[2dogs]

Having read a number of books and articles on Waco, as well as having seen the fine film documentaries, it seems apparent that this was a terrible example of government over reaction, if not a down right crime of government commited against citizens of the USA. (OK, some of you are, I'm sure, going to disagree with that assessment- "paranoid" "right wing" comes to mind.......).

I've often heard and seen in print the opinion that "we" (you, me, citizens in general, gunowners etc) "did nothing" while this went on.

My question- is there anything a law abiding citizen could have or should have done at the time (easier in hindsight I guess) about what went on there?

(Seems I recall at the time talk of various "militias" going there- was that an option?)

[UnknownSailor]

Cameras. Lots and lots of cameras, especially the long lens variety. From all angles, front and back, and covering all roads into/out of the area.

However, at the time, there was no easy way for the "call to arms" to get out. No widespread internet, conservative talk radio was in it's infancy.

[2nd Amendment]

I think a big part of it was the simple fact nobody expected it. There was no reason for the confrontation itself but after it had dragged out so long there was certainly no reason to force a final confrontation. I know people who sat and watched it burn with no idea exactly what was happening at that point.

Today, I think you'd see the place crawling with cameras and camo. At least, I'd hope we've learned something...

[TallPine]

I think they had the area cordoned off way way back - like miles (?)

[pax]

Waco was the first real proof that I'd seen that our watchdog press had become nothing more than a spoiled lapdog.

As Sailor said, cameras would have stopped it. Just one network with the balls enough to violate the airspace over the place would have done the trick.

Would the feds have shot down an ABC chopper? I doubt it...

Would they have done all that they did at Waco, if each individual there were on camera? I really doubt it.

pax

Treat the media as you would any other watchdog. Stay calm, be friendly, let them sniff your hand, and never turn your back. -- Amy Sprinkles

[BlackArrow]

:fire: Because there's no "crying smiley".

[Robert inOregon]

Wacko's vs. JBT's. Wrong fight to intervene in when they're all criminally insane.

[G-Raptor]

I think 2nd Amendment has it partly right, nobody expected it. Most Americans couldn't conceive that the government would set fire to a building with 100 people inside. It was beyond imagining to most people.

The other consideration was the effort of the government to quickly demonize the folks there. The government and the press declared them to be brainwashed religious zealots, wife-swappers, and child molesters. Watching the ATF scrambling out of the 2nd floor window under a hail of bullets helped convince people that they were dangerous killers too. Obviously they were up to no good. Most people believed the govt was doing the right thing, until the place went up in flames.

With the information that has come out on Ruby Ridge and Waco, I think the public would look at it much different today.

But then, if it was a bunch of Muslims holed up in a building with guns...who knows?

[Gordon]

How come no Christian fundamentalists highjacked any planes and crashed them into ATF/FBI command post? I don't think they had any AA. Would have started the 2nd cival war!:D

[Sergeant Bob]

The government and the press declared them to be brainwashed religious zealots, wife-swappers, and child molesters.
Wasn't the original reason for the siege because Koresh supposedly had a "large cache of illegal weapons"? Then they said all the other crap to get public behind them? If so, what ever became of all those illegal weapons?

[80fl]

As posted by Robert in OR:

Wacko's vs. JBT's. Wrong fight to intervene in when they're all criminally insane.

As far as JBT's being CRIMINALLY insane, no argument here; however, labeling the Branch Davidians as criminally insane might be a stretch.

Were there crimes committed at Waco? Probably.
Was there child molestation going on in Waco? Possibly.
Was there sufficient reason to torch 'em? Not in MY country!

[johnr]

I'll never forget what I heard on Mike Reagan's radio show years ago...

Regarding Waco, he asked,

"Where's the outrage?"

First caller up had the perfect summation:

"Waco was about instilling fear...
...so there would be no outrage--"

[TheeBadOne]

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/pdf/finalreport.pdf

The report is in pdf form and you need Adobe Acrobat to view it. Size 3.84 mb. Lots of material covered, including the fire. Read it.

[Kamicosmos]

When it happened, I supported the gov't because of what was said by the media. Waco was a bunch of religious psychos molesting thier kids and stockpiling weapons to use "sometime, someplace". I don't think they should have been burned alive though. I meant support in sieging the place, and getting Koersh to court.
Ruby Ridge was built up again as a paramilitary neo nazi gun running psycho. Get him to court, don't shot his dog, wife and baby.

Now, since I'm a self-admitted conspiracy freak...
I have been researching both situations, read a ton of books written by survivors/participants of both sides. Makes you wonder *** the gov't was really trying to do in these cases. Waco I'm still debating on. Ruby Ridge was, IMO, a case where the gov't created a criminal, then went out and killed him. Almost like an exercise to see if they could pull it off. Really worries me about the typical SHTF stories. Guns are suddenly illegeal, lets go kill all the new criminals....(and I still haven't read Unintended Consequences yet. But that's cause I don't want the gov't to find out I bought it. *Adjusts tin-foil cap*)

anyways...better cut this short before I write a novel about gov't conspiracies...

In short, Burns my hide...okay, bad choice of words there...

Kamicosmos

[2dogs]

I'll never forget what I heard on Mike Reagan's radio show years ago...

Regarding Waco, he asked,

"Where's the outrage?"

First caller up had the perfect summation:

"Waco was about instilling fear...
...so there would be no outrage--"

johnr

Boy, if that doesn't sum it up with frightening clarity.................:scrutiny:

[Waitone]

Unintended consequences takes hold. If they were trying to instill fear in those who would opposed that kind of action, I suspect they failed. Its one thing to think or assume there is a dangerous animal slinking around in the underbrush. Its another think to see the dangerous animal in the open.

[foghornl]

As i recall, the gov't moved the press back at least 1 mile, maybe 2, shortly before the Waco fire started. Some mumbo-jumbo about reporter's safety.

[Gordon]

Yeah and didn't call any fire trucks or ambulances!:fire:

[geekWithA.45]

Reporters on short leashes..."for their safety", of course.


It's too easy to lie when the press isn't free.

[PATH]

I guess the question to ask is simply, "Are your religious beliefs approved by the BATF?"

If they wanted Koresh they could have simply waited for him in town and arrested him there. He was known to go into town was he not?

The BATF along with Reno and the Clintonistas wanted to send a message and they did. What was the purpose of assaulting the acompound with armored vehicles? It was to instill fear!

I know that many will say get out the tin foil hats. The FBI and its director never influenced national policy by threatening people with exposure of info. J. Edgar was too upstanding for that. There was never an enemies list made by any U.S. President. The IRS, FBI, and CIA, were never used to intimidate people. Must be the tin foil hat crowd that thought this up!

Yes you can get off those shots from a Carcano into a small target that is moving. Try it sometime on your range!

The government does not intend nor can it physically come after you all. What it does is pick out individuals and set a tone of fear.
It shows what they can do to "you". A few examples are meant to keep the rest in line.

The BATF harasses a few people and it goes by the way. Shooters/Gunowners let it go by the way. Politicians only fear numbers and money. Tens of thousands of pissed off people, campaign contributions to RKBA candidates, and an in your face militancy about our rights will serve our cause well.

I do not swear allegiance to the government of the United States. I swear allegiance to the Constitution and its protection. Every government worker and official swears to protect and defend the same.

It is the duty of every citizen to question his government. It is not advocacy of a violent overthrow but a call to legally remove the scoundrels from office by all means legally fair or foul.

