[againstthagrane]

i went into my local gun store the other day looking for a new 9mm to play with. after waiting around for a reasonable time the clerk asked me if i needed some help so i said that i did and i even made myself a lay down sale. i told him i had some money that was burning a hole in my pocket and i wanted a classic type 9mm (glock 17, sig 226, beretta 92fs, czz75...etc)


i had $695 dollars to blow and not a penny more. i saw a new looking used sig p226 sitting in the display case for $650. i had $695 dollars to blow and not a penny more. the sales tax around here is 8.25% so the grand total would have been $703 after tax. i asked if he could drop $8 off of the price so i could buy it today. the guy behind the counter straight up shut me down, his answer: "No...", "our prices are set.". :rolleyes: no apology, no remorse. after the cold shut down, i thanked the guy for his time and i left. honestly, as kurt as he was with his reply, he could have offered me an HKP7 for $50 and i still would not have given that place a nickle of my money. it's actually quite hilarious, because this is the third time i've TRIED to buy something from this place due to it having a convenience factor since it's only 10 mins from my house.

i'm not bitter or anything, i ended up buying a brand new glock 17 with the od green frame for $100 less at my favorite gun shop that is 30 mins away from my place and i couldn't be happier.

here is my question...instead of letting a customer who is ready to spend their hard earned money on a pistol walk over $8 wouldn't you do anything to make the sale? i don't know how much guns are marked up but i would assume they bought that pistol in for about $425 if it was marked at $650. call me crazy, but i would much rather make $217 than $0.

[Tribal]

Some places just don't like haggling or anything that seems like it. I've know plenty of places who have a rule that if the gun's new, the price is set at what it's marked.

The thing is, the rule can be broken. If you say that you've got precisely X amount and it's pretty close, they'll do it. Some places even leave their employees the "magic 3-5% off card" to throw down if they really need to make the sale.

As for the used P226, I can't imagine why they wouldn't sell it to you for $8 less. Maybe that employee was new or was on thin ice with his manager. Maybe he wanted the gun for himself. My opinion is that you ought to call the manager and share your experience with him and tell him that he missed out on a sale because of the employee's inflexibility.

[bogie]

Or maybe the place had had too many counter people cut deals for friends that turned out to be kind of stupid, and now the owners have the "engraved in stone" pricing rule...

Odds are, they've figured out a cost+shipping+setting+percentage of profit figure, and they're going to stick to it.

[againstthagrane]

bogie,

i could definitely see that being a possible cause.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I would say, that for the counter guy, not knowing you and him not being the owner/manager, it was a good move. Maybe he doesn't have the authority, and maybe bogie's circumstances are indeed correct.

I would call and speak to someone truly in charge. Maybe they can make an exception for you and get your $695 without having to dismantle their whole policy.

[hopelessjoe]

The gun shop I have dealt with for years will work with your budget (provided you actually plan to be a good consumer and give them a decent chunk of your change for years to come) as long as they won't have to take a big hit.

A certain minimum markup is required in order to stay in business...

An 8 dollar faux pas is not good.

Did you ask to speak to the owner?

That how I generally get my best deals. The counter help is not always willing/able to deal with price ''negotiation''.

[Run&Shoot]

Every business has to decide what they need in markup to make it worthwhile to stay in business. An intangible factor often overlooked is the gaining of a "loyal customer."

With big retailers and the Internet the concept of a loyal customer has nearly disappeared. How many customers blow smoke about how many they will buy in the future and turn right around and buy the next five products off the Internet?

I have been a dissed customer and walked out same as you, but I am under no illusion my purchases every few years is going to make one whit of difference to any one shop. If they are surly to too many customers they will close down. If they stay in business then they probably make more right decisions than wrong ones.

Very few clerks or even owners seem to think creatively about sales anymore. Like you suggested, they don not realize you are ready to buy, you just need to see an interesting value.

One shop around here is pretty good and I buy most of my stuff there. I have gone in determined to buy another Glock. They don't have the model I am interested in, but hey, look at what we just got in on consignment. I walked out with a sweet S&W 617 .38 at a really good price. Another shop I walked in pretty sure I was going to buy a HK .45 compact (which they were out of) and walked out with a used SIG P245 for $300 less. The counter guy just took time to find out what I was trying to accomplish, or what other interests I had in guns.

A few minutes of attention and exploration can make a sale. Too many of the shops just want to chat with friends or sell you something and get rid of you.

