[Carl Levitian]

I'm sure you're all seen them. The posts on "What knife should I use for self defense?" They seem to come up with the regularity of the sun rising in the east.

Without fail, there will be a bushel basket of replies and recomendations of Emerson this, or Benchmade that. Maybe the odd Syderco here and there.

But what is a self defense knife?

I've always thought the idea and the item pretty far down the list of rules of knife fighting. The way I always thought it was sort of like rules number 1 through4.

Rule 1 of knife defense- Bring a gun.

Rule 2- Don't be there.

Rule 3- Have a big stick if your there by accident.

Rule 4- If you absolutly have to use a knife, and it's the only thing you have at hand, don't let the bad guy see it till he's bleeding. Then run like h--l.

Rule 5- See above, sneaky dirty underhanded action is good. The sneakier and more underhanded the better. Then run like h--l.

I've thought alot about this, and reflected back on some of my mentors advise. It seems like the best defense knife may be some little thing that is really small enough to conceal in a closed fist, or behind a wrist held up agaist the arm. Something they will never see comming. We're just wanting to get away from the trouble, not storming the holy land trying to drive out the turks.

The human body has not changed much in 10,000 years, and motor tendons, vital arteries, nerve centers, all are quite shallow. As a rule, pain receptors are more numerous near the surface than in deep.

I guess what got me rethinking the subject, was we visited the International Spy Museum in downtown Washington D.C. recently. One display case held a large amount of very small weapons, mostly knife type, that were designed to be deeply concealed, but effective if stuck or slashed in the right place. It made me think of a man I knew many years ago, who had spent a lifetime in the clandetine world. He'd worked with some of the OSS and British SOE types durring the war, and was a little scary with a pen knife or old Christy knife.

Now we have Spyderco lady bugs, Buck Hartsooks, and lots of other mini knives that are very small, yet very easy to open/draw and kept concealed till the second you have an opening to strike. I'd have to imagine even a Gerber micro LST can be extremly distracting if stuck in one's throat. Then obey rule 4.

I'm sure Jack Baur is very exiting to watch on the telly, but for the real life most of lead in quiet desparation, I wonder if a nice little innocent looking locking penknife or such would be a better pick than something that looks like what the guys in "The Unit" are dropping into Afganistan with. I am reminded of a true story about an SOE guy I read about years ago.

This one operative got snagged by the Germans, and he was in this office with a Gestapo officer and a husky guard who was inflicting some punches on him. After getting beat up a bit, he appears to break down sobbing, saying they didn't tell his it would be like this, he'll talk, just get him a glass of water. Really wusses out big time. The officer is dumb enough to send the guard out for a glass of water, where upon the SOE guy used a concealed lapel dagger to injure the officer enough to get a hold of his Walther and shoot him and the returning guard. He made a good escape out the window and down a fire escape. Got clean away.

All because of a inch and a half blade nobody knew about.

Food for thought.

After all, isn't the real weapon between our ears?

[HoosierQ]

Excellent thoughts. Tactical knives (which of course are really cool) are rope cutting, can opening, crate prying, shelter building, maybe even spear fashioning survival tools. Maybe handy in real for sure hand to hand combat in a theater of war if things got really bad. But I like what this says about the world that all of us not serving currently in a theater of war live in.

Good post. Thanks.

[hso]

After all, isn't the real weapon between our ears?

You'd hope.;)

[Todd A]

Good post Carl.

If I ever have a need to defend myself,and they are close enough to cut, my hands (and feet) will be to busy to go for a knife.;)

[Carl Levitian]

I was also looking at the figures for urban vs rural population in the U.S., and it seems like we've reached a point where 71% of us live in either a suburban or outright urban area. The population shift in the U.S. has placed us in a lifestyle where a large knife is sort of unneeded in day to day use. Add the city attitude of the dredded PC, and the common sense of not drawing attention to oneself, and a small compact tool seems the way to go. Especailly in places like New York, Washington, Chicago, Boston, and so on.

Of course I'm letting my own lifestyle overlay my thoughts, living on the outskirts of Washinton D.C. I go downtown very often for the Smithsonian museums, art galleries, interesting resuraunts, concerts. Unfortunalty, going to some of those places that are in federal buildings mean passing through security points. A tactical type of folding knife is not going to make it. But I have passed right through with a Buck mini Buck, Gerber mini LST, Christy knife, and other palm sized lockblades. All were razor sharp, and the security personel never looked at them as I picked them up from the plastic tray with my change and car keys. They were too small to blip thier radar. Yet I used a small LST to open a plastic package right in front of a cop and there was no reaction at all.

