must meet the minimum requirements in any case.

Horny Toad
September 7, 2003, 01:02 PM
nextjoe,

Yes, what you're going through is extremely annoying, but consider that those that live in firearm-law hellholes (like myself) can only dream of a day when we would have to be inconvenienced in such a way and for the purpose of obtaining a carry permit. :fire:



Horny Toad

Ringer
September 7, 2003, 01:13 PM
You'll be able to go from the Motor City, to DisneyWorld, to the Astrodome, and back home again locked and loaded, and without the "hassle" factor.
I think you are forgetting about my ole home state of Ohio :banghead: Last time I checked it was between Michigan and Florida. I'm planning a vacation next year and Ohio is the only place I'll be required to lock'r up.

veloce851
September 7, 2003, 01:23 PM
While I agree that it can be a major pain in the arse (depending on state and county you live in) just be glad you CAN have a CCW
I'm still in KS and I'm still being discriminated against because of my interest in exercising my God given Constitutionally upheld right.

Technically I can open carry here. But I can't afford the attorney I would need should I choose to follow the law to the letter T. Why would I need one? you ask... Because no one.. and I mean no one I have talked to has ever seen or heard of ANYONE exercising this right. So it's certain I would be hassled to no end and have to fight off unlawfull charges just for exercising my rights. :cuss:

So remember to be thankful for all those "hoops" you have to go through.
I can only dream of them. :fire:

Hypnogator
September 7, 2003, 04:39 PM
If it is truly a "shall issue" state and the county is requiring notarized letters of recommendation that are not part of the state requirement, I would submit my application without the letters, then file a lawsuit if rejected because of lack of letters.

Of course, the easiest thing to do is just jump through those extra hoops. :banghead:

While we shouldn't have to get permits to carry, if you can't hit a target at 15 yards, you got no business carrying a gun.

Agreed, BUT

A shooting test should always be required.

I have great qualms about requiring a "test" to exercise a Constitutional right. It is "common sense" that voters should be literate enough to know what candidates/issues they're voting for, but we've seen how "literacy tests" were used to eliminate voters of the wrong political/ethnic persuasion.

Hang in there. As has been stated before, if you quit, they've accomplished their goal in setting up those hoops.

PawDaddy
September 7, 2003, 05:41 PM
Being able to protect yourself/family is worth the trouble. But, noone should have to go through so much.

Here in Alabama, you only need a clean record. No classes, no training, nothing. I guess that can be a bad thing, but I would rather have it this way than to go through what some of you all have to go through.

I just got a card from the sheriff on Friday reminding me that it's time to renew my permit. I can either send my check for 15.00 in or go by the sheriff's office and pick it up.

Double Naught Spy
September 7, 2003, 09:38 PM
Y'all can complain about the horrors of what is or is not Constitutional all you want, but that doesn't seem to do squat to make things bettter.

nextjoe, if the slight inconvenience of getting a carry permit has troubled you that much, you may with to consider denying the permit and selling off your guns because if you should ever use one in a self defense situation, you can count on a whole lot of your rights being put on hold for a while as the investigation is understaken.

If all of y'all think the system is in such bad shape (and I am not disagreeing), then stop relying on places like TheHighRoad.org as some sort of group therapy support group of mutual admiration. All of us here agree that we should not need to have carry permits, so every time one of y'all reminds the other members of this, you waste your own energy telling us what we already know and we waste the time reading it. Spend your energies in a more appropriate manner and start working on those who don't currently share our perspective and encouraging fence sitters to come on over to our side.

I know, it makes you feel good to post how much you think the government is screwing us over. Great. So you feel good but the greater good is not being served.

nextjoe
September 7, 2003, 10:12 PM
Thanks all, except the last guy.

I feel a lot better about the whole thing today.

After spending TEN HOURS sitting in one of those awful plastic chairs that makes your butt numb and your back ache, sitting next to a guy who thought it was just hilarious to joke about planting a gun on someone you've just shot, I came home to find my dog in the middle of an acute allergic reaction and had to rush him to the emergency vet. I'd say it's understandable that I was a bit frazzled and frustrated. I'm going to jump through the hoops and play the game, since as Standing Wolf said, it's the lesser of two evils.

Thanks again.

Best,
Joe

SkunkApe
September 7, 2003, 11:01 PM
Nextjoe, I live in Wayne county also, and getting your permit is a pain in the behind.

I moved to Michigan from Ohio in 1988. I'd always been a strong gun rights supporter, and when I saw that Florida passed shall-issue CCW, I got interested in doing the same thing here. I wrote letter after letter to my elected officials and the newspapers, found a way to work in a discussion of the benefits of an armed citizenry into countless conversations with fellow gun-owners, attended the Brass Roots rallies, and even visited Lansing years ago when the original bill was being heard in committee.

If I had in 1988 what you have now, it would have saved me a lot of work.

Quit whining and get your permit.

CZ 75 BD
September 7, 2003, 11:11 PM
What PawDaddy said. :D Except in Jefferson County, it is $7.50. Here's the real kick in the shorts for you, we're reciprocal with Michigan! :p Keep the faith, brother. It's worth it. More CCW in the nation is a good thing.

Mute
September 8, 2003, 12:20 PM
Don't lose faith. There are some parts of CA where they'll make you jump through the hoops and pay your fees just to "properly" deny you the permit.

Hemicuda
September 8, 2003, 01:18 PM
NextJoe...

Notice where I'm from?

I too jumped through all those hoops... (and did it RIGHT after the law passed!) what a pain in the butt... but it was worth it!

it feels nice to strap a gun on and feel safe...

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