K31 versus Savage 110


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akolleth
September 10, 2008, 03:00 PM
I am thinking of getting a longer range rifle than the typical milsurps that I have right now. I am looking at the K31 or a Savage 110 in 30-06 as choices. I am not looking for a rifle to compete with bench rest guys, but more to be able to hit the target consistantly at 400-600 yards.

These two are catching my eyes for thier price point (around $200 for either used) and both have a good reputation for accuracy.

Which of the two would you go with? Does eith have an edge for accuracy, reloading costs (I will be reloading), or the likes?

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Floppy_D
September 10, 2008, 03:10 PM
7.5x55 brass is hard to come by. Optics are a pain for the K31. The 30-06 will be easy to find brass for. The K31 is a better made rifle, IMO (hold the two of them and make your own call here).

If you don't plan on using any sort of optics, look at the K31. Otherwise, I'd go with the Savage.

elmerfudd
September 10, 2008, 03:21 PM
If you're not a lefty, then I'd go for the K31. They really are some fantastic rifles. I get 5 shot groups that measure about 1.5" at 100 yards using the iron sights and surplus ammo. With a scope I'm sure it would shoot sub-MOA. They make a good mount for them too, but it's offset to the right side about an inch. So if you're a righty, you should get a good cheekweld with it. The K31 will also go up in value. They're great rifles and they're not making any more of them. I bought mine in great shape for $125 about 2 years ago. Now it's probably worth $225.

Since you're planning on reloading, the 7.5 Swiss cartridge shouldn't be a problem as it uses standard .308 bullets.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
September 10, 2008, 03:29 PM
and from what I hear from other reloaders,

284 Winchester brass resized will work for the casing. I may need corrected though, as I don't reload...yet.

skinewmexico
September 10, 2008, 04:58 PM
Get the Savage. And if you really get into it, you can re-barrel it to some 6.5 pretty cheap.

hardwarehacker
September 10, 2008, 05:09 PM
Grafs has 7.5x55 brass from PRVI at 500 for $190. AIM sells PRVI loaded ammo, 200 for $108 (FMJ) or $113 (SP). If you buy a K-31, probably a good idea to lay in one or the other at the same time since the supply is not very reliable.

mgregg85
September 10, 2008, 05:24 PM
I deer hunt with a savage 110 .30-06 and it works great but in your case I would get the K31. It is accurate and collectable, who knows how much longer they will be easily available, savage will most likely be cranking out 110s for the next 20 to 30 years.

Get the K31, if it turns out that you still want the savage, wait a little bit and get it too.

aubie515
September 10, 2008, 08:29 PM
I don't know if I could compare a K31 to a Savage. Both shoot well, but the K31's action is the selling point. K31's have a lot of great history and makes them unique. All of the Savages I've ever owned were good shooters, but I sold every one of them. The action on the Savages are sub par at best.

It's your money, so spend it wisely. If it was my money, I'd go K31 because they are drying up. You can always buy a Savage down the road.

HM2PAC
September 10, 2008, 09:01 PM
I'm a big Savage fan, but if you reload, get the K31.

It's on my short list for MilSurps.

ReadyontheRight
September 10, 2008, 09:10 PM
I say get the K31. There were only 500K made. It's a finely-crafted rifle that will make you smile everytime you shoot it.

Of course, you will likely also wince on the cost of ammo, but you will be reloading, so you should be fine once you've tracked down the right brass.

Nothing wrong with a Savage, but there are a lot more of them out there...and they are making more.

MAKster
September 10, 2008, 09:10 PM
If you want to hit targets at 400-600 yards you are definately going to need a scope to see anything. There is a scope mount for the K31 that doesn't require permanently altering the rifle but it's more expensive than your standard mount that would go on a Savage. Also, 30-06 ammo can be bought anywhere in a great selection. 7.5x55 ammo would have to be ordered over the internet or bought at a gunshow. I would only buy the K31 if your main desire is to buy a milsurp.

556A2
September 10, 2008, 09:55 PM
A well built rifle that isn't made anymore that is chambered in a hard-to-find oddball caliber, and requires a separate scope mount.

or

A well built rifle that has an easily adjustable trigger, chambered in the most common sporting cartridge, with tons of aftermarket support, and is scope ready out of the box.

