[moooose102]

i am rather "technology challenged" to say the least. i want a gps for hunting and a small amout of fishing, NOT for street maps. what do i need to know/ask before i buy one? and which ones are the most user freindly? there seems to be quite a difference in price, are the bells and whistles worth the extra, or do they just make it more complicated to use?

[ErikS]

First thing you need to ask yourself is if you need a map in it. A map can be a good thing if you want to know where you are aswell, but it does come with a higher price. If you do go with the map, you probably want a color map, so you can tell the difference between a creek and a path.

But for hunting and fishing, you basically just need a simple one, so you can mark where your car is, and where your hunting stand/fishing spot is. You should bring a map in any case, any electronic can break.

So I'd recommend you check if it's waterproof, that it can take a hit, and ask them to show you how you add waypoint to it. You want to be able to add new waypoints, and set them as your target, without too much problems. You want to be able to do it from home with the help of a map, as well as when you're out and about.

Myself, I'm thinking of getting a Garmin Foretrex 101 for my outdoor needs. It's about the simplest device you can get, but if you dont need the map, or a lot of other bells and whistles, I think that will be enough for my need. YMMV.

[Supertac45]

Always remember that anything electronic can break. A topo map and compass can do wonders.

[rcmodel]

Make sure whatever you get says it is WAAS-enabled.

That means it might be able to get reception under heavy tree cover, or in the middle of a blizzard.

I have an older Garmin eTrex Legend, and it is reception challenged in deep woods or heavy overcast/storms.

Here is a basic model without mapping, and excellent battery life.

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=144&pID=8705#

IMO: Color screens eat batteries for breakfast.
And I have no problem at all understanding my B&W eTrex maps.

Here is a basic mapping version:
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&pID=224#

rcmodel

[dakotasin]

i run a waas enabled garmin e-trex legend and really like it. easy to use, and have only had reception difficulties once when i was in a canyon under a heavy tree canopy. a couple steps forward and i was receiving again...

what to ask for... how many waypoints and routes does it hold? is it waterproof? what is the battery run time? will it get me back to the truck in a heavy snow when i am 3000 vertical feet above camp, and 6 horizontal miles away? does it have a software option so i can buy and download topographic maps if i later want to expand?

[critter]

'Nother vote for the Garmin e-trex legend.

[Griz44]

I have an older Magellan Color. It is loaded with maps as well, it is waterproof and floats if you drop in the water. Outdoors proof was the most important to me. I recorded tracks which is very important for refinding the hidden paths on a moonless morning at 4AM on a mile long trek to a hidden deer stand with little more than a red led headlight. It is an excellent tool to have, just do not use it as the sole tool for finding your way out. As mentioned earlier, a compass is a necessity!

[jfdavis58]

I have several Garmin GPSr: eTrex, eTrex Legend, eTrex Vista hcx, GPSMap76, GPSMap76csx & Nuvi350. I use them both on the road and off. I also have the corresponding Mapsource maps: Topo and City Navigator. And the National Geographic Topographic maps for the national parks and my home state (NM) and surrounding states (AZ, UT, CO, OK, TX). I keep a current set of paper maps from Benchmark map in the car.

For Off road/back country you must have a compass and paper map. The National Geographic maps are detailed to 1:24000 ad they print beautifully on semigloss photo paper from a good inkjet photo printer. At about $100.00US they are a real bargain. Garmin/Mapsource Topo is 1:100000. It has a respectable level of detail and can be easily 'synchronized' with a paper map.

As for a GPSr recommendation, handheld and pocketable, hands down the Etrex Vista hcx-color screen, SD card expandable (I've got a 2gb card and the entire US City NAvigator loaded, a second 2GB micro-SD holds all of Mapsource Topo will lots of space to spare).

There is a bunch of information about waypoints, breadcrumb tracking and general GPSr use across the web--you could just visit Garmin and download the unit manuals if you like. Perhaps the best feature in the newest units is the ability to add custom points of interest to the maps. Waypoint and routing are generally good on most units, but both are finite in capacity. Custom POIs are limited by SD card capacity-the software to load POIs is free.

POI can be assigned a specific symbol-there is an editor. They can be organized for easy maintenance, have space for extensive coding and commentary and can (on units with a voice) link to sound files and pictures-this is the Tourguide function.

