A real eye opener, no flamewar intended.


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JeffDilla
September 17, 2008, 06:42 PM
First off, in no way do I mean this post to shed a negative light on guns, gun owners, suggest that any of us are irresponsible gun owners or anything of the like, so I hope no one sees it as so. I've actually flip-flopped on whether or not to even post this. I decided to, and I hope no one takes it the wrong way, I apologize in advance if it touches any nerves, as it is not my intent at all. I just wanted to share an experience I had yesterday. I am a "non-traditional" (older) college student, enrolled at university. I am taking a Forensic Science course, which is an extremely interesting and fascinating course. However, the subject we are currently covering is firearms and firearm injuries/fatalities. We had a guest speaker yesterday, the state medical examiner, and he presented a lecture of firearm fatalities, complete with graphic slides of actual homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings. It's a very humbling and somewhat disturbing experience to witness the reality of what guns are capable of, and I speak for myself saying that it's easy to be jaded by hollywood and glorified and romanticized violence. The lecture was just a reminder of the actual power of firearms and the respect they command and the hopes that none of us are ever faced with a situation where we have to use deadly force, although its sometimes warranted. I love my gun just as much as everyone else and yesterday was just another reality check. I know we're all responsible gun owners and feel it's up to us to teach likewise. I know I'm new to handguns , but I've shot rifles and shotguns since I was very young, so I hope this doesn't come across as just a noob preaching to the choir. I'll stop "preaching" now, It just helped me a bit to share my experience. Thanks.

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MarshallDodge
September 17, 2008, 06:47 PM
Jeff, I understand where you are coming from but always remember, a gun cannot act alone, it has to be aimed and the trigger pulled by someone. :cool:

JeffDilla
September 17, 2008, 06:52 PM
Marshall Dodge, I know what you mean, and I'm not suggesting that the guns are the ones doing the killing, its just a reminder of what they are capable of doing, or for that matter, what some people are capable of doing...

SCKimberFan
September 17, 2008, 06:56 PM
Quite frankly Jeff, I think much more realistic evidence of what a bullet can do would be told by the EMTs who are the first responders at the scene, which would be far more graphic, with the aftermath of the shooting still particularly evident.

You could also do the same thing with an auto accident, the failure to wear seat belts, etc. or witness the destruction immediately after a violent storm, hurricane or tornado.

All of these thing bring us back to reality, to which we must always keep ourselves attached, even when we detach to go post of such things on the internet.

James T Thomas
September 17, 2008, 07:12 PM
JeffD:

Your introduction is good; I don't think any reasonable reader will jump to a misunderstood conclusion about what you wrote.

Firearm wounds are gruesome, however Jeff, search here for knife wounds, and some other time you may have a chance to witness automobile trauma, and gunshot wounds may not be quite so dramatic any more.

It is a somber responsibility to shoot another human being, but I am gratified none the less to live in this nation where I can bear arms in the defense of my loved ones, helpless others and myself.

Restorer
September 17, 2008, 07:13 PM
I agree, seeing the actuality of a fatal gunshot is terrible. Everybody talks about "The 4 Rules", and while I subscribe to those, I summarized them for my family: "always, in all ways, respect the power of the gun."

The human body is a wonderful yet fragile machine. As the Bible says..."You are wonderfully made." The machine can withstand a lot of abuse before it expires. My brother, an MD, did a stint at a Baltimore trauma center as part of his training. He developed an Inverse Social Value equation; it takes more to kill the bad people than the good. He had thugs walk in with multiple gunshot wounds, and leave fairly quickly. He was also with the Marines is Somalia as a surgeon. None of it was pretty.

That said, has your class seen any pictures of axe murders? Car accident victims who were not buckled up? Knifings? You get the picture. The trauma is related to intent (or negligence), not just the to instrument of the insult.

I don't think it would influence my decision to arm myself. Remember, you're one of the good guys (giving you the benefit of the doubt here : ) ) The sociopaths have no such qualms. Just the fact that you ask questions about your motivation in the face of destruction is good.

