AD from a smart carry type holster


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loneviking
September 16, 2008, 12:33 PM
I'm not eager to post this, but an airline pilot friend of mine told me that my AD changed his mind about how he carries on duty, and maybe my story will change someone elses' mind as well.

Friday, Sep. 5 is a day I will long remember. I'm 47 y/o, married, father of three (10,18,20 y/o olds) and I've been shooting since I was ten. I've never had an AD or ND; I've never been injured by a firearm. I'm the type that triple checks for safety; the type that reads the manuals of a firearm to know how it operates.

This spring, I bought a CZ 82 which is a Makarov design, 9mm Makarov caliber pistol. I've shot the CZ 75's on several occasions and I like the simplicity of the CZ design along with the all steel frame. I'm not a big fan of autoloaders, as they have a propensity for AD/ND that revolvers don't have. But, I figured the little gun would be a good BUG and good for the wife or girls to shoot and/or carry. At the time, I only had one handgun and that was my full size, Colt .357.

One big problem with the CZ 82 is finding a holster. I had looked at a lot of holsters and was intrigued with the Smart Carry holster for deep concealment. Reno had a big gun show at the end of August, and I had hoped to find the folks from Smart Carry there so I could look at their holsters 'up close'. Instead, I found someone selling a nylon version of this holster. He claimed that this holster was thinner and the nylon was tougher than the Smart Carry material, so the holster would last longer. At $30 the price was right, and the CZ snuggled into the pocket like it was made for it.

The holster looked like this:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/loneviking/Picture002.jpg

So, I tried out the holster first with the gun empty. I normally carry the CZ 'cocked and locked', and I wanted to make sure the manual safety wouldn't come off. The problem I had was that the gun wanted to slide into a 45 degree angle with that double stack grip canted over on the right side, which was uncomfortable. Anyway, the gun seemed to carry safely with the manual safety staying on, but the problem was comfort. I wasn't carrying with the gun trapped under my belt, it was below the belt and not comfortable.

I pulled up the Smart Carry site and the video they have of putting on a Smart Carry rig and tried that technique, which seemed to work. You have the gun carried on the centerline of your body, with the grip under (or just below) your belt and the barrel pointed straight down. On the morning of the accident, this is how I was carrying the weapon.

Friday morning and I've put the holster on, slipped the gun into the pouch and I'm planning to go to town on errands. The dogs are bugging me to go for a walk along the river, and I figure it won't take that much time. We live on a hill above a small river, so I take the dogs and head out down the dirt road to the river. At the river, I check the guns' safety, and it's still on (remember, this is a new position for me to carry it in).

I walked for three or four hundred yards along the river, as usual. Coming back there is a point at which I have to stop and pull the stickers out of my little Schnauzers fur. I squatted down to pull the stickers, and the weapon discharged one round into my groin.

Part one....part two in the next post.....

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loneviking
September 16, 2008, 12:47 PM
When the weapon discharged, I remember standing up and yanking the weapon out of my pants, wondering just what the #$%^ had happened. It's an odd feeling being shot. The body is screaming that it's in trouble while the mind is racing to catch up on what just happened.

I realized I was bleeding pretty good, but not enough to have hit an artery. I safed the weapon, stuck it behind my back and put pressure on the wound. I then discovered a big mistake I had made---no cell phone! I had to walk back, about 1/4 mile to the house to roust my daughters and call 911.

I'll make a long story short in that I was Careflighted to a trauma center where a very good surgeon took three hours to repair the damage. The round was a 95 gr. Hornady XTP that patially fragmented. I had three holes in my penis and a smashed left testicle. I know this is a bit graphic, but especially the guys need to realize what can happen when you carry a gun 'ready to go' inside your pants.

I was discharged the next Monday, and a full recovery is expected. The blown out bottom of the holster looks like this:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y213/loneviking/Picture001.jpg

Folks, everybody needs to be really careful not only how they carry, but in what they carry. I can only figure that having the slide under the belt allowed the safety to come off leaving the gun cocked. The holster material was very thin, which apparently allowed the heavy denim of my jeans to bunch into the trigger guard and set the gun off.

One of the rules of choosing a holster is to get one that covers the trigger guard---but you also need one that is made of a material stiff enough to prevent anything from pushing on that trigger!

You also really need to think about a worst case scenario if you're carrying a semi-auto IWB that is ready to fire. Is that really a good idea? Or would a revolver be a better choice. I know that some jurisdictions have rules on firearm carry that make it almost impossible to carry except in deep concealment. But do yourself a favor and carry as safely as possible.

My airline pilot friend decided not to carry an auto-loader in an IWB after hearing what happened. He instead will be carrying his Ruger SP101 in a cross draw rig when he's piloting the commercial airlines he flies. I hope my story gets others to thinking about the consequences of how we carry.

Treo
September 16, 2008, 12:47 PM
The CZ -82 has a DA carry option. I never carry condition one that close to "the package"

Dave P
September 16, 2008, 12:57 PM
Ouch. Thanks for sharing.

NG VI
September 16, 2008, 01:31 PM
Good safety lesson, but I don't think that I would lump all IWB holsters in with a SmartCarry knockoff, and besides I don't carry anything cocked and locked, for the exact reason you discovered, every time I have tried it I can't stop checking to make sure it is still on safe so I eventually decock and carry DA.

You walked a quarter mile with a smashed testicle? Good job getting home and getting it taken care of.

chupacabrah
September 16, 2008, 01:49 PM
wow....

how is "everything" now?


I've never had a problem IWB with my DAO M&P... Never carried C&L, but I plan to. I think a quality holster is the main thing, and probably the major reason for this AD.

Or was it gun failure related at all?

loneviking
September 16, 2008, 02:02 PM
I've never had a problem IWB with my DAO M&P... Never carried C&L, but I plan to. I think a quality holster is the main thing, and probably the major reason for this AD.

Or was it gun failure related at all?


This was, IMO, totally holster related with the nylon material being too thin. Although this gun was C&L, there's not much difference between that and the numerous autos today that have no external safeties, but you just 'point and shoot'. Granted, the trigger pull is going to be heavier, but is it heavy enough?

loneviking
September 16, 2008, 02:04 PM
As for 'how are things now'? Well, I get the catheter out on Thursday and all signs point to success at keeping it out. Early signs strongly indicate that I also won't need to fill a prescription for Viagra any time soon! :D

Linda
September 16, 2008, 02:07 PM
Wow! :eek: Thank god you survived to tell about it. You will be in my prayers that you recover quickly.

Mainsail
September 16, 2008, 02:13 PM
pssst, open carry is legal in NV, deep concealment wasn't needed.

Glad to hear you survived!

NG VI
September 16, 2008, 02:14 PM
Good luck with your catheter removal, I'll keep you in my mind on thursday!

