Vigilantism?


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twoblink
September 7, 2003, 12:34 PM
I'm having internal struggles..

On the news here in Taiwan, they showed some guy, (with police protection) running out of the police station amid people armed with baseball bats trying to beat the living snot out of him..

His crime??

Well.. Let's see, where do we begin..

He RAPED a 9 year old girl, and then afterwards, decapitated her and threw her body over the side of a cliff so she wouldn't talk..

He left "body fluids" shall we say, as evidence..

So right now, on the internet, the bid is up to only 3 hours; that's how many hours people think he would stay alive in jail "General Population". Nobody's betting more than 3 hours...

As someone who believes in a heaven and hell, I think he's got the VIP seat in hell.. And that does give me warm fuzzies..

Here's the problem.. I cannot possibly condone the actions of killing someone in prison, but if I hear that he's dead and prison, I'd probably give a silent cheer..

The police are having problems. Nobody cares if he's sentenced to 1 day or 1 month or 1 year.. He's not going to make it through the first day in prison.. That's pretty much a given. So the police have him in isolation right now, and don't know what to do..

He's going to prison... while he awaits a 308 to the back of his head, but I don't think that bullet will ever hit him, he's not going to make it to that day..

BUT.. do I cheer for the prisoners?? Because this guy's just gotta die for his crimes..

So I'm a bit mixed.. thoughts?

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Mark Tyson
September 7, 2003, 12:38 PM
The problem with vigilantism is target identification - you don't want to kill the wrong man by mistake. That's one reason we in the US have our justice system biased against the prosecution. Vigilantism is only justified in cases of self defense or in cases of social breakdown in my opinion.

PS - are private firearms legal in Taiwan? Just curious.

4v50 Gary
September 7, 2003, 12:42 PM
Vigilantism arises where the citizenry believes that law enforcement is incapable of performing its mission. Like Mark says, the problem is target identification. There is no reasoning with a mob and it's very likely that innocent parties can be (and have been) killed.

TallPine
September 7, 2003, 01:23 PM
The other question is if the criminal injustice system has any better batting average at punishing the right person than vigilantes ....?

Brian Dale
September 7, 2003, 01:25 PM
Vigilantism, as I understand it, is taking on the job of Law Enforcement, the courts and the system of punishment (the old Roman vigiles were the night-time fire watch, IIRC). That said, I agree with Mark and Gary, except that self-defense is not vigilantism. It's not going out to catch bad guys; self-defense is stopping an attack. Vigilantism is the meting out of justice by regular people who are not sworn LEOs, courts or prisons. The job of LEOs, courts or prisons includes making sure that the guilty are correctly identified and that what is administered is justice.

We (the United States, Taiwan and other such countries) are better places, and we who live here are better off, than most other places in history and the modern world, in part because the civil rights of accused people and the fundamental human rights of convicts are held to be inviolate, as are our own rights. We feel justifiable rage at the perpetrators of such heinous, brutal acts as this man's crimes. We cannot permit rage to change who we are, who we say we are, and who we must be. We have mechanisms in place to deal with violent criminals. We have paid the monetary and bureaucratic costs of maintaining the State apparatus. We must let them operate.

If we let the mob exact justice here, the mob feels its power. The effects on the country in the long run will be worse than if this psychopath had never been caught. Criminals in prison do not have the right or the authority to punish others. Protect this vicious piece of garbage in prison until he can be executed by official means. :fire:

twoblink
September 7, 2003, 04:19 PM
No firearms allowed in taiwan :cuss:

I'm definitely against the idea of mob taking the job of being judge, jury, and executioner..

But I have to admit, in this case... I understand where the mob's coming from..

Hkmp5sd
September 7, 2003, 04:25 PM
There is also a fine line between vigilantism and revenge. Much of what is called vigilantism today is nothing more than payback. As in this case, the mob is not concerned with enforcing the laws because of an incompetent or unjust legal system which is failing to do it. They are irate over what the guy did and want to give him a taste of the pain to which he subjected the victim.