Keep the faith.

Justin
September 17, 2008, 07:14 PM
Jeff, I don't think you're out of line at all. Plainly you recognize that firearms can be safely used. What you received was just a reminder of why we need to always be vigilant against unsafe gun handling. There's nothing controversial or worthy of a flame war in that.

JeffDilla
September 17, 2008, 07:17 PM
James T Thomas, well said. And I agree with what you wrote in regards to knife wounds and automobile accidents, and in class we'll be discussing and viewing those as well and I know they'll all have the same effect. It was just that yesterdays subject materials happened to be firearms and hit a little close to home as I have recently developed an interest in handguns and am in the process of taking a handgun safety course and all that good stuff. I guess all in all, it was just coincidental timing for me.

ZeSpectre
September 17, 2008, 07:19 PM
I've actually flip-flopped on whether or not to even post this.
Glad you did. I think you are voicing some legitimate concerns that you want to discuss and mull over. That's extremely healthy, for all of us.


I am taking a Forensic Science course, which is an extremely interesting and fascinating course. However, the subject we are currently covering is firearms and firearm injuries/fatalities. We had a guest speaker yesterday, the state medical examiner, and he presented a lecture of firearm fatalities, complete with graphic slides of actual homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings. It's a very humbling and somewhat disturbing experience to witness the reality of what guns are capable of, and I speak for myself saying that it's easy to be jaded by hollywood and glorified and romanticized violence.
I understand what you are saying but I agree with others, regardless of what firearms are capable of (and it pales in comparison to what motor vehicle accidents do to people) it is still either the intent or the negligence of the person behind the trigger. I worked a bit of LE and I can tell you that there are monsters out there who will turn anything into a gruesome weapon. One of the most stomach twisting pieces of sheer psychopathy I've ever had the utter misfortune to have seen involved nothing more than a broom handle and sheer homicidal rage!

Now this in no way makes light of the heavy responsibility one accepts when one chooses to have firearms, but then again the same can and must be said for Automobiles as well.

JesseL
September 17, 2008, 07:20 PM
I think most of the people here who happen to be hunters (successful ones anyway) already have a very clear idea of the kind of damage a firearm can do to a living creature.

maestro pistolero
September 17, 2008, 07:24 PM
They are all dangerous and potentially lethal. From the lowliest .22 to a .50 BMG. An appropriate reminder IMHO. Thank you.

Eyesac
September 17, 2008, 07:27 PM
I hear ya, people (good and bad) w/ guns can kill people and dead people are gross:barf:

Vern Humphrey
September 17, 2008, 08:03 PM
Many years ago, I saw my first really dead man, bloating in the sun, with gas bubbles escaping through his wounds.

I said to myself, "I don't want that to happen to me." Nor do I want it to happen to my wife or daughters. So ever since then, in combat or out, I have been armed.

JeffDilla
September 17, 2008, 08:18 PM
Eyesac, that made me laugh out loud, intended or not.

Rich K
September 17, 2008, 08:19 PM
Jeff, I appreciate your post. Having been a paramedic for the last 15 years, I have run dozens of shootings and stabbings. I can personally recall a number of times when, if you didn't know the cause of injury, you would not guess it was a gunshot. The most recent was a suicide, one shot to the right temple, no exit, and very little blood. THe deceased was , I can assure you, quite dead. But as others have said,a gun or a knife is an inanimate object, incapable of action on it's own. Far worse, to me at least, are the car wrecks I have been on, and the child abuse cases, the most recent of which was last night. Far more horrendous, especially when it's a 20 y/o who was dismembered when his motorcycle got t-boned by a drunk who passed out behind the wheel.

Realbigo
September 17, 2008, 08:26 PM
I'm taking this as yet another reminder to handle all of my firearms as safely as possible, and if i am put in a bad situation, where I must respond w/ a firearm, to make sure I only hit my target.

ants
September 17, 2008, 08:29 PM
JesseL makes an excellent point in Post #10.