As far as heavier DA pull, some of the "DA Only" pistols like Glocks and maybe M&Ps actually have a very light and short trigger, nothing like an actual DAO. I would never carry one of those in a poor holster, they are not forgiving. However, I just got a Kydex pocket holster from FIST for my Glock 27, I feel totally comfortable with that, since the Kydex is NOT going to allow anything in there to play with the trigger.

luckyrxc
September 16, 2008, 02:54 PM
Thanks for sharing your experience. Best to a speedy and full recovery.

Phydeaux642
September 16, 2008, 03:11 PM
Wow! Glad you are going to make a full recovery.

I use the Smartcarry with no issues. My formula is:

Smartcarry + DAO 642 = No Problem.

texas bulldog
September 16, 2008, 03:14 PM
wow. i wish you the best in your recovery.

i do often carry in the front with a clipdraw, but it's on an SP101 that i have absolutely no fear of the extremely heavy trigger being pulled unintentionally. if i were carrying C&L, i think i'd need to reconsider my choice. thanks for the sobering input on the dangers of carrying without firmly securing the entire trigger guard area.

Armed 24/7
September 16, 2008, 03:18 PM
I was under the understanding that the FFDO's (Federal Flight Deck Officers) could ONLY carry their issued HK's?

REPOMAN
September 16, 2008, 03:49 PM
Thanks for the share..... My prayers for a speedy recovery....

Dope
September 16, 2008, 03:57 PM
Ouch. Glad to hear you will make it through "okay". I have been heavily researching smartcarry-style holsters and manual safety handguns are one of the first things I discounted due to exactly this problem. Way too easy for the safety to come off.

I've often wondered if you could somehow sew a real holster into the smartcarry "pocket". Something that covers the trigger. I would think this would keep it a little more stable too instead of bouncing around in the pocket.

Dope

NG VI
September 16, 2008, 04:17 PM
That isn't a bad idea, especially since you could get something like the FIST pocket holster, the kydex is incredibly thin, which you want, then maybe reheat the thumb-push and make it a little lower profile for your skins sake.

loneviking
September 16, 2008, 05:30 PM
I was under the understanding that the FFDO's (Federal Flight Deck Officers) could ONLY carry their issued HK's?

This guy is a commercial airline pilot. Both of the weapons mentioned are his own. I've never heard of an officially issued firearm to the pilots.

alistaire
September 16, 2008, 05:36 PM
Aren't you glad that was not a .45?

Purple95
September 16, 2008, 07:07 PM
loneviking,

Best wishes for a complete recovery. My thoughts and prayers will be with you.

I'm sure many are re-evaluating their carry practices and equipment after reading your story, I know I am.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Take care,
dan :)

AK103K
September 16, 2008, 07:32 PM
I've often wondered if you could somehow sew a real holster into the smartcarry "pocket".
Not to be a smart ass or to annoy the OP (glad your OK), but buy a "real" Smart Carry and I doubt you'll have any troubles. The one in the pic looks a little shaky, and on the cheaper side. Another $20 and you could have had a real one. The Smart Carry's are a bit heavier material wise, and there is little to no movement of the gun in it if its the right gun for the holster.

I've carried a 642, P230, or Seecamp (mostly the Seecamp lately) daily for the past two years. I work in construction, and I'm very physical at work, and jump in and out of all sorts of machines, into and out of trenches and structures, etc, so the holster and gun have gotten a good workout for both safety and security. I wear mine just slightly offset to the left, just below the belt.

Its kind of hard to see here, but the material is more or less a double thickness and the backing is waterproof. It really is too, cause I sweat like a pig and I've never had a drop of moisture on the inside of the pouch, even when I'm soaking wet on the 95*+, humid days we get here in the summer.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8df39b3127ccec37179fb8dbb00000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D480/ry%3D320/

loneviking
September 16, 2008, 08:00 PM
Aren't you glad that was not a .45?

Very glad!!:uhoh:

loneviking
September 16, 2008, 08:13 PM
Not to be a smart ass or to annoy the OP (glad your OK), but buy a "real" Smart Carry and I doubt you'll have any troubles. The one in the pic looks a little shaky, and on the cheaper side. Another $20 and you could have had a real one. The Smart Carry's are a bit heavier material wise, and there is little to no movement of the gun in it if its the right gun for the holster.



The problem with the real rig is the thickness. Don't you have to wear your pants one or two sizes larger to fit? The rig looks like wearing a diaper in reverse!

And you're right---someone may not have any problems. The point is that there are all sorts of holsters out there, including some 'knock-offs' of better known holsters. Holsters don't come with 'UL' testing labels or a 'Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval'---and I'm not saying they should.

But, there are a lot of new people getting carry permits and can you imagine how tough it is for someone who has only a few weeks experience with guns to decide which holster to buy? Which holster might be safe? What condition to carry the gun in?

Everyone, I hope, realizes that there is a broad spectrum of safety that ranges from ultra safe (a revolver on a OWB belt holster from a reputable maker) to what I had. It's 'caveat emptor', and the only way to decide is to ask around and see what everyone is doing---which may or not be safe.

And that's why I posted what happened to me...

AK103K
September 16, 2008, 08:54 PM
The thickness is what makes it safer and more comfortable.

I wear my normal pants (Carhartt's or similar) and size with the Smart Carry, and I usually also have a P229 in a Blade Tech IWB on at the same time too. I dont care what it looks like, hell, it could look like your Grandma's undies, I wouldnt care, no one sees it and it works, and it works very well too.

I think its great you posted and I'm glad you did. Its one of the best ways we can help each other, and perhaps save someone else the pain and suffering on the extreme end, and maybe just the embarrassment on the other if your holster, or whatever fails and you just get made.

The problem with holsters is, unless you have one to try first hand, you never know how well, if at all, its going to work for you personally. They often turn out not to be what you were expecting and come up short. Thats why we all have a holster box somewhere.

Like most other things, you do get what you pay for, and the deals (unless its a real deal on the real thing) and copies usually arent, especially when you compare them to the real thing. I learned a long time ago to buy the good name stuff that has a reputation for quality, that I shouldnt or couldnt really afford, right off. It was almost always worth the extra cost, even if I couldnt really afford it, and actually cheaper in the long run, because I didnt have to keep buying cheap stuff that kept failing. What happened to you should help reinforce that for others who think they cant afford the good stuff. You cant afford to buy the cheap stuff, and if you insist on doing so, you'll be lucky if its just your ego or feelings that suffers.