On the other hand, a conversation I had with a vetern D.C. cop was interesting. He said most of the shootings are gang and drug related. Most street muggings are taken place with a cheap kitchen knife that was stolen from home or shoplifted from a store. The reason is that it can be tossed down a sewer with no loss if it looks like they are gong to get tossed, or the mugging is over and done and they have the mark's wallet and cell phone. The mugging is contact range, with the criminal in your face telling you to "give it up!" It seems like most people when confronted with a shiney paring knife in the hands of some young punk give in pretty quick. "Oh God, hes got a knife! Give him your wallet Harry!" Wife to hubby.

It seems like under those conditions, a small very sharp knife hidden from view, can be a very effective counter blow to some idiot holding his weapon hand right in front of you, while you give him the "Oh God, don't hurt me, heres my wallet." as you bring you hand out with the knife already for use. It takes longer to react than act, and his weapon hand is right there. Cut fast and deep, then run like h--l! Rule 4.

Just thinking.

[bikerdoc]

I always have a gun a knife and a cane.
But my best secret " self defense" weapon is my situational awareness, and incredible ability to avoid trouble. It also helps to absolutely not look like an easy target.
But if you want some trouble I will open the whole can of crazy biker, vietnam vet, with 2 ex wives just enough to get away. Funny how fast a gimpy old man can run when he has to.

[Cosmoline]

The human body has not changed much in 10,000 years

We're a whole lot bigger than we were even fifty years ago. You have folks around today who would have been deemed circus freaks in the 30's--myself included. Folks over 6'5" or more who barely warrant a second look. People well over 300 or 400 lbs walking around. The knife (or bullet) that would easily drop a 150 lb, 5'5" man of 1900 may not work so well against a 300 lb., 6'6" man of 2008. There's a lot more stuff to get through to reach the vitals.

Beyond that, one of the main problems with the knife for self defense is it doesn't do a very good job of STOPPING attacks. It may kill, but often it takes a while as the person loses more blood. I would not want to rely on one to do enough damage to allow me to avoid my own demise.

[mercop]

At conversation distance the knife knows no equal. Most agree that 70% of gun shows wounds are immediatly survivable. Only 30% for edged weapon attacks.
Carl, I see that you live in the people republic of Maryland. Unless you are a retired police or were lucky enough to score a MD CCW you would be limited to a folder as a deadly force option since the average citizen cannot carry a firearm or fixed blade.
It never ceases to amaze me how people that live in places are spend the majority of time in an enviroment that will not allow them to carry a firearm will shell out tons of money on gun, training and ammunition suited to CCW instead of learning how to culitvate their open hand skills and learning how to use the hardware they can carry.

The same thing is true when I travel to teach a course in a state like Maryland where you cannot carry a fixed blade and the host for the course requests fixed blade skills.

It is because of the fact that the average folder does not scare those around the water cooler and that handguns and fixed blades are often prohibited by law, regulation or business practice that I developed Inverted Edge Tactics. It is not dependant on previous training or martial prowess and is brutaly effective for the weakest person since it attackes by default the built in weaknesses of the human body.

My point is that nothing can be tactical, it can only have a tactical application. If my only hardware is a Swiss Army Knife I am going to exploit it to it's full potential.-George

[Valkman]

70% of gun show wounds

Man you must go to some rough gun shows! LOL

[mercop]

you got me bro:)

[Loomis]

My opinion(I ain't charging you for it so don't complain if it aint' worth much) is that folding knives are silly defense weapons and not very good as a tool either. I keep a cheap non-folder (3" blade) in the side pocket of my carhardt bibs right next to my 5-way screwdriver.

I used to keep an antique butterknife there with the blade cut down and sharpened real sharp. But I got this new one for free and retired the old butter knife.

why an antique butter knife? Well, couple of reasons. THe antique butterknives were made from one solid piece of steel. THe handles were solid, not hollow. And the blades were quite a bit heavier duty than the modern butterknives are. Also, the old ones had a thinner handle and so they slipped very nicely into a side pocket. I cut mine down because the blade was huge. The antique butterknives were sometimes very large and could actually be used as a steak knife...unserrated though. I think mine was almost 7 inches long before I cut it down to about 4 inches.