Violence is a response only when all peaceful and legal means of redress have been exhausted. Does your government follow this policy in dealing with the citizenry? I daresay that Waco and Ruby Ridge indeed show that to not be the case.

As for any government folks reading this post!:neener:

[oldfart]

"My question- is there anything a law abiding citizen could have or should have done at the time (easier in hindsight I guess) about what went on there?"

I think the crux of the matter lies right there: Any citizen or group of citizens who would have attempted to do "something" to avert what finally happened would no longer be "law abiding." The FBI, who had thoroughly indoctrinated 99% of America with their story about alleged child abuse would have used the same propaganda tactics against anyone who opposed them in the media. If anyone had taken up_arms against the JBTs they would have called up the National Guard or select elements of other federal police agencies to quell that uprising.
Armies have always used this sort of demonstration to keep the citizens under control. Rome did it when they killed every tenth person in a group, hence the term "decimate." Hitler's forces killed off whole villages to show neighboring towns what they could expect if they resisted. The VC did it in 'Nam to keep the locals from helping our forces. In honesty, I have to say that we've done it too, though ususally we're able to keep it quiet afterward.
At Waco we were given notice of what we could expect if we were ever so foolish as to think we could challenge our keepers.

[Smoke]

I still contend that David Koresh is a poor martyt for the RKBA movement and he should not be discussed as such.

Did the Government handle it wrong? Maybe, maybe not; but were YOU on site? If not, how do you know?

Did David Koresh do anything wrong? Yes.
Arms violations? who knows, but it was suspected and authorities had enough proof to obtain a warrant.

Should David Koresh have shot at L.E.O.'s serving a valid warrant? Never!

I wish this would all be left as an example of a mistake, and quit being discussed as an example of RKBA.

[M1911Owner]

My blood still boils when I think of how the press sold out the truth to the Clinton/Reno spin.

Several years after the event, I saw an interview with one of the reporters who was there. He mentioned, in passing, that there had constantly been hundreds of people out there demonstrating against what was happening. Did we ever see any coverage of that? No! They spiked the whole thing. They'll do a long TV news story about 15 anit-war demonstrators in downtown San Francisco, but nothing at all about the hundreds of demonstrators who were at Waco for weeks.

There was the constant use of the government's language to whitewash what was happening. The Branch Dividians were a "cult." Their building was a "compound." The people inside were "cultists." Noboby was willing to use the words anyone else would use: It was a church. Our goverment sent over a hundred heavily-armed federal agents to attack and lay seige to a church with the whole congregation inside. They attacked with tanks and burned down a church with the congregation inside, including women and children.

(I don't even want to get into the question of who was at fault for the fire. The facts are that the government laid seige to a church for weeks, then attacked it with tanks, at which point it burned down. Is anybody going to seriously contend that it would have burned down anyway if the government hadn't been attacking it with tanks?)

And, if I'm not mistaken, the weapons that the government was after were completely legal for them to own. The only issue was whether they had paid the $200 transfer tax on them and filled out all the right paperwork. So, for $200 in taxes, they attacked a church full of women and children, laid seige to it for weeks, and then immolated dozens of women and children. And nobody in the news media was outraged??!!!!

[rock jock]

Was there sufficient reason to torch 'em? Not in MY country!
I can't believe that this is still being recycled as true, despite the videos showing the Davidians themselves setting the compound on fire. This is the kind of tin-foil hat conspiracy that gives gun-owners a bad name.

[MitchSchaft]

Arms violations?

Read your 2nd Amendment. That warrant was not valid.

[2nd Amendment]

Videos showing the Davidians setting the place afire? Interesting, I've followed this from day one and never seen any such creature. I have heard lots of talk about it but these supposed videos never seem to surface, just lots of "interpretation" of them.

The facts about the Waco Massacre:

Koresh could have been arrested at any time. Alone. Without confrontation.

The weapons found afterwards were legal AND actually numbered less, per capita, than the average number of firearms for Texans.

The warrant was incorrect.

The feds cycled thru a variety of claims, from guns to drugs to mollestation to abuse. Each claim fell apart at some point.

The feds fired first. The feds shot people as they tried to leave. the feds refused to allow people out.

In short, the entire action was based on no real evidence, failed to follow proper procedures, failed to avoid confrontation when this was easily achieved, failed to deal properly with the presence of children and escalated the situation when it was unnecessary to do so resulting in massive death.

There's no tinfoil involved and why should there be? Nobody needs tinfoil when so many have their heads buried in the sand... or elsewhere.

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

The branch Davidians were a group that followed ALL the teachings of the SGDA prophet Hellen G White while the majority of the church became worldly. The Davidian converts came from the well known SDA church. My father was a body guard for the prophet in the 1930's when I was born and the group owned a substantial part of Waco. They fell on hard times with their subsequent prophets and relocated to what used to be the best peach farm in the area. They thought the end was near and burnt the trees to heat their temporary uninsulated homes.

They let Vernon Howell who was extremely charismatic get control of them and do the unsual things that have been published. Koresh paid my way there for a visit to convince me to sell him $75,000 worth of reloading gear and weapons and after meeting him I refused. He had the group brainwashed and they were not allowed to leave except the group office manahger bookeeper treasurer Perry Dale Jones.

They were good people and did not deserve to die in that fashion.

All the ATF had to do was to have the local TV station invite Koresh to give a speech and they could have arrested him. The group was set up by a gun dealer who pretended to be a Davidian who convinced Koresh to loan him money to make big purchases from gun wholesalers so he could sell below dealer price at gun shows. Instead pf paying Koersh back in cash he convinced Koresh to take guns back as payment so all of the guns came from a licensed gun dealer plant of the BATF.

I know as I was there and saw it happening and attended the San Antonio Gun show with the Dealer plant.

Paul Jones

[Frohickey]

Yeah and didn't call any fire trucks or ambulances!

This is SOP for the ATF. Remember the James Allen Beck incident in Santa Clarita? There was an ATF standoff in a Southern California residence, where a man was suspected of impersonating a federal marshall, then it was suspected of having illegal weapons. Fire trucks were called out, but only to keep the other two houses on either side of it from burning.

Federal agents were serving a search warrant on Beck's house when he allegedly responded with gunfire, triggering a gun battle that ended when his home caught fire and burned to the ground. (http://www.saveourguns.com/beck001.htm)



Didn't the Germans during the Warsaw Ghetto uprising do the same thing? Setting fires, destroying buildings?

[rock jock]

Videos showing the Davidians setting the place afire? Interesting, I've followed this from day one and never seen any such creature. I have heard lots of talk about it but these supposed videos never seem to surface, just lots of "interpretation" of them.
I don't know where you have been hiding, but I remember distinctly the video being shown repeatedly on the news back in '93/'94. In the video you can see two or possibly three members of the Davidians emerge with torches from upper-floor windows out onto the roof and spread out in different directions. You can then see them set fire at several points. The video is a little blurry (not surprising given the distance at which is was filmed) but not so much that the events need interpretation. It is clear what is going on.

[rock jock]

The feds fired first.
That has never been established as a fact. In fact, it is impossible to do so without video and audio from several angles of the entire initial confrontation. He said/she said type thing. Given the repeated lies by David Koresh, this is one issue of the Waco debacle that I tend to believe the feds on.

[AmericanFreeBird]

To give answer to the original question. We were taken unaware at Waco and the scale of Ruby Ridge was too small to draw a crowd.