[ColinthePilot]

$8 to make a sure sale? If I were the salesman, I would have said "no problem," taken the $8 out of my wallet after the customer left to even up the register, and maybe discuss reimbursement with the owner later. Even if it cost me $8, worst case is its an hours pay, or a little part of my commission. And I've made a customer happy, which should make the owner happy.

[Son of Sam]

As long as I was going that far I'd pull the $8 out of my pocket in front of the customer so he knew it was indeed ME who made the sacrifice for him (not management) and would seek me out for later purchases in the future, hopefully not to con me out of another $8 but because kindness and politeness are a salesman's best tools, aside from knowledge of the product, that is.

It's surprising how more customers seem to know that than salesmen these days, isn't it?

[Bubbles]

If it's not a "special" P226 (e.g. Elite, Competition, Navy, etc) then the first number in the price for a used one should have been a 5, not a 6.

[22-rimfire]

I know it sounds hard to believe, but sometimes rules are rules when it comes to employee's pricing things.

I'm sure many gun shops hear the same thing over and over again. You may need to sort of prove it to them. From their perspective, you could have probably whipped out a credit card. But I'm surprised they didn't accept that as payment in full regardless of what I'm about to say....

I have made deals that way myself at gunshows. If I say that is all the money I have, then that is all the money I have with me... but is that all the money I have? I don't use ATM machines, so at shows, it really is all the money I have with me and I rarely come back.

I don't know how much guns are marked up but i would assume they bought that pistol in for about $425 if it was marked at $650. call me crazy, but i would much rather make $217 than $0.

I face this issue just about every day. Do I want to make $300 or hold out for my regular price with a $400 margin (as an example)? I can only answer the question based on my mood and my sense of value. Sometimes I will make the deal and other times I won't. If you keep reducing the price of things (in my case-services), then people place no value on your pricing and word gets around. I'm the best at what I do in my area and I have problems discounting at times. But I do it.

[Hoppy590]

8$ isnt anything. iv been given more than that worth of free stuff just for buying a gun ( 3 boxes of Brown Bear 7.62X39, a can of Mace, roughly 25-30$ value). clearly that wholesale cost of those items could have been taken off the gun, instead of giving me the free stuff. but if a good shop wants your business, they let you know. these guys clearly dont.

[highorder]

If it's not a "special" P226 (e.g. Elite, Competition, Navy, etc) then the first number in the price for a used one should have been a 5, not a 6.


Agreed. Since when is $650 for a used Sig 226 any kind of deal?

Having said that, I would think that any manager would have easily made up the $8 difference for the sale. You dealt with the wrong person.

[Guntalk]

I'm reminded of a friend who is a pretty good negotiator. She was trying to get a room at a hotel which was supposed to be sold out, but she knew it really wasn't.

The person she was talking to kept saying no, so Pat asked him, "If there was a room available, would you be able to give it to me?"

The clerk admitted he was not authorized to do that.

Pat asked to speak to someone who had the power to say yes.

"If you can't tell me yes, then I won't accept a 'no' from you."

It's a great line, and a useful way to look at things.

[BruceRDucer]

AgainstTheGrane:

Let me put it this way, in hopes that some business person might benefit in some small way.

Kurt answers, such as emphatic NO can sour customer relations. In fact, it has happened to me many times.

So rather than say the business owner was absolutely right or wrong, I would suggest this. In a Scenario like yours, instead of saying NO outright, the businessman should learn to TALK to you a little bit. He can just as easily say NO later.

I think a smart businessman would ask you things like:

"What kind of guns appeal to you?"

"Do you prefer Brand A over Brand B?"

"Would you consider a Lay-Away for a week or so?"

"Could you wait till your next paycheck, and I can discount some accessories worth $8.00 but not the gun itself."

or...."Let me see if I can work with you."

_____________________________________________

The idea is that once the customer is in the store, that's the time to establish a relationship.

I think a smart businessman would do that.

He can also say "NO!". That's when the customer can choose to say NO to doing business there also.

Sometimes people can give you the short shrift one month, and great service the next. Go figger.

/

/

[Eric F]

When I worked in a gun store, the owner had a fixed 3% mark up on a $600 gun he is only getting $9 so Yeah I can totally understand why he would say no, however on a used gun........depends on what he paid for it, I dont know sig priced but if it were close to the mark up price and selling 3-5% over I can understand the guys feelings.