Also, if for some reason a cop wants to make an issue of it as a concealed weapon...it's not a weapon, its and antique butter knife! :)

[mercop]

It is not the size of the tool but how you use it.
http://www.mercop.com/docs/video4.htm

[FerFAL]

But what is a self defense knife?

Something like this :

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/8255/dsc002579jycrgo5.jpg

YMMV, but things like “Rule 1 of knife defense- Bring a gun.” Or “Rule 2- Don't be there.”
I don’t know, seems a lot of people love coming up with these rules, it may work for some, but I don’t see the use in turning the obvious into rules.

How about some more rules like “Rule 43- Win the fight” or “Rule 198-Don’t drop to the ground and cry in fetal position during a fight”.

OSS agents used things like lapel knives because they were spies in enemy territory, if they had a choice, they would have been better armed.

Just like a gun, a knife may be used to dissuade attackers too.

Two punks tried to steal my watch in a train, bringing my cold steel knife out made them think better about it.
Yup, I was glad I had my knife, a gun would have been better but the knife worked, and I was also glad I didn’t have a puny lapel knife.

Staying in the world of knifes, when using one for defense, one rule of thumb that is actually useful is that bigger is generally better.

Give me a Tramontina machete over a fancy Spiderco folder any day. Of course a machete is impossible to conceal but you get the picture.

My cold Steel El Hombre conceals very well in my pocket, yet it’s a stabbing and slashing tool to be reckoned with .

FerFAL

[EShell]

My daughter and I attended one of Mercop's "Open Hand/Edged Weapons" seminars and it was a great experience for both of us.

It is quite impressive what can be done with a good folder at typical SD engagement distances, and we applied ours under a variety of stressful situations. It gave me working techniques for knife deployment and much more confidence in my knife.

I've had a FL CCW for over 7 years and I do CCW where I can. Would I prefer a handgun? Of course. Can I legally have one with/on me at all times? No, not here in "The Free State". You have to do the best you can with what is available and my folder is always right *here*.

[Carl Levitian]

OSS agents used things like lapel knives because they were spies in enemy territory,

Unfortunatly, living in the Peoples Republic Of Maryland has become like living in enemy territory. We have no CCW, knife laws are strict with anything much over 3 inches getting you tossed, the courts are on the liberal side to say the least, and getting cought with some of those big cold steel folders will get me a free room with somebody I really don't want as my roomie.

But...

I'm not about to check into the gated secured old folks home and wait for the last train west. Life is to be lived till it's over, and if that means I have to figure out how to use more low key innocent looking stuff to safeguard me and my better half, so be it. If I run into trouble on the street because I was not observant enough, then I'm going to be up against somebody younger than me, stronger than me, and quicker tham me. I'm certainly not going to let them know I have a knife by trying to intimidate them with it. I can't afford to give them a chance. If a nice sharp 2 inch blade is what I have, I'll just have to try to gain an advantage by underhanded treachery. Being a white bearded social security retiree, the dumbest thing I can do is try to go James Dean one on one with somebody with a knife.

I ain't got this far by being dumb. ;)

[mercop]

Carl, I am retired from an agency in Harford county per the states attorneys office was an subject matter expert on edged weapons. The bottom line in MD is that there is NO length limit for folders and they are considered pen knives and excluded as deadly weapons. Any fixed blade is considered a Bowie Knife and is illegal. There may be local statutes but that is the skinny on MD knife laws.

[Carl Levitian]

Thank you. I was for some reason under the immpression that size was limited. I wonder what D.C. is? I travel downtown often. At some of the places we go, you have to pass though an airport type of security, with emptying your pockets into the plastic tray and walking though the metal detector. My better half has to let them put her purse though the x-ray machine. They never give my walking stick or small pocket knife a second glance.

[EShell]

Hi Carl,

When mercop gives another class here in MD, I'd really encourage you to attend. I'm not a kid either, or in the best of health, and took a lot from the class we attended. He has a class in VA Beach in October, but that's pretty far for me and probably for you as well.

It might please you to know that, here in MD, there is NO blade length limit for a folder, contrary to popular misconception. Many folks will tell you "3-1/2", but, they're certainly not getting that jazz from the statutes, because it's just not there. I checked and you can too: http://198.187.128.12/maryland/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0. A fixed blade knife of any size ("Bowie knife") can be considered a "deadly weapon", but a folder of any size is considered a "penknife" under MD law. "Dirks and daggers" (and presumably lapel knives) are deadly weapons here too, and not a lot different from a pistol in the eyes of the law.