Should we Americans have done something, I believe the answer is "Yes". We should have realized that no matter how "wacko" someone is, in America it's their right to be that way. There is no such thing as an illegal weapon, read the figgin' constitution.

Should another seige such as Waco occur I think WE should do something. Peacefully for the first few days and if our crazy uncle doesn't cease and disist, by force of arms.
:uhoh:

[PATH]

The government would never lie! We are the tin foil hat brigade, yes?

The government would never allow thousands of soldiers to be exposed to radioactive fallout during nuclear testing.

The government would never expose soldiers to dioxin laced agent orange. It was not them.

There was no Gulf War Syndrome being suffered by soldiers. It was all in the minds of the soldiers. The government would not lie.

No, the government is always honest and above board. You can trust them completely!


Smoke,

I must state clearly that I don't think Koresh was a martyr for the RKBA cause. If the government had a warrant for his arrest it could have been done in town away from his church. Mr. Koresh and his followers were killed by the government. It was the governmnet that invaded with armed weapons. There have been no reports of Branch Davidians attacking federal agents save in what they considered self defense. Would you have us believe there was no field intelligence concerning the Branch Davidians.
What would you do if federal agants went into your church. The Davidians did not trust the governmnet and felt they should defend themselves against it.

Further, I don't have to be there to know that the deaths of over one hundred Branch Davidians was unneccessary. The church was surrounded. Where was any one going? The armored vehicles were simply the governmnet flexing its muscles. If Reno and Clinton were in the right then why were they so quick to apologize.

Yeah! If you don't trust your government or if you question its policies you must be a candidate for the tin foil hat!

I trust the governmnet.......NOT!!!!:neener:


rock jock,

I would be grateful if you could provide me with proof that the Davidians started the fire and not the governmnet. Why is the questioning of the motives and actions of government tantamount to being the wearer of a tin-foil hat?

[2nd Amendment]

If it were clear then we wouldn't still be having investigations and dissections of how the fire was started, would we? The fact is that the videos you mention show nothing but what a person could interpret how they wish. It's possible they did indeed set the fire but, considering the rest of the boondoggle and how nothing else the feds said was on the level I see no reason to believe them in this either.

[CMichael]

The Koreshes broker the law and the police had every right to go in there.

The problem was the incompetent way it was handled.

However,, the Davidians were not some sort of heros. They were the bad guys.

[rock jock]

Should we Americans have done something, I believe the answer is "Yes". We should have realized that no matter how "wacko" someone is, in America it's their right to be that way. There is no such thing as an illegal weapon, read the figgin' constitution.

Should another seige such as Waco occur I think WE should do something. Peacefully for the first few days and if our crazy uncle doesn't cease and disist, by force of arms.

Well, that is certainly one option. I would say, however, before you try to start a civil war (and I say "try" because you better realize that the vast majority of gun owners are not going to support a general rebellion premised on protecting a group of whackos making automatic weapons) you should have made every effort possible to remedy your grievances through the legal system. If, for example, you run to the rescue when WAR or some other racist group is raided for making NFA weapons in their garage, you will find yourself very much alone.

[rock jock]

I would be grateful if you could provide me with proof that the Davidians started the fire and not the governmnet. Why is the questioning of the motives and actions of government tantamount to being the wearer of a tin-foil hat?
I never claimed it was. However, ignoring established facts because they don't fit into one's tightly-woven conspiracy theory does qualify as tinfoil hat-stuff to me.

[2nd Amendment]

However, since these videos do not present any "facts" the question remains...

[killjoy]

Waco and Ruby Ridge outght to scare the Hell out of people. It shows you about the Govt. and the real roll of the Press in all of this:what: :what:

[PATH]

rock jock,

As I said in an earlier post, one should exhaust all legal means of redress. I don't think anyone is advocating the violent overthrow of the Federal government.

I question the government's handling of the whole affair. It was a disaster from start to finish. The government went out of their way it seems, from Paul Jones post, to engage Mr. Koresh and his followers. I have great concerns about that.

The bottom line is that:

1) I don't trust the government to always tell the truth.

2) I think the Waco affair was a disaster from start to finish. I further think it was the Feds flexing their muscles unneccessarily.
The result was over 100 needless deaths.(As I noted, the church was surrounded and no one was able to leave.)

3) Why wasn't Mr. Koresh simply picked up when he went into town?

The whole affair was a Mongolian Cluster from start to finish!

I am not, nor do I think any poster on this thread, asking any firearms owner to rush to the defense of anything save their Constitutional rights.

[AmericanFreeBird]

rock,

The Davidians were peaceful people. They weren't some race-baiting bunch of cop-killers. I know a criminal when I see one and I know a peaceful citizen group who are being made out as criminals by trumped up alegations or violations of unconstitutional regulations too.

There are precious few Americans, gun owners or otherwise, who would help their fellow citizens in a situation like Waco. I bet you couldn't must 200 from the entire country.

Well so what, you can read about me being killed some day trying to save some tin-foil hat wearing right wing extreamist racist criminal wacko then. I don't care if you stay home rock, I really don't. I pray your chains rest lightly on you, go home in peace and never let it be said that you were my fellow countryman.

Lets just all hope the government doesn't try another Waco, no one deserves to be burned to death in their own church.

AFB

[SkunkApe]

One aspect of the Waco situation that particularly enrages me was the participation of the U.S. military forces at Waco. Army, Air Force, and National Guard units participated in the attack.

The Posse Comitatus Actof 1878 forbids military forces being used against U.S. citizens. There is an exception is for drug inderdiction. To get around this, Reno accused the Branch Davidians of running a methamphetamine lab. As far as I know, this was a complete falsification. I've never seen any evidence of a drug lab at the church.

[wingman]

Interesting thread, could "waco" been
a test for the American people,? if so we failed.

If the same action had been taken against a black religious group or
other minority would the out come have
been the same regarding both the press
and public.?

[UnknownSailor]

From what I understand, F troop added "drug parafenalia" to the "warrant" in order to obtain the Guard's help.

As to who shot first, no-one will ever know, because the physical evidence needed to proove it has mysteriously "disappeared", while in BATF custody. Namely, the front door, and the raid footage from the cameras the F troop brought along to document the raid.

Also, I am given to understand, from all the various stuff I've read concerning this, that the BATF had budget hearings scheduled for 2 weeks after the initial raid. I am of the opinion that this is the reason for the cameras, and the 100 agents on the initial raid.

[jimpeel]

Some people tried to go to their assistance but they were outnumbered and outgunned because of the lie that brought the U.S. military and materiel to bear against this group.

Notice how gingerly they dealt with the Montana Freemen when that debacle came down? They were scared to death that the situation could come to the point where they had the populace gathering at the gates. There was no lie about clandestine Methamphetamine labs to bring the military to their rescue.

[John Galt]

At Waco, like many other cases, there never was an attempt to serve a warrant in a reasonable manner. Two cops and a "social worker" would have been sufficient & the whole thing would most likely never happened. Since the police were dishonest from the outset via their tactics, it is all their fault. I too would shoot back when being attacked by a military.

As to the subject of the post... A hundred marchers in two groups could have maybe walked in to "visit" the church. A long candelight procession might have gotten pretty good press. The press are wienies who will go to downtown Bagdad during a war, but not cover Waco. Geez!