[bogie]

Tom, what gets me are folks who undo perfectly good negotiations... Few years ago, got a hotel room after a little dicker with the clerk... Down about $20 or so... So, we get in there, and the bedroom lights don't work. Fine. Time to sleep so we can get up early. At checkout, my girlfriend gave them hell about the lights, and demanded a discount. So I think she got about $5 or $10... From the original...

Sigh.

[MAKster]

From the store owners perspective why couldn't you just pay $8 more. Anyone willing to pay $695 for a nonessential item like a gun can surely come up with $8 more. Skip lunch or don't buy that sixpack of beer. Clearly the store was not concerned about losing the sale. They are confident that someone else will come along and pay the list price.

[jcwit]

Part of it liking to hagle. I always ask if they can do better in price, depending on how they answer makes a difference whether I buy or not. With a real short NO or snotty comeback I'll usually tell them $1.00 would have made the difference between a sale or not. Usually makes me no difference or not because my collection amounts to more than what they have on their table/tables anyway. This pertains to gun shows only.

[absolute0]

Most any experienced buisiness person would happily shave 1.5% off an already (IMHO) above market price for a guarenteed quick cash sale. If the shop has the gun already priced to move and a prospective buyer cries short money on an already good price; well then, that's another matter.

Sounds to me like they didn't deserve your business.

[OregonJohnny]

I have a gun shop that is a 45-minute drive from me and one that is a 10-minute drive. The 45-minute store ALWAYS bargains with me. If I'm making a trade, they give me more for my trade-in than other shops offer. If I'm straight-up buying a new gun, they'll always drop off 2 or 3% from their sticker (they already have better prices to start with). Or they'll throw in a box or 2 of ammo.

The 10-minute shop sucks in this regard. I'll ask to pay $600 cash for a $629.99 gun and they refuse every single time. So I go to that shop to "try-on" guns and see what fits me. Then I take my money to the 45-minute shop. It might work out pretty close when you figure in the gas money, but I'd much rather give the same amount of cash to a shop willing to make a sale.

[zoom6zoom]

I walked out with a sweet S&W 617 .38 at a really good price. Wow, must have been a rare factory prototype... the 617 is a .22

[againstthagrane]

it was technically used, but had never been fired.

while i agree that the significance of the $8 could be argued either way.

i was up front with the guy. i told him that i did have the money but that i would have to drive all the way home and get it. i think any business that would make a customer waste $10 in gas AND not discount him $8 on a $700 dollar sale is insane. yeah, they might make that extra $8 on the next guy who comes in and wants to buy that gun, but what about the next 40 guns i buy? i won't buy them from their shop, and THAT, my friend, is where the real mistake is in my opinion. not the immediate gratification of that one sale, but the multiple others they're losing out on.

i've only been into guns for a short time since i'm fairly young, but i've already aquired a pretty cool start to a collection. i'll be honest , almost all of my fun money goes towards guns. i've bought an hk p2000sk, dpms ap4 with millet zoom dot GG&G cantilever quick disconnnect and cav. arms buis, g17, sti trojan, taurus 1911(which i sold due it being the crappiest gun i've ever owned, beretta px4,beretta 90-two,marlin 60, ruger 10/22, and that's just in the past 2 years! i'm on pace to buy 150 guns in the next 30 years, not to mention ammo and range time. THAT is why you give a person $8 off if it'll make them happy. it's not even like i was in the haggling mindset either, i was really in a jam and the guy didn't give a crap. so rather than waste my time driving home and back i just drove 20 minutes up the road to some people who would appreciate someone spending some hard earned money at their establishment

[Mr. D]

$8 surely doesn't seem like that much. But, be that as it may, Run&Shoot is right - do a little something for your customers and try to build a loyal customer base. $8 is a cheap price toward a possible second sale down the road, but it'll do a lot towards giving the customer a good opinion of your business if your are easy to work with.

Even if the salesman couldn't mark it down $8, he didn't have to be short or turn-offish in his refusal. And, of course, it would be part of his job to interest you in something you CAN afford at the moment.

~Dale

[JohnBT]

"i was really in a jam and the guy didn't give a crap."

Let me see if I understand. You had $695 in your pocket, a ride parked in the lot and more money at home and you think you were in some kind of a jam? I don't see it.