Since the inclusion of Surf-nx chips GPSr now have much better 'under cover' capability. Many Surf chip capable units will actually track to a respectable accuracy inside buildings. WAAS is often given credit for this ability-that's myth. WAAS is a second layer of satellites giving extra location accuracy. It was around shortly after Clinton disabled selective reception; it was greatly improved earlier this summer by retasking and replacing certain GeoSync satellites. WAAS is a battery killer, like a compass or altimeter; great features for specific applications, but generally users turn them off unless they need them or have extra batteries.

The current trend in GPSr is not more features, but rather end use specialization. Car units talk and auto route and as you go up the price scale they restore routing (for planning) and itinerary planner--find a shortest distance with multiple stops. They also play MP3 and display photos. Some offer a handsfree bluetooth phone transceiver-like the earbud some folks wear. They also can be linked to traffic services provided by many state highway departments on a specific radio frequency.

Hand units are drifting to larger screen to unit size ratio and touch screen capability. How these will/would perform with gloves in cold weather is yet to be determined. Most of these are preloaded with maps for a specific region-take care to get the one with the maps you need.

All mid-range and higher Garmin units come preloaded/preprogrammed with things like a calendar, calculator and some games. Newer unit are directly USB linkable for software and firmware updates, map loading, routing on the PC and other purposes--they do a nifty job of syncing the PC clock. (Older units used the serial port, no largely defunct on PCs-this required an adapter.) Updating the entire US City navigator takes about four hours through a highspeed internet connection. Downloading a days tracks, routes and waypoints is typically less than a minute.

If you are land navigation capable with a map and compass the concept of using a GPSr in an ON and OFF fashion-like for sighting on a distant object then simply keeping it in sight while walking toward it-will come to mind rather quickly as the way to save batteries.

Any more questions?

[moooose102]

jfdavis58, my head is spinning! wow, so like are you some kind of electronics engeneer?! what the heck is a surf-nx chip? and waas? and what maintenence has to be done? like i said, i am rather techno challenged. when my computer messes up so bad i cant work it, i get another one. if the norton 360 cant fix it, it goes to the junk. if gps's are like that, i will just have to keep my 4h county maps and compases. iam sure it sounds bad, but i dont even know what an mp3 player is. or bluetooth , or an earbud. i know sd cards, my camera has one. it is just another memory chip. you keep talking about battery life, how long does one run (continuously) on a set of batteries, and are they normal batteries, or some high tech gizmos? i guess i should go to garmin and / or magellen and check them out. it just so frustrating not really knowing what i am looking at.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

are the bells and whistles worth the extra, or do they just make it more complicated to use?

Generally speaking, they just make it more complicated to use. You want the most user-friendly one. I don't know which one that is, but ask some salesmen in stores or keep asking here on the net. All you need is a basic locater telling you how to get back to camp, right? Or are you wanting one that shows the fishing spots and lake depths at different spots?

[EatBugs]

I've used alot of GPS units for work and even own one for play and hunting. I only use Garmin. My Garmin 12xl bought used in 2000(I think) has out lasted and out functioned every other brand family and friends have brought with them. I'm still using it to this day and they(friends and family) have been through many of the other brands.

Another activity to use your GPS unit on is geocaching. Fun and gets you familiar to the GPS functions and navigation. It also introduces you to parks and public lands you many never know was in your backyard.
http://www.geocaching.com/

[jfdavis58]

Hi moooose102,

I was afraid I might further confuse the issue--SORRY. It's really not all that complicated. I'll answer your questions and take it a bit further by describing an actual navigation situation. First let me take a 'pot-shots' at other forum members.

All the bells and whistles don't just make it more complicated, they make it more capable and a LOT more fun! It takes about an hour to read the color manual and another hour of actual 'follow the example' finger work with the unit to get up to speed. It may take a bit more to master every feature, but ... Not all that much.

If you buy from REI, Cabelas, Dicks and few others, join their 'club' it will get you discounts and they offer GPS classes that take students to the field and teach the basics of both land navigation and basic GPS use.

I am a chemical engineer. I've had GPSr or used GPS since the late 70's-somewhat experienced.

