Realguns 45/70 load data


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Big Boomer
September 15, 2008, 02:47 AM
Has anyone used this load data?

I am looking specifically at the cast data found here:

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570cast.htm

The load in particular is this one:
Laser Cast Cast FP 405 .459" 2.535" 53.3 Re 10 47.0 CCI 200 1836 3032 0.5

405gr with 47gr of reloader #10 seems quite a bit excessive. I have a marlin 1895 cowboy and loaded increasing loads from 44 to 47gr

Just wondering if these are safe or if I should downgrade them a bit. I've already loaded 120 rounds and it would be a pain in the arse to pull them all.

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wanderinwalker
September 15, 2008, 09:00 AM
Well, I just checked out Alliant's free online guide, and they show 44gr of Rl-10X as being MAX for a 400gr jacketed bullet in the Marlin lever actions.

Honestly, I would be suspicious of the Realguns .45-70 data. I found some data over there listed for the T/C Contender that I would limit to my Encore or a Ruger #1. (The Contender is quite a bit smaller and not designed for high-pressure rounds.) Your 1895, while strong, is not in the same league as the Encore, #1 or converted bolt actions.

If it were me, I'd tear down everything loaded over 44gr and try starting around 40gr.

snuffy
September 15, 2008, 12:23 PM
The Lyman 48th lists a load of N-130 that does 1828 fps, with a 405 cast. That of course means next to nothing expect top velocity. They do not list RX-10, or any of the reloader, (alliant) powders(for cast). But for the jacketed, they list RX-7 as doing a max of 1795 fps.

I would say IF you can stand the recoil, AND your lever gun can stand the pressure, go with the lower half of the loads, and pull the upper half. Not knowing hoe the "cowboy" marlin is built, I can't say if I'd even shoot the lowest load in it. Not because it would harm the rifle, but what a light 45/70 can do to your shoulder!:what::uhoh::scrutiny:

Mine is a H&R buffalo with a 28" bbl. That confounded hooked butt plate digs in even with light loads. Even though my rifle is SUPPOSED to be able to handle what your 1895 can handle,(as far as pressure goes), I would NOT even consider that top load!

Asherdan
September 15, 2008, 03:46 PM
If you check the original article (http://www.realguns.com/archives/117.htm) you'll see that Joe used a Ruger No.1 with pressure trace equipment mounted for testing out those loads. He includes the pressure data with the loads in the article.

I've worked up from his data after cross referencing with other sources without issue using the 350g Laser Cast in my 1895G.

Same good advice as always, read, cross reference, back off 10% and work up in your rifle.

Cypress
September 15, 2008, 05:38 PM
I got my 1895G approaching 1900 fps with 405 grain Cast Performance WLFN and IMR 4198. I stayed at or under Hodgdon's max.

tbtrout
September 15, 2008, 08:55 PM
On a side note Tail Boss is great for target or cowboy action. Verry soft shooting, clean and accurate.

1858
September 15, 2008, 10:28 PM
Your 1895, while strong, is not in the same league as the Encore, #1 or converted bolt actions.

I've been trying to find out what the 1895 is capable of. My Sierra 50th Anniversary Rifle Reloading Manual groups the 1895 with Ruger No.1 and No.3 rifles and Siamese Mauser bolt actions. (They used a Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel to generate load data for the .45-70).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=392243&page=3

There appears to be a lack of agreement among reloading manuals as to which group the 1895 falls into. According to VihtaVuori, Reloder 10X has a similar burn rate to N130 and this is what VihtaVuori lists for a 400 grain bullet.

N130
400 grain bullet
44.7 to 49.7 grains
Max. velocity of 1834 fps

They do add "WARNING: These loads are to be used only in modern rifles like Ruger #1 or .45-70’s chambered on Mauser type bolt actions. They MUST NOT be used in old rifles with weaker actions like Trapdoor and old Marlin mod. 1895. The listed maximum loads do not exceed 210 MPa."

Big Boomer
September 16, 2008, 01:15 AM
There appears to be a lack of agreement among reloading manuals as to which group the 1895 falls into. According to VihtaVuori, Reloder 10X has a similar burn rate to N130 and this is what VihtaVuori lists for a 400 grain bullet.

N130
400 grain bullet
44.7 to 49.7 grains
Max. velocity of 1834 fps

They do add "WARNING: These loads are to be used only in modern rifles like Ruger #1 or .45-70’s chambered on Mauser type bolt actions. They MUST NOT be used in old rifles with weaker actions like Trapdoor and old Marlin mod. 1895. The listed maximum loads do not exceed 210 MPa."
__________________

well if this is true then the loads they listed should be ok in a new model 1895. Granted they ARE top end and cast bullets should not build up as much pressure as jacketed (i think). I do NOT want to run Ruger #1 loads but they did list as safe in an 1895. I've used plenty of data from them from the pistol end like the 460 rowland, and the 45 Super. Granted these are "magnum" loads I did back off about 10% so down to 44gr from a max of 47. I loaded 10 rounds of each in 1 grain steps till then end then loaded .5 grains for the last jump.