Why didn't you just write a check for the $8 or put on a charge card. Heck, I probably have $8 worth of change in my car. And then there are the 2 c-notes in my driver's license. You never know when you'll find yourself in a real jam. Be prepared. ;)

John

P.S. - "this is the third time i've TRIED to buy something from this place"

Maybe if you had actually bought something from them before they would have worked with you. Hint: Never ask for a favor in front of other customers. Move the discussion over to the side, out of the way.

[searcher451]

This is one of the reasons why it sometimes pays to become a regular customer of a specific shop and to deal as exclusively with that shop as is logically possible or feasible. In my neck of the woods, there are a half-dozen or so gun stores that could attract my business. During the past year and a half or so, I picked one and have stuck with it, telling the owner that if he took good care of me, I would do my shopping with him. And it's not that I don't look elsewhere; in fact, I do. But I also let my guy know when he's a bit on the high side of things (I've even shared when he's on the low side of things), and I've found that he has appreciated that help and treated me accordingly. And yeah, I'd rather pay this guy a few more dollars from time to time on some deals, just because I know that he'll take care of me on others.

The bottom line is that there is no way $8 would have come between me and the shop's owner and I gun that I really wanted. A good relationship, built with trust over time, would ensure that.

[againstthagrane]

i was in a jam, i didn't want to waste $10 in gas and 30 minutes of my saturday afternoon. time is the only thing in this life that we can never replace.


we're talking about less than 1.5% of the price. that's stupid business, period.
to put that into perspective for you, john. that's like me being two pennies short on a cheeseburger at Mcdonalds. do you think the guy would make me drive home and get the rest of my money?

let me tell you something about america, friend. this is a land of CHOICE. if you want to succeed in business you have to add value to what you are hocking. any joe blow can open a business. the question is, how are you going to add value to what you're selling? what make's your hamburger better than the hamburger joint i've been eating at my whole life? why is your t-shirt worth more than this other brand? the problem is that the line becomes blurred when you're selling something that is being sold at other businesses(cars, guns, electronics). so then as a business you have to ask yourself how you're going to get people to buy your toyota corolla versus the toyota corolla at the other car lot. so you either price it low, create a promo, pride yourself on customer service, throw in free add ons or anything to differentiate yourself from your competition.

basically what i'm saying in that rant is that if a business has your "toobad, so sad go eff yourself attitude" that you're exhibiting towards a customer, they will soon find that their sig 226 isn't any more special than the one being sold at the 12 other gun stores around here for the same price. if you don't get that, then i feel sorry for you.

[scrat]

ok im late in the game. but i think that really sucks. i would write a letter and send it to the manager. if its a chain wide store take it up. They may not get your money today. however we all know that the last thing we need to see is another gun store closing down. we need these guys. it could be policy but there is a better way of dealing with it than the way you were treated.

[Arcturus]

If you have $695 in your pocket and he refused a sale which his business would of clearly profited on, he should find a new job.

I have a local gun shop that did the same thing, twice. The first time he didn't want to sell me the Smith & Wesson I wanted and tried to pawn me off on something $150 more. I told him what I wanted, the specific model, etc.

Moral of the story is I walked out and I've spent thousands at other shops because they have far better customer service.

[JackBurtonJr]

Or maybe the place had had too many counter people cut deals for friends that turned out to be kind of stupid, and now the owners have the "engraved in stone" pricing rule...

That's what phones are for if the owner isn't in.

[JackBurtonJr]

i would write a letter and send it to the manager

And include a copy of your reciept for the Glock

[hopelessjoe]

From the store owners perspective why couldn't you just pay $8 more. Anyone willing to pay $695 for a nonessential item like a gun can surely come up with $8 more.

Maybe an honest person with a family to feed has scrimped and saved and been given a limit by his SO and hell better have high water if he goes over that limit.


Some of the folks here just assume that all Americans have cash to pull out of their butts.

Would you haggle for your dream pistol if the the final number came down to eight bucks?

I bet you would.

[SCKimberFan]

Here are some magic words the salesman could have used:

Let me see what I can do...

If the answer is still no, then so be it, but at least the attempt was there. To be short with the customer does not endear that customer to that place of business - any business.

[john917v]

I am a business owner, and I KNOW that sometimes a few bucks (or even a few cents) is a deal-breaker! That handgun probably cost them maybe $350-$400, the rest is profit. $8 won't send them into bankruptcy. And, they would have made you a very happy (and probably recurring) customer!