If you have never field dressed big game, see if you can help a friend do it some time. More so than graphic photographs, the experience of removing gunshot organs from a large body is very real and immediate. The experience has probably made a safer shooter out of nearly every hunter.

Nolo
September 17, 2008, 08:30 PM
I think I get what the OP is saying.
There's a lot of power to be had from guns...
And it is that power that is precisely why we should defend the right of honest men and women to own and operate them.

Black Knight
September 17, 2008, 08:40 PM
Jeff, Ito know where you are coming from. When I was 17 I was a Police Explorer with the local city police. I was working after school with our fingerprint unit (crime lab now). We got a call of a suicide, a man had shot himself. This experience was quite eye opening. Even after all these years I can still see the scene. I even went to the morgue in order to get the deceasdant's fingerprints. The deceadant bought the gun the day before at the gunshop of a very good friend. When people see something like this for the first time they are so overwhelmed they act in different ways. The best is to talk about it, get off your chest and go on. Like others, I don't think anyone will misunderstand. Take care and stay safe.

Mark Evel
September 17, 2008, 08:46 PM
this thread, but, Nolo, I hope you and yours made it through the storm w/o too much trouble.

orionengnr
September 17, 2008, 09:11 PM
Many years ago, I saw my first really dead man, bloating in the sun, with gas bubbles escaping through his wounds.

I said to myself, "I don't want that to happen to me." Nor do I want it to happen to my wife or daughters. So ever since then, in combat or out, I have been armed.

Vern Humphrey hit the nail on the head.
The armed legal CCW holder does not kill innocents or shoot anyone (unless justified), so the real concern is the dead unarmed innocent victim.

NukemJim
September 17, 2008, 09:15 PM
The lecture was just a reminder of the actual power of firearms

Please remember however for the dead ones you saw the ones that worked. many of the live ones do not get photographed.*

There are very few ways of violent death that are photogenic.

I agree with a previous poster about knife wounds being even more graphic and if the person knows what they are doing deadly.

NukemJim

(* I know I used to be one of the guys doing the photography for the hospital and/or LEO )

dmazur
September 17, 2008, 09:16 PM
Years ago, they used to show traffic fatalities and the like as part of driver's education. I'm not sure it did a whole lot of good, other than make a few of the class sick. The intent was to help us understand what can happen if a car is operated improperly (negligently).

If you were "open minded" and understood from the graphic visual images that guns are capable of serious injury, that's good (IMO). Probably a whole lot of gun owners who just have a vague idea about it.

The difference, and where the car analogy falls apart, is most of us don't think of a car as a defensive weapon. Except maybe the drivers that are also bodyguards, and get taught things like bootlegger turns, ramming, etc. to protect the "principal".

So, I'd say be aware of the dangers of negligent gun operation, just like a car. If faced with a "save yourself" situation, I'm not sure I'd think about the damage guns can inflict, just how to best use one to stop the other person so they can't injure me.

Good reminder, guns can cause an awful lot of damage. Movies and TV are nonsense.

mr.scott
September 17, 2008, 09:37 PM
Nothing tops seeing a lady in a bathtub with parts of her head in the room next door. (Shotgun 3" 0 buck)

yokel
September 17, 2008, 09:56 PM
Well, to be an armed citizen basically means being ready and willing to kill in war on our shores.

One must be ready to face up to the searing, chaotic reality of having to repeatedly kill other human beings.

Watching someone closely through the telescopic sight of a rifle before pulling the trigger.

Or close combat with no regard to group tactics or fighting as an organized unit; each participant fighting as an individual.

Seeing the disfigured corpse of a person you just killed.

ants
September 17, 2008, 10:02 PM
I think we may be straying from JeffDilla's original point.

To exercise the right to bear arms does not make one a willfull instant killer. I find myself categorically distancing myself from the previous post.

yokel
September 17, 2008, 10:21 PM
With all due respect, your remarks evince a fundamental misunderstanding of the right to keep and bear arms and the Second Amendment.