Like I said before, glad your OK, and I hope we all learned (or reinforced) something from your experience.

jlbraun
September 16, 2008, 09:10 PM
I can easily see how that Smartcarry knockoff could have cause the problem. Thin material doesn't protect the trigger from getting snagged. I have a real Smartcarry and when I first got it I tried mightily with an unloaded CZ P-01 in Condition Zero to manipulate the trigger through the material and couldn't do it.

With your holster, you were simply carrying Mexican style and didn't know it.

Another $30 spent would have saved you several thousands of dollars in medical bills.

tipoc
September 16, 2008, 09:28 PM
Well good to hear you are recovering well.

Part of the problem, as you've said, was the rig. The material allowed the gun to move around in the "holster" way too much and ,as you said, was too thin for what you were using it with.

The other problem was the decision to carry C&L deep cover with a rig that did not protect the safety from being swiped off. With that type holster movement causes the guns position to shift about and the chance the safety would be swiped off was high. When a person reaches for the gun in a hurry, jamming their hand beneath the tight waistband of their pants and groping for the grip, it's possible to accidentally touch the trigger or pull on it. With the safety swiped off it's likely an accident can occur. Had the safety been on the likelihood of snagging the hammer while drawing is also high.

Carrying C&L in a rig like this is not a choice I personally would make. Hammer down on a live round with a rig of this type seems to me safer.

I'm glad you posted this as matching a gun to carry options isn't always thought out as well as it seems you're likely to do next time.

For those unfamiliar with the gun here it is...

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg26-e.htm

It's actually a fairly large gun, lighter but a bit larger than a PPK.

tipoc

camslam
September 16, 2008, 09:32 PM
I have a real Smartcarry and when I first got it I tried mightily with an unloaded CZ P-01 in Condition Zero to manipulate the trigger through the material and couldn't do it.

I did the same thing when I got my Smartcarry. I carry a Glock 30 with one in the pipe and wanted to make sure that I wouldn't have that type of accident.

+1 on the thickness and quality being the issue. I absolutely love my Smartcarry, I don't ever give a second thought that the trigger is going to be pulled on my Glock, and I have been switching between the MTAC and Smartcarry for quite awhile now.

Both are excellent holsters for their designed purpose. The one thing I am extra careful with is when I am placing or removing the Smartcarry and I have learned to grip the whole gun through the Smartcarry as I remove or put it on for stability. I almost dropped it one time because I was trying to be careful and even though I'm sure the Glock wouldn't have fired, I would prefer to not be dropping my guns.

Get a genuine Smartcarry and I think it is a good way to go.

JMHO.

Good luck in the recovery. That story hurts mentally, emotionally, and for you I'm sure physically. :(

jt1
September 16, 2008, 09:32 PM
loneviking - Wow, Glad your ok, as the others have said, get the real thing, no mods needed, it works fine, mine does not position the muzzle into your package area, rather it goes over it...having said that I second the DAO carry mode for this configuration...

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/jt1jt1/PC150003.jpg

Funderb
September 16, 2008, 09:39 PM
glad to see you are okay, thats pretty awful.
but on the lighter side of things,
welcome to the league of peoples that are the da only ones professunal enuf to shoot a hole in something they didn't want to.

The worst happens to everyone that will admit that it has or their inherent disposition towards it!

Harvster
September 16, 2008, 10:04 PM
Glad you're all right and hopefully make a full recovery. Geez I sure wish the knot in my stomach would go away after reading this.

loneviking
September 16, 2008, 10:17 PM
Nice picture JT-1. A pair of small revolvers like that should be safe enough--but I just don't think I could ever carry there again!! :eek:

Loomis
September 16, 2008, 10:21 PM
yo, loneviking;

I will forever think of you as the man with the world's toughest $%^&*. Sheesh, point blank range no less!

Seriously though. you were amazingly lucky. And thanks for sharing with us your lesson learned the hard way, so that we don't have to learn it the way you did.

I think I'm going to start researching ankle holsters! An AD in the foot would be a walk in the park in comparisson.

CountGlockula
September 16, 2008, 10:40 PM
...I had three holes in my penis and a smashed left testicle...

:what:

My condolences buddy. Thanks for being brave in sharing the story!

Rokyudai
September 16, 2008, 10:59 PM
Loneviking,

I honestly had a tear build up in my left eye reading all that happened. Thanks for sharing this personal experience. Much respect and I will take your words into account at any chance a lesson can be taught, learned, and reinforced.


Rok

Mark Evel
September 17, 2008, 12:22 AM
Glad you're ok (okish, I guess).
Does your insurance cover the nurses', should I say, 'manipulation' of your wound?

HHM, HHHM, HHHHM?:neener:

Take care, man.

loneviking
September 17, 2008, 01:14 AM
Actually Mark, on the day I was discharged I did have a laugh at that. I had a very attractive middle aged nurse and a pretty nursing student both examining my---ahem---owie! They got to laughing too and said 'I bet you never thought you'd have two women inspecting you this closely, did you?'.

BTW, thanks to all for the wishes for a speedy recovery. I appreciate it and I know how very, very lucky I am.

jimbob86
September 17, 2008, 01:23 AM
"...I had three holes in my penis and a smashed left testicle... "

.....no powder burns?

loneviking
September 17, 2008, 01:36 AM
Oh yes, I had powder burns. Not serious, but definitely discolored and burned. I've had my injuries coated in triple antibiotic for the last week and those burns are mostly gone now.

kingpin008
September 17, 2008, 01:56 AM
Dude, forget Chuck Norris. Anyone who sustains four high-velocity holes to his Cash & Prizes and walks home to get himself medical attention is one tough S.O.B.

In all seriousness though, glad you came out of it as well as you did. The groin/upper thigh area is pretty vascular - you could have easily been killed, had the bullet taken a slightly different path. Luck smiles on us all, huh?

Hope your recovery continues to progress as well as it has so far!

XDKingslayer
September 17, 2008, 04:05 PM
Note to self:

Don't get cheap when buying things that hold loaded weapons in the vicinity of your weiner.

The Bushmaster
September 17, 2008, 05:05 PM
There is no such thing as an Accidental discharge (AD)...!!! There is, however, Neglegent discharges (ND)...Cause and effect ladies and gentlemen. Cause and effect (C&E)...

Example: I accidently left the valve open and it flooded the whole room. No! Reality. You screwed up and forgot to close the damned valve. Same thing with firearms. Some how you got the bugger hook or other items to engage the trigger and BANG...

loneviking
September 17, 2008, 06:07 PM
There is no such thing as an Accidental discharge (AD)...!!! There is, however, Neglegent discharges (ND)...Cause and effect ladies and gentlemen. Cause and effect (C&E)...


I strongly disagree. Negligence implies carelessness, a lack of attention to the details safe gun handling.

