7.62x25mm modern platform


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Neckshot5seven
September 11, 2008, 03:25 PM
I know this has been posted before, but here it is again. I was out at the range yesterday with a few 2 litre bottles of water. I had my PT1911 in .45ACP and my CZ52. I carry my .45acp wherever I legally can... But that little fireball of a cz packes some serious punch! I had a box of S&B fmj's and a box of Wolf Gold hollow points for the cz. I stacked 3 2 litre bottles back to back at 15 yards and had at it. The fmj zipped right through. However the Hollow point completely shredded the first bottle and only fragments penetrated the 2nd. I find this totally acceptable for a defensive round. I just hate carrying that clunky piece around.

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atblis
September 11, 2008, 03:31 PM
Truthfully, I think a good bit of the supposed punch is perceived. The pop from the muzzle makes it seem like the bullet is doing more. Kinda like loud cars seem faster to some people.

9mm will drive a 90 gr bullet at 1500 fps.
9x23 Winchester will put a 115 down range 1500+ fps
10mm will drive a 135 gr bullet at 1600 fps
Truthfully, the 7.62x25 doesn't do anything that other rounds don't.

hoosier8
September 11, 2008, 03:35 PM
Hmm, then check this out.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

7.62x25
Privi Partizan 85grain 1722 fps = 560 ft/lb

9mm
Corbon Self Defense 90grain 1500 fps = 460 ft/lb

10mm
Double Tap 135grain 1600 fps = 767 ft/lb WOW

9x23
Winchester 124grain 1460 fps = 587 ft/lb I didn't find the 115grain.

for comparison
5.7x28 FN 40grain 2133 fps - 404 ft/lb

I would have like to see the 10mm in the Box-O-Truth test. One factor for penetration could be the cross sectional area, much like the FiveSeven. The 7.62 is approx 58% of the cross sectional area of the 10mm. For instance:

Take the ft/lb and divide by the cross sectional area.
7.62 = 12.28 ft/lb per square mm
9 = 7.23 ft/lb per square mm Corbon
9x23 = 9.22 ft/lb per square mm Winchester
10 = 9.77 ft/lb per square mm
5.7 = 15.83 ft/lb per square mm

To get the same cross section power you would need the following approximate velocities for the same grains.
9mm Corbon = 1960 fps @ 768 ft/lb
9x23 Winchester = 1670 fps @ 768 ft/lb
10mm = 1795 fps @ 966 ft/lb

I think this is one of the reasons the 7.62x25 has such high penetration numbers in geletin and I believe that it does something different. With the smaller cross section, it is better at penetrating kevlar, not that you would actually need that. You can see that is why the 5.7 is good for the same thing.

ZeSpectre
September 11, 2008, 03:37 PM
Truthfully, I think a good bit of the supposed punch is perceived

You can go right ahead and believe that. I have a stack of 1" oak scrap boards with holes blown straight through 'em that says different. (not to mention what they did to a 3/4" steel plate I was stupid enough to shoot).

atblis
September 11, 2008, 05:18 PM
1722 fps, is that manufacturer's number or measured over a chronograph? S&B (what the op was shooting) runs about 1525ish. Don't know about the wolf (which is P.P. is it not).

I've shot the Cz52 plenty. A pistol round going through a 1" board isn't that impressive. 9x19 will do that.

(not to mention what they did to a 3/4" steel plate I was stupid enough to shoot).
What, put a ding in it?

JImbothefiveth
September 11, 2008, 05:33 PM
I think the 7.62x25 looks very interesting, at least on paper.
I too, would like to see a new gun made for the caliber.

Glock seems to make pistols in some less common calibers.(10mm and .357 sig.) Maybe they would do something in the caliber.

Or maybe you could beef up and convert a 1911.

Funderb
September 11, 2008, 05:45 PM
if the hollow pts expanded in the first bottle then good!
They did what they were supposed to do.
I dont see 7.62x25 in HP as such a bad PD carry.
They seem to do just as well as 9mm though they can be a little long in the penetration with FMJ.

