7.62x25 Is it time for a comeback?


PDA






jsalcedo
September 8, 2003, 12:08 PM
After reading several threads and investigating the 7.62x25 myself recently
it got me wondering.

It might be a good idea to start chambering some modern handguns in this
caliber.

Pros:

Same case and base diameter as 9mm luger

will use same bolt face and extractor as many 9mm autos out there

Flat shooting

Good characteristics for reliable functioning in an autoloader.

High muzzle energy

Commercial availablity of ammo is ramping up


Cons:
Longer overall cartridge length might cause problems in using existing designs.

The market might not be ready for a hot .30 cal autoloader

Problems with overpenetration might preclude its use as a viable self defense round.


Personally I would be excited to see Glock run with the idea
and tempt all the polymer pistol aficionados with this cartridge gun combo.

If you enjoyed reading about "7.62x25 Is it time for a comeback?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
DMK
September 8, 2003, 01:07 PM
Problems with overpenetration might preclude its use as a viable self defense round. Penetration is at the same time both a chief benefit and the Achilles' heel of this round. I think this is the main reason we don't see any civilian guns chambering 7.62 Tok.

It's penetration abilities make it a great military round, able to punch through light cover or heavy clothing and gear a soldier might be carrying, but that's a liability for a civilian if it can punch right through an attacker and hit a bystander behind him.

Magsafe tried to come up with a solution of high velocity shotshells, but that might go to the other extreme.

David4516
September 8, 2003, 02:30 PM
I think you could solve that porblem with a well designed JHP...

I think it would be really cool if more pistols were avalible in this caliber...

Silent Bob
September 8, 2003, 03:26 PM
Which is louder, 7.62x25 or .357 SIG?

PCRCCW
September 8, 2003, 04:05 PM
I have considered this situation for a long time. I feel the caliber is very feasible for self defense and other situations as long as we get rid of the "FMJ only" rounds that have been available forever.
If Corbon/Barnes/Speer.....could come up with a ballistically friendly JHP design...I feel the caliber would be very popular.

Honestly, consider why the Sig 357 has taken off so well. It offers all of the benefits the Tok has but in a currently compatible chambering...40 S&W.

The format/platform would have to be the right one...1911, USPC, Glock etc.
Any 45 ACP based gun...that is also available in 9mm would work very well.
Just a barrel replacement away.

Would 9x23 or 38 super mags work with the Tok round? Find a mag, verify the extractor would work and call Barsto. Once the barrel issue is out of the way...a good JHP is all thats needed.....IMO, anyway. :D

Shoot well

Tamara
September 8, 2003, 04:52 PM
Longer overall cartridge length might cause problems in using existing designs.

No kidding.

7.62 Tok is too long for even .45 ACP/10mm Auto/.38 Super mag wells. :uhoh:

DMK
September 8, 2003, 05:15 PM
For sake of argument, here's a pic showing length comparison.

Left to right, .357 mag 158gr., .38 Special 158gr, 7.62 Tok 90gr., 45ACP 230gr., 40 S&W 180gr., 9mm 115gr. (all FMJ except the 357 SP)
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=476705

Zak Smith
September 8, 2003, 05:24 PM
If you ignore the projectile diameter, the common loading of an 85gr @ 1450fps (or so) can be duplicated in 9x19mm using published reloading data and 90gr bullets.

In particular, I've done a 9x19mm 90gr Gold Dot (intended for .380Auto, .355") at 1400-1500fps using VV powders and no pressure problems. Of course, you don't get the BC nor the sectional density of the 7.62 projectile.

-z

444
September 8, 2003, 06:33 PM
No.

Justin
September 8, 2003, 06:40 PM
I really dig this round, and would be thrilled if some companies started releasing modern pistols chambered for 7.62x25mm.

Like Tam stated, it's biggest problem is that it's OAL is just so freaking long, which means that whoever designs a new pistola for it better hire a really good ergonomics engineer.

I think it would be really cool if someone made a modern-style carbine for this round as well. I'd be curious to see what sort of velocities you could get out of a 16 inch barrel.

Tres cool :cool:

BevrFevr
September 8, 2003, 06:40 PM
put a ballistic tip on it. That should solve your overpenetration issues.

-bevr

SelfProclaimedExpert
September 8, 2003, 06:43 PM
will use same bolt face and extractor as many 9mm autos out there

This isn't an advantage because none of the 9mm slides are going to have enough room between the breech face and lug area to eject the round, except the Beretta 92, which really isn't built for the hammering hot Tok loads are going to give. So you'd need a brand new slide, mag and frame. No one has built a dedicated frame for a new caliber since the Glock 20. Not gonna happen.

You might be able to re-chamber a Desert Eagle .357 for Tok, but extraction would be problematic, at best.


If you only want the performance of the Tok ammo that is safe for the Tokarev pistol, then you're talking the same velocities as .30 Mauser and .30 Luger. In that case, get a .30 Luger barrel made for whatever 9mm pistol you want and shoot than. Many gun manufacturers already make them for the Euro market.

David4516
September 8, 2003, 08:40 PM
Thats an interesting idea, I bet it would be much more simple to convert to .30 Luger.

And how about .32 NAA? I've thought about buying anoter Makarov to convert to that caliber. The guys at Makarov.com say you can get 1450 + FPS with 60 gr bullets...

http://www.makarov.com/32naa/index.html

Anyway, back on topic...

Hornady makes 90 gr XTPs in .30 caliber (for reloading, not factory ammo). A friend of mine tryed them in his Tokarev, and for the most part they seemed to work pretty well. We did have a few failures to feed, they almost chambered but the slide didn't go forward all the way. I think this problem is fixable...

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/729749

Solinvictus70
September 8, 2003, 09:01 PM
I currently own a Tokarev and have owned a couple of CZ-52's. I love the round for the very reason that it's essentially a hand cannon. I'd love to see it adapted to a decent action (maybe Kalashnikov) carbine. I've fired a wide variety of new and surplus ammo through my pistols with not a problem one.

Cthulhu
September 9, 2003, 01:53 AM
A Kalashnikov styled carbine for the 7.62x25 already exists; The Bizon. You don't get the helical drum that the other calibers offer, but it does use 20-30rnd stick mags. Good luck getting one here though. You might be able to talk Mark Krebs or another enterprising AK smith to make a reasonable copy of one, but the cost will be significant.

I'd take a modern platform for this cartridge, perhaps in an scaled up CZ/Witness design. As other posters have pointed out, a pistol designed from the ground up to house this round is required for it to work properly. While I have seen ex-Chinese 1911s converted to handle 7.63 Mauser rounds, they are questionable butcher jobs at best.

Unfortunately .30 Luger rounds never chrono up to the spec of the 7.62x25, despite what Cartridges of the World indicates. Differences can be 100fps or more in favor of the 7.62x25. Some might say that a higher pressure varient would increase velocity and terminal performance of the 7.65mm Luger round. This is obvious. However, the same increase in operating pressure would benefit the 7.62x25 even more due to its higher case capacity. Whether or not the extra velocity outweighs the added complexity and expense of getting a pisol built to accomodate the larger round is up to the user.

If you enjoyed reading about "7.62x25 Is it time for a comeback?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!