I am not one to sugar-coat an unpleasant truth.

.38 Special
September 17, 2008, 11:03 PM
Quite frankly Jeff, I think much more realistic evidence of what a bullet can do would be told by the EMTs who are the first responders at the scene, which would be far more graphic, with the aftermath of the shooting still particularly evident.

My experience as a paramedic pretty much parallels Rich's, I think. Most of the gunshots I saw (never saw an accident; one suicide and several "gangstas") were actually pretty unimpressive. One bad guy comes to mind; he was thoroughly ventilated with .22s and bled out during the ride, but the half dozen neat little holes really didn't catch your attention.

Another .22 victim was shot once in the head and I really had to look to find the entrance wound at all. In the hair, no exit wound, and DRT.

The guy that shot himself in the throat with the 12 gauge, though, was a mess, and traumatizing for all present. For whatever it's worth, if you're going to commit suicide with a shotgun, you should do it somewhere where your mother isn't going to be the one to find you.

Picard
September 17, 2008, 11:11 PM
Yup, the aftermath of a gunshot can be devastating, but that's part of why they are so good at what they do. There's really nothing else like it.

qajaq59
September 18, 2008, 07:25 AM
The lecture was just a reminder of the actual power of firearms Now you need to attend a lecture on what auto accidents can do. Believe me, it is worse and far, far more prevalent.

brigadier
September 18, 2008, 08:01 AM
I actually know what you are going through. Been there, done that. After a while, the horror scenery turns in to a simple understanding of physics and you are able to think about it with good logic which you are being conditioned to do as it is mandatory rationality in forensics.

Do keep this in mind. Despite being the most intimidating and lethal, guns are the greatest invention to humanitary killing ever. First, they balance the odds, where before guns came along a big guy with a sword was usually able to bully a little guy and women with an equal size sword.
Secondly, next time you see a human skull that's been splattered by a high powered rifle or shotgun, think of the killing from the victim's perspective and then compare in the same way, someone getting their head sawed off by a knife.
In that sense, more mess usually = less suffering. The same is true eve in hunting. I don't know about everyone else but if I were a deer, I would much rather a hunter blow my brains out with a .270 rifle then a mountain lion rip me apart alive.
Likewise, I would much rather you be sifting through my shattered skull then fiddling with my sawed off head.

BruceRDucer
September 18, 2008, 08:59 AM
/
romanticized violence.---JeffDilla

Hey JeffDilla, that's okay. It's like seeing car wreck videos in the driving ed classes. It takes a while to sort out the ugliness.

We must always be mindful that guns, and violence generally, are not the solution to most of mankind's problems. Our problem is learning to "live" together, rather than to "die" together.

Still, we must never remove the threat of unwarranted violence from the daily equation.

Historically, violence has been done to civilian populations, which justifies the principles and laws for Self Defense.

Shooting is never romantic, as Hollywood movies often suggest.

Even as a teenager, watching Westerns on TV, I noticed that all the witnessess, the townspeople and ranchers, watching cowboys gun each other down, all seemed to be both expressionless and feelingless puppets, looking around at the dead person or persons, entirely devoid of emotion or feeling.

In fact, part of sorting out my own philosophical issues was identifying the role of FEELINGS in healthier people.

Regardless of which though, criminal violence and lawful self defense are distinctly different propositions, and we must not fail to distinguish the two.:):):):):)

/

SSN Vet
September 18, 2008, 09:20 AM
A co-worker seriously cut his hand (almost in half) while working on a table saw in his garage. My stomach turned as he described his injuries to me. The scars on his hands were pretty severe and a year later he still had very limited use of his hand.

I think its very healthy to be fully aware of the devastating power harnessed by "power tools" and I consider firearms in the same category.

Many gun safety "incidents" (imo) are related to confusing guns with toys and not potentially dangerous tools.

