[Badger Arms]

:confused: Read that question without any emphasis. I did not intend it to be sarcastic. This thread is about what is really wrong with the Remington 870. I'd like your input.

What don't you like about the Remington 870? Please limit your answers to the shotgun itself, not Remington's politics. I'd like to know failings, design flaws, areas for improvement, etc. Feel free to criticize model-specific items such as those annoying dimples in the magazine tube or how you hate the finish on the Express. I'd like to know what's wrong in terms of design, materials, fit and finish, stocks, ribs, construction techniques, etc. I'll start with my criticisms:

Shell carrier: I bent mine trying to reinstall it. This should not bend as easy as I bent it.

Ejector: Why couldn't they make one that the user could replace without refinishing the left side of the receiver?

Finish: The inside of my Express Receiver had razor-sharp burrs which cut the living crap out of my hands when I tried to detail strip and clean the gun.

Don't get me wrong, I love the gun. I think it's the best thing out there but that doesn't make it perfect. Fire away.

[Navy joe]

Dimples, Plastic trigger group, and locking safety on some models. Great gun otherwise.

[TrapperReady]

I've got a pet peeve about shells getting hung up between the shell carrier and the bolt. Jams like that can be quite difficult and time-consuming to clear.

Unfortunately, the only time I've ever experienced these have been with an 870 and an 1100 (both in 20ga, curiously). The one in the 870 cost me a chance at a couple ring-necks.

That being said, I think the 870 in particular (I don't much care for 1100s or 1187s) is a very well-designed firearm. I highly value anything that can be quickly and easily field-stripped and cleaned with a minimum of tools, and the 870 scores high in that category.

The only other thing about the 870 is that (IMHO) the new small-gauge models weigh far too much for their intended payload. I've looked at the 28ga, and I swear it weighs more than my much older 20ga.

[Fed168]

Pot metal trigger guards.

[cslinger]

I have an 870 Marine Magnum and I have nothing bad to say about. Would have been nice with Ghost Rings on it but that is about it.

Chris

[riverdog]

My three 870's are all over 20 years old. That's my only gripe because they work just fine.

[Dave McCracken]

(Hiss as fresh can of worms opens)....

I'll ignore politics and Political Correctness. Here's my short list of things that could be improved.

That ejector first. It works fine, but it takes the factory to replace the thing once it cracks near the front. Never had this on a personal weapon but did ship a few agency weapons back.

Shellcatchers that can be removed for cleaning by average folks and replaced without stress. Behind the shellcatchers is one of the more common places for rust to start.

A return to the quality and finish of yesteryear. I understand the economics that led to the dimples, but by Heaven I'd rather pay the dollar more. Same with the ball detent on older mag caps.

Choke tubes and barrels marked with actual inside diameter. I've mentioned having the barrels measured on my TB and #6. The TB runs .733" and the older barrel on #6 runs .725. If these barrels were Remchoked, the same tube could be IC in #6 and Modified in the TB.

A "Serious" stock available from the factory with about a 13" LOP. Better for fast crisis resolution and smaller shooters.

Titanium parts for those that like lighter shotguns. The bolt carrier plate, mag cap and stock bolt come to mind.

The obverse,a mag cap suitable for adding a little weight to steady the swing.

Sling studs on everything but Target guns.

And last but certainly not least, long forcing cones...

[Rupestris]

Sling studs on everything but Target guns.

I'll second that one.

I have a new Express Magnum with synthetic stock and a 40-something year old wingmaster with hand checked stocks and neither of them have sling studs. I paid $129 for my Marlin model 60 synthetic and it came with studs. :rolleyes: As hunting guns I'd like a sling for the field. I'll add a stud to the Express but I really don't want to mess with the wood on the WM.

Asside from that, the only complaints that I have are that the newer Express with the synthetic stock had a loose washer that would rattle up and down the stock bolt when tipped. Easily fixed but I have heard of others with the same issue.
And the last issue/complaint is that I can never find 870's on sale Buy-One-Get-One-Free!:p

[Daryl]

The Remington 870 is a fine shotgun. Has stood the test of time very well.

[Gordon]

I note most complaints are with the "express" variety!~!:rolleyes:

[TechBrute]

NavyJoe and Dave pretty much summed it up for me.