As a former K-31 owner, I would highly recommend the Savage.

PotatoJudge
September 10, 2008, 10:04 PM
The K31 has some pretty decent accessories in the $70 range like a scope mount, muzzle break, and bipod adapter. You might be better off buying an extra stock (there's a guy online selling them for $30 or so) and cutting it to fit you, adding a recoil pad, sling swivels (especially for a bipod) and topping it off with a scope mount. Ammo is available at gunshows, mail order, and a sometimes the local gun store. It's not all that hard to find right now. You'd probably spend more on the K31 in the end, but it'd make a fun and easy project that will give you a nice and unique package in the end.

Soybomb
September 11, 2008, 12:07 AM
I just don't think the caliber of the rifles needs to come into play. Prvi makes 7.5 rounds now so availability and price is quite decent and the brass is reloadable. They reload with .308 bullets. Sure you won't be getting it at the local walmart but I would think most of us have a stash of ammo anyway and don't buy it a box at a time from the store.

marktx
September 11, 2008, 12:41 AM
I have no experience with the Savage....

Bought my K31 on a whim for $225 at a gunshop, it wasn't a particularly good looking example (wood pretty beat up) but it already had an S&K scope mount attached to the rear sight block which made it a decent value. Mounted a cheap Simmons 2x pistol scope on it and have loved it ever since. The K31 is one of my favorite rifles to shoot, no complaints at all. The action is smooth and easy to use. The trigger is outstanding, the best of any rifle I own. Swiss surplus ammo is cheap (50 cents a round, noncorrosive) and in my experience is very high quality. Bought a box of Hornady 7.5 just to have a box of something other than FMJ but have never felt a need to shoot any of it.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
September 11, 2008, 08:08 AM
Marktx,

You paid as much as I did for a factory original, all matching numbers rifle. Since then, I've restained it and steamed all the dents I could out of it.

marktx
September 11, 2008, 10:22 AM
You paid as much as I did for a factory original, all matching numbers rifle. Since then, I've restained it and steamed all the dents I could out of it.

Yeah, for the rifle alone it wasn't any bargain at first glance. It is a matching rifle, just not a cosmetically perfect one. The S&K scope mount runs around $70 and once the cost of shipping ($20) and a transfer ($20) for is factored in it the purchase made a lot of sense to me.

tbs
September 11, 2008, 10:47 AM
If your interested in a K-31 and your left handed there are options available.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2001-12/7063/K-31LHrear_reduced.jpg

They shoot pretty well also with a little tuning.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2001-12/7063/100-yardreloads.jpgreduced.jpg

ReadyontheRight
September 11, 2008, 10:50 AM
TBS -- Welcome to THR!

Where did you find a left-handed K31?

mainmech48
September 11, 2008, 11:08 AM
The only real problem with the Ste. Marie Graphics NG receiver mount is that it's, by necessity, offset in relation to the bore axis. This gives it the same problem as the M1-C and D sniper rifles: at any range other than the "zero" point, POI will shift both horizontally and vertically.

While for plinking or target shooting at a fixed distance this would be less of an issue, it sure takes a lot more skill and practice to learn to use effectively when the exact range is unknown, as it most often is in most other situations.

IMO, the B-Square-type "Scout" mount would be a more practical choice for all around shooting. FWIW, the Swiss military "sniper" version of the K-31 had several substantive change from the standard issue model in order to mount a scope over the bore and facilitate loading and ejection.

Still, the K-31 action is unique, fascinating and it's quite possible that the entire supply of them are already in the surplus market. While the supplies of surplus GP-11 ammo are finite and rapidly dwindling, the supply of new reloadable boxer primed cases and factory ammo is better than it ever has been, and more likely to remain that way than not for a goodly while yet.

Dies and data are readily available and the cartridge uses standard sized primers, 0.308" dia. bullets and does very nicely with a variety of canister powders.

IMO, you won't see another opportunity to own such a finely made rifle as the K-31 for such a small price again in our lifetime, if ideed ever.