[rock jock]

2nd Amendment:

In addition to the video, which is clearly convincing in its own right, I offer this from the Cato Institute's critical report of the story, No Confidence: An Unofficial Account of the Waco Incident :

According to the Dallas Morning News, Col. Rodney L. Rawlings was assisting the FBI
during the Waco siege. Rawlings told that newspaper that FBI “bugs” had been placed
in Mt. Carmel during the standoff and that on April 19 he was present in an FBI monitoring room where the voices of the Davidians could be clearly heard.9 4As the FBI tanks began to ram holes in Mt. Carmel, Rawlings said the bugging devices picked up the voices of David Koresh and his followers as they were preparing to start, and then starting, the fires.

The Davidian's did start the fire, they were intent on killing the children inside.

There is enough true damning evidence against the Fed. Govt at Waco that we do not need to repeat falsehoods. By doing so, we dilute the true crimes committed by the feds.


Well so what, you can read about me being killed some day trying to save some tin-foil hat wearing right wing extreamist racist criminal wacko then. I don't care if you stay home rock, I really don't. I pray your chains rest lightly on you, go home in peace and never let it be said that you were my fellow countryman.
Please, give me a break. If you feel so strongly about protesting unconstitutional gun laws with armed resistance, I should be seeing your heroic, yet failed effort, and subsequent death at the hands of a SWAT team any day now on the 6:00 news because there are raids for illegal arms everyday around the country. Short of that, your self-aggrandizing rhetoric is just cheap talk.

[PATH]

rock jock,

I am sure Col. Rawlings is a fine upstanding gentleman. I am, however, a firm believer in the motto of the great state of Missouri, "SHOW ME".

Do we have the audio tape? Who had access to the tape? How was the bug planted, by whom, and where? I don't take any ones word unless there is proof to back it up.

As for the video tapes, there are several opinions as to what they show! The evidence is not conclusive in the realm of video or audio!

The bottom line is simply this, 100 plus people are dead! The government screwed the pooch on this one. You have not presented irrefutable proof in defense of the government.
I have stated my opinion given the facts presented as well as information garnered from the press and other sources.

Bottom line....NO! I do not trust the government.

[2nd Amendment]

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS HOUSTON DIVISION ISABEL G. ANDRADE, et al.

Plaintiffs,

V. PHILLIP J. CHOJNACKI, et al. Defendants.

CIVIL ACTION NO. Judge Atlas and consolidated actions: Holub v. Reno Ferguson v. Reno Brown v. U. S. Riddle v. Reno Gyarfas v. U.S. Martin v U.S.

H-94-0923

H-94-2153 H-95-0218

H-95-0587

H-95-0602

H-95-1142

H-95-4246

DECLARATION OF RICHARD L. SHERROW

INTRODUCTION

My name is RICHARD L. SHERROW and am President of RICHARD L. SHERROW and Associates in Mesa, Arizona. I am a former Fire and Explosion Investigator with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, United States Department of Treasury, and retired as a Senior Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technician from the United States Army.

I have more than thirty years experience as an explosives and arson investigator, have been involved in over 40 major fire investigations, and have qualified as an expert witness in federal and state court in 18 states. In addition to arson, fire and explosion expertise, I have served as a Staff Instructor at both the U.S. Army Chemical Center and School and Redstone Arsenal and have been a technical writer and instructor in the use of chemical and biological weapons, including riot control agents.

In addition, I have received training from the BATF, FBI, U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S. Air Force, DuPont and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC). I have attended the Ohio Fire Academy and the National Fire Academy (NFA). I am also a graduate of the Police Academy at Jacksonville State University, Jacksonville, Alabama. I am a past member of the International Association of Bomb Technicians (IABTI).

I have made a preliminary investigation into the cause, origin, nature and growth of the fire which consumed the Mount Carmel Center near Waco, Texas, on April 19, 1993, and where members of the Branch Davidian religion perished as a result of said fire. This preliminary investigation was based upon the Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) video, still photographs extracted from the FLIR, still photographs taken from the air and from the ground during the fire, broadcast news video, videography taken by a private investigator while the government was in control of the Mount Carmel Center, signed statements and interviews of Branch Davidians who survived the fire, official reports and case notes of federal and state law enforcement agents, the reports of the United States' fire investigators (namely Paul Gray and James Quiontere) and from my own personal inspection of the fire site.

Based upon this preliminary investigation, I am able to conclude, within my professional opinion, that it is consistent with this evidence that the fire originated from a single point and spread throughout the Mount Carmel structure. It is also consistent with evidence that the original fire was started by a M728 CEV striking the southeast corner tower of Mount Carmel. These conclusions are as consistent with the evidence as the conclusions reached in the Gray and Quientere reports and they are in direct contravention to conclusions reached in the Gray and Quientere reports.

SITE INVESTIGATION

Mount Carmel Center was a multi-storied, wood-frame building of irregular construction. It was built of about half used lumber and building materials cannibalized from houses that had existed on the property previously and from new materials purchased for its construction. The building was constructed haphazardly over time without any attention to fire safety. Some of the building's interior lacked wallboard or finishing. Those areas of the building which had been finished were completed with highly flammable materials.

Contained within the building on the first floor were the living quarters. dining and kitchen areas, several storage rooms, a chapel and gymnasium. A four-story tower was located near the center of the structure and contained a reinforced-concrete room used to house a walk-in cooler for food storage. This concrete structure was built in the 1930's and had survived a previous fire some years before.

The second floor was contiguous over the first and also contained living quarters. Both corners of the building in front contained a third story. Moreover, the four-story tower had a fourth floor directly over the third.

Foundation, slabs and piers were homemade with unreinforced concrete and did not contribute significantly to the building's resistance to mechanical shock. The roof was of decked plywood construction, overlaid with asphalt composition roofing materials.

External electrical power was turned off to the structure prior to the fire but a diesel generator of unknown capacity was present within the structure and had been known to be energized intermittently between February 28 and April 19, 1993. Moreover, several storage areas and rooms were known to contain large amounts of highly flammable and combustible materials, including, but not limited to, gasoline, kerosene, lamp oil, Coleman lantern fuel, paint, petroleum distillates, tar and roofing materials, acetylene and oxygen containers, gunpowder, metal shavings, and a large quantity of small arms ammunition.

Internal heating and cooking fires were provided by improvised wood-burning stoves and propane fueled gas ranges, respectively. Due to the lack of external electrical power, internal lighting was accomplished with Coleman-type gas pressurized lanterns and glass oil-burning wick lamps.

It is known that a large, commercial-type gas range was located in the kitchen/dining area adjacent to the four-story tower. This range was fed by a large, 100 pound propane tank located externally to the dining room. The propane was conducted through the wall at that location by a conduit pipe. The tank appeared to be nearly full of propane as evidenced by a spectacular boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion (BLEVE) during the fire.

Mount Carmel Center was occupied as a multi-family residential building with shared common areas, including a commercial-sized kitchen, and compartmented into many smaller rooms used for personal quarters.

INSERTION OF CHEMICAL AGENTS

On April 19. 1993, at approximately 6:00 a.m., agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation began executing a plan to introduce a riot control agent, ortho- chlorobenzalmalononitrile (CS).

CS is a micro-pulverized particulate riot control agent designed for crowd dispersal in open areas. Although no open or closed cup flash point has been determined for CS, it is a combustible solid. Published information on CS by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) states that the ceiling exposure limit for CS is 0.05 parts per million (ppm) or approximately 0.2 milligrams per cubic meter (mg/m^3). The ceiling exposure limit is not to be exceeded at any time. NIOSH information lists CS as having an immediate danger to life and health (IDLH) exposure limit of 2 mg/m^3. Information contained in the U.S. Justice Department report on Waco states that 10 mg/m^3 is the concentration of CS which will deter trained troops. Moreover, powdered CS may be a fire hazard in concentrated quantities and can produce a flammable dust.