Your class gave you a good reminder of that potential danger of handguns. Log that one away mentally and it will serve you well the rest of your life.

PershingRiflesC-7
September 18, 2008, 09:24 AM
As a survivor of a GSW due to improper gun handling when I was young and dumb (33 years ago), I can clearly relate to the OP's point about focus on the four rules. Due to my negligence, I was able to learn a lesson the hard way -- I would not wish that on anyone.

As to the points made by other posters concerning the actual wounds, I was shot with a .22 magnum in the abdomen with the bullet on an upward trajectory that carried it to a point under my left shoulder blade where it remains today. The docs said they would do more damage with surgery than it was worth to remove the bullet. The entry wound was relatively small and bled very little.

Norinco982lover
September 18, 2008, 09:26 AM
Interesting post.
Had a discussion with my wife last night she asked me, "I don't know why you have to have a gun, they accidentally go off and kill people." I said, "well they're just a tool like any other such as a hammer you need to respect them and always always follow the 4 rules," She said, "hammer's don't go off and kill people," and I reminded her of the story posted here last week about that guy flipping out on a subway and pulled a hammer from his backpack and started beating everyone. It's still not the same though. The gun IS a tool but I suppose it would be best compared to a chainsaw or a nailgun. You have to be careful with it and always watch that you don't leave it out where a child can hurt themselves and be sure that you handle it safely.

Restorer
September 18, 2008, 11:40 AM
Likewise, I would much rather you be sifting through my shattered skull then fiddling with my sawed off head....


Brigadier, say it ain't so! I just coated my keyboard with coffee. That was totally unexpected. Hey, you could license that line to a greeting card company...or a country music songwriter.

halfbreed808
September 20, 2008, 12:39 AM
When I was about 15yo I went to my friends house to hang out. We hung out after school whenever his girlfriend wasn't around. Well they had broken up a couple of days earlier, so I was going to see him. Anyway, long story short he got a shotgun and did the unthinkable. :barf: :(I'm the one who found him in the garage. His parents weren't home from work yet.
That memory stays with me all the time, yet I realize every action, and reaction is the result of choice. The decisions we make, no matter how miniscule they may seem can snowball into biggger actions then we intend. We cannot blame the object only the user of the object. When it comes to the conclusion the decisions we make, affect the outcome. Every decision we make will always affect at least three other people in some way. It' how we choose that we create either positive or negative results.

___________________________
"IT'S ALL ABOUT CHOICES."

Deer Hunter
September 20, 2008, 12:41 AM
I got to hold down a screaming, urinating, cursing 14 year old drug addict while he tried to claw the eyes out of our nurses a few nights ago.

But I know that the drugs didn't do that to the kid. He did it to himself with the help of the drugs.

SaxonPig
September 20, 2008, 08:50 AM
Wait until you see someone who has been struck by a car doing 60 MPH. Makes GSWs look like insect bites.

Levity aside, I think most shooters are aware of the effects of bullet wounds. I think we take the responsibility of owning and using firearms seriously.

LKB3rd
September 20, 2008, 09:08 AM
At one point I saw some pictures of gun-suicide victims. Horrible horrible pics, and had the same effect of bringing home the seriousness of what guns can do. It isn't for everyone, because as I said, the images are horrible, but if you have the stomach for it, I don't think there is anything wrong with seeing the real consequences of a bullet on a person. It isn't anything to be taken lightly, and it isn't anything like Hollywood.

theotherwaldo
September 20, 2008, 09:49 AM
The bottom line: Respect your tools. Be concerned about their abilities to generate and channel force. Learn how to use them properly. Know your limitations, and theirs. Be aware that others may not respect your tools, or their own.

This is true of any tool, from screwdriver to steam shovel, tricycle to space shuttle, toothpick to X-ray machine.

It's certainly true for such ordinary tools as firearms and automobiles.

SCKimberFan
September 20, 2008, 09:57 AM
Momentary Hijack

"I don't know why you have to have a gun, they accidentally go off and kill people."