So the consensus is that I'll most likely break my shoulder first?

I also loaded up some 350 grainers hornady round nose that seemed warm too.

These will be my first loads, I wanted to push the envelope to see what the gun (and I) could take. Then once I felt the true roar of a heavy 45/70 I'd back down to the plinkin loads. (everyone wants to see what their guns can truly due once)

I did that with my 500 S&W (once, only once)

What do y'all use for your 405gr cast loads?

Asherdan
September 16, 2008, 12:39 PM
Action strength and max pressure rating is always a hot potato when discussing the modern 1895 and the 45/70. Some data caps it at the SAAMI 28k psi. Some, like Hodgdon, consider the action strength, 444 and 450 design similarity and actual testing and take it to 40k cup. That Hodgdon (and Barnes) would put out data to that level is a pretty strong reference for safe max in the design.

Personally, I feel the 28k psi loadings will perform great for the vast majority of uses in the cartridge and my 'working load' uses a 350g cast bullet and Rx7 in that range.

However, I do believe the higher end option is there to use. I have had no issues with using Speer's 35k data for the excellent #2482 300g bullet or Accurate data @ 40k psi, Hodgdon at 40k cup or Barnes data for the 250 & 300 TSX FN tested to 42k psi.

And yeah, when I work those up I put on the PAST sissy pad.

snuffy
September 16, 2008, 01:10 PM
And yeah, when I work those up I put on the PAST sissy pad.

Call it what you want, but it sure as heck stops the bruises. It's either the past magnum pad, or ruin the looks of the curved buttplate of the buf classic, by cutting it square and installing a cushy recoil pad.

There was some controversy about just what pressure levels the H&R single shot could handle. Hodgdon told the owner of the gunshop I bought the rifle from that it was only rated to trapdoor levels. So I called H&R, asked the lady who answered the phone just what WERE they rated to. Her answer was they could stand the second level in most manuals, the lever gun loads.

That said, I seldom go to the top levels the rifle could take. The recoil is just to vicious. Even WITH the "sissy" pad!:mad::what: I even had it pop open once, apparently it wasn't snapped close hard enough!:rolleyes:

wanderinwalker
September 16, 2008, 02:15 PM
If you check the original article you'll see that Joe used a Ruger No.1 with pressure trace equipment mounted for testing out those loads. He includes the pressure data with the loads in the article.

I've worked up from his data after cross referencing with other sources without issue using the 350g Laser Cast in my 1895G.

Same good advice as always, read, cross reference, back off 10% and work up in your rifle.

Thank you Asherdan. I see most of his loads listed topped out around 30-35k PSI, which should be Marlin-safe. The SAAMI-spec for .450 Marlin is around 51k, listed here in this article (http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm). He also notes that Marlin says the heat-treating was different between the 1895M and G models.

So that top load is probably safe. Good luck and good shooting!

Oh, and I can agree with the pressure signs issue. My .45-70 loads in my Encore are hotter than Trapdoor-level loads, but the CCI-BR2 primers (bought 1000 of them accidently once) still have a readable "B" printed on them after firing. So much for reading primers for pressure signs below 35k PSI! :uhoh:

1858
September 16, 2008, 03:19 PM
wanderinwalker, thanks for the link to that excellent article. This is potentially good news for me since the VihtaVuori loading manual specifically states for the .45-70 "The listed maximum loads do not exceed 210 MPa." 210 MPa is about 30,500 psi which is close to the SAAMI spec of 28,000 psi for the Marlin 1895. The article suggests that 40,000 psi is the absolute limit for "safe" loads so I think I'll be staying around 30,000 psi which should be a lot safer and more pleasant to shoot.

Obviously more research is needed but this is a good start. If anyone has QuickLoad and wouldn't mind entering the VV load shown above (with the appropriate variables) I'd appreciate knowing what kind of pressures are generated over the range of charges shown.

:)

Big Boomer
September 16, 2008, 10:21 PM
Thank you Asherdan. I see most of his loads listed topped out around 30-35k PSI, which should be Marlin-safe. The SAAMI-spec for .450 Marlin is around 51k, listed here in this article. He also notes that Marlin says the heat-treating was different between the 1895M and G models.

So that top load is probably safe. Good luck and good shooting!

So I am good to go minus the bruises?

Asherdan
September 17, 2008, 01:00 PM
The loads in the tested rifle and chamber topped out at 30k psi. If you followed directions as to brass, primer, trim length, crimp, OAL, etc. you have 10k psi of slack before you hit the problem/excessive pressure ceiling in the modern 1895.

I look at Alliant's data for the Speer 400g with R10x and see it caps at 44g with a 2.54 OAL. Alliant has capped the lever action 45-70 at 28k in past manuals so we know that jacketed load is under 28k.

I would shoot them and test them out. I went through the same process working up the 350g Laser Cast bullet with Rx7 and the Real Guns data proved out for me.

Funny enough, I wound up settling on the Alliant 385g cast max recommendation of 45g for that powder as my best performer.

Good luck! You don't have to listen to me because I ain't pulling the trigger for you!

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