During the next six hours, the FBI utilized M728 Combat Engineer Vehicles (CEV) to breach the outer walls of the building and to inject CS. A CEV is a large armored vehicle, weighing in excess of 50 tons, is equipped with a 165mm demolition gun and is modification of the M60A1 Main Battle Tank, The CS was injected by use of a Mark V delivery device. The MK-5 delivery device consisted of several bottles of pressurized carbon dioxide which was used to entrain the particulate CS in a gaseous stream, This stream was injected into the structure through a nozzle located on the end of a boom connected to the CEV.

In addition to the CS injection utilizing the Mark-5 delivery systems on the CEVs, FBI agents in Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicles (BIFV) fired SGA-400 Ferret barricade penetrating cartridges into windows and areas not reachable by the CEVs. A Ferret is a 40 mm projectile containing particulate CS and a liquid suspension agent, methylene chloride. The Ferret is a non-pyrotechnic munition specifically designed for barricade situations. At least 400, and possibly more, of these Ferret rounds were fired in and at Branch Davidians during the breaching and CS insertion operation.

Besides the SGA-400 Ferret cartridges, information from documents obtained from the FBI through the United States Department of justice indicates that military pyrotechnic munitions may have been fired into Mount Carmel. Documents disclosed indicate that agents could not penetrate either the underground shelter roof or the top of the rear four- story tower with Ferrets. Therefore, they fired at least one "military" round and referred to this munition as a "bubblehead." As a retired U.S. Army senior explosive ordnance disposal technician, I am unaware of the nomenclature and function of a "bubblehead" nor can I find any reference to such a munition in official military publications. However, I am familiar with a device known as a "bunker buster," which is a munition about the size of a softball and designed to penetrate fortifications. I recall that this munition was of foreign manufacture and filled with plasticized high explosive (HEP). It may have had other fillers, including chemical riot control agents. The exact identity of a "bubblehead" would have to be determined before any possible contribution to the fire could be established.

In the event that members of the Branch Davidians contemplated or began to execute a mass suicide, it was the plan of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) "to disrupt any suicide attempt with flash-bangs." "Flash-bang" generically refers to pyrotechnic stun munitions designed to temporarily incapacitate or disorient personnel by producing a loud report and blinding flash. These munitions contain an explosive/incendiary pyrotechnic composition. A number of these munitions manufactured by the Nico Corporation were known to be fired during the 51 day standoff and were in the possession of the FBI HRT on April 19, 1993. Use of stun munitions in barricade situations is extremely hazardous due to the potential of causing an accidental fire.

In addition to the CS and methylene chloride introduced by the above methods, the Gray report refers to the induction of choloracetophenone (CN), another riot control agent. CN comes in both liquid and powder forms: CN-B is a mixture of CN and benzene and CN-C is a mixture of CN and chloroform in a liquid state. CN is highly flammable in its liquid state; in its powdered state, CN has a flashpoint of 59' C.

It is known that many of the Branch Davidians were in possession of protective masks. Therefore, the effective use of CS or CN would require the introduction of quantities of these agents far in excess of that required to deter trained troops (10 mg/m^3 for CS) and well past the levels required to pose an immediate danger to life and health (2 mg/m^3 for CS). Calculations by engineers for an independent casualty laboratory, Failure Analysis, Inc., have concluded that the average concentration of CS inside of Mount Carmel was 10 to 90 times that necessary to deter trained troops (100 to 900 mg/m^3). In my professional opinion and based upon my experience with the use of these riot control agents, the concentration of CS and/or CN introduced was designed to overcome the protective masks by rapidly debilitating their filters and posed an immediate threat to the life, health and safety of those inside Mount Carmel, especially the unprotected children.

BREACHING OPERATIONS

During the six hours of the escalated plan to introduce CS (and possibly CN) into the Mount Carmel Center, CEVs made numerous breaches in the exterior walls of the structure. The purpose of this breaching was ostensively to provide openings for members of the Branch Davidians to "escape" the building. However, these operations significantly damaged the structure, causing numerous internal load-bearing failures and resulted in restricted egress from the structure.

As an example, the area immediately over the trap door leading to the buried school bus and external underground storm shelter was obstructed by debris. Further, both staircases leading to the upper floors were disrupted or destroyed by the CEV breaching operations. At one point, a significant portion of the building can be seen to be off its foundation because of the repeated collisions of the CEVs with the structure. These breaching operations probably resulted in sprung doors, destruction of flooring and creation of attendant falling and entrapment hazards and probably prevented normal communication between adjacent areas of the structure.

Despite the claim that the purpose of the breaching operation was to secure exits for the Branch Davidians, in reality the CEVs began to systematically dismantle the building as evidenced by the destruction of the gymnasium immediately prior to the fire.

During the breaching operation, one of the CD/s (CEV-1) was ordered to penetrate the structure from one side to the other. CEV-1, with its bulldozer blade pushing debris in front of it, penetrated to the base of the four-story tower, making contact with the concrete storage structure at the tower's base. This structure was already in a weakened condition from a previous fire as noted above. The contact, made by such a large and powerful vehicle, probably caused a structural failure and resulted in an internal avalanche of the room contents and partial failure of the concrete ceiling. This entrapped numerous people, mostly women and children, who had taken refuge therein.

CAUSE AND ORIGIN

Possible Origin

At about 12:06 p.m., CEV-1 was dismantling the southeast corner tower of the exterior wall at the ground level. At 12:06:24, CEV-1 departed the southeast corner, possibly clipping the edge of the structure as it turns away. At approximately 12:07:41, a small heat signature is observed on the FLIR in the second floor window of the southeast corner tower, less than two minutes (and possibly as little as one minute, seventeen seconds) after the CEV had made violent contact with that area of the building. This heat signature is described by the Quientere report as a 100 kilowatt fire, consistent with a "wastebasket" size fire and was estimated to be one-half meter in diameter (about a foot and a half). This is consistent with a small incipient smoldering fire that has erupted to produce visible flame.

Survivors of the conflagration reported that a lit Coleman lantern was located in that immediate vicinity. Coleman-type lantern becomes extremely hot in operation, reaching as much as 700 degrees Fahrenheit. This temperature is sufficient to cause ignition of combustible material even in absence of an external flame source. Moreover, if the flame of the lantern had been extinguished, the fuel would continue to be expelled from the manifold under pressure from the tank. Personal conversations with the manufacturer indicates that combustible materials should not be placed with one foot from the lateral sides of an operating lantern and no closer than four (4) feet from the top side due to heat production and risk of fire.

If a lit Coleman-type lantern, which had been operating for some time, had been knocked over by CEV contact with the building or shaking of the building by vibration from the operation of the CEVs outside, the heat from the lantern chassis, the mantle flame, and the continued production of atomized fuel could cause a fire consistent with that observed on the FLIR at 12:07:41.

FLIR Analysis

On April 19, 1993, the day of the fire, the government was operating a United States Customs Cessna Citation jet aeroplane equipped with a Forward-Looking Infrared (FLIR) video camera. A FLIR camera detects infrared (heat) radiation, both that which is reflected, such as sunlight, and that which is emitted from objects which are "hotter" than their background. These differences are referred to as "heat signatures." A FLIR camera cannot distinguish between reflection and emission or between visible flame and hot smoke and gas. Further, there are no industry accepted standards for use of this technology in fire cause and origin determination.