Baba Louie
September 7, 2003, 06:26 PM
Thoughts?

Dead man walking.

Adios

techmike
September 7, 2003, 06:41 PM
They are irate over what the guy did and want to give him a taste of the pain to which he subjected the victim.



A very astute observation. Given the nature of the crime I think payback is in order. I would like to se the family allowed to carry out the vengance. If it were my child I'd want to pull the trigger and KNOW that the guy was dean not going to hert a kid again EVER! :fire:

Ian Sean
September 7, 2003, 07:02 PM
I have a 9 year old daughter myself, Prison? this guy gets what he deserves. Give the girls father a belt sander and a cordless drill and mr. scumbag for an hour.

This isn't vigilantism in my book, sounds like they have this perp and he is guilty beyond a doubt and the because of the horrendous butchering of a little girl, people want more than prison time for him. I have no problem with capital punishment in these types of cases.

In my book hurting little kids is the worst crime that could ever be done , I have 0 sympathy.

Rantings from a "DAD".

RVSinOK
September 7, 2003, 07:13 PM
AMEN, Ian! If this guy is guilty (and the presence of his "bodily fluids" would seem to make that a very valid assumption), a .308 to the head is too good for him. In this kind of circumstance, I think the guilty party should suffer significantly MORE than the victim did. I know if it was my 9 year old daughter, that would give me the best closure possible. (not that there could possibly be any "good" closure, but that would make it somewhat easier to live with.)

If that opportunity didn't present itself, I would be almost as satisfied throwing him into the prison and "looking the other way" for a little while......


Don't MESS with my KIDS!!!!

:fire:

jsalcedo
September 7, 2003, 07:13 PM
Just like the serial molester that got killed in prison last week.

good riddance.
It seems the prison population has a different view of justice.

Even the lowest of the low in our society are sickened by folks that hurt children.

There are some crimes so despicable that if the guy got off on a technicality
he wouldn't survive 5 minutes on the street.

Why can't something like this happen to Roman Polanski?

techmike
September 7, 2003, 07:30 PM
Why can't something like this happen to Roman Polanski?

Because he doesn't spend enough time in Places like TX, TN or KY.:D

Standing Wolf
September 7, 2003, 07:40 PM
...some guy, (with police protection) running out of the police station amid people armed with baseball bats trying to beat the living snot out of him...

I don't understand why he was leaving the police station in the proverbial "first place."

Ian Sean
September 7, 2003, 07:53 PM
Why can't something like this happen to Roman Polanski?

When you get down to brass tacks that little worm Woody Allen as well.

goon
September 7, 2003, 08:41 PM
I have to say, I understand where they are coming from.
I would like to say that I would never resort to such measure, but I am not sure that I wouldn't.
I just don't know if I could repress the urge if someone did something like that to one of my friends or loved ones.
I can't really fault them for being subject to human emotions.
If those statements bother you, let my family and friends alone and you won't have to worry about it.

Archie
September 7, 2003, 09:18 PM
This question As someone who believes in a heaven and hell, ... I cannot possibly condone the actions of killing someone in prison, but if I hear that he's dead and prison, I'd probably give a silent cheer... do I cheer for the prisoners?? Because this guy's just gotta die for his crimes...belongs more on the Christianity website than here. It seems we are a group of people who have serious moral standards. Twoblink in particular recognises the disparity between his sense of right and wrong and his desire for revenge.

As a Christian, I cannot be happy in the thought of someone going to hell for eternity. As a Christian, I also recognise good and evil; this perpetrator is evil. For the sake of this discussion, we shall assume the suspect in custody is guilty, and reasonable evidence exists to prove that case. By the laws of pretty much everywhere, he is sentenced to death. Other than perhaps his mother and a small group of capital punishment protesters, no one sheds a tear. The law is clear in the matter, and public sentiment follows.