GPSr typically have a reset button and can be returned to factory default with a simple click. They can also be re-flashed from the typical computer, getting a fresh operating system with all the current fixes. This is a plug and play operation-no problem. Unless you drop kick the unit, it is fairly sturdy.

I use the standard "AA" size lithium lithium energizer batteries-sky blue and silver and get 14 to 16 hours of continuous use-these are expensive. I also use some high capacity (2500mAH "AA" Energizers about $10.00 for 4) rechargeable types and get 8-12 hours continuous use on a pair per recharge (upto about 100 cycles)-these are cheap. And I have a car adapter (about $30.00US)-this doesn't charge the batteries, it powers the unit; but I also have an in car battery charger for regular small consumer rechargeable batteries-AAA,AA C,D 9v.

Like I suggested, you don't really need to keep it on continuously. Orient yourself, pick a distant recognizable landmark, turn the GPSr off and start walking. Each time you turn the unit on it will search for satellites, download the required information (almanac) and compute your position. If you make this a waypoint ( a stored location with a special marker and a user entered name), it will stay in the unit until it's erased.

Contrary to another popular internet myth you cannot walk far enough in a day to significantly alter your relationship to the satellites-you can drive or fly far enough. Only if you make such a move will you notice a significant change in start-up time and the associated battery drain. The first start of any GPS will take from 5 minutes to a couple of hours-I've never experienced this but... First the unit must identify the satellites it can hear; then it must download the orbital elements and position data (the long part-it's affected by cloud cover, overhead foliage, nearby buildings, hills and machinery); finally it calculates it's position-about one second.

A restart without much change of position or passage of time takes a few seconds. I've moved a unit or two across town in a powered off state, then restarted without much noticeable lengthening of start up time. I've also left units sit 'off' for months and then restarted almost immediately.

WAAS vs Surf. There are two groups (constellation) of satellites. The first and older set (wrt technology) gives position data (about 20 something birds=satellites). They do it for all types of GPSr: civilian private (you and me), civilian commercial (contractors, especially surveyors) and military/government. Cost of the GPSr is the main factor in resolving accuracy. Civilian private gets plus/minus 11 meters typically. For a few thousand dollars, civilian commercial units get plus/minus down to 3 inches. Military/government is classified.

A second set of satellites actually maintain both time lock and a position lock to fixed locations on earth. These are the WAAS birds. In North America, we can 'see' two such birds. Theoretically speaking they can increase positional accuracy to sub-inch levels. For the civilian private user the positional accuracy can be plus minus 3 meters. So, you will know that the position the unit calculates will be inside a circle on the ground 18 feet or so in diameter. With a technique called waypoint averaging (part of the 'geocaching feature set), the user can locate a position to about a one meter radius-6 feet circle diameter.

Under heavy cover, inside buildings and in areas with heavy metallic deposits in the soil the signal degrades considerably making the civilian private mostly unreliable. Surf is the Garmin answer to this problem. It's a new chip that improves both the reception ability and the data reduction ability of a GPSr. With Surf, overhead obstructions are a much, much smaller problem. I can actually use my Surf equipped GPSr inside metal building if a few skylight panels are present. Heavy brush and the typical single story dwellings (or top floors) are no impediment to signal detection and position fixing.

With WAAS enabled and a surf chipped unit I can tell on which end of the sofa somebody is sitting.

What's with the GPS, GPSr nonsense? GPS is the Global Position(ing) System, GPSr is a GPS receiver. Techno-speak!

So let's go somewhere!

It doesn't matter where, in a city or out in a field-you need an address or some coordinates. You can just wonder around if you like and the GPSr will track your movements so you can get back to the start, but that's just a subset of the go somewhere problem.

My Vista is next to me on the desk. I picked it over the plain Etrex because I'm a gadget guy and I like maps and the Vista has them but the plain Etrex doesn't. There is no difference in basic operation and that's what I'm describing so which unit doesn't matter. Still, I'm grabbing the Vista unit.

As I look at the unit the power buttion is on the right side, the lower button. Press and hold for about two seconds-the screen lights and the unit beeps. It immediately starts searching for satellites. In the time it took to three finger type the preceding it locked on and switched to the map screen. It can show which satellites it finds and the signal strengths.