The following is the sequence of the fire as it appears on the FLIR:

12:06:24 CEV-1 leaves structure, possibly clipping southeast corner tower while turning away.

12:07:41 A small heat signature is observed in the southeast corner tower window, second floor, immediately over where CEV-1 had been operating a minute or so before.

12:08:49 A large heat signature is observed at the rear of the dining area and at the base of the tower.

12:08:56 As the FLIR aircraft circles the structure, sight is lost of the southeast tower but an explosion of hot gas is observed emanating from the southeast side. This appears to be consistent with a flashover and/or backdraft of the room of original fire origin. However, a flashover may have occurred earlier while outside the visual range of the camera.

12:09:12 A large heat signature appears in the front windows of the southeast tower. A long heat signature is observed streaming in the wind and spreading to the adjoining roof of the front of the structure.

12:09:31 A very large heat signature, consistent with fire and hot smoke, is seen breaking out around the eaves of the southeast tower.

12:09:44 A very large heat signature, consistent with hot smoke, gas or flame, is seen at the rear of the structure in the vicinity of the dining room area.

12:09:50 A small heat signature is observed in the windows of the chapel on the southeast side of the structure.

12:10:00 A small heat signature is observed in the windows along the back of the front corridor of the structure and is consistent with hot gas, smoke and possibly flame travelling down the corridor.

12:10:22 A growing heat signature is observed in the wreckage of the gym and is consistent with fire growth from the chapel.

12:11:02 A very large heat signature emanates from the southeast corner, dining area and gymnasium. Hot fire brands are seen blowing off of corner tower roof and landing in vicinity of the dining area.

[2nd Amendment]

12:11:05 Firebrands are seen blowing off of the southeast corner tower roof and are sucked into hole in chapel area wall

PRELIMINARY CONCLUSION OF CAUSE OF FIRE

Wind

1. At the time of ignition, there were ambient winds in excess of 25 knots gusting to 40 knots (28.7 to 46 mph). These extremelyhigh winds are quite significant with respect to the firegrowth and spread. The angle of the wind to the structure,from southeast to northwest, is in direct line with the fire growth and propagation as would be expected.

2. There were two large holes made in the front of the structure by the CEVs; one through the front of the double doors and one directly in the center of the building. Both of these breaching operations caused considerable structural damage to the flooring of the second story, opening that story to the one below. Moreover, high winds were able to enter through these breaches and create a venturi, or wind-tunnel effect, in the transverse corridors in the front of the building. This venturi effect created a negative pressure zone in the interior and pulled air from the southeast corner of the building toward the west and north sides. The velocity of the airstream was considerable according to eyewitness survivors. Further, an additional venturi is created by the demolition of the gymnasium and breaching of the exterior wall directly behind the chapel on the southeast side of the structure.

3. Despite the conclusions articulated in the reports authored by Gray and Quientere stating that the wind had nothing to do with the fire growth and propagation, another arson investigator retained by the United States to investigate the Mount Carmel blaze testified at the criminal trial that:

...what I believe to be substandard construction and the fact that some of its integrity had been compromised by the tanks, the building was well ventilated. Once the fire started, there was no reason the fire... could not just burn unheeded.

and

I might also add that the wind was a very real contributory factor to the... spread of the fire and to its intensity.

and

... what that would do, it would introduce a whole volume of air that may not have been available to the fire, and as the fire burns it needs that air to sustain itself. Not only would the construction or the fire load, whatever furniture may be inside the building, add to it, the holes were going to create a cross ventilation, which are also going to spread the fire in the direction of the wind.

Thus, at least one of the experts retained by the government supports the proposition of this preliminary report that theambient wind and breaching operations of the CEVs werecontributory to the rapid spread and growth of the fire.

Fire

The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Publication 921, Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations, 1995 edition, gives standards regarding opinions expressed by fire investigators. When forming opinions concerning the cause and origin of a fire, an investigator should set standards for the degree of confidence in those opinions. There are four levels of confidence that can be regularly applied to such opinions:

(a) Conclusive. At this level of confidence, the hypotheses has been tested and withstood all appropriate challenges while all reasonable alternatives to the hypotheses have been considered and eliminated due to their failure to withstand a valid challenge, leaving only that hypothesis under consideration as true.

(b) Probable. This level of confidence corresponds to being more likely true than not. At this level of confidence, the chance of the hypothesis being true is more than 50 percent.

(c) Possible. At this level of confidence, the hypothesis can be demonstrated to be feasible but cannot be declared probable.

(d) Suspected. This level of confidence corresponds to a perception that the hypothesis may be true, but there are insufficient data to draw a conclusion to the exclusion of any other reasonable conclusion.

If the confidence level of the opinion is only "possible" or "suspected," the cause should be listed as unknown, undetermined, or under investigation. However, the following scenario and the opinion expressed herein is consistent with the data available to me at this time. The degree of confidence which I set for this opinion is possible.

After reviewing the evidence, I have reached a preliminary conclusion on the cause, origin, nature and growth of the fire. This opinion is only preliminary as much additional evidence is required before any conclusion can be reached which has a confidence level greater than possible.

1. The fire originated in the southeast corner tower from the tipping of a lit Coleman-type lantern which fell onto combustible materials, most likely bedding materials, as the room was utilized as sleeping quarters, and was most likely caused by violent contact or mechanical shock associated with the CEV removing the corner of the southeast tower directly under the point of origin. The time of origin could have been as late as 12:06:24 p.m., but could have been earlier.

2. The fire smoldered, producing toxic and combustible gases in the room. As these gases collected, the combustible materials ignited, producing visible heat and flame. This ignition Is first detected by the FLIR at 12:07:41 but may have been burning for some time prior to this.

3. A flashover of the second floor room of southeast corner tower occurs, This appears on the FLIR at 12:08:56 but appears to be already in progress. The flashover could not have been observed earlier because the FLIR operator had the southeast corner tower out of the field of view.

4. At the time of ignition, there were ambient winds in excess of 25 knots gusting to 40 knots (28.7 to 46 mph). These extremely high winds are quite significant with respect to the fire growth and spread. The angle of the wind to the structure, from southeast to northwest, is in direct line with the fire growth and propagation as would be expected.

5. There were two large holes made in the front of the structure by the CEVs; one through the front of the double doors and one directly in the center of the building. Both of these breaching operations caused considerable structural damage to the flooring of the second story, opening that story to the one below. Moreover, high winds were able to enter through these breaches and create a venturi, or wind-tunnel effect, in the transverse corridors in the front of the building. This venturi effect created a negative pressure zone in the interior and pulled air from the southeast corner of the building toward the west and north sides. The velocity of the airstream was considerable according to eyewitness survivors. Further, an additional venturi is created by the demolition of the gymnasium and breaching of the exterior wall directly behind the chapel on the southeast side of the structure.

6. Approximately ten minutes earlier, CEV-1 attempted to make a through and through penetration from the front of the structure to the rear. During this penetration, CEV-1 struck the reinforced concrete structure at the base of the center four-story tower wherein most of the women and children had taken refuge. This deep penetration severely disrupted the building structure and opened the ceiling of the dining area to the second story hallway.

7. As the fire flashes over in the southeast corner tower, the fire is pulled into the second story transverse hallway by the venturi created by the ambient winds. Hot, burning and combustible material is sucked by the wind and negative pressure into the hallway and transported rapidly throughout. Once these firebrands encounter the obstructions in the middle of the building from the CEV-1 penetration, they are ducted into the dining area by the breach in the floor.