Are you sure we can't get into the politics of it?:neener:

[Badger Arms]

Are you sure we can't get into the politics of it?Not like I have veto power, but there are political considerations which directly effect the safety for one which you might want to gripe about. Personally, I don't have any experience with the new safeties but I don't think I'd like them. I do know that the safety on a Model 700 makes the gun less acurate via greater lock time IIRC.

Dave: Installing swivel studs is a 10 minute job with the right tools, 15 minutes without. I don't think that Remington cares whether or not the gun has them, but it is a BIT cheaper to make the gun without them, I agree. I've got a whole box full of studs and various swivels to choose from if I ever need them.

[TechBrute]

I'll just whine about politics and run...

What's with Remington's policy to only sell the Police model 870s to agencies? This doesn't really affect me due to a relationship I have with a Remington LE dealer, but come on...

[Badger Arms]

What's with Remington's policy to only sell the Police model 870s to agencies?Remington has so many different grades of shotgun that it's almost absurd. They have the high grade competition models, the Wingmasters, SPS, Express, and Police grades. There are no less than 5 finishes - polished blue, camo, marine, express, and parkerized. Then they have infinite combinations of sights, cantilever scope mount, plain, vent rib, remchoke, mid-bead, chamber length, safety style.... I'm getting light headed.

What Remington needs is a simplified and standardized product line. Too many choices water down the breed.

[dfariswheel]

Not getting into politics (as we all start swinging, biting, and kicking), Remington DOES NOT restrict the Police gun to police-only.
This is an Urban legend.

Remington only sells LE guns through Remington wholesalers who are LE distributors. Not all Remington wholesalers are LE wholesalers.

Most shops that sell Remington guns buy them from a Remington wholesaler, and if their wholesaler doesn't happen to be a LE wholesaler, they may have trouble finding one.

Many smaller dealers have heard that Remington restricts the LE guns, so they don't even try to get one, since they think the story is true.

An email to Remington will clear all this up. Having heard how the police guns are restricted, I emailed Remington, and their response was to go to any dealer that bought from a Remington LE stocking wholesaler, and have the dealer order the gun of my choice.

My local dealer did not regulary buy from a LE wholesaler, so he had to make a special order with one to get it.

A little trouble for my dealer, but I now own a Remington 870 Police gun.

[mnrivrat]

Never did like the staked in shell latches that have a tendancy to pop out when there not suppose to not to mention what has already been said about not being able to clean behind them properly. The shell carrier is a bit weak on some and I have witnessed a good deal of bent ones. But what realy reminds me of the New Coke is that god awful plastic combo magazine spring retainer & magazine cap retainer. The one that also requires those dimples to hold it in place . YUK !

:rolleyes:

[Johnpl]

Tang-mounted safety. The best feature of my Mossberg. I know, it would require a re-design of the trigger group...

[D Hags]

Had mine since 1968, prior to choke tube availability. Have several barrels including a deer rifled barrel. Has been in the bottom of duck boats, layed in the snow, etc. Works everytime I pull the trigger. A great gun!

[Badger Arms]

Tang-mounted safety. The best feature of my Mossberg. I know, it would require a re-design of the trigger group...Not just the trigger group, the bolt and the whole receiver as well. I don't understand why some feel that the tang safety is an asset. Sure, it's ambidexterous and you can SEE if it's on or off, but I never look at the safety and I always KNOW if it's on or off because I have a sound manual of arms. Is this just a lefty thing or what? Are you left handed?

[Johnpl]

Not a lefty. I love my 870's but I find that, especially with gloves on, to push the safety off is not the easiest movement, particularly with my Express, which seems to have a sticky safety button, that I'm working to free up. (That twice-broken index finger has led to limited dexterity!) The thumb flip of a tang-mounted safety seems to work better for me, especially on a cold morning, but the 870 is still my go-to shotgun.

I wasn't commenting on the feasiblity of re-engineering the 870, just adding to the "wish-list".

[TrapperReady]

For hunting in very cold weather, I really prefer a tang-mounted safety. As Johnpl noted, working a regular safety with heavy gloves can be cumbersome. Besides, I just find it more ergonomic to have my thumb just below the safety, with my trigger-finger fully extended along the side of the trigger-guard.

