Black man with a gun - re: Laurel shooting


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MikeK
September 7, 2003, 08:37 AM
Go Ken!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36723-2003Sep6.html


washingtonpost.com
Md. Man Wants A .357 Magnum In Every Hand


By Courtland Milloy

Sunday, September 7, 2003; Page C01


Kenneth V. Blanchard is a firearms instructor and home safety expert who caters to a mostly African American clientele. He lives in Prince George's County and believes that he has a solution to the area's crime problems.

His Web site, www.BlackManWithAGun.com, shows him posing in front of a U.S. flag with the solution in his hands: a gun -- in this case, an H&K 9mm submachine gun.

"We can't make our neighborhoods safer with our heads in the sand and waiting for the 'Man' to protect us," Blanchard writes in a manifesto reminiscent of the old Black Panther Party. "I don't agree with the NAACP on gun control. We can't get different outcomes doing the same old things."

Last week, a tow truck driver named Glenn R. Ellis tried Blanchard's way. About 2 a.m. Wednesday, Ellis became a black man with a gun on a mission to stop the theft of his SUV. According to Prince George's police, the 37-year-old Laurel resident opened fire on four males -- two of whom were already in his SUV -- and hit the two who had not yet climbed in. One of them, a 15-year-old, was killed.

If you think Blanchard might be rethinking his gun-toting solution, think again. In the aftermath of what many are calling a tragedy for all involved, Blanchard is more convinced than ever that Ellis had the right idea.

"When a car thief gets shot and killed by a car owner, it sends a message," Blanchard said. "It slows down a lot of those people who've been conditioned to think that they can get away with anything."

Asked how he felt about the boy who was killed, he replied: "It's unfortunate, but why should criminals always get the sympathy? Frankly, I believe that what happened in Prince George's needs to happen a little bit more."

Blanchard, 41, was born in rural Virginia and moved to Prince George's when he was a child. An ex-Marine and former federal law enforcement officer, he started his mix of gun training, home safety analysis and campaigning against gun control in 1992 -- the height of the homicide and crack cocaine epidemics in the Washington area.

"There is no reason why we should be victims," Blanchard said. "When criminals learn that they have a chance of getting hurt before the cops come, a lot of this preying on the black community will stop."

Blanchard's views on guns apparently aren't shared by most African Americans. A recent poll by the National Opinion Research Center found that although fewer than half of whites favor government control of handguns, nearly 60 percent of blacks do.

Nevertheless, roughly 30 percent of both blacks and whites own guns, the survey found. Asked why they owned a gun, nearly half of whites said for hunting -- while nearly half of blacks said self-defense.

As Blanchard sees it, because of growing concern among blacks for their safety, the percentage is bound to increase.

"Lately, at a party or after a speech, someone will come up to me and say, 'What kind of gun would you carry if you were in such and such situation.' Or, 'How do you handle your guns in a home with children?' " he said. "I'm seeing more and more black people at gun shows, too, not necessarily buying, but showing some serious interest."

In recent weeks, D.C. Police Chief Charles H. Ramsey has declared a "crime emergency," while Prince George's State's Attorney Glenn Ivey has declared a crime "crisis." Homicides, sexual assaults, carjackings and burglaries -- among other crimes -- are on the rise.

Both law enforcement declarations call for more help from residents. Prince George's Police Chief Melvin C. High recently told The Washington Post that he wanted "a full partnership" in which "residents will do all that they need to do to be safer, and we will, on our side, do the things we need to do."

That was music to Blanchard's ears -- although it is unlikely that he and High would agree on what it means to be a partner.

"Having more elderly people walking around in orange hats won't cut it," Blanchard said. "Give me a six-inch, .357 magnum revolver. . . . Now that would be helpful."

E-mail: milloyc@washpost.com



© 2003 The Washington Post Company

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280PLUS
September 7, 2003, 09:08 AM
check this though,,,

"Nevertheless, roughly 30 percent of both blacks and whites own guns, the survey found. Asked why they owned a gun, nearly half of whites said for hunting -- while nearly half of blacks said self-defense."

which ALSO means nearly half of blacks said hunting and nearly half of whites said self defense...

so where is the point?

no point, just cleverly written stuff to skew the bias

:barf:

XLMiguel
September 7, 2003, 10:34 AM
"Fight Crime, Shoot Back."

Kenn is right on, and PG County is a cesspool of crime. Because of DC's and MD's gun laws (PG and DC share a common border), it's pretty much a safe work environment for the criminals. VA, just across the river, is more affluent (better 'shopping' for the crooks), but we don't have the same crime rates, and I think the fact that VA is 'shall issue' CWP has to play a significant role.