Norinco -

You missed a great opportunity. Guns do NOT go off accidentally. You should have corrected her. Someone has to pull the trigger!

OK, rant done. Back to your regular thread.

graygun
September 20, 2008, 09:57 AM
It's good to realize how destructive a high-speed projectile(including shot,etc.) can be w/o being hit or shooting someone.

I remember seeing photos in the Smithonian medical museum in D.C. when I was about 12 yrs old. One was of a shot gun suicide:nothing left of the head from about nose-level.

If it helps us have more respect for the lethal potential than it's good,I suppose.

Regarding movies and TV(the makers of the products),I find it strange that people who are mostly very liberal are so deeply into gun violence fantasy. It makes them a lot of money;so I guess,in part,it's a self-answering question.

Bitmap
September 20, 2008, 10:15 AM
I think anyone that has field dressed or butchered a deer or other big game animal has a pretty good idea of the physical destructiveness of firearms.

jonmerritt
September 20, 2008, 10:58 AM
Auto accidents THAT is gruesome! Much worse than gunshots! But we are more acceptible to auto "accidents", because all gunshots are crime related according to the anti's. But its an accident to drive through a crowd, kill 10 people and maim many others. Dam SUV's we need to ban the SUV's

anythingshiny
September 20, 2008, 11:20 AM
having been a nurse for a number of years, I have seen my share of GSW. Some were just not what i expected..a young guy, gang related had tried "mexican carry" with his 45 after a drive by. I expected to see a HUGE exit wound..but didnt. The entry was powder burned but not at all impressive and the exit was not as clinically impressive as I thought a 45 at contact would be.

The really impressive damage was the internal destruction. He lived, but was a mess for a long while.

But yes, I agree..it is sobering to see the effects up close. Having grown up hunting, I have dressed my share of game..but it is very different seening a human body with holes where holes dont normally belong.

My experience as an RN and the effects of GSW on the human body does not change or alter the reason I carry though, probabaly strengthens my resolve.

JeffDilla
September 20, 2008, 11:47 AM
I sincerely hope that no one read my post as second guessing or questioning any of our rights and decisions to own or carry guns, it was not my intent. I just thought I'd share my personal experience and emotional response to it. It was a pretty moving experience and just helped to discuss it with like minded people, thanks for all the replies and discussion that entailed.

Loosedhorse
September 20, 2008, 11:48 AM
OP:
somewhat disturbing experience to witness the reality of what guns are capable of

I think it would be great if this type of exposure was routine for anyone planning on using firearms for self-defense.

The Hollywood defensive shoot (when I was a kid--I think we had talkies by then) was one-shot, guy grabs his chest, and falls over, nice and neat. Or grabs his shoulder, if he received a "flesh wound," or just shook his hand repeatedly if the gun was just shot out of it.

In reality, if you shoot someone in self-defense, expect the wrongful-death plaintiff's attorney to show some pretty gruesome morgue pictures (especially if you used a shotgun or rifle) while explaining what a horrible, painful death you inflicted on the decedent.

Or, just as likely, expect the shot attacker to show the pictures HIMSELF, from the witness chair, as he describes his pain, suffering, and permanent disability. All because of you.

This is not to discourage anyone from carrying (it certainly doesn't discourage me, and I think we most of us have this pretty clear)--but we should all know what it means to shoot someone.

(I agree with ants--I do not think of myself as a killer, my training, abilities, and mindset notwithstanding.)

deerhunter61
September 20, 2008, 12:05 PM
You made this statement..... "I know we're all responsible gun owners and feel it's up to us to teach likewise."

You are making a pretty big assumption that all gun owners on this forum are responsible and also that you believe that all want to teach others likewise.

This is something we would all like but because this is a cross section of people even though a lot I am sure are responsible not all are...

The very things you mentioned and the destruction that firearms do cause does need to be mentioned as often as possible. So I am glad you shared your experience.