On the screen I see the little waypoint flag that's my home location. I picked the Citadel building (Darth Vader building) as my destination-it is home to the NM Department of Public Safety, Special Investigations Division--the folks who do concealed handgun licensing. It's about a mile away and I know the address; it's: 6301 Indian School NE, Suite 310 Albuquerque NM 87110.

Above the power button is the screen paging button. I click this until I get to the 2nd main menu page-4 clicks--the Find page. With the four-way click stick (top left of screen) I select the Addresses-third down on left. Here I enter the city (using the four-way and an on screen keyboard)--or rather part of the name, it has a smart lookup feature, the address number and the street name. When all three items are entered it smart searches the map database for matches and I select the one presented. I click the goto button then off road, because I'm walking and I'm off. I need only follow the highlighted line as best as possible and in about 20 minutes I'm standing at the front door. I will need the building address marquee to locate the proper floor and office-GPSr don't do 'up'.

And that, friend, is all there is too it!

I could have turned routing on and let the Vista give me a turn by turn via the roads. Or I might have used the tracking feature to leave a trail to backtrack a return on the same path. I always leave a base waypoint so I can return home or to my vehicle or to some known start point. To use this I switch to the Find screen, select waypoints, pick the one I want and goto. Entering a waypoint is a process identical to the coordinate/address entry.

I could also enable the compass and watched the dial spin as I made my trip or had it tell me if I was drifting right or left of my desired track. And I could use the altimeter to see that crossing the freeway was a gain of about 60 feet in elevation and a corresponding drop. Even though this is the city, I could have checked on the hunting and fishing prospects too; they were slim, btw.

Trust me, and I'm serious; If you can read a topographic map and navigate by compass-learning the GPS will be a snap--just go slow and keep an open mind. This is my e-mail address: jfdavis58@comcast.net. Take the plunge: grab one up. Unless I suddenly croak, I'll be glad to help get you up-to-speed.

[deaconkharma]

+2 Magellan
I have the lowest model but it works very well. Wal-Mart bought and is pretty cheap and kickable. Also look into the Rino (if you have some cash) if you are with other people. it has a position broadcast feature that can lead others to you easily.
http://www.gpsinformation.net/rino/rinorev.htm

[MinnMooney]

I'm sooo surprised that no one has mentioned the Bushnell Onix series. These are great GPS units at reasonable prices and the ONLY one with actual satellite pictures that can be downloaded into your unit.

Check them out :

http://www.bushnell.com/gps/gps_products_overview.cfm?section=General%20Use

[jfdavis58]

MinnMooney,

I'm not all that surprised. It's new, it's buggy, support is spotty---at least that's what the general consensus is for those that bother to return to their internet merchants and write a review.

Satellite and aerial photos can be loaded to both Garmin and Magellan devices-high end only. It's kludgy and problems arise very quickly when one starts to overlay maps: roads don't 'line-up'; buildings and structures are equally misplaced and the view overall, gets muddied very quickly. Zooming in and out is problematic--scaling images and scaling vectors are time consuming and seldom provide exact matches. These are problems with virtually all photo plus overlay systems. Zoom-in to street level views on google maps and overlay the 'drawn' road map on the satellite photo view if you want to see the problem first hand. Match between road drawn and actual road in photo varies from pretty good to absolutely goofy.

While such a photo capability is interesting, it's ill suited for car navigation especially in congested areas or when speed is a serious factor--then less is better. A drawn map with map detail turned to a very low setting is often a necessity so the unit can keep-up with the motion of the car and the needs to make rapid and radical changes of direction to stay on the road.

Unless and until the satellite photos are in color-and perhaps real time, use in open spaces is also of dubious value. A good knowledge of foliage and growth to expect in/at various altitudes is beyond most casual users and while color photos could (would predominately) provide such info, only the most dedicated outdoorsperson would benefit. Cost would be prohibitive.

This much is true about Bushnells GPSr: it's a good looking unit with well placed controls and a nice screen. Bushnell has a lot of ground to cover tocatch-up with the other companies products--even at the low end.

[Zip7]

I sort of have a love / hate relationship with them. I love the one in my blackberry for finding the location of my son's ball games - I do that all the time.