A while back we were visiting sister-in-law in NM. One of her neighbors, who was an Albuquerque LEO, told a story about an outbreak of the 'Blue Flu' during labor negotiations between the city and police. While the police were 'out', many locals organized neighborhood watches (NM was an open carry state, no 'shall issue" at the time), patroling with visible heat, and the crime rate when down to almost zero. Once the labor issues were resolved and the cops were back on the job, one of her co-workers was 'chatting' with a local habitual offender. He was asked why not much happened during the strike. His reply was along the lines of 'when you get caught by the cops, all you get is arrested. Them citizens will kill you . . . '

FWIW
Edit for typos.

Dannyboy
September 7, 2003, 11:06 AM
which ALSO means nearly half of blacks said hunting and nearly half of whites said self defense...
Only if you assume that those were the only two available/given answers.

BTW, isn't Ken a member here?

C.R.Sam
September 7, 2003, 12:14 PM
'when you get caught by the cops, all you get is arrested. Them citizens will kill you . . . ' Recidivism reduction.

Sam

4v50 Gary
September 7, 2003, 12:22 PM
Rehabilitation through reincarnation. Need to restore the English Common Law that permits the owner of chattel to use deadly force against a felony - including a property crime.

joeislove
September 7, 2003, 03:53 PM
"Having more elderly people walking around in orange hats won't cut it," Blanchard said.

Ok. I give. What's the deal with orange hats? I haven't heard of this before.

John/az
September 7, 2003, 03:55 PM
Orange hats: Makes it easier to locate their bodies. ;)

TheeBadOne
September 7, 2003, 04:03 PM
His reply was along teh lines of 'when you get caught by the cops, all you get is arrested. Them citizens will kill you . . . '
Sounds like the cops exercise restraint, the citizens exercize their trigger fingers :neener:

Moparmike
September 7, 2003, 04:30 PM
I will also support this initiative. Sounds like a great idea. Once I get an AK and a .45, where do I sign up?:D'

If he is a member here, I say "Good job. Keep up the good work and fighting the good fight. Do it for the children...:D "

MikeK
September 7, 2003, 09:01 PM
The orange hats are worn by the 'neighborhood watch' folks in some local jurisdictions - DC mainly. I think Kenn (sorry about the original misspelling) is a member here. He was on TFL.

BTW - If you ever have a chance to hear him speak do so - he's great!

Standing Wolf
September 7, 2003, 09:38 PM
Frankly, I believe that what happened in Prince George's needs to happen a little bit more.

Wrong. It needs to happen a lot more. Crime really ought to be made a high risk occupation.

seeker_two
September 8, 2003, 05:31 AM
"When a car thief gets shot and killed by a car owner, it sends a message," Blanchard said. "It slows down a lot of those people who've been conditioned to think that they can get away with anything."

Asked how he felt about the boy who was killed, he replied: "It's unfortunate, but why should criminals always get the sympathy? Frankly, I believe that what happened in Prince George's needs to happen a little bit more."


The reestablishment of Natural Consequences for one's actions...how enlightened...:evil:

Go, Man, Go....:cool:

Nightfall
September 8, 2003, 11:12 AM
You would think that after decades of trying this 'unarmed' approach in DC, etc. people would pick up on it's lack of results. But for some reason, what is common sense to people like Mr. Blanchard, is a simply horrific idea to the other sheeple. I suppose they're convinced that being defenseless will work, it just needs more time...

:banghead:

JohnBT
September 8, 2003, 11:34 AM
I highly recommend his book. JT

bigjoegood1
September 8, 2003, 12:10 PM
Dear Mr. Milloy,

I am typing this while listening to my "Pistol Packing Preacher" cd by none other than Kenn Blanchard.

I too am a black man with a gun and just wanted to drop you a line and let you know that your column on the "Black Man With A Gun" was well appreciated and in my opinion, right on time. Thank you. I subscribe to the theory that if you don't arm yourself, you harm yourself. Blacks have long been conditioned to hold firearms in abomination for fear of death. It should be the other way around and we should actually be more afraid of not having access to firearms for fear of death as the police do not have a duty to protect individuals even if they are aware of a crime being committed. They are only responisible for maintaining the safety of the general public (sure thing). I agree with Kenn when he said that we need more instances like the Glenn Ellis scenario to send a message to would-be thieves. Unfortunately, I have no sympathy for the young man who lost his life. I consider this a hazard of the job when one choses to help themselves to other peoples property in the middle of the night. I do however, pray that Mr. Ellis receives fair treatment throughout this ordeal. I'd like to shake his hand because it's high time that folks stood up and said, "enough of this crime stuff!"