I consider it to be a very minor thing, but as long as we're developing a wish list...

[Correia]

The 870 is one of the best guns ever. And one of my personal all time favorites.

HOWEVER...

The new key safety is just plain stupid.

The finish on the new Expresses is hideous.

Some of the newer 870s I have seen have not been up to the quality level I would expect compared to older Remingtons.

As for tang safeties, I like the button better, but that is just my opinion.

[Jaywalker]

Johnpl: Tang-mounted safety. The best feature of my Mossberg. I know, it would require a re-design of the trigger group... You bet! I still have memories of a nice buck jumping (safely) out of a bush right in front of me while I was trying to work the (non-existent) tang safety on a buckshot-loaded shotgun. I'm trained through the years to look there - Sheridan air rifle, Ruger M77, and Beretta O/U. That's just where the safety should be - just ask my thumb!

Jaywalker

[mod12]

hate the shape of the trigger guard. makes the gun look like flash gordons' ray gun. front edge of receiver is squared off leaving it looking like some one took an axe to it. should be sold with a set of wheels so you can tow it behind you, alot easier than carrying that beast around all day. ...........that said, it's just like the energizer bunny, it goes and goes and goes and goes.my gripes are all cosmetic. of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder. only use mine in the duck blind or deer hunting. natural pointer for me.was originally purchased in either 1952 or953 by my father who loved it. take a look at the trigger guard on a mod 12 that's graceful. look at the machining on a mod 12 receiver, that's attention to detaik. heft a mod 12, a half pound less. mod 12 had receiver scaled to gauge. however those 870's run forever! thanks dad.

[Dave McCracken]

A couple things here....

First, I found out that the new keyed safety can be manipulated to ON sans key. BAD idea on something we may be using for defense. Besides, what causeth my gorge to rise is that Big Green has deigned to offer only that safety. Sure, the old style can be obtained aftermarket,but I loathe paternalism in all its odious forms.

As for the polywhatever trigger guard, plastic can be a great material. If the things start breaking, then I'll gnash my few remaining teeth over them. Same with the mag follower. Kuhnhausen more or less states that the steel follower peened the receiver in high volume usage on target guns, probably trap models. Some of mine have steel, some plastic, all have worked flawlessly.

Badger, true about the studs, even a ham handed technodunce like me can install a set, at least on wood stocks. A minor point, but I wanted to cover all the gripes I have.

One thing people have kinda hinted at but not dragged out into the light is the trigger housing is a skosh small for big hands in warm gloves and mittens. I can find the safety OK, but inserting an oversized and insulated digit in fast took some practice.

Model 12, your namesake is a terrific shotgun, just too expensive to make and compete in a free economy. And, I gotta admit the 12 is very high on the relative prettyness scale. But, the 870 outnumbers the 12 by at least 4 to 1. The market has spoken, and the 12 was voted off the island.

All in all, the 870 is the best thing going in do all pumpguns, and likely to stay that way for decades more. Feel free to prove me wrong....

[Badger Arms]

While we're on the subject of prettyness, I think that the 870 is one of the better looking guns available. It's hard to go wrong with the smooth styling lines and at least some of the foregrip styles are attractive. I don't find any fault with the LOOK of the trigger guard, but I don't understand why the bolt release couldn't be placed in the RIGHT place... you know, right where John Moses Browning put it... on the RIGHT side of the trigger guard. The Remington Model 17 has about the best looking lines of any shotgun anywhere. Smooth, flowing, stepped, and sexy. If you have to have an ejection port on the Side, the 870 port is just right for my tastes. With a polished or jeweled bolt, it's downright purdy.

All of the "UGLY" features of the 870 are bows to economy. Milling steps in the side of the receiver is expensive. Best to cut the receiver off at the front like most shotgun makers do. There's also the magazine cap... the Browning/Pederson style is better looking than 870, but the 870 is much cheaper and allows extended magazines without a barrel/mag change.

[PJR]

I don't like the safety at the rear of the trigger guard and would prefer it in front like the Winchester. I've accomodated this problem by going to an aftermarket, oversized safety.