Claude Clay
September 11, 2008, 06:05 PM
my cz 52 w/smg ammo went through 4 pine boards and a bucket of steam.
found the bullet 2 countries over buried in a farmers field amoungst some 7.62x54r ammo. :neener:

thebucket
September 11, 2008, 06:14 PM
my cz 52 w/smg ammo went through 4 pine boards WOW, you must have thrown that pistol hard and while fully loaded! :what: :p

hoosier8
September 11, 2008, 07:12 PM
Those numbers are published out of MidwayUsa, whether they are true or not, I cannot say. The point is that to get the same cross sectional foot pounds per square mm, you have to go a higher velocity in the larger calibers. That is why the 5.7 and the 7.62x25 are good at penetrating bullet proof vests when the other calibers aren't.

I believe, and someone can prove me wrong, that both the 7.62 and 5.7 will penetrate a Level III vest where the 9mm wouldn't. I believe that is why some PDs are picking up FiveSevens.

The CZ-52 and T-33 are interesting pistols but it is also now in their 50's. The T-33 is supposed to have a better chamber and the CZ a better locking device. I am no expert but I wouldn't mind seeing a modern pistol for the 7.62x25, just for fun.

I own a CZ-52 but will use it only at the range. I don't think I would carry it but I think it is an interesting C&R.

hoosier8
September 11, 2008, 07:33 PM
http://www.sb-usa.com/handgun_pages/handgun_sba76202.htm

Again whether their numbers are factual, this puts the S&B at about 11 ft/lb per square mm.

If it clocks at 1520ish then around 9.36, which will put it a little above the 9mm in the comparison but under the 10 in ft/lb per mm. So if you can load to at least 1600 fps then it still will do better in penetration than all but the 5.7.

I carry a 45 and for ease of concealment a couple of different 380s, so penetration is not something I am concerned about but it did make me think of what I should carry in the winter, when clothing can become a barrier to the slower larger bullets or smaller weaker rounds. I have seen ballistic tests on the web that showed the hollow points after going through layers of clothing and then gelatin, and they did not expand; whereas, they expanded beautifully without the layers in front.

atblis
September 11, 2008, 07:38 PM
Last time I chronoed S&B I got 1525-1550 fps.

only1asterisk
September 11, 2008, 07:41 PM
You can load some JHP's to an OAL that will feed through a 1911.

David

hoosier8
September 11, 2008, 08:11 PM
Interesting site on the 5.7, evidently it also depends on the type of bullet.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

KiltedClaymore
September 11, 2008, 09:52 PM
i'd like to see a Browning Hi-Power or a CZ 75 in 7.62x25....

hoosier8
September 11, 2008, 10:05 PM
I personally would like to see it in another CZ also.

sadp40
September 11, 2008, 10:12 PM
had a 7.63 mauser barrel for a 1911 i wonder if that would work with 7.62tok? i just didn't want to waste 100.00 on something that wouldn't work.

only1asterisk
September 11, 2008, 11:11 PM
The Tok will fit and fire in the Mauser, but the headspace will be slightly loose. Surplus Tok ammo isn't going to feed in the 1911.

David

woad_yurt
September 11, 2008, 11:48 PM
A decent, smaller-sized DA/SA pistol in 7.62 would be fantastic.

However, I think the TT33 & variants leave little room for improvement, IMO. I think that it's a totally underrated and underappreciated single action semiauto. It's dependable, reasonably sized, rugged, simple, accurate & a great shooter. I think they got the balance down pretty well; it doesn't kick like you'd expect it to. I have a soft spot for CZ 52s but they beat up my hand a little. The Tok (I actually have a Norinco 54-1, same thing) feels gentle.

For defense, that Wolf hollowpoint stuff does grevious damage. I've shot a different stuff with it and it makes a good mess.

There have been a few posts about bear defense calibers in woods guns. Wouldn't 7.62 FMJ be good? I mean, it goes through everything. It shouldn't have issues with a bear sternum or skull. I'd rather have it than a .357, which seems to be acceptable to many.

hoosier8
September 12, 2008, 12:01 AM
I picked up a CZ-52 for a good price and after reading many posts and web sites, I wouldn't mind picking up a T-33. The reason I didn't look for one in the first place were the looks. I know, so shallow! I will be keeping my eye out for a good deal in the future.