BTW MikeK - Kenn is a great speaker and a good friend of mine and I feel blessed to know him. Kenn also started a gun club dubbed the Tenth Cavalry Gun Club, Inc. with chapters in NJ Baltimore and newly reformed in DC (I am president of the DC chapter). Check out his website and buy his book and cd. He'll even autgraph them for you. It's well worth it!

rock jock
September 8, 2003, 01:05 PM
I saw Kenn at CounterAttack in Dallas earlier this year. Great speaker. Very highly motivating.

BTW, if you ever have the chance to sit down with him, ask him about some of his stories as a fed LEO. Really incredible tales. "Federal LEO" belies the real truth of his role serving our country.

BlackManWithAGun
September 10, 2003, 02:50 PM
You guys make me blush!
I hope you don't mind me saying I'm your brother. For those that don't know me, I'm kinda mushy like that-- child of the sixties that I am. I appreciate kindness and encouragement. I love my country and those that share in my belief to defend her, our families and our way of life. Thank you for encouraging this brother across the miles, and sending me an email every once in awhile.

From where I sit, something just happened. It was quiet at first but now the noise is audible. People want to know about personal protection. The pendulum of all that has been wrong with America and its belief about firearms is about to swing back in the right direction. Like the Curtis Mayfield song, "People Get Ready"

Thinking Americans are tired of the rhetoric, lies and promises about safety and security. With the right approach we can turn this thing around. Talk to you soon.

Your brother,

Kenn

Thumper
September 10, 2003, 03:18 PM
Way to go, Kenn...

Good to see you back!

Brian Dale
September 10, 2003, 03:19 PM
I hope you don't mind me saying I'm your brother.

"Don't mind" ? You're very modest, Mr. Blanchard.

Thank you for all you've done for this country and for your fellow citizens, and keep up the fine work!

bogie
September 10, 2003, 03:27 PM
Now if we can just get the momentum sustained...

This past weekend in St. Louis, there were a bunch of folks who got their undies in a wad because the city schools had to close a bunch of schools, etc.... Sharpton was in town rousing the rabble, etc., and a boycott of the school system as declared...

You know, it woulda been VERY edgy to dress someone up as a klucker with a sign saying "please keep your kids home from school - we like it when you're ignorant."

Chipperman
September 10, 2003, 05:44 PM
"The pendulum of all that has been wrong with America and its belief about firearms is about to swing back in the right direction."

I hope you are right, Kenn.

It would be fitting IMO, if the Minorities of the Nation, who were prohibited from carrying by the initial Racist Gun Laws, would be instrumental in bringing about that change.

Keep up the Good Work!

Chip :)

Chipperman
September 10, 2003, 05:45 PM
BTW, What's a klucker?
Is that KKK?

bigjoegood1
September 12, 2003, 10:31 AM
Fox 5 showed Lark McCarthy interviewing Kenn this morning on the title of his website and his views on gun control, the shooting of the car thief, etc. Kenn went on to say that he doesn't promote violence but believes in accountability and responsibility and that concealed carry laws would go a long way int curtailing crimes because criminals would be more hesitant to attack a victim that could potentially defend themselves. Fox 5 even liste his site on-screen and linked to it on their website www.fox5dc.com.

MicroBalrog
September 12, 2003, 10:46 AM
And you people all think that was justifiable shooting?:what:

AJ Dual
September 12, 2003, 10:53 AM
And you people all think that was justifiable shooting?

Yep. (Although the story does not make it at all clear if the thieves offered any threat of violence back to the victim, perhaps they did...)

I know there's a large contingent out there who believes that property is not worth a life, even that of a criminal.

But look at it this way. How much of that man's life was "spent" earning that car? A year, two, three?

If I sat at work for three years of my time to pay for my car, and someone stole it, the way I look at it is that they just stole three years of my life. There has to be some line where personal property does indeed warrant deadly force. Your government and mine certainly thinks that an armed guard is warranted to protect money on it's way to the bank, just mere slips of paper if you look at it one way... If you try to grab a bag of money by force as they carry it into a bank or out of a store, you can bet you'll be shot. Is it ok to shoot over 30,000 slips of paper, but not shoot over a $30,000 car?

If you kill an old man who only had three years left to live is that okay?

An extreme example, but I think there is some parity there.

MicroBalrog
September 12, 2003, 10:56 AM
I understand how it's justified to shoot someone taking property by violent force (robbery) - that's not just about the property, but about the violence too.