8. At 12:08:49, approximately a little over one minute, a heat signature is observed at the rear of the dining area which appears to be fire. Most of the heat signature appears to be outside of the building at this point. The signature is unique in that comparisons with visible light video show it producing a white vapor which is consistent with burning propane. Moreover, much combustible material, petroleum distillates, paints, and lantern fuel were stored in the rear of the dining area according to witnesses.

9. In addition to the venturi ducting down the transverse front corridor, the fire grows because of the flashover from the southeast corner tower fire and spreads rapidly through the attic of the adjoining chapel. A surviving witness has stated that he heard a cry of fire coming from the second floor and went up into the chapel attic to investigate, crossing a causeway built over the rafters. The chapel attic and causeway were contiguous with the second floor front corridor and separated only by a blanket. When the witness arrived at the junction of the transverse corridor hallway and the chapel attic, he observed a "wall of fire" traveling down the corridor. The witness stated that:

I'm a drummer in a rock band. The fire was blowing down the hall like a blowtorch and was the loudest sound I've ever heard. There was no way I could get into that hall and couldn't stay there because of the intense heat.

The witness further advised that the time between when he heard the cry of fire and his arrival at the door to the corridor was approximately one minute, strongly indicating rapid fire propagation.

10. The fire growth in the chapel was accelerated by the presence of petroleum distillates and lantern fuels. Surviving witnesses stated that approximately one dozen cans of Coleman lantern fuel were moved from the front door area to the chapel to prevent their destruction by CEV penetration.

11. Once the chapel was fully involved, the fire then spread to the gymnasium area. The northwest side of the gymnasium had been completely destroyed by action of CEV-2. This reduced the surface to mass ratio of the fuel (building materials) such that the fire was able to secure a rapid purchase and accelerate its growth. In addition, the action of CEV-2 in this area may have crushed numerous fuel and propane containers, aiding in the rapid propagation and growth of the fire. Such fuel appears to show on the FLIR as dark spots and it is known from surviving Davidians that fuel and propane containers were there.

12. Abetted by high winds, the fire rapidly spreads, completely destroying the rest of the structure.

ESCAPE OF THE OCCUPANTS

The conclusions of the Government's experts assert that the occupants of the building could have escaped the fire had they wanted to. In fact, the Gray report states that occupants had up to five (5) minutes from the ignition of the fire to exit the building. This is not consistent with the fire spread or known reactions of fire-related human behavior.

As noted above, the breaching operations of the CEVs caused considerable disruption and mechanical failure to large portions of the structure; in fact, the entire southeast side of the building was knocked off its foundation by action of the CEVs. This disruption probably created multiple hazards including entrapment, crushing, and restrictions of egress and community between floors. Early breaching operations are known to have occluded access to the trap door leading to an underground shelter. Eyewitness testimony and statements establish that CEV operations destroyed or significantly damaged the two stairways leading from the upper floors, trapping those occupants to the upper levels of the structure. Moreover, doors were known to be sprung and were unable to be opened because of structural distortion.

The noise generated by the high winds blowing through the building and that from the unmuffled CEV engines also would inhibit the spread of an alarm. In fact, eyewitness interviews establish that the alarm of fire, first broadcast from the site of origin, was not transmitted to the other occupants because of noise interference and attenuation or acoustic disruption due to structural damage.

Many of the fire victims, mostly the women and children, died inside or in close proximity to the concrete structure at the base of the four story tower. This is the same structure which had been in the path of CEV-1 during its deep penetration. The actions of CEV-1 in making this penetration had bulldozed large amounts of material, if not against, then in front of the door, limiting egress. Witnesses believe that many of the women took their children into the walk-in cooler to protect them from the effects of the CS. The cooler had an air-tight door and was not electrically energized.

The injection of CS had occurred numerous times during the day. Each injection filled at least part of the building with a dense cloud of particulate matter, limiting breathing and visibility. When flashover occurred in the southeast corner tower, the combustion products were rapidly distributed throughout the building. This initial warning was ignored by some occupants because they mistook the fire products as another CS injection, delaying their apprehension of danger and severely limiting their time for escape.

As with all fires, the combustible products, including carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, hydrogen cyanide (all of which were found in the Branch Davidian victims who died by smoke inhalation), deprive the brain of oxygen and cause confusion, limiting a fire victim's ability to apprehend danger and to execute a plan of escape. Moreover, the toxic combustion products produced by the injection of methylene chloride into the structure, phosgene (PG) and chlorine (Cl) gas, could have rendered large numbers of people unconscious and prevented their escape from the fire. According to the Material Safety Data sheet and hazardous chemical data published for methylene chloride, the vapors can readily accumulate and can cause unconsciousness and death in confined and poorly ventilated spaces, it is an eye, skin and respiratory tract irritant. Toxic, methylene chloride is a narcotic in high concentrations and is metabolized by the body to form carbon monoxide. Moreover, methylene chloride is flammable in its vapor state, and may have contributed to the spread and rapid growth of the fire.

Taken in a totality, the government experts' claim that the occupants of Mount Carmel Center could have escaped and that they had at least five minutes to do so is not supported by the evidence. In fact, one expert testified at the criminal trial that:

Q. All right. But in any event -- but prior to it being -- and all of it's involved, and so people that may have been in there at the time of the fire's beginning were in serious trouble within two minutes of the start of that fire, weren't they, from the smoke and whatever else was going on?

A. Probably two minutes and thereafter, yes.

Some consideration must also be given to the psychodynamics of the group considering their subjugation to psychological pressure tactics, sleep deprivation and general apprehension and fear of the government agents outside contributing to their delay to exit the building. The behavioral response of an individual's awareness of the initial fire incident cue (odor or visible smoke) often is a determinant outcome of the fire incident. The manner in which an individual is alerted to the occurrence of a fire may predispose the perception of the threat involved.

Processes of social inhibition, diffusion of responsibility, and mimicking appear to be primarily responsible for the inhibition of adaptive and assistance behavior responses (rescue of self and others) by participants in emergency situations. The inhibition of behavioral responses in the early stages of a fire incident (when the fire incident cues are relatively ambiguous) may predispose participants to a nonadaptive type of behavior (failure to rescue self or others) since the available evacuation time has been expanded.

Thus, the psychological condition of the occupants after 51 days of siege, the excessive introduction of CS or CN and any attendant toxic effects, general and pervasive fear of external conditions and induced group social dynamics most likely led to a delayed perception of danger with tragic consequences.

ADDITIONAL DISCOVERY INFORMATION

Before an expert opinion can be rendered in this case, much additional discovery information is required. Much could be learned from examination of the forensic evidence in the hands of the investigators, including in situ photographs, fire pattern analyses, aerial video other than the FLIR (there must be some), the original FLIR, identification of all munitions and ordnance used, audio and video surveillance recordings prior to and at the time of the fire, tactical and voice traffic logs and recordings, sketches, drawings, line-sight diagrams, etc.

Moreover, before an opinion can be rendered about the efficacy of using FLIR technology to determine the cause, origin and growth of the Mount Carmel fire, the exact manufacturer and nomenclature of the FLIR used and the altitude of the orbiting aircraft would have to be known to determine the FLIR's capabilities and resolution.

At this point in time, since the fire scene has been completely destroyed by the government, it is impossible to form an opinion on the cause and origin of the fire with any degree ofcertainty greater than possible without unrestricted access to the forensic information available to and relied upon by the government's fire investigators. Until such time as this information is available, no opinion can be expressed other than a tentative, preliminary opinion as contained in this declaration.