Other than those two and the SMGs I can't afford, I would still like to see a new variation.

From what I have read about the Mauser, you can shoot Mauser ammo in the CZ-52 and T-33 but not visa-versa, due to pressures. Don't know if that is true or not.

wnycollector
September 12, 2008, 07:16 AM
I went to the range yseterday with my Polish Tok. The 7.62x25 round this is like a laser out to 40 yards! Sper accurate and flat shooting. I would LOVE to see a modern pistol (or rifle!!!) in this caliber.

Jim Watson
September 12, 2008, 10:35 AM
The problem with a "modern platform" for 7.62x25 is that nobody now makes a pistol with a magazine well and slide stroke long enough. It would take tooling up for a new frame. I doubt anybody is going to do that, when the main interest is shooting commie surplus ammo. Is anybody here willing to pay $1000 for such a gun?

atblis
September 12, 2008, 11:10 AM
You know.

An AR Carbine Upper would be fun.

Don't know which magazines would work though.

only1asterisk
September 12, 2008, 11:22 AM
There is lots of work going on with the Tok in the AR15 right now. Marty at Teppo Jutsu (the 458 Socom guy) is getting a mag block ready for market that will surplus russian subgun sticks.

David

Neckshot5seven
September 12, 2008, 02:00 PM
I was looking pretty close to a friends EAA Witness in .38 super. It looks like I could use that platform and have someone make a barrel for it??

only1asterisk
September 12, 2008, 02:23 PM
I don't think the Witness will feed the surplus ammo, but you could try. People have rebuilt Witnesses in past days of IPSC to function with a 9mm casehead, but I don't know what the degree of difficulty might be. The 38 Super slide of the 1911 works pretty well with 9mm based cartridges but the Witness is it's own animal.

David

Jim Watson
September 12, 2008, 02:44 PM
I was looking pretty close to a friends EAA Witness in .38 super. It looks like I could use that platform and have someone make a barrel for it??

Just try loading his magazine with 7.62x25 and see if it fits. If it does, see if a round will feed into the chamber. It will probably only go partway but that should give you an idea of feasibility.

Finding "someone" in the barrel making business willing to fool with the job will be a challenge. Paying him for a one-off will be the next challenge. It won't be cheap.

Neckshot5seven
September 12, 2008, 05:40 PM
Witnesses come in 9mm It already has the correct casehead. The problems arise with only the barrel. I can get the .38 super or 10mm mags to work with a little work. I wish I had a 5way CNC and a program for the witness barrel

only1asterisk
September 12, 2008, 05:50 PM
The 9mm Witness and 38/10/45 Witness are different frames. I think you will have some problems using the 38 Super magazines in the 9mm. I could be wrong and it won't cost much for you to test.

David

JImbothefiveth
September 12, 2008, 06:12 PM
The problem with a "modern platform" for 7.62x25 is that nobody now makes a pistol with a magazine well and slide stroke long enough. It would take tooling up for a new frame. I doubt anybody is going to do that, when the main interest is shooting commie surplus ammo. Is anybody here willing to pay $1000 for such a gun
I think the appeal of the round is having a CCW size handgun with the ability to pierce body armor, (for those concerned about such things) using civilian legal ammo.
The 5.7 will also likely not have as much stopping power.

As for the slide length, maybe build it off a 10mm design? Isn't that 10x23, thus almost as long?

Deer Hunter
September 12, 2008, 06:28 PM
I want to see a 7.62x25 based on the 10mm.

Bigdtc
September 12, 2008, 07:27 PM
I contacted CZ through thier site months ago. They never gave a response.:fire:

Vern Humphrey
September 12, 2008, 08:31 PM
Clearly, the 7.62x25 is a ball of thunder, the ultimate defense cartridge.

The .32-20, on the other hand, is underpowered and obsolete.:neener:

atblis
September 12, 2008, 10:17 PM
I want to see a 7.62x25 based on the 10mm.
You still have a length issue. 10mm and 45 acp guns are the same size.

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