Thanks,

JeffDilla
September 20, 2008, 12:18 PM
Deerhunter61, you're welcome, and you're right, I made a blanket statement without realizing it when I said we're all responsible gun owners. I guess I just didn't want to step on toes in posting what had the potential to be a touchy post to begin with. My bad:)

RobG5538
September 20, 2008, 12:30 PM
We had a guest speaker yesterday, the state medical examiner, and he presented a lecture of firearm fatalities, complete with graphic slides of actual homicides, suicides, and accidental shootings

To be cynical, I would guess he brought the worst of the worst to prove a point; guns are bad. And I would venture to guess he is not a gun advocate. That said, most of the gsw's I have had are merely holes and some blood. Ones to the head do produce some brain matter on occasion and those shotgun blasts to the head can produce exactly what you can imagine. But having seen people hit by cars at 75 on the fwy or someone that jumped under a train make the gsw's minor in comparison.

Don Gwinn
September 20, 2008, 12:36 PM
Rob, I wouldn't make that assumption. For one thing, Dilla's level of gore ennui may not be similar to yours. For another, guns DO create graphic wounds.

And Jeff, I wouldn't worry about it. You're SUPPOSED to be sober about the responsibility of using a gun. It's OK. It can't all be lighthearted hijinks or someone will get killed.

JeffDilla
September 20, 2008, 12:39 PM
RobG5538, Surprisingly, while the medical examiner didn't come right out and say he was pro-gun, several times he reiterated the fact that the homicides and suicides were the results of choices that people made and similar statements. The actual professor of the course is pro-gun. The class before the GSW lecture, the lecture was all about different firearms and he brought in several of his own collection to demonstrate and showed us his ccw. He also made note of the 4 rules of safety numerous times. I was pleasantly surprised.

RobG5538
September 20, 2008, 04:32 PM
The actual professor of the course is pro-gun. The class before the GSW lecture, the lecture was all about different firearms and he brought in several of his own collection to demonstrate and showed us his ccw

Very cool, and surprising:D

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 20, 2008, 05:02 PM
What dmazur said - good reminder - we should all be aware of what guns can do. Which is why Eddie Eagle should be teaching in ALL grade schools (stop, don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult), and all middle & high schools should have gun safety classes mandatory (along with my idea of 1 semester mandatory classes on both capitalism and logic).

yesit'sloaded
September 20, 2008, 05:04 PM
I'm a safety officer for a formula car team, and in working with safety equipment from an engineering point of view you have to research failures and what caused them. I respect my firearms and the physics of what they can do, but in the big wide world of mayhem they are nothing. I'd much rather be shot in the head than have twelve bones broken and then die upside down in a burning racecar.Every animal I've ever killed died within 3 or 4 seconds if that long. We do indeed have powerful tools, and they must be respected in regards to their consequences. That having been said I see much more stupidity and carelessness involving vehicles and chemical compounds (drugs) than firearms.

yokel
September 20, 2008, 07:19 PM
(I agree with ants--I do not think of myself as a killer, my training, abilities, and mindset notwithstanding.)

Very well.

Perhaps you'd care to recommend some flattering, all-encompassing euphemism we ought to employ to describe one that kills?

browningguy
September 20, 2008, 07:33 PM
Knife wounds can be pretty ugly too.

ErikS
September 20, 2008, 07:46 PM
I dont see anything bad with getting a reality check, even though they can be a bit disturbing at first.

I remember when I was doing military service, and the officers gave us one that in some cases was really needed. (with mandatory service, many of the soldiers only knew guns from the movies) Seeing with their own eyes that our helmets didn't stop bullets, that a tree was concealment and not cover, what a bullet did to a plastic jug full of water, and that blanks was still dangerous 10-15 feet away was an eyeopener to a lot of the guys.

Allthough not as graphic as yours, I dont think it's a bad thing to get a reminder from time to time what the tool you are using can do.
Just like a car. A part of drivers ed here is to drive on a slips runway, where the car skids, and then try to steer through it. Really opens your eyes on how hard it is to handle a car that starts skidding on icy roads, and how fast you can get into trouble. A very good reality check too.