The the plastic follower doesn't inspire confidence and I replaced it with a sturdier replacement.

Triggers in most current 870s range from okay to awful with the Express triggers being uniformly bad.

In the subgauge models only 25" barrels are available and I'd like the option of somthing longer.

But until I find something I like as much, it's my choice.

Paul

[mod12]

altho i'm a mod 12 fan, i find the location of the safety on the 870 easier to operate. the mod 12 is a little too far forward and too small for my taste. i prefer the 870. years ago, herters sold an oversized cover and i still regret not buying one. all of "the good old things" are long gone i'm afraid. it's easier to slide my finger forward to the trigger than to pull it back. this may be an idiosyncracy on my part. if i had my druthers all safeties would be on the tang,

[Blain]

I've got a pet peeve about shells getting hung up between the shell carrier and the bolt. Jams like that can be quite difficult and time-consuming to clear.

That, the new plastic trigger gaurds, and plastic mag follower are the main faults of the express.

The main fault with the Express Super Magnum is that it has a standard 870 size bolt, and just a flimsy metal covering attached to it by a spring to cover the rest of the reciever hole! This flimsy piece of metal has been known to break, and jam up the gun while firing heavy 3 1/2" loads! Remington SHOULD make a special Super mag size bolt to eliminate this drastic problem. The reason the said they do not do this (according to those at Remington I called) was that the price increase would be too high.....I somehow doubt it.

[Badger Arms]

The reason the said they do not do this (according to those at Remington I called) was that the price increase would be too high.....I somehow doubt it.Looking at the gun it's obvious that the cover is designed to allow a 3.5" magnum to feed from a receiver concieved to handle the 2 3/4" shell. It allows the gun to use the same bolt throw and still have the firing port covered. It also means that the receiver length is the same, and parts commanilty is retianed. This is a TREMENDOUS advantage considering the availability of aftermarket and factory acessories. Why reinvent the wheel? I haven't heard anything bad about this part myself.

[Blain]

Why reinvent the wheel?

Because the wheel of a car is insufficent for a truck!

I haven't heard anything bad about this part myself.

Fire some heavy 3.5" mag loads out of the gun (what it was designed to shoot) and you'll see the problems.

[Badger Arms]

A problem like this cannot be fixed by making a new bolt. If Remington were to do that, they'd have to design a new receiver and essentially make a whole new gun. I'd be interested to know if anybody else has experience with this. Most of the other items brougth up have been nit-picky such as finish, location of the safety, and materials. A verifiable, repeatable design flaw is another story. In use, the shell carrier will never bend. It's just fragile when removed from the gun. You're saying that these covers just pop off under recoil?

[gulogulo1970]

Hate the position of the safety. I like my Mossberg saftey much better. Finish is kinda rough but it only cost me $190.00 new. The 870 points/swings very well for me though no complaints there.

[mnrivrat]

Badger


He is saying they come loose in firing & use - and they do - it is a problem on the super mags and Rem needs to address it. They may not need a new bolt design, but they do need to do something to improve the reliability of this part. I have also had to straighten several lifters that got bent in use so it does happen - although not that often.
One last coment regarding the new style magazine spring retainer who's front teeth are suppose to serve as the locking mechanizim to make sure the mag cap doesn't loosen. Take that mag cap off and on a few times from new and see how fast the points of the teeth dull. While not the worst problem in the world it certainly is a deteriorization of quality in my opinion . Manufacturing cost reduction should not come at the expense of the products quality & reliability as that reduces its value.

:D

[JBhunter]

Location of the safety need to be in the front of the triggerguard.

In all Remington shotguns a light weight reciever would be nice.

And of course the plastic parts and locks.

[Mikul]

I'll make another vote against the safety. Anything that would allow me to remove it withouth moving my hands would fine.

Otherwise, my old Wingmaster is a beaut! Quick barrel changes, easy upgrades, simple to maintain, versatile, and available used in good shape at reasonable prices. I knew of the Express complaints so I avoided them.

[Badger Arms]

Hmmmm. I guess I don't get it. For me, the safety is just perfect. I can operate it great with my right hand. If this is only a lefty problem, I can understand. Save for a tang safety, which I don't like, perhaps the gun could have had a Garand style safety?