I hate the idea of using one for hunting or scouting. Most of the places I hunt are large swamps where it is fairly easy to get turned around, but to me that's half the fun of it. I like to go in one way and come out another with just a compass. I do a lot of hunting at night, and I am never without a compass, and I tend to study maps of where I am going and sometimes carry a map with me.

[Run&Shoot]

jfDavis provided a lotof good info. I'll just add my two bits.

1) Reception capability is most important if you live in wooded or urban areas. My Etrex Legend with just a patch antenna is OK in open country and light cover, but get into heavy woods and it is worthless. The Helical antenna models such as Garmin GPSMAP 60 series have excellent reception according to my friends with them. All the search and rescue guys in this are use or aspire them. I'll take jfDavis' word that the "high sensitivity receiver" (Garmin's marketing description) in the HC and Oregon models are equally good reception. Some of these like the Legend HC are relatively cheap ($250 or so).

2) Decide whether you are going to use it as a basic waypoint, route, tracking device; or you want built in maps. Built-in maps mean you want a USB interface, SD card expandable memory, and the largest color display you can afford. For $500-$600 that would be sweet. Something like the Garmin Vista HC, Oregon, or GPSMAP 60CX. Basic means you need much, just good antenna, waypoints. Even a basic map display will at least show the spatial relationship of waypoints to each other.

Personally I get by fine with using my limited memory (8MB) Etrex Legend as a waypoint machine, to supplement my printed Natl Geo Topo! maps and compass. before hiking or bushwhacking I use the Topo! maps to explore the are and mark key points such as trailheads, creek crossings if water is important, key road or trail junctions, and any specific destinations such as a lake, ridge line, turning points, etc. The software gives me the waypoint coords which I upload into my Legend.

While out in the woods I refer to my map for headings and to confirm location. If I am not sure about my exact location I fire up the GPS and get a bearing to the next waypoint of interest. Repeat as needed. I would never be totally reliant on an electronic device. I also carry a mechanical altimeter when I am out on steep ridges and valleys as an additional position fix. at waypoints I cross-check the map/compass/altimeter with the GPS readings. I carry a small Rite-In-Rain notebook to record observations and a printout of all my waypoints, just in case.

Just as an FYI, I discovered first hand this year (after 40 years in the woods) that the local search and rescue guys use the UTM coordinate system. GPS units will support the degree/minute coordinates and the UTM coordinates. The USGS maps that topo! software is based on uses the NAD27 datum (the datum is basically the set of ultimate reference points that all coordinates are derived from), whereas a lot of other maps use the WGS87 datum. They differ by about 200-300 meters. So you should be able to read your maps and get your coords to the nearest 100 meters using the UTM grid and be able to communicate those and which datum your maps are based on to the local SAR team if necessary.

I had always used maps for my own orientation and position fix based on terrain features. I never practiced determining exact coordinates and certainly didn't kow about the three or four coordinate systems indexed on most topographic maps. I suggest learning that. A great book for using GPS with map and compass and learning the UTM system is:

GPS Made Easy (GPS Made Easy: Using Global Positioning Systems in the Outdoors) by Lawrence Letham and Alex Letham, 2008 (http://www.amazon.com/GPS-Made-Easy-Positioning-Outdoors/dp/1594851034/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221549377&sr=1-7)

My basic navigation kit is:
- basic GPS unit
- topographic map (printed from Natl Geo Topo! Oregon)
- baseplate compass that adjusts for declination
- Brunton ADC Ridge altimeter (could use any of the trekking watches from casio, Timex or Suunto that have an altimeter, or a GPS with built-in barometric altimeter)
- UTM grid overlay
- small notepad and pencil

Be sure you can navigate using map and compass as well as GPS waypoints and routes. Be sure to identify your terrain boundaries that you can use to take a general heading to bail out to in case of severe weather or injury: road, river, ridgeline. Be sure you can communicate your position to SAR teams in their terms using your map or GPS, regardless of what you use yourself (may be UTM with NAD27 datum or UTM with WGS87 datum).

[308win]

I would get a GPS if it would compute the distance in yards or feet between two locations - so far I have not become aware of a model with this capability. I DO NOT WANT A RANGE FINDER! thank you very much.

[rcmodel]

Actually, I think most will.

If you set two way-points, and then do a "go to" it tells you exactly how far it is from one to the other.