SUMMARY AND CONCLUSION

The accepted rule in fire investigation is to look for arson as the cause only after all other sources of ignition have been eliminated. It appears from an examination of the Gray andQuientere reports that they proceeded in reverse fashion: determined that the fire was arson and set out to prove it. Moreover, much valuable evidence was destroyed at the direction of agents of the United States by the subsequent and needless destruction of the fire scene by bulldozers.

There are many occasions where suspicious, multiple origin fires were initially thought to be arson but later were confirmed to be accidental. For example, a large fire in Hialeah, Florida had multiple points of independent origin and was ruled arson. Subsequent investigation showed that the initial investigators where wrong in their conclusions and the fire was determined to be accidental electrical in origin.

It also appears that the initial investigation at Mount Carmel did not attempt to rule out all possible causes of accidental origin as is required in any fire cause and origin determination. In 1986, a large loss-of-life fire occurred at the DuPont Plaza fire in San Juan, Puerto Rico, in which myself and the United States' expert, Dr. Quientere were involved. Despite the highly suspicious origin of the fire, an exhaustive search was made for possible accidental origins prior to focusing on arson as the cause. I do not believe this was done in this case.

Based upon the information and evidence available to me, that published by the United States Departments of Justice and Treasury, and that submitted in the United States' Motion for Summary Judgment in the above-captioned case, it is my expert opinion as a fire and explosion investigator that no opinion could be reached by the government's investigators which has a confidence level greater than possible as explained above.

The preliminary opinion expressed in this declaration is just as consistent with the evidence and as plausible a scenario as that postulated by the reports authored by experts for the United States.

[rock jock]

This proves nothing. Technical "experts" abound in trial law. When you can get a concensus by a panel of experts not paid by a plantiff, then I'll start to listen.

BTW, read the CI report. Col. Rawlings, in making this statement, is refuting FBI testimony that the feds did not know the Davidians were going to start the fire, with the implication that since they did, they could have gotten fire trucks in early and stopped the carnage. The feds knew that David Koresh was planning to torch the building.

have not presented irrefutable proof in defense of the government.
Where have I said that I am defending the govt.? Answer: no where. I am, however, refuting an argument that I believe has been clearly settled and which detracts from the real crimes of the govt. in this case. Besides, the burden of proof for the courtroom is "reasonable doubt", not irrefutable proof.

[PATH]

rock jock,

I have not called you a defender of the government. My reference is simply to an argument. I apologize for any misunderstanding on this point.

The court makes decisions based on reasonable doubt and/or certainty. Evidence must prove innocence or guilt. If one can refute evidence it has a limited ability as a defence. My position is simply this...the government is responsible for the death of the Branch Davidians. I still have reason to believe it was the feds and not the davidians who started the fire. On this point we do not agree.

What we can agree on is that the government was out of line in its actions. The end result is that over 100 people are dead as a result of federal action!

[Beer for my Horses]

I'm not an expert on WACO, but I recall that the Davidians lost their civil lawsuit, partly because all the reprinted expert testimony above was rejected by the court. The Feds certainly were the cause of the tragedy at WACO. As mentioned previously, Koresh could have been arrested without incident outside of the compound on one of his visits to town. Instead, the Feds decided to turn it into a Remember the Alamo scenario. The Feds screwed up in multiple ways but I don't believe they intentionally ignited the building or intentionally shot Davidians trying to escape the burning building. Their biggest sin, in my eyes, was their decision for the initial breach by the ATF entry team. This started the shooting (but no matter what people say noone knows who shot first). And it doesn't matter anyway who shot first; SOP for a breaching entry team is to shoot first at any threat to the officer/team. As was shown on video, there were plenty of threats that repelled the breaching ATF agents. Bad idea to breach, poor plan, poor execution.

As for the second/mechanized breach by the armored vehicle, it would have been a good plan if it was limited to introducing gas into the building, and not bulldozing part of the building in the process. The operator could have got the gas in without bringing part of the house down. Anyway, I remain persuaded that Koresh and his followers had set up accelerants for the fire to spread so rapidly. But I could be wrong. . . noone else in this debate seems willing to admit as much.

[rock jock]

What we can agree on is that the government was out of line in its actions. The end result is that over 100 people are dead as a result of federal action!
Yup, that is very true. However, I do fault David Koresh for the standoff. He had plenty of opportunities to surrender or at least let his followers leave. Had he done so, the witnesses would have survived and the evidence of the initial raid would be scrutinzed. I think the case against the ATF would have been pretty strong.

[DeltaElite]

It seems that the megalomaniacs on both sides caused all the problems.
The Feds initiated it and Koresh became a willing participant.
Shame on all of them.

[2dogs]

Refering to a "vault" within the Koresh buildings in which some of the Davidians sought shelter from the government's attack:

"CS concentrations in the vault, from this single injection alone, would have reached 1,350 mg. per cubic meter. This concentration is staggering, given the extreme power of CS to attack human membranes: half a milligram per cubic meter is considered sufficient to break civilians, and ten milligrams per cubic meter is sufficiently agonizing to break trained troops. At a concentration of 1,350, the estimated LD- the dose at which the weaker half of a human population would have died as a result of that exposure- would have been reached in only 38 minutes. Nine persons in the vault were later found dead of asphyxia, without signs of smoke inhalation- meaning that they died of asphyxia before the fire. Among these were a pair of one-year-old girls- Mayanah Schneider and Startle Summers- and six-year-old Star Koresh."

A member of the HRT (Hostage Rescue Team) named Peter Smerick warned "that they should not send in the tanks, because if they did so, children would die and the FBI would be blamed even if they were not responsible."

"That this approach might result in the fulfillment of Smerick's prediction that "the children would die," does not seem to have been considered as any great barrier to the implementation of the plan. As Smerick told Justice Department investigators after the tragic fire, the FBI's leadership felt that "these people were criminals, and you must punish criminals.""


Source: "This Is Not an Assault", David T Hardy.

Read this book and David Kopel's "No More Wacos". Watch the documentaries on Waco.

Yes there is a dispute as to who fired the first shots at Waco (a substantial amount of the evidence seems to show it was the government and the fact that the crucial front door mysteriously disappeared does nothing to bolster the government's contention that it was the Davidians who fired first), and who started the fires (possibly the Davidians, and just as possibly the government with the incendiary grenades they lied about using).

However, this was not a comedy of errors, or a mistake. This was intentional homicide, a government run amuck, and no one lifted a finger in defense of the Davidian "cultist's" (say now, can 1 year old and 6 year old children be cultists?) either during or in the years since. Who has been prosecuted for these deaths? Fired? Demoted? No instead we, the American people, get Janet Reno running for Governor and now possibly Senator, rather than swinging from a gallows.

Where are the masses marching peacefully on DC demanding a full accounting and JUSTICE for the dead?

God help the USA.






:fire: :banghead:

[Bainx]

There will never be another Waco type incident.
Trust me on this one.

[Blain]

What would have been ideal was if hundreds of us citizens had armed up with shotguns, battle rifles, RPGs, etc and head over there to destroy the out of control tyranny assaulting our fellow Americans and their children. At least that's what the founding fathers would have done!

[pax]

There will never be another Waco type incident.
Trust me on this one.
Uh, right.

Who are you and how do you know? Got psi powers or what?

pax

I have travelled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year. -- The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957