AD--is exactly that, an accident. Someone did everything right...they treated the gun as if it were loaded; they knew where the muzzle was pointed; they were sure of their target and backstop; they didn't touch the trigger until on target---and yet accidents can still happen. It might be a broken extractor bolt, it might be a faulty holster, but it's an accident not negligence.

AK103K
September 17, 2008, 06:39 PM
The whole AD vs ND thing is like worrying if its a mag or a clip. Who cares.

While it did happen (and no offense there loneviking, but better you than me. :) ), there was a lesson learned (I'm pretty sure there was anyway), and one to be learned if your paying attention. I'm sure we all are doing some double checking, Smart Carry or not.

Hey loneviking, just as a FYI, was there a name on that pouch/holster? Just in case somebody were to come across it at a gun show or on line.

tipoc
September 17, 2008, 07:09 PM
There are ADs and I think this was one.

It was a mistake, IMHO, to place a C&L gun into this type rig. Doing that poses it's own problems when the safety rubs off which it's about bound to do. But it was the thinness of the rig and it's construction and material, that caused the gun to discharge when loneviking bent down. There was no direct negligence.


Example: I accidently left the valve open and it flooded the whole room. No! Reality. You screwed up and forgot to close the damned valve.

That's not what happened here though. More like a fella changed the valve but unknowingly put in a faulty washer. He checked the operation. It worked but after he walks away it fails. You can say he never shoulda bought that brand washer or used it the way he did, well now he knows. But it was an accident and we all now know to avoid that brand washer. :)

tipoc

orionengnr
September 17, 2008, 07:46 PM
The problem with the real rig is the thickness. Don't you have to wear your pants one or two sizes larger to fit? The rig looks like wearing a diaper in reverse!

I have owned both the (black nylon) knock-offs and the (denim) real thing.

I found that the nylon one uses an elastic that quickly stretches out. While it may work fine with a P3AT or a 642, it will not reliably accomodate a heavier pistol (in my case, Glock 23 and Taurus 441).

The actual Smart Carry uses higher quality materials and will both protect your trigger better and maintain the position of the firearm better. (Note--a strategically placed safety pin will help with position issues. The instructions for the Smart Carry explain this--pm me if you like.)

The difference in thickness between the real thing and the knock-off is a non-issue, unless you wear spandex. If that is the case, the Smart Carry concept is not for you....and please don't post pictures :)

skinewmexico
September 17, 2008, 08:01 PM
Nice of everyone to show up after the barn burned down just to tell the OP he had a fire. Geez.

the naked prophet
September 17, 2008, 08:01 PM
I don't understand in what position you were wearing the SmartCarry knockoff (SCKO)? If I squat down or sit down, the gun lies along my leg, as if I had laid it on my lap. The muzzle is at about the same level as my genitals, and if it were to go off either while standing up or while squatting, it would completely miss my important bits.

It seems you were wearing it too high. I'm not blaming you, I'm just comparing your injuries with my SmartCarry. I would not carry in a SC if it ever pointed at my genitals - I can't contort myself so that it does, and the only way I can see that it might possibly is if you were wearing it very high and to the right, which seemed very uncomfortable when I was trying different positions.

Also, the SmartCarry website recommends using safety pins to modify the size of the holster area to prevent movement of the gun. It works quite well. That might have prevented the gun from moving so much and taking off the safety... that said, I do only carry a revolver in mine.

Loomis
September 17, 2008, 08:03 PM
Geeze bushmaster, you sure picked the wrong thread to make that tired old argument. 99% of the time you are absolutely right. But you may have walked right into that other 1% and made an * of yourself. Good job.

Lonestar49
September 17, 2008, 09:04 PM
...

First, and foremost, glad you're OK..

Well, it's the little mistakes that can add-up quickly to the big mistake, and I know ya know this..

FWIW, I too had to choose a holster for my SA EMP 1911 SAO 9mm (9+1) for either left/cross draw/pocket concealment or heavy-cant cross draw IWB 11 o:clock position, either way, with warm temps, T-shirt hanging out, depending on what I'm wearing.

Works great and no problems with SAO locked and cocked for either position as I found for both comfort, good trigger guard, and fast-draw means, yet full protection from lent, being a closed-end holster IWB clip-on size 1 from *Uncle Mike's.. (lightweight and flexible) yet one's body or pocket, hold the gun in tight..

It also allows one to easily, quickly, move holster and gun, to any position that one finds necessary for comfort and concealment..

*Sometimes, less is more.. depending on the individual.

Continued safe flying and ccw'ing with a, "the_right", holster for the job.


My best,


Ls

Erik
September 17, 2008, 09:32 PM
Glad you're OK and thank you for contributing your experience so others may learn.

---

As for your commercial airline pilot friend, it sounds like he might either not be a commercial airline pilot carrying "in aircraft," might be a TSA FFDO carrying something else some other way than you described, or... maybe something else.

http://www.tsa.gov/lawenforcement/programs/ffdo.shtm

Borch
September 17, 2008, 11:27 PM
Hell of a story. Glad to hear you'll still be fully functional.

Personally, I have never considered Smart Carry or Thunderwear as an option, it just never looked very comfortable. Now I definately won't ever consider it as an option. There are plenty of other methods of concealment that work just fine for my purposes and won't put me in a position to blow my nuts off.

camslam
September 17, 2008, 11:44 PM
Now I definately won't ever consider it as an option. There are plenty of other methods of concealment that work just fine for my purposes and won't put me in a position to blow my nuts off.

If you have other methods of carrying that work for you, congrats and enjoy.

I would be interested if ANYONE has experience or knows of someone that had either an AD or ND while using an actual Smartcarry?

I've never come across one, but I would imagine they are out there.

HammerBite
September 18, 2008, 03:45 AM
I don't understand in what position you were wearing the SmartCarry knockoff (SCKO)? If I squat down or sit down, the gun lies along my leg, as if I had laid it on my lap. The muzzle is at about the same level as my genitals, and if it were to go off either while standing up or while squatting, it would completely miss my important bits.
Would it completely miss the femoral artery?

ColinthePilot
September 18, 2008, 05:30 AM
Glad you're ok. Its rare to hear about a true AD, so thanks for the story. I was always wary of the Smartcarry system, as its a little too close to some other equipment that I value pretty highly. I carry a Sig P6 IWB in an Uncle Mike's Sidekick, but its decocked, there is no safety, but the DA trigger is pretty heavy, nothing is making its way into the trigger guard through the holster, and i carry either small of back or at the 3 o'clock position. I have plenty of butt to spare, and on the hip, the path of a bullet is pretty clear.

flynlr
September 18, 2008, 07:03 AM
I guess I am glad I use the "REAL " smart carry if I had shot 3 holes into a strategic area, i would not have any more strategic area.

mr.72
September 18, 2008, 11:06 AM
FWIW, the "thinness" of the knock-off SC is not a benefit. It's the thickness of the GUN that gets in the way, the SC is not an important factor. Also, you don't have to get bigger jeans or pants to fit the SC unless you wear skin-tight "girl jeans" (like, if you are a girl, for example), but you do have to choose pants that have a high waist if you intend to carry it "right" as so many people on this forum are prone to point out (entire gun below the belt line). This works fine for the Dockers and relaxed-fit crowd but doesn't work for me with a single pair of pants I own. YMMV.