As has been mentioned, a Savage 110 will be able to be had inexpensively for a long, long while.

Unless you can only foresee being able to own one rifle for the rest of your life, get the nicest K-31 you can find now and a 110 of whatever sort you prefer at a later date. In 5-10 years (maybe less), you'll very likely be able to trade a nice K-31 even for a brand new Savage, IMO.


PS: tbs, I may be the most envious and depressed southpaw on the planet at the moment. The only other K-31 I ever saw with a set of diopter sights like that was a dedicated competition target rifle in .308 Win. at a big show in St. Louis several years ago. Righthanded, the asking price was almost $2000 and it was gone a couple of hours later when I went back to drool over it some more. It's gotta be five o'clock somewhere...

SP Shop Foreman
September 11, 2008, 11:32 AM
Good taste, TBS.
This is my boss's full dress k31, but of course she has access to all the cool stuff being the owner's daughter.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/fulldress.jpg

This is the Left Hand Op System that's coming out soon.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/zfk3155/LHO.jpg

Allen
SP

tbs
September 11, 2008, 11:50 AM
Wow, thanks for the replies. The lefty oprod is made by Burgin who is a gunsmith in switzerland. St. Marie products is working on a lefty oprod that is soon to be released. The one from switzerland is very expensive but for me its worth it. I use this particular K-31 for the NRA national match course. I have 3 other K's in various states of modifications. The St. Marie diopter sights are a god send for competitive shooters and worth every penny. So, if you a facination for a really old well built rifle that is capable of shooting good scores the K-31 is worth consideration.

elmerfudd
September 11, 2008, 11:50 AM
The only real problem with the Ste. Marie Graphics NG receiver mount is that it's, by necessity, offset in relation to the bore axis. This gives it the same problem as the M1-C and D sniper rifles: at any range other than the "zero" point, POI will shift both horizontally and vertically.

Actually, all you have to do is sight in with your POI about 3/4" to the left and your POI will keep that horizontal offset out as far as you want to shoot. Not a big deal for the kind of game you would be hunting with a K31. There are some positive aspects to the offset mount too. First, you can still easily use the iron sights and second, you have a good cheekweld with either one.

SP Shop Foreman
September 11, 2008, 11:53 AM
Thanks, TBS. We're just waiting for the big boss's ok for the LHO run. He should be back soon now. I'm more excited about a prototype we have here in the shop. Its an elevation adjustable front sight for the Diopter.
As for the offset on the scope mount, if you sight it in at 1/2" (or 3/4" too) left at 100 yards you'll be fine out to 300 yards. I know this for an experience fact.

Allen
SP

Titus
September 11, 2008, 11:55 AM
mainmech, you can buy the Swiss Products diopter set shown at Brownells and Grafs, maybe elsewhere also. I have a set on one of my K-31s.

SP Shop Foreman
September 11, 2008, 11:57 AM
Only Grafs & Brownells here in the states. We have European distributors listed on the website.

Allen
SP

jws527
September 11, 2008, 02:03 PM
IMO, you won't see another opportunity to own such a finely made rifle as the K-31 for such a small price again in our lifetime, if ideed ever.

As has been mentioned, a Savage 110 will be able to be had inexpensively for a long, long while.Now there's a sentiment I can agree with.

The price of a used K31 on the surplus market is probably about 1/10th of what that same rifle would sell for if produced and sold new today.

madmike
September 11, 2008, 02:07 PM
A friend has a $165 K31, with a pressure screw he installed on the tang and a cryo-treated barrel. He shoots cloverleaves at 100 yards with iron sights.

If you can afford the ammo or reload, go with it. And really, 7.5 isn't THAT expensive for hunting or target shooting.

I love mine, too. The Swiss Watch of rifles.

Andrew Wyatt
September 11, 2008, 02:38 PM
"The only real problem with the Ste. Marie Graphics NG receiver mount is that it's, by necessity, offset in relation to the bore axis. This gives it the same problem as the M1-C and D sniper rifles: at any range other than the "zero" point, POI will shift both horizontally and vertically."

Zero it so the POI is offset the same amount the scope is and you'll be fine.