The deployment of a folder is not something one does in a brandishing manner. As you already allude to, the element of surprise and a certain amount of treachery and distraction will go far, and with a knife of any description both are necessary elements to any defense plan.

My point would be that a little qualified instruction, and a decent sized and well sharpened folder drastically changes the dynamic. A clipped folder in the strong hand pocket can be VERY fast to get into action, if one knows how to prepare, and even faster if it's already in the hand. While a razor sharp 2" blade, or even a box cutter (illegal to carry in MD) is nothing to scoff at, it's not quite long enough to be as effective as one needs to be.

ETA: Mercop beat me to it.

[Blofeld]

As others have alluded, training is overlooked entirely. Too many people focus on the "best self defense knife", but have no idea what to do with one. Whatever ones personal preference in a carry blade, I have yet to see one that jumps out and takes care of the bad guy on its own.

[FerFAL]

The deployment of a folder is not something one does in a brandishing manner. As you already allude to, the element of surprise and a certain amount of treachery and distraction will go far, and with a knife of any description both are necessary elements to any defense plan.

If I had waited until I was in a fight I would have been forced to use the knife against them. They had no weapons of any kind, didn’t look overly big or strong, so I brought my knife out, no to threaten but to make it clear that I was armed (at least better than they were!).
Similar principle as the one applied in firearms. If you draw and the bad guy turns around to flee, do you shoot him in the back? DO you wait until 2 guys are punching you so you can justify shooting them all, or do you move back crating distance while you draw and warn them to stand back or get shot?


FerFAL

[Todd A]

FerFal,that is your choice to make.And I have no idea what the laws are in Argentina.

In my state had the two thugs or a witness reported how you handled it to the cops then you would have been arrested.And quite possibly the DA would have brought you to trial.

Outside of our homes we are required to retreat if able to. Lethal force (a knife) is not allowed to protect property. Reasonable physical force is.

Which is why I have items on my person I can use before resorting to a knife.

Not really fair for the good guys I guess. But as I've said before I'd rather not die in prison.

[EShell]

FerFAL, JHMO: In addition to Todd's points, to display a knife provides the opponent the opportunity to evaluate your defenses. To know the extent of one's armament is to be able to plan defense against it.

To keep the knife hidden until it is to be used provides greater advantage, and makes it's use most effective. Displaying my knife may provoke being fired upon, when I may have been able to use it to good effect at the right time. I will always hope to never need to use my knife for defense, but when I do, it will be a very big surprise.

FWIW, here too we have the legal "duty" to retreat, and until someone is actually engaging you, brandishing weapons is a crime in itself.

[Smaug]

What happens if the defender is not as fast a runner as the attacker?

If one is there by accident, there isn't much of a chance to have a stick. (one would only bring a stick if one were going there on purpose)

Knives are sacry, so I say either make sure the knife you break out is big enough to scare the attacker off (think Crocodile Dundee) or bring something more effective than a knife, such as a baton or pepper spray.

[FerFAL]

Outside of our homes we are required to retreat if able to. Lethal force (a knife) is not allowed to protect property. Reasonable physical force is.

As I said, I was in a train, pretty much empty except for me and the two guys. Not much places to retreat to in a moving train.

FerFAL

[conwict]

If I had waited until I was in a fight I would have been forced to use the knife against them.

You made the right decision imo, Fer. That's why (as you alluded to earlier) there is no universal "rule" for self-protection. I would personally prefer not to have to pull a knife, or a gun for that matter, until I was in a position to use it. But I can't control my environment 100%.

[mercop]

These are toys taken from clients
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j22/mercop/EnEBag005.jpg?t=1211835942

[TimboKhan]

I carry a knife daily, but I have said over and over that SD isn't one of the reasons (or is at least a minor reason) why I carry a knife. Why?

I don't know how to knife fight, and I have no plans on learning how to knife fight.

I am certain that the basic movements of "thrust" and "slash" are pretty easy to pick up on the fly, and I guess if I had no other option, Stabby McTimbo would make an appearance, but it's pretty low on my list of things to do.

So, call it sarcasm, an honest evaluation of my skills, or a little of both, but in the end the answer is still the same: I would rather use a gun than a bat, a bat than a knife, and a knife than my fists.

[Blofeld]

That's what I'm talking about. Few people honestly appraise their skills as TimboKhan has.

