Uzi drop test/Israeli firearm standards?


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PaladinX13
September 15, 2008, 01:01 PM
I have a moot court case which springs from the unintentional discharge of a dropped Uzi. I'm looking for figures or drop-test information or Israeli firearm standards which would tend towards such discharge as unlikely/improbable. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

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yesit'sloaded
September 15, 2008, 01:06 PM
Umm...you know they have a grip safety right?

PaladinX13
September 15, 2008, 01:14 PM
Cars have brakes and still get into crashes.

What I need is a study, statistics, or proof that an Uzi will not go off upon being dropped.

MDW GUNS
September 15, 2008, 01:15 PM
Talking about the full size full auto UZI; as more used a UZI is and the bolt is back, chances are big that it will fire when dropped.
With the bolt forward, the chance of an AD is very low but not impossible.
UZI's are known for being "fire happy".

Cacique500
September 15, 2008, 02:16 PM
Suggest you ask over on www.uzitalk.com (http://www.uzitalk.com) - I'm sure somebody there can point you in the right direction.

the bolt is back, chances are big that it will fire when dropped.
With the bolt forward, the chance of an AD is very low but not impossible.

I disagree with the above. The full size UZI (f/a) has a grip safety so getting that bolt to move unintentionally w/o depressing the safety would be difficult, even if dropped. As for it firing with the bolt forward, I think that MUCH more likely. The FS F/A Uzi fires from an open bolt, so putting the bolt forward you'd be resting it on a cartridge and I would think any minimal impact would fire it since the bolt face would already be resting on the primer. I would never recommend trying to put the bolt forward on a live round...similar to trying to "decock" a 1911 with one in the chamber. You may get away with it once or twice, but you're just begging for an ND.

MDW GUNS
September 15, 2008, 03:27 PM
Obviously you had no dealings with an UZI.
Of cause you donít have a round in the chamber when the bolt is forward.
That would be totally stupid! Not only that it might AD this way also when the bolt is pulled back, this round would be ejected.

You let the bolt forward and then you put the loaded magazine in the UZI.
This is a common way of carrying an UZI and if you need to shoot you only slide back the bolt, push the safety forward and pull the trigger.

PercyShelley
September 15, 2008, 03:28 PM
Doesn't the uzi have a ratcheting mechanism in the top of the receiver that interfaces with the charging handle in such a way as to prevent drop discharges?

Trebor
September 15, 2008, 03:34 PM
Ok, for your case is the gun in question a semi-auto version made for commercial sale or a full-auto version?

It makes a HUGE difference. The semi-auto fires from a closed bolt.

The full-auto fires from an open bolt, like many SMG's. Unfortunately, open bolt MG's are more likely to fire when dropped. If the internals get jarred, the bolt can slip off, fly forward, strip a round off the mag, and fire. That's why they added a grip safety to the Uzi.

So, semi auto closed bolt or full auto open bolt? If you don't know, you need to find out, as they are two different designs and the safety specs on one aren't relevant to the other.

MDW GUNS
September 15, 2008, 03:34 PM
Doesn't the uzi have a ratcheting mechanism in the top of the receiver ...

This "ratcheting mechanism" is there to prevent the operator to let the bolt go before it is all the way back.
With other words, when you pull it only half way back, then it can't go forward.
Also, this is not in the receiver, it's in the "lid" of the UZI.

PaladinX13
September 15, 2008, 04:03 PM
So, semi auto closed bolt or full auto open bolt? If you don't know, you need to find out, as they are two different designs and the safety specs on one aren't relevant to the other.It's full auto... however, it'd be nice to have the safety stats on either model.

Trebor
September 15, 2008, 06:25 PM
Ok, it's full auto then.

The people to ask would be over at www.uzitalk.com

I don't know if anyone is going to have any verifible statistics as such. But, if anyone does, someone over there would know about it.

Post over there, explain the moot court thing and specifically tell them its for a full auto UZI. I think that's your best chance.

RecoilRob
September 15, 2008, 06:58 PM
I know for sure that a Sten can fire if dropped on its' butt from bolt forward with loaded mag. The impact on the butt will move the bolt rearward far enough to allow it to strip and fire a round but not come back far enough to let the sear grab it.

Assuming that the FA Uzi would be in a similar situation if dropped hard on the butt.

Funderb
September 15, 2008, 07:01 PM
drop failure is a very common problem for firearms that fire from an open bolt with a static pin. if you buy an OB firearm, expect drop failure.

glocking26
September 15, 2008, 10:03 PM
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38725

Aaron Baker
September 15, 2008, 11:55 PM
I have a slightly different response to the original poster: don't try to win moot court competitions with outside facts. They're looking for the quality of your motions and oral arguments, ability to make timely objections and legal research skills. You're not usually supposed to supplement with outside facts.

Plus, whoever is judging you probably isn't knowledgeable enough about guns for this fact to make a difference.

Aaron

loneviking
September 16, 2008, 12:05 AM
Just as an aside, the Israeli Uzi ammo has a hardened primer to take the slamming of the bolt. I've taken a 9mm Israeli manufactured round, put it in a 9mm revolver and have had to drop the hammer multiple times to make the round go off. I wouldn't worry too much about a dropped gun---possible, but very unlikely for a round to go off.

Cacique500
September 16, 2008, 10:56 AM
With the bolt forward, the chance of an AD is very low but not impossible.

Of cause you donít have a round in the chamber when the bolt is forward.

Can you explain to me then how you'd get an AD in this situation? I made the assumption that we were talking about having a round in the chamber...as referenced by my "decocking a 1911" statement. According to your scenario, the gun can have an AD with bolt forward and no round in the chamber...I'd like to know how this is possible.

Obviously you had no dealings with an UZI.

You mean other than the FS F/A Group Industries RR one I own? :neener: Play nice now, I think we are talking about two different situations. But I would like to know how you'd get the AD bolt forward w/o one in the chamber.

RecoilRob
September 16, 2008, 07:59 PM
But I would like to know how you'd get the AD bolt forward w/o one in the chamber

See post #12. Try it for yourself on your gun. Does the bolt retract far enough to strip a round?

Golan
September 16, 2008, 09:51 PM
discharge as unlikely/improbable

Uzi's are notorious for accidental discharges, one reason why the IDF only allowed it to be carried with an empty chamber and with magazine removed. I doubt you will find an Uzi anywhere in Israel other than the odd one in a museum or some miscounted one in an armory. Even the Police no longer stock them (and the Police Civil Guard still stock the M1 Carbine). The Uzi is a piece of Junk in a world where Micro weapons proliferate. Oops! As an Israeli I should have said it was the best piece of weapons engineering ever designed but then again, my mom taught me to tell the truth instead of being smart!

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