XDKingslayer
September 18, 2008, 11:13 AM
Definately not an ND.

The only thing he did wrong was buy a cheap holster. Hardly negligent.

Not an AD either. I'll have to call this one an "Unintentional Discharge". I could have went for "premature" but no reason to rub salt on the wound.

loneviking
September 18, 2008, 11:14 AM
Naked Prophet wrote:
I don't understand in what position you were wearing the SmartCarry knockoff (SCKO)? If I squat down or sit down, the gun lies along my leg, as if I had laid it on my lap. The muzzle is at about the same level as my genitals, and if it were to go off either while standing up or while squatting, it would completely miss my important bits.

It seems you were wearing it too high. I'm not blaming you, I'm just comparing your injuries with my SmartCarry. I would not carry in a SC if it ever pointed at my genitals - I can't contort myself so that it does, and the only way I can see that it might possibly is if you were wearing it very high and to the right, which seemed very uncomfortable when I was trying different positions.

This video link is a good one to show how I was carrying. Notice that the guy in the video is carrying a Glock, midline to the body, with the butt of the gun under his belt. For me, being long waisted, I can get a four or five inch gun tucked in between my belt and the top of the genitals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkEfZUwzLAs

Notice the wide stance that the guy takes when sitting down or squatting. His legs are very wide apart and that's exactly the position I was in when the gun went off. Notice also the bunching of the pant material. The guy in the video also posted this one, which I wish I would have noticed before I bought the knock-off rig, as you can feel and obviously manipulate the trigger through the knock off rig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecWvvIdosOc

The seller of the knockoff was Adventure Supply. The website that they have has been hacked and not put back up. Apparently, they make a lot of knock-off copies of stuff from Indiana Jones (such as Fedoras/Holsters) and the Laura Croft series.

The last link I posted relating to trigger safety is a 'must see' before you buy any sort of knock-off copy of a Smart Carry rig!

Dain Bramage
September 18, 2008, 11:27 AM
Unlike Bam-Bam 31, please don't post pictures of your injuries. :D

krs
September 18, 2008, 01:26 PM
I don't understand a reason to carry a pistol that will fire it's first round double action cocked and locked.

What possible reason is there for doing that when the CZ82 can be carried hammer down, safety off while still being ready to fire with a pull on the trigger.

This unfortunate occurance is the result of a very poor bit of gun handling and could as easily have happened with the patented Smart carry holster, IMO.

rdrancher
September 18, 2008, 01:48 PM
kingpin008

Dude, forget Chuck Norris. Anyone who sustains four high-velocity holes to his Cash & Prizes and walks home to get himself medical attention is one tough S.O.B.

THAT is the funniest line ever on THR...and I mean EVER! SERIOUS LOL :D

rd

CJ
September 18, 2008, 02:18 PM
Glad you'll be ok, and thanks for sharing. Hopefully it will be a learning experience for many, and might be saving someone else from a similar or worse incident.

I'll be sure to keep heavy DAO in my Smartcarry from now on!

rmarcustrucker
September 18, 2008, 03:16 PM
Glad your ok. I guess another reason that i've gotten into the habit of sewing plastic pieces on inside of my original smart carry units to cover front and back trigger area. I've also been using my revolver most of the time because it's so darn comfortable to carry, it's a .357 and has the CT laser grips. That heavy trigger is all the safety it needs.
I feel safe with Glock 27 , but I don't carry it as long, to thick with CT laser grips and not as comfortable to wear for long periods.

The picture is of the inside of my holster the white pieces are from the milk plastic milk carton sewed in. I'm always looking to be safer then sorry, thanks for sharing your unfortunate accident, it's convinced me to keep sewing those plastic pieces. :uhoh:

loneviking
September 18, 2008, 07:12 PM
The picture is of the inside of my holster the white pieces are from the milk plastic milk carton sewed in. I'm always looking to be safer then sorry, thanks for sharing your unfortunate accident, it's convinced me to keep sewing those plastic pieces.

Thanks for sharing that tip and proving that Yankee ingenuity is alive and well!!

volfandan
September 18, 2008, 11:54 PM
I agree with Kingpin008.

I bet Chuck Norris wears LONEVIKING pajamas.

Seriously though, LV.....glad you lived to tell about it, and best wishes on a speedy recovery. Also, don't get down by some of the posters bashing or over-analyzing your situation. It can happen to anyone, and it takes a real man of character to post on the web when it happens to him.

Thanks for sharing, and God bless.

mfree
September 19, 2008, 10:31 AM
AD....ND... UD... no. I think we should call this a new category.

Holster malfunction.

ilcylic
September 19, 2008, 11:01 AM
Holy Ow, guy. Glad to hear you came out of it as unscathed as you did. Still, definitely not on my list of things to do.

Sean Dempsey
September 19, 2008, 11:43 PM
So thats what they mean by cocked and locked.

loneviking
September 20, 2008, 01:14 AM
I don't understand a reason to carry a pistol that will fire it's first round double action cocked and locked.

What possible reason is there for doing that when the CZ82 can be carried hammer down, safety off while still being ready to fire with a pull on the trigger.


In brief, two reasons---speed and accuracy.

In a gunfight with a deep concealment rig like this, you're going to be behind the ball. The BG is already going to have a gun out and may be looking at your or have you in their peripheral vision. You now have to pull the gun out of concealment and your chances of doing that unobserved are not good. You also will have to sweep the gun toward the target, stop that movement/line up on the target and then pull the trigger.

In a gun or fist fight, the old rule is that 'whoever connects first is likely to win'. When that gun comes out, you'd better have it ready to go---and not have to rack the slide.

The second reason is tied into this and answers the question of 'why not DAO'? The DA pull is harder (often much harder) which, under stress, can cause you to jerk on the trigger trying to force the gun to fire. That throws your aim off. Now, not only are you slow getting your gun into play (BG already has his out), you've just missed your first shot giving the bad guy an opportunity to shoot you!

conw
September 20, 2008, 03:07 AM
Man, I am so so sorry this happened to you.

As a fellow man I can really empathize, in fact to an unpleasant degree, with your plight.

It would be easy to say something witty (by my standards anyway), but I will just let this one go and leave you with my wishes for a speedy recovery.

:(

lookn4varmints
September 20, 2008, 10:13 AM
disregard....

AK103K
September 20, 2008, 10:35 AM
The second reason is tied into this and answers the question of 'why not DAO'? The DA pull is harder (often much harder) which, under stress, can cause you to jerk on the trigger trying to force the gun to fire. That throws your aim off. Now, not only are you slow getting your gun into play (BG already has his out), you've just missed your first shot giving the bad guy an opportunity to shoot you!
The only reason this would be, is because you havent practiced to the level of it not being an issue, and in reality, that doesnt take very much practice.

This is of course assuming you are carrying a pistol that has a reasonable DA trigger, which majority of "commercial" guns do. Some surplus military guns have terrible DA triggers, and need work prior to use.

I carry DA pistols and have never had a problem. In fact, my DA groups are usually tighter than my SA groups, so the trigger isnt usually the issue.

Its no slower to get into action, and there are no safeties to worry about being still on (or off at the wrong time) and all you do is shoot like you normally would. If all things go like they do in practice (allowing for Murphy of course :) ), the bad guy is going to be hit, and multiple times if I have my way.

wuchak
September 20, 2008, 10:47 AM
He should have bought as real Smartcarry. I have tried and cannot pull the trigger on my P-3AST through the Smartcarry fabric no matter what I do.

Bad choice of condition to carry that gun in. He should have decocked it and carried in DA mode.

He also had to have been wearing it too high to get the injury he did. My P-3AT covers but never points at my genitals, but then I wear it as direct by Smartcarry.

In a gunfight with a deep concealment rig like this, you're going to be behind the ball.

Nope. Worn properly the Smartcarry is a low appendix position. The appendix position is the fastest to get on target because neither your arm nor your gun have to move as far. It also lets you be ready for the draw with your hands in a natural position. The draw from the Smartcarry is very easy. Much more so than drawing from IWB at 3:15 with a shirt and jacket on.

novaDAK
September 20, 2008, 12:13 PM
bought a CZ 82 which is a Makarov design
actually the CZ82 is completely unrelated to a Makarov pistol. Only thing they have in common is caliber.

BReilley
September 20, 2008, 03:32 PM
Best wishes for total recovery, and thanks for sharing.

ron7786
September 21, 2008, 02:04 AM
I know your buddy isn't the main point of your post, but you really need to have a talk with him. If he is an airline pilot, he is only authorized to carry if he is an FFDO. If he is an FFDO, there is only one pistol and one way to carry it. Anything else is a felony. I only point this out two you because I am one as well and wouldn't want to see someone sacrafice a career in an economic climate that is seeing a lot of us pilots becoming unemployed. Also, if your mistaken in your info, he may want to correct you.

plexreticle
September 21, 2008, 02:30 AM
Sorry to sound like a hard ass but it wasn't the holsters fault in my opinion

Conceal carry of a double action pistol cocked and locked is circumventing one of the basic safety features of the gun.

If you can't shoot it double action then your need more range time or a different gun.

I hope you have a speedy recovery.

NG VI
September 23, 2008, 09:27 AM
How is your recovery coming?

loneviking
September 23, 2008, 09:42 AM
How is your recovery coming?


Quite good. I'm back at work and with a bit of luck, I'll be out cutting some firewood on my days off this week. I have a handful of absorbable sutures still around, busy being absorbed but nothing that slows me down. Thanks for asking!

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 23, 2008, 09:47 AM
Wowsa! :eek: Glad you are OK. I'm very interested in this subject as I carry in Smart Carry every day. My thoughts on the subject:

1. Glad you kept your frank & beans, and that you've already had your kids! :)
2. I too worry about this because with smart carry, sometimes the gun is pointed at the family jewels, and sometimes at the femoral. Both are very very bad in the even of AD/ND. So extraordinary care must be taken with this type of carry.
3. I'm surprised that even with the nylon holster that the trigger was able to be pulled - in fact, to have both the safety disengage AND the trigger pulled has got to be a one in a million bad luck incident.
4. Having said that, I personally would NEVER (and now you won't either) carry a gun "cocked & locked" in a smart carry rig. That that was indeed your first and major mistake. There's just too much too risk down there - esp. for me, with no kids yet. :) I carry a Kahr which has a long and medium-heavy trigger pull, even though it's "pre-sprung" a bit.
5. The actual Smart Carry rig, being of a heavy denim, does indeed ofter a stiffness around the gun & trigger guard that would certainly exceed that of the nylon thing you bought. So it's a bit safer.
6. I can't imagine carrying a double-stack gun in that kind of rig. A small kahr or 3" 1911 work great however.
7. Again, glad you can be an example to others without too terrible an outcome. Thank goodness for that surgeon and the mediflight option.

Conceal carry of a double action pistol cocked and locked is circumventing one of the basic safety features of the gun.

Huh? How do you figure? To carry an HK or CZ or Taurus or one of the new Springfield XDs, or any other number of handguns which have BOTH a C&L ability and a DA trigger, in the C&L mode, is NOT "circumventing a safety feature" at all - it is USING a safety feature (the manual safety) to carry the gun in one way in which it was INTENDED to be carried. How is carrying an H&K cocked and locked any less safe than carrying a 1911 C&L? :scrutiny: I mean, I agree that you shouldn't carry C&L in a Smart Carry type rig, as I said above, but your blanket statement was stated as covering any type of concealed carry, including holster carry, where the holster completely and safely covers the trigger guard.

peaceful99
September 23, 2008, 10:18 AM
How is your recovery coming?
Quite good. I'm back at work and with a bit of luck, I'll be out cutting some firewood on my days off this week. I have a handful of absorbable sutures still around, busy being absorbed but nothing that slows me down. Thanks for asking!

Glad to hear that your recovery is going well. Only one question here. What kind of ammo were you carrying, JHP or Ball? :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I suspect JHP would have done severe damage, possibly irreparable. In a sense, you are a very lucky man. You have my sincere wishes for a complete recovery.

Double Naught Spy
September 23, 2008, 10:57 AM
Quite good. I'm back at work and with a bit of luck, I'll be out cutting some firewood on my days off this week. I have a handful of absorbable sutures still around, busy being absorbed but nothing that slows me down. Thanks for asking!

Good, but how is the little doggie?

the naked prophet
September 23, 2008, 01:10 PM
2. I too worry about this because with smart carry, sometimes the gun is pointed at the family jewels, and sometimes at the femoral. Both are very very bad in the even of AD/ND. So extraordinary care must be taken with this type of carry.

I have to defend the SmartCarry here. At no time does my SmartCarry point at either my genitals or at my femoral artery. At worst, I may get a graze and powder burns.

When standing, it is pointing down along my left leg and slightly outward away from my body (my pants pull the grip in closer to my body, which pushes the barrel outwards a bit), when sitting, it is basically in my lap, pointing forward and across my left leg. When squatting, there is a time during the downward movement where it points at my knee, but after that it points at the ground.

A SmartCarry takes some time before you figure out where to wear it for maximum comfort. Like any holster, you should practice extensively with an unloaded gun before you wear it "for real." I always wear a holster with the empty gun for a few days around the house before wearing it loaded.

I'm not saying the discharge was his fault, I'm just saying that we can learn from his experience that (in addition to not buying less expensive knockoff holsters) we need to be sure we have tested our equipment before we use it.

springmom
September 23, 2008, 02:16 PM
Holy smokes. :what::what::what: I'm not going to wade through the whole thread, but just want to say I'm glad you're ok. You really did manage the trifecta of bad luck with this one.

I never could get the Smart Carry system to work for me. And after reading this, I can tell you for sure that Archerandshooter won't be wearing one again either.... I think it will disappear from his dresser while he's elk hunting. (Darn, hon, must have gotten thrown out with all the storm debris!...) :neener:

Springmom

seeker_two
September 23, 2008, 04:06 PM
Glad to hear that your recovery is going well. Only one question here. What kind of ammo were you carrying, JHP or Ball?

Was that really necessary?.... :D

loneviking
September 23, 2008, 07:01 PM
PremiumSauces:
4. Having said that, I personally would NEVER (and now you won't either) carry a gun "cocked & locked" in a smart carry rig. That that was indeed your first and major mistake. There's just too much too risk down there - esp. for me, with no kids yet. I carry a Kahr which has a long and medium-heavy trigger pull, even though it's "pre-sprung" a bit.


I'm glad you won't carry this way, but the folks at the real SmartCarry site have an entire page showing that this is done safely with a Smart Carry rig.

I really like the ingenious idea one of our posters had of cutting out plastic inserts from milk cartons and then sewing/gluing them into the pocket of the SmartCarry rig. That would make things a bit safer!

loneviking
September 23, 2008, 07:04 PM
Glad to hear that your recovery is going well. Only one question here. What kind of ammo were you carrying, JHP or Ball?

Seriously though, I suspect JHP would have done severe damage, possibly irreparable. In a sense, you are a very lucky man. You have my sincere wishes for a complete recovery.

You're a sick puppy!---But I like that! :D

Seriously, the round was a 95gr. Hornady XTP---which fragmented as it was supposed to do and that's how I wound up with four holes in me!

loneviking
September 23, 2008, 07:06 PM
Good, but how is the little doggie?

Recovering nicely and all signs point to a full recovery! The little doggie is almost back to full speed and there ain't no leash attached!

loneviking
September 23, 2008, 07:13 PM
I have to defend the SmartCarry here. At no time does my SmartCarry point at either my genitals or at my femoral artery. At worst, I may get a graze and powder burns.



Naked Prophet, I'd love to see a video of that. I've heard others make that claim and yet every video I see shows the gun pointing at one of those two vital areas. You'd have to have the barrel of the gun rocked back and pointing out to do what you've described. I've never seen a video where somebody has accomplished this.

Further, let me ask this---if this rig is this much trouble and takes that much practice to wear 'correctly' or 'safely', is it worth it? I mean, you can't figure out how to wear the dang thing from watching the videos on U-Tube or the website! I posted a link to a video from You-Tube showing how the rig is supposed to be worn and yet you (and others) say 'nope, that's not the way it's supposed to be done'. Seems to me to be more trouble than it's worth...

loneviking
September 23, 2008, 07:16 PM
I never could get the Smart Carry system to work for me. And after reading this, I can tell you for sure that Archerandshooter won't be wearing one again either.... I think it will disappear from his dresser while he's elk hunting. (Darn, hon, must have gotten thrown out with all the storm debris!...)




Oh that ol' thing! Some mouse chewed it all to pieces, pooped and peed all in it and I had to throw it out! :D:what:

Butter
September 23, 2008, 07:36 PM
Dang!!!!!! Just read through the thread and I think every male who has read it did a Michael Jackson to check if the Olsen Twins were still swinging in the breeze---where they're supposed to be.

Dang! Glad your safe and thanks for sharing.

AK103K
September 23, 2008, 07:38 PM
I'm glad you won't carry this way, but the folks at the real SmartCarry site have an entire page showing that this is done safely with a Smart Carry rig.
The page you refer to is 1911 specific, which is a little different than other guns that "may" carry in this same "sort of" condition.

1911's have multiple safeties, and are generally safe, even with the thumb safety off. You'd have to get the thumb safety off, then depress the grip safety while pulling the trigger. I'm not saying this cant happen (I've had a number of thumb safeties come off on 1911's while in standard holsters), but the odds go up considerably that they wont.

Double Naught Spy
September 23, 2008, 09:43 PM
:Recovering nicely and all signs point to a full recovery! The little doggie is almost back to full speed and there ain't no leash attached!

Um okay, but I was referring to the little Schnauzer with the stickers. I figured he had to be pretty bad off emotionally and I only asked because you said you were doing pretty good already.

Imagine... your owner bends down to render aid to you and then his pants explode and he goes down. There is blood, noise, and the owner is in pain. Then all the people come and take the owner away. That is a lot for a little dog to try to comprehend. :D

loneviking
September 23, 2008, 11:42 PM
The page you refer to is 1911 specific, which is a little different than other guns that "may" carry in this same "sort of" condition.

1911's have multiple safeties, and are generally safe, even with the thumb safety off. You'd have to get the thumb safety off, then depress the grip safety while pulling the trigger. I'm not saying this cant happen (I've had a number of thumb safeties come off on 1911's while in standard holsters), but the odds go up considerably that they wont.


The 1911 is used as an example, and much of the write up is about the 1911, but don't tell me that the 1911 is the only gun mentioned. Here's the link:

http://www.smartcarry.com/cocklock.htm

And note, for example, this sentence:
A 1911 in Condition One is comparable to a Glock, which is always in a semi-cocked condition when a round is in the chamber anyway, and the initial pull of the "small trigger" performs the same function as the thumb safety of a 1911. Endquote---

Did you read that!?? Did you see the picture of the Glock 36 and the Kimber RCP2? What is in the article is that there are other semi-autos that are instantly available to fire, just as the 1911, although using different systems. All of these can be carried in CONDITION ONE.....and my CZ 82 is one of those guns.

Again, my AD was not from an actual Smart Carry rig, and I don't mean to badmouth their product--it may be safe. As I've said before, I started this thread to get folks to think about:

1. What they are carrying---revolver, or semi-auto and how ready the weapon is to fire.

2. What they are carrying the weapon in---how safe is the holster, can the holster material be 'flexed' enough to cause the trigger to go off? Is the trigger guard covered?