However, in the West, we don't execute criminals in revenge. As punishment, yes; by the way, punishment is not revenge. Punishment is a corrective action, in that we teach children not to lie and steal cookies and such. More than that, we execute to protect society from the dangers of this particular criminal. In the instant case, we don't want this person to rape and murder any more children.
{Oddly, our system of justice and laws (in the West in general and the US in particular) is based on the Mosaic system of law. The Ten Commandments and the proceedural directions accompanying them. That is just a side issue here.}

However, as Christians, we are commanded to teach and convert all people, to pray for them, and attempt to convince them to believe in Jesus Christ. The goal is to keep them from hell.
Not that this particular specimen isn't worthy of hell.
But the Bible says we all are worthy of hell. Maybe not for what we do to children, but what we do to and about God.

Twoblink, you say you believe in heaven and hell. I don't know that makes you Christian. As a Christian, I can recognise the evil done and the demand for judgement. I cannot celebrate a soul going to hell for eternity. I certainly have more sympathy for the victim than the perpetrator, but the victim is gone and past anything I can do.

As to execution: Execution is the final step in the realization that this person is a threat to society. Much like the "putting down" of a rabid dog. We do not take revenge on a rabid dog, but we recognise the dog cannot be allowed to roam free; and is dying anyway. Executions should be adminstered as quickly and cleanly as possible.
Mr. Ian Sean, I sympathise with your feelings. My daughter was nine, some years ago. So were both my sons. I can only imagine the pain and frustration of the parents of this child. I don't want to know any better. But I bet you would quickly sicken of tending to this perpetrator with a power drill and a sander. I don't think you have within you to be what this perpetrator has become.

As Christians, we must pray for this perpetrator to ask God for forgiveness. (Not be turned loose, the civil laws are different.) We must pray for the parents of this child. They often are forgotten, but they hurt and are going through hell right now. Last, we all ought to thank God we are not involved in closer than we are right now.
--------------------------------
Thanking God for His mercy,
Archie

Bigjake
September 7, 2003, 09:43 PM
:cuss: him, let him cook

seeker_two
September 7, 2003, 09:57 PM
Vigilantism arises where the citizenry believes that law enforcement is incapable of performing its mission. Like Mark says, the problem is target identification. There is no reasoning with a mob and it's very likely that innocent parties can be (and have been) killed.

Would it be "vigilantism" in this case---where there's incontrovertable proof of the perp's guilt?... :scrutiny:

I think, in the case of his prison "lifespan", that it wouldn't be vigilantism. It would be more like "natural consequences" for one's actions.


Darwin at work, so to speak....:evil:

bigjim
September 7, 2003, 10:39 PM
Archie said: As to execution: Execution is the final step in the realization that this person is a threat to society. Much like the "putting down" of a rabid dog. We do not take revenge on a rabid dog, but we recognise the dog cannot be allowed to roam free; and is dying anyway. Executions should be adminstered as quickly and cleanly as possible.

I agree here Archie 100%. I also think it should apply to GOD. Haveing someone roast in hell forever because they did not worship you by the numbers when you are all powerfull and could have prevented the "bad" behavior from taking place is morally reprehensible, at the very least negligent. Anybody up for a class action?

G-Raptor
September 7, 2003, 10:41 PM
Law or no law, there is such as thing as justice. Justice demands that this guy gets his one way ticket to hell punched ASAP - whether it's an executioner's bullet, a gang of diseased prisoners, or a mod of citizens with baseball bats makes no difference to me.

Personally, I think the image of a street full of angry citizens with bats sends a stronger message to the next POS than a nice clinical execution by the state. Jeffery Dalhmer ate people (literally) for his own entertain and because he didn't like the steaks at the local grocery. He got his in prison - didn't bother me a bit.

As stated, the problem with vigilantism is target identification. It appears that "the authorities" have addressed this problem. Whatever happens, happens.

jizzacked
September 8, 2003, 03:34 AM
is there a betting pool online that I can put my wager on his time of expiration? :D

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