SeoulMan
September 12, 2008, 10:26 PM
I have a number of early 20th century military rifles, including a Swedish Husky M38, US 1903, Finish VKT Mosin, SMLE, Persian CZ long mauser, and my Swiss K31. The K31 is overall the best of them all. Its as accurate or better than the Finish Mosin, as smooth as the Persian CZ mauser (but the mauser has nicer wood), and there are many very useful accessories.

Hand loading is the best option. Get a Lee Hand Press, the Redding K31 dies, and basic scale & powder measure, and you can make some outstanding handloads.

I have the St. Marie scope mount, a bipod attachment, real bayonet, etc. It's great for collectors, shooters, handloaders -- the K31 is a LOT in one package.

mainmech48
September 13, 2008, 11:58 AM
The diopter sights on the rifle I saw in St. Louis weren't the St. Marie Graphics. If they were in fact marked with a maker's name it's entirely escaped me after all this time. The design differed a good deal, as I recall, but appeared to be quite as sophisticated. My best guess is that they were a European-made ISU-type and likely OEM.

I didn't handle the rifle or get a chance to examine it anywhere near as closely as I'd have liked to. I knew that there was no way I could afford to buy it, even if I could work-up some rationale that my wife could tolerate, so I didn't even ask. There were other folks at the table, too and I would've felt semi-guilty about wasting the fellow's time for the sake of my own idle curiousity when he had potential cash customers waiting.

It's the LH op system that really has me psyched. As a southpaw, it's often frustrating to get positioned perfectly, fire and then lose that perfect-feeling combination because I had to alter so many different variables just to operate the action for another shot.

35 Whelen
September 13, 2008, 02:42 PM
If you both, and paid $200 for each, in two years, the Savage would be worth about what you paid for it, but the K-31, I assure you, will likely increase 50% +/-. I know, because I at one time owned 5 K-31's. After having them for about 1 - 1 1/2 years, I sold three of them and made from 30% to almost 100% profit on them. About two years ago, the K-31'a could be had most anywhere fr around $100. Now most of them cost at least twice that.
The K-31's can still be had here: Widners Reloading and Shooting Supply (http://www.wideners.com/) for $185. This is a really good buy for this rifle.
35W

SP Shop Foreman
September 13, 2008, 03:06 PM
Mainmech, St.Marie and Swiss Products are one in the same, and the SP Diopters are not marked with the company logo.

Thanks
Allen
SP

chasw44
October 5, 2008, 06:07 PM
SP Shop Foreman: Per your post on 9/11 - "We're just waiting for the big boss's ok for the LHO run." Please let us know when the left hand op rod assy is available at one of your US outlets.

I have a K31 I bought from Simpson back before the current wave of imports began. Its a fine rifle and since I'm a leftie, your clamp on scope mount fits me to a tee. thx - CW

theotherwaldo
October 5, 2008, 06:33 PM
Frankly, I've gotten the Savage 110F (in .270, with Nikon Buckhunter scope and aftermarket laminated stock) instead of a k31 because the K31s down in my neck of the woods are beat half to death.

$300.00 plus for splintery stocks and scraped steel.

Sorry, I'll wait 'til my C&R comes in and then look around.

akolleth
October 6, 2008, 09:07 AM
Well to answer the question, I got a hell of a deal on a Savage 110 with a vintage El Paso Weaver V9 scope on Gunbroker. I got it for $190, and the scope is worth at least $75-100 in itself. Couldn't pass that deal up, even if she is a little homely in the stock regions.

http://san1.atlanta.gbhinc.com/GB/110715000/110715461/pix752189593.jpg

What won me over in the long run was the ability to change calibers in a flash.

jd46561
October 6, 2008, 09:56 AM
Go K31, you WONT regret it. I got around $300.00 in this set up,carbine and all. It shoots great.
carbine...$160.00
scope... $30.00 E-bay
mount... $50.00 trader forum
cheek rest...$30.00 trader forum

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/Swissrifles044.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/Swissrifles041.jpg

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
October 6, 2008, 01:29 PM
bought my K31 for 220 bucks. It's worth every penny.

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