I had a buddy that dropped $200 on his super-tactical bad knife. He held it on me, and I slapped it out of his hand. He realized at that moment that buying a Steinway doesn't make you a pianist.

[TimboKhan]

THREAD VEER!!! THREAD VEER!!!

Mercop, on thing I do agree with you on, with the exception of a couple minor items, is the contents of your BOE. I particularly like the addition of a shemagh, which is a most useful item to have. I carry one of those and a regular old bandanna in my truck bag. Very little cost to weight or space, very large range of usefulness.

THREAD VEER OVER!!!! THREAD VEER OVER!!!!

[Splodge Of Doom]

Well, living in the UK, I'm screwed.

Unless it's a tool and you can prove it (i.e. It's in your toolbox):

Anything with a fixed blade is banned.

Any folding knife with an edge of more than 3" is banned.

Any folding knife with a locking blade is banned.

Any object carried for the intention of self defense is illegal. There have been people who've been arrested for carrying a gobstopper! (Granted, it was in a sock, but still...)

All I'm left with is my fists and my wits. :(

[mercop]

I had our friends across the pond in mind when I put Inverted Edge Tactics together. Because of the inverted edge there is no need for a lock. A SAK or main blade on a mulit-tool becomes a wonderful SD tool.

Timbo, glad you like the BOE. Have you seen my article called Five to survive the first Five?

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I have to point out observations and/or strongly disagree with some of what's been said:

1. Though I cannot deny (necessarily) that a stick of some sort is equal to or possibly superior to a knife, the reality is that its entirely impractical. I cannot carry a stick everywhere I go. I CAN however, carry a folding knife. I can carry a gun a lot more places than I can carry a stick, and a knife even more places than a gun (the beach / lake, for example).

2. A folding knife is an excellent, outstanding, quickly deployed, formidable, deadly weapon, with rapid & multiple strike capability, ****IF*** you don't have a gun. Again, a folding knife can be carried completely concealed whereas a fixed blade knife ordinarily cannot (except for a neck knife, of which I am a big fan). A fixed blade worn externally is only "PC" in certain very limited places. Sure, in an ideal world, a fixed blade is better, but a

Do not discount the deadliness of a sharp, sturdy folding knife (with a good locking mechanism and sure grip) in agile hands.

I do agree with the (a) bring a gun, and (b) run like hell if you have a chance. But (b) is true in ALL self-defense encounters. You should always AVOID if possible.

If I think I'm going to a place where I have an unusually high chance of an incident and cannot carry a gun, I like my Gerber Applegate-Fairbairn folder, which I've made into a 2-edge, or my CRKT "Desert Cruiser" which has the LAWKS system to ensure that it cannot fold while employed. For everyday, the Kershaw Leek, Avalanche, or Spec Bump is carried. I would bet that I could kill someone very quickly with my razor sharp Leek, should I be attacked - even though the knife is relatively small, it's long enough to reach vital organs and slim enough to easily pierce.

I'm sorry to hear about the state of affairs in G.B. :( I'd have a 3" folder (non-locking) and work on that inverted technique, focusing on slicing, not stabbing, so that pressure is always working against the blade's opening direction, not against its closing direction - nice technique...

[seeker_two]

Maybe I'm in rare company; but I'm one of those who does believe in the concept of the self-defense knife and that, like most things, technique is the decider on lethal vs. non-lethal usage.

My EDC is a CRKT Crawford-Kaspar folder w/ the LAWKS. One of the things I like about it is that, when folded and grasped in my fist, enough of the bottom of the metal-reinforced grip sticks out past my pinky that it makes an effective Kubotan/Mini-Mag-Light-type tool that can be used as a non-lethal alternative...esp. when appiled by hammer fist into soft & sensitive areas. I also like the Ka-Bar-type knives with the round, heavy pommels that can be used as a cosh. I wish more folders and fixed blade knives were made with these considerations in mind.

I guess, like Alton Brown, I like multi-taskers.... :D

[RX-178]

I have a totally different set of rules for a knife fight.... although, to be completely accurate, my rules are more for PREPARING for a knife fight before you happen to find yourself in one.


1: Pick a knife that you can carry everywhere. It's likely going to be small, a folder, or both. But if you can carry something outside that description, and are willing and able to carry it with you everywhere, there's nothing wrong with that.

2: Learn how to use THAT knife in self defense.

3: Carry that knife everywhere.



As an example, I carry a victorinox swisstool with me everywhere. As a self defense tool, it's used as a fist pack/weight, instead of a knife.