These are really important issues as there are a lot of folks who are new to guns and to carrying guns. There is no 'UL' or 'Consumer Reports' for holsters---the info comes from those of use who use the products. I would bet there are knock off copies of the Crossbreed Supertuck, just as there are for the Smart Carry and the 'Clip' type IWB systems. A handful of these copies may be good, many may be dangerous.

loneviking
September 23, 2008, 11:47 PM
Um okay, but I was referring to the little Schnauzer with the stickers. I figured he had to be pretty bad off emotionally and I only asked because you said you were doing pretty good already.

Imagine... your owner bends down to render aid to you and then his pants explode and he goes down. There is blood, noise, and the owner is in pain. Then all the people come and take the owner away. That is a lot for a little dog to try to comprehend.

Now I'm ROFLMAO! The little dog is a grumpy, stubborn little Schauzer who is 10 years old and couldn't give a hoot once it gets out of the way! She was running around loose while the LEO's were checking things out, happily chasing rodents and rabbits.

What was funny was the Doberman went nuts when the gun went off. The Dobie thinks that a gun going off means there's a bird going down somewhere and that she needs to go get the bird and bring it back! So, off she goes, bounding over the sagebrush looking for a non-existent bird. :neener:

krs
September 24, 2008, 12:51 PM
Did you read that!?? Did you see the picture of the Glock 36 and the Kimber RCP2? What is in the article is that there are other semi-autos that are instantly available to fire, just as the 1911, although using different systems. All of these can be carried in CONDITION ONE.....and my CZ 82 is one of those guns.


NO, your CZ-82 is NOT one of those ...with the thumb safety off a 1911 requires two separate opposing pressures to fire the pistol - in effect the safety is NOT off by virtue of the grip safety redundancy. The Glock et al ALSO require two separate pressures (actually three) in the same direction to fire the pistol. The XD combines the two types of safeties to create perhaps the safest form of 'cocked and not locked'.

With the thumb safety off your CZ requires but one pressure, a relatively light one at that, to fire the pistol. If there was any possibility of the thumb safety of the CZ being accidently removed, and there clearly was, it should not be carried in a manner that could allow that occurence .... particularly when a DA alternative exists. Very bad decision or choice of arm.

Your cute lecture recited above about speed and disruption of aim in DA with a CZ-82 notwithstanding, your accident is a case of negligent firearm handling by you. As said above if you are not competent to fire an accurate shot DA with the pistol you could have carried in relative safety then you ought to have practiced until you had attained the competency to do so before carrying the pistol, or break out some money for another type of pistol.

This flippant thread placing the blame for your stupidity on a holster or God's will or a poor Schnauzer dog pisses me off. You are part of the reason for the perception that allowing people to carry firearms for their own protection is a dangerous and ill advised allowance. Your carefully recited Jeff Cooper maxims about speed in a gunfight only make the case for those who would prevent such legislative allowance in places where it does not yet exist and could argue against the continuance of the 'allowed' right to carry in those that do.

Carrying a CZ-82 cocked and locked is idiocy and where idiocy and firearms exist there is no safe holster, there is no safe combination, there is no safe practice. There is only one more dope with a gun sappily giving us all a bad name.

mr.72
September 24, 2008, 01:44 PM
Kind of harsh, krs. But I agree.

Personally, I think carrying any gun with a hammer or striker under spring tension sufficient to fire the cartridge is a mistake if you are carrying concealed. Concealment methods for handguns present far too many chances for an inadvertent discharge.

I don't think CC of a 1911 condition 1 in a Smartcarry is much better than the CZ-82. Regardless of how well made the Smartcarry is, it has way too much opportunity to interact with the safeties of the gun, and bending over your gut, belt, waist band, etc. may depress the grip safety, so having a short, light trigger to fire SA is an accident waiting to happen IMHO. Those short, light 1911 triggers are fine for the range but I don't advocate them for concealed carry.

Contrary to popular opinion, I think a DAO revolver or striker-fired auto is the only really safe, acceptable way to carry in a Smartcarry. IWB with a rigid trigger protection is better, but still not perfect. In particular I think for IWB a grip safety is very easily defeated when you are sitting or bending.

So for me it's DAO, no exposed hammers, no safeties. I think the manual safeties give a false sense of security. Better, IMHO, to assume that protecting the trigger is the only viable safety, and therefore select a firearm that reduces the likelihood of inadvertent trigger pull is the best choice.

IMHO, and I am a gun-culture non-conformist. So flame away.

AK103K
September 24, 2008, 07:17 PM
Did you read that!??
I did, and KRS answered the specifics as well as I could.

Fenris
November 19, 2008, 01:02 AM
Attention has been focussed on the trigger and how the light weight fabric allowed the trigger to be accidentally manipulated. Even with light fabric this would appear difficult to me to accomplish with just folds in pants fabric from squatting.

I would like to humbly suggest an alternative explanation.

When a person squats down the thighs are moving up towards the body, or more correctly the body is lowering down toward the thighs. Not only do you have muscles at work here but also gravity. The potential forces and pressures can be rather high.

If a fold in the fabric of your pants happened to snag behind the cocked hammer while you were squatting down it could have squeezed the hammer with a great deal of force. Could pressure have been enough to cause the hammer to release and fire? With the safety on? With the safety off? I have no experience with CZ's. And even if this would not normally be possible, if there were a malfunction in the gun perhaps it would be possible.

Sigs are very reliable guns, but I would like to direct your attention to a Youtube video of a Sig with a very serious problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtB2UjsJXV4

Could this have happened to your gun with a high pressure squeeze, maybe both squeezing and lifting up?

I bring this up because you might want to carefully check (or have checked) your gun to assure it is working properly.

On the other hand, I may be completely wrong. I often am. Just ask my wife. :rolleyes:

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 11, 2008, 07:43 PM
Good, but how is the little doggie?

Recovering nicely and all signs point to a full recovery! The little doggie is almost back to full speed and there ain't no leash attached!

Um okay, but I was referring to the little Schnauzer with the stickers. I figured he had to be pretty bad off emotionally and I only asked because you said you were doing pretty good already.

Imagine... your owner bends down to render aid to you and then his pants explode and he goes down. There is blood, noise, and the owner is in pain. Then all the people come and take the owner away. That is a lot for a little dog to try to comprehend.
Now I'm ROFLMAO! The little dog is a grumpy, stubborn little Schauzer who is 10 years old and couldn't give a hoot once it gets out of the way! She was running around loose while the LEO's were checking things out, happily chasing rodents and rabbits

That does indeed give new meaning to "So how's your Schnauzer since the accident"! :D

What was funny was the Doberman went nuts when the gun went off.

You don't say! :D

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