Man arrested for Glock under seat


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Yoda
September 17, 2008, 11:31 PM
Item in the Northwest Florida Daily News (Fort Walton Beach/Destin area):

FORT WALTON BEACH -- An Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office deputy who responded to a call about a disturbance in progress found a 20-year-old Navarre man who told him he had a Glock under his driver's seat.

The deputy could also see the gun, according to the incident report.

The man told him that he'd had the gun in his glovebox when he stopped to give someone a ride