But shooting someone (esp. a 15-yo) over a pickup truck? Do you really think property is worth more than life?

Nathaniel Firethorn
September 12, 2003, 10:57 AM
"When a car thief gets shot and killed by a car owner, it sends a message," Blanchard said. "It slows down a lot of those people who've been conditioned to think that they can get away with anything."I'm going to have to disagree with Kenn on this one. Aside from the facts of self-defense law, there's the issue of being counterattacked. All other things being equal, a vehicle is simply not worth me losing my life, and my wife losing her husband, to some toad car thief.

- pdmoderator

AJ Dual
September 12, 2003, 11:10 AM
But shooting someone (esp. a 15-yo) over a pickup truck? Do you really think property is worth more than life?


You're not putting it in the correct context.

The question should be: "Do you really think property is worth more than someone else's life?"

podmoderator's reply is a different answer, "My property is not worth risking my life to defend it." A potentially wise answer depending on the property, and your own personal aversion to risk, but still a personal choice that does not address the morality of deadly force to stop theft.

Micro, if a Palestinian was running up to your family's home (empty, and your family safe, for the sake of argument) with a lit molotov cocktail would you shoot? Your home and everything in it is "just property" and that Palestinian is definitely in posession of a "life".

No flames, just wondering if you see property vs. life an absolute or not.

Nathaniel Firethorn
September 12, 2003, 11:49 AM
OK, Andrew:

"Thou shalt not murder."

No exceptions for the BG violating "thou shalt not steal."

- pdmoderator

bigjoegood1
September 12, 2003, 11:53 AM
IMHO, the end justifies the means. I'd be willing to bet that not one car or apartment has been broken into in Glenn Ellis' complex in at least a week.

The young man took a gamble on stealing someone else's property and paid with his life. Not everybody is a resposible firearms owner who would only shoot in self-defense.

To expand the scenario to the extreme, Glenn Ellis may have even saved lives by stopping that young man on that day. I live in PG County, MD and the fact that Glenn Ellis is not behind bars right now awaiting trial signifies that the mood is changing here and that people are fed up with crime. You THR'ers outside of the DC metro may not know it but car theft is a severe problem here and it's kids just like Sockwell who run red lights in stolen cars and kill people. DC police have resorted to setting up roadblocks to check for stolen cars in some of the higher crime areas but this is only after a big stink was made about an elderly lady who was killed in a collision with some kids out joyriding in a stolen car. This of course was right after a 13 year old kid was killed by another kid in a stolen car (in the same neighborhood).

Will Ellis be charged with a crime? You bet, but it doesn't seem like anyone is in a hurry to prosecute him. This is a calculated delay by the state's atty that sends a subtle message to would-be thieves - Proceed at your own risk. Look at what happened to little Ernest Sockwell, maybe we'll prosecute the guy who shot him, maybe we won't.

seeker_two
September 12, 2003, 12:58 PM
I hope you don't mind me saying I'm your brother.

Not at all. I just hope you don't mind admittin' to ME...:D

Natural Consequences at work, MB & pm. If you decide that your property is not worth defending to the fullest, why haven't you just GIVEN it away already? If it IS worth defending, then you'd better be playing to WIN---or you're just putting on a show...:rolleyes:

Murder (according to Dictionary.com)....

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

I don't see that Kenn had "premeditated malice" in the incident. And it will be up to the jury to decide if it is "unlawful".

Looks good to me, though...

MicroBalrog
September 12, 2003, 01:12 PM
I think, that given that the guy's life was not in danger, he could have tried to discourage the goblins ("stop or I'll shoot", warning shots, etc.), going for the less lethat response first.

At least that's what they taught me in the army.

bigjoegood1
September 12, 2003, 01:21 PM
Warning shots are illegal in Maryland as well. They carry reckless endangerment charges all their own. At least Ellis put the shots into the BG's and not into some innocent's bedroom window.

DigitalWarrior
September 12, 2003, 01:33 PM
A theif is a lowly creature, not a human creature. A theif feeds on the products of a good life.

You say that insurance will pay for it. Do you understand that insurance rates are tied to payout rates (or would be in a free market). The lower the payout rate, the lower the insurance rate. So you are advocating taking money from me (because I will pay for the theft in premiums) and giving it to someone who had his vehicle stolen by some punk he wasn't allowed to shoot.

Hows this for a bumber sticker:

Reduce Auto-Insurance rates, shoot car-theives.

bigjoegood1
September 12, 2003, 01:58 PM
DigitalWarrior,

That reminds me of the time when a guy I know just happened upon some BG's breaking into his car in the middle of the night. He fired two shots into his own car and scared the perps away and the next day, refusing to repair the holes, he posted an old target from one of his better days at the range across his front seat. Needless to say he had no more problems with anyone tampering with his car again. The message was clear - Thieves beware!

Zach S
September 12, 2003, 01:59 PM
he could have tried to discourage the goblins ("stop or I'll shoot", warning shots, etc.), going for the less lethat response first. While it may be useful in hosilte territory, a warning shot in a residential(sp) area is a needless hazard. If I miss my agressor on the first shot, they can assume thats a warning if they want.

The idea of a warning shot is pretty stupid IMO. If you cant justify deadly force why shoot? If you can justify deadly force why shoot and purposely miss?

olyAR73
September 12, 2003, 02:06 PM
"When a car thief gets shot and killed by a car owner, it sends a message," Blanchard said. "It slows down a lot of those people who've been conditioned to think that they can get away with anything."


Personal feelings aside, most states will convict for using deadly force in a property crime situation. Case in point: the gentleman in Tacoma, Wa. who chased down the teen who stole his vehicle, was recently convicted of 2nd degree Manslaughter. I dont have the link handy, but I can find it if someone needs it.

Im not saying it's wrong to use force to defend one's property. All Im saying is one should consider the reprocussions before they drop the hammer. Is it worth the court costs and possible jail time over a vehicle? To me it's not, but to others it may be.

Mostly Harmless
September 12, 2003, 02:07 PM
I hope you don't mind me saying I'm your brother.

Au contraire, mon frere!

I consider it a great honor. You do good work and I very much enjoy your writing.

As another child of the sixties, I'll happily raise a glass to you.

J.

mwithers72
September 12, 2003, 02:34 PM
I feel that the BG got what they deserve, I having experienced a stolen car(the car was missing for 2 days and when found had 5100.00 dollars damage done to it.) It does send a very understandable message to other prospective car thieves. I wish that more thieves would have the same fate. I have no sympathies for people that wish to let others work hard to get the things in life that they want and then just take it away without having to work hard to earn a living.

But….

With out knowing all that facts in the shooting just the ones presented in the first post, I cannot see where his life was in danger. In TN you cannot use deadly force if someone is stealing your car so long as they never come at you or cause you to believe that your life is in danger. Shooting someone that is getting into the car does not in my view present the existence of bodily harm. In this case he shot the BG’s that had not got into the SUV. (It doesn’t state weather or not they were in the process of getting in or not.) This does not make it self-defense because there was not a foreseeable risk of death or serious bodily harm. That’s how the law interprets it; at least in TN it may be different where you live.

I hope that the man will receive a light slap on the wrist and will be allowed to carry on.

it leaves a very undeniable impression "theves beware"
:D

MikeK
September 12, 2003, 02:43 PM
I'd be willing to bet that not one car or apartment has been broken into in Glenn Ellis' complex in at least a week.

I've been wondering the same thing. A freind's son is an EMT in Laurel. There are areas they won't go unless there is a police escort.

XLMiguel
September 12, 2003, 06:02 PM
FWIW, Kenn was on WTTG (Ch. 5, Fox) this morning, gave the usual good account of himself as a great proponenet of 2nd A. rights.

It still isn't clear about what really went on that morning, but I could see a case for a good shoot based on disparity of force (4 on 1). If the thieves had a brain :rolleyes: they'd have split when confronted. They got what they deserved, IMNSHO. PG County has some seriously tough areas & residents. The PG Co Police have an 'image problem' with excessive force, but then again, they have a lot of 'challenging opportunities' with not only the locals, but a lot of scummies from DC like to 'shop' there.

I have little sympathy for theives that get hurt 'on the job'. Mr Ellis is a tow truck driver for DC, probably makes an OK living, but that truck was also likely the better part of an after-tax year's pay for him. They didn't take his life, just a good piece of it, kinda like 'grave bodily injury'.

Then again, as a tax payer and an insurance consumer, I don't really feel I should have to subsidize the terdballs' illicit activites, either. I wouldn't shoot 'em in the back, but if I caught 'em in the act and they weren't beatin' feet . . . .:fire:

Archie
September 12, 2003, 08:18 PM
in defense of property are in effect saying this:

The criminal's right to steal your property is of a higher level than your right to keep it.As has been pointed out, one's possessions represent a certain period of their life.

It is true that most places forbid deadly force in defense of "property". The bottom line is the government's indifference to the security of the regular citizen.

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