I used my eTrex Legend to lay out 100 yard firing points on a 600 yard rifle range. We then later used a range-finder to re-check, and all were within a pick-up truck length of being in agreement.

If you have topo maps installed, you can do the same with the "Measure Distance" feature between elevation changes, landmarks, etc. just by scrolling the pointer across the map and reading the distance.

rcmodel

[ImARugerFan]

Get a garmin, make sure it has the HC chip (WAAS) or it will be useless when you need it most.

[308win]

rc - Is that right; I have asked before and no one could seem to give me an answer. I will have to look at one. I do most of my ground hog shooting from one location and I want the distance to dens/landmarks. Thanks

[rcmodel]

Yep!

On mine at least, you can go into the set-up menu and change distance/speed setting from Statute (miles) to Feet/Yards.

Then it reads feet & yards out to a point I forget, (perhaps 1/10 mile , or 176 yards?) and then reverts to .01 miles again past that.

It may take some simple math to measure 627 yards, but it can sure be done!

rcmodel

[moooose102]

hate the idea of using one for hunting or scouting. Most of the places I hunt are large swamps where it is fairly easy to get turned around, but to me that's half the fun of it.
Zip7, i did this once, as a young man of about 19 years old. droped, and lost my compass. i was lost in there all day, it was a huge swamp around Houghton lake, well over 2000 acres. and finally made my way to a road, that was 8 miles from where my car was. i was lucky enough to get a ride from a local back to my car. i must have walked 20 miles through that damn swamp (which as you know can be very tough going). i would not be able to do that now. no way. the one thing i learned from that trip, was tie your compass to your body! and take a second one, packed deep within, so it can not get lost. one of my big reasons now for wanting a gps, is my memory is fading, partly due to age, and partly due to medications. i am also going to try something. since i am stuck hunting on public lands. i am going to bury apples this fall to try to grow several spots where deer will come back to year after year. i will only plant these near area's where the deer already frequent. but, i will plant in an area where the deer do not typicaly wander (low traffic area's) i know that they can wander just about anywhere, and the majority will get eaten as young plants. but i will plant lots of them. some will survive to be trees. hopefully, this will help in years to come if not for me, at least for my son. to bad i didnt think about this when i was 20!
now, back to the gps thing. i did not know they could be that accurate! i thought if it got me within 50 ' i would be happy. reception is going to be EXTREEMLY important to me. mostly, it will be used IN THE WOODS. fishing is basicly something i just do for the kids. every kid should be able to go fishing now and then. cost will be an important factor, $5-or 600 bucks is going to be out of the question. i do want to be able to save lots of different locations, and have the gps guide me back to them, maybe years later. what is this utm coordinates? i thought if you gave gps coordinates, any search and rescue team could find you. of course this would depend on cell phone coverage, or cb radio reception. (i have an old set of walkie talkies that use cb radio frequency. reception/transmit distance of about 1&1/2 miles.

[dagger dog]

I have 2 Magellans, a bare bones 100 and a 500 LE. I do geocaching, go to their web site www.geocaching.com and then to the forums and then to the equipment and technology forum and you will find info on all types and just about any drawbacks or plusses on different models .

The garmins are definitley easier to download maps and upgrades, magellans Map Send Topo 3D is a good map program for hunters hikers and the outdoorsman, they are in cahoots with Trails.com which makes some of the most comprehensive backwoods maps going.

The thing I like best about the GPS over a compass is, you can get out of your vehicle and take off cross country wind around and the take a beeline back to your car with out having to worry about taking a back bearing and having to figure overshoot, that does away with the 1 1/2 mile walk down the road when you emerge from the woods.

You do have to take into consideration battery life, always carry back up.

But you really want to do some research before laying out that 250 -500 bucks for a deluxe model.

[Run&Shoot]

Good suggestion to try before you buy. Try hiking or hunting with a buddy who has one, or if he is a real good buddy, borrow it and get some instruction from him.

GPS should never replace map and compass, so be sure you are proficient with finding your way and identifying your position with landmarks as well as coordinates on the map. Then figure out if you just want waypoints and coords with simple mapping, or you want sophisticated topo mapping and lots of exchange with your PC.

Even basic units will give distance and bearing between current position and a waypoint, as well as elevation and coords for current position.