Pigspitter
September 20, 2008, 08:26 PM
From personal experience, I didn't have a true respect for what guns were capable until I saw it first-hand. It was a very humbling experience and my respect for firearms and attitude towards the severity with which they should be used is forever changed. No matter what anybody says, people can be and have been hurt by firearms.

Prod
September 20, 2008, 10:25 PM
Despite being the most intimidating and lethal, guns are the greatest invention to humanitary killing ever. First, they balance the odds, where before guns came along a big guy with a sword was usually able to bully a little guy and women with an equal size sword.
This is a very good point.

siglite
September 20, 2008, 10:51 PM
Just a word to the hunters out there. I've pulled a 150gr soft point out of a deer I killed. And let me tell you, a destroyed deer in front of you is a totally thing than seeing the death of a human being.

I've watched a man die from a bullet. A .22. A friend. The impact of that is not in the same ballpark as watching a doe die quickly from a well placed shot. It's not even in the parking not. It's not even in the same CITY.

The gore is just gore. But human suffering is another thing. And not just the suffering of the person shot. But the endless waves of sadness and loss for the person's family and friends.

There is potential for unfathomable human pain in what we carry on our hips. And in what we drive. And in anything else we do which could potentially result in loss of life.

A sobering reminder every now and then is often very good for all of us.

But you cannot compare it to field-dressing bambi in the woods. That does the serious and reaching results of shooting a human being a grave disservice. You are comparing apples to oranges. Yes, you can cut them both in half with a knife. But there the similarity ends.

JesseL
September 20, 2008, 11:39 PM
siglite, seeing the death of a human being is indeed incomparable to the death of an animal.

HOWEVER, the OP of this thread wasn't talking about seeing the death of a human being. He was talking about seeing dead human beings. So from the standpoint of seeing the physical damage a bullet can do, it is comparable with the experiences of hunters.

I understand your point, but I think you missed the original direction of the thread.

Aguila Blanca
September 20, 2008, 11:57 PM
In the real world, people who get shot often die as a result.

This was a surprise somehow?

siglite
September 21, 2008, 12:29 AM
HOWEVER, the OP of this thread wasn't talking about seeing the death of a human being. He was talking about seeing dead human beings. So from the standpoint of seeing the physical damage a bullet can do, it is comparable with the experiences of hunters.

But the psychological impact *is* a LOT different. It is still apples to oranges.

KP89
September 21, 2008, 12:54 AM
Guns were designed to kill things and are pretty good at doing their job, I understand why some people want them banned as they are very deadly and one wrong action could easily lead to death.

On the other side of that, many other objects could lead to accidental or even intentional deaths as well.

Still I personally like them and used responsibly in a respective manor never leads to harm, banning me from gun ownership won't be a benefit to anyone.

Restorer
September 21, 2008, 06:10 PM
We all seem to agree that human suffering as a result of gunshot trauma is terrible and sobering, worthy of deep reflection on your thinking about using firearms in defense of your person or of others.

However, if all other methods of defense fail and someone is going to have to suffer, I want it to be the other guy. If I need therapy after winning a gunfight I'll be happy to be around to pay said therapist. The bad operator can get therapy in a somewhat hotter environment.

In, brief, better him than me.

ronnieevans40
September 21, 2008, 06:26 PM
I work in a correctional max custody unit in AZ. I have seen damage done to people up close done with shanks, clubs, broom handles, fist, feet, and any other number of items you can think of. Guns are no more or less horrible than say a 7 in blade made from a fence tie that is stabbed into a person 56 times. People who shoot each other no matter the reason do damage. So do any other number of weapons. It is not guns but people who are responsible and should be held accountable. Of course the anti-gun people and others will show pictures that are horrible that is the way of it all. remember back in the day the blood on the windshield, it is all the same. Guns do not kill people, people kill people, accidents do not happen, they are created.

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