[bullseye308]

I have a fairly local reloading shop that I frequent. He carries everything I could ever need to reload and has a nice pistol counter also. I needed a carry piece and while looking at some brass and powder(what I went in for), told him I had a 300.00 budget for a carry piece. He pulled out an Astra A-100 that just melted into my hand and pointed perfectly, I had to have it, but the price on it was 369.00+ tax and paperwork. Told him that was my gun and I had to have it for 300.00 out the door. :) He dropped to 350, and I told him I'd look around a while and talked to another guy that worked there about some powder. Apperently he thought I was getting back into reloading and needed a new setup and a butt load of components that I could get from him(he was right). Talked to the counter guy again and he didn't want to budge from the 350. Finally told him I'd take it for 300.00 OTD and he needed to hand me the adoption papers, and he did. :cool: That was my first visit to that store and I have gotten almost everything else from him since.

[Ala Dan]

My boss declined an offer of $325 OTD for a ever-so slightly used Ruger
BN-34 .357 Blackhawk ANIB, with all papers and docs~! Instead, the ole'
guy dropped $329.88 + 9% sales tax on this particular weapon. But, you
have to understand; this wasn't this customers first rodeo, as he does a
lot of "wheeling and dealing"~! :uhoh: ;)

[tinygnat219]

Hey,
Retail is hard enough in a heavily regulated industry.

For 8 bucks you walked out on a nice sale? Yeesh. Write a check for the total, or use the charge card.

[Claude Clay]

often with a non essential purchase i have a strike price. if it works, fine. if not, also ok. if it is still there the next time perhaps i'll open offers again or it could well be that im on a different quest. but $8.00 is kinda like, well, ua know...hardly even the tip on a good dinner out.

[rioalumni05]

i would have cut the 8 bucks off to have a repeat customer

[Hook686]

Would I do anything to make the sale ? Nope.

You used the line, "Not a penny more". I figure I can use the line, "Not a penny less". Is one more rational than the other ? I think not.

It comes down to a willing buyer and a willing seller. If neither are willing, then so be it.

If you are not willing to spend $8 more, I see no reason to be willing to accept $8 less. Actually if it happened the way you explained it, you would have come across to me as having an 'attitude'. I am not required to sell to you.

[lamazza]

Penny wise and dollar foolish...

[Old School]

The guy was lost. Sometimes you just have to walk.

[jad0110]

we're talking about less than 1.5% of the price. that's stupid business, period.

The really idiotic thing is that the OP was paying with cash, saving the gun shop the 1.5% to 4% fee that credit and debit card companies slap on merchants each time a customer swipes their card at their business :banghead: .

So in reality, said gunshop may have netted the same or more money by selling at $8 less to the OP, than selling at list price to someone with plastic and having to pay the fee to the credit/debit card company. DOH!!!

I can usually get a decent 1.5 - 3% discount at my favorite gunshop just by paying with cash. Sometimes I can get a bit more, but it depends. Bud's prices online are all stipulated on cash as method of payment; I believe a 3 or 5% markup is added if paying with plastic. Unless the gunshop is charging ripoff rates on their guns, that is usually not where the money is made. If the firearm prices are fair, there is probably very little markup over the price they paid. The shop I frequent appears to have a 15-20% markup. But remember, they have overhead costs, salaries and other expenses they have to cover too, so that 15-20% is not as much as it appears.

From what I understand, gunshops often make more on the accessories (and to a lesser extent ammo), which have a higher markup than the guns themselves. Kinda like a gas station: though they make a pretty good amount on the gas (just by the volume that is sold), the per gallon profit isn't much. The high margins come from the goodies inside, by charging customers $1.40 for a 20 oz soda (when you can get a 2 liter for less) and $2.99 for a crappy little bag of chips.

[Sir Aardvark]

I always ask if they'll negotiate.

The worst they can say is, "No!", but if you don't ask, then you'll never know.

[Daryl Licht]

For me, the 8 bucks would have been far less significant than "the attitude". Once I've seen "the attitude", I don't go back.

Who knows? This shop could be one of the those who would be quick to whine about the internet putting them out of business. Those who have "the attitude" probably shouldn't be in business to begin with.

I do have to add, some customers are afflicted with it too, and some shop owners are better off without their business.

[Double Naught Spy]

i was in a jam, i didn't want to waste $10 in gas and 30 minutes of my saturday afternoon. time is the only thing in this life that we can never replace.

Oh I get it! The gun shop was stupid for not compensating for your laziness and lack of preparedness. :rolleyes:

Time is the only thing we can never replace, and yet you keep wasting time at the same shop? I am not sure you understand your own value system or applied the moniker correctly.

[sumpnz]

If you want to negotiate and win one thing you have to do is A) have the cash available to flash if you need it and B) not be emotionally wrapped up in the deal.

I bought 3 complete DPMS lowers for AR-15's with telescoping stocks at a gun show last June. The dealer wanted $250+tax for them. Not a bad price but not a screamer either. Stripped lowers plus parts kits would have run about as much plus I'd have to put them together. I offered $700 OTD for three of them ($820 OTD for full asking price). He countered at $800 OTD and argued the cost of stripped lowers plus parts kits was no better. I offered $750 saying that I could get the parts kits over time and I didn't have to get complete lowers right then, but would at the right price. He hemmed and hawwed and finally took it when he new it was a cash sale right then and there.

Another time I was looking at used F-150 Supercrews. I decided what they were worth to me, and made offers based on that to a couple dealers. The salesmen typically knew right away that I wasn't going to fall for high pressure tactics, I wasn't going to be upsold, and one even came out and said that he didn't want to waste his time if I wouldn't pay his price. So we walked. Wound up with a great deal on Ram 1500 Mega Cab instead.

When you get emotionally wrapped up in a purchase the salemen know it and will take you for a ride. Decide what you want and what you'll pay ahead of time and then shop around until you get the deal you really want. Going into a gun store and having half a dozen models you're considering means that they can up sell you on something you'd not otherwise buy, or pay more for it than you shoud.

In the end it sounds like you got a better deal in spite of yourself by walking away ticked off from the first shop and going to the other one.

[adam_oz]

As a former high school student who worked in a gun shop i could understand where he was comming from. The mark up on guns is not much at all. With a used gun who knows what the store bought if for. But if it was a matter of making the sale i would always go ask the boss about price adjustments. He would come down 8 dollers. but that is also taken into acount when he sets the price

[againstthagrane]

Quote:
"i was in a jam, i didn't want to waste $10 in gas and 30 minutes of my saturday afternoon. time is the only thing in this life that we can never replace."
-againstthagrane

"Oh I get it! The gun shop was stupid for not compensating for your laziness and lack of preparedness."

Time is the only thing we can never replace, and yet you keep wasting time at the same shop? I am not sure you understand your own value system or applied the moniker correctly."

-Double Naught Spy

no they were not stupid for the reasons you listed. they were stupid because they lost a certain sale and many in the future from me and everyone of my friends that asks me where the best place is to shoot and where to avoid.
read the original post, i told the clerk that i had money burning a hole in my pocket. if you're in sales i was what you would refer to as a "lay-down" sale. salesmen love these kinds of sales. they don't have to spend an hour with someone who may or may not spend money. literally the PERFECT customer. i stated a budget and what i wanted. so instead of catering to my willingness spend, he chose the other extreme: "this guy is going to buy no matter what, so i'm not going to even try." it wasn't the discount it was the unwillingness to even try to make me happy that upset me. business is about making money and in order to do that consistently you need repeat business. so four strikes and you're out. i will no longer buy ANYTHING from them, much less big ticket items. i will rule them out of contention for the membership i plan on buying at a shooting range later this year. it was obviously not a good move on their part. i left that place for the fourth time with a horrible taste in my mouth. the time before the last i asked if they carried magpul products, and it went a little something like this:

"yeah, we do." the clerk replied
"do you have any ctr stocks in stock?" i ask
"no."
"can you order me one?"
"you can probably just order them online.":banghead:

another jerry jones in the making? i think not, lol

as far as me not living by my own creed, again, i ask you to READ THE ORIGINAL POST. this place is three times closer to me than the other gun store. if they leave me feeling happy ONE TIME i would feel good about shopping there and return there. on future trips i would save 40 minutes round trip, everytime i go shooting, shopping or browsing. :) assuming i'll shoot once a week once i get the membership, i would be saving 34 hours of my sweet precious time a year. totally worth giving the poor muggles a 4th shot at gaining a customer, but alas, it was not meant to be. i will not, however, ever get the time back i just spent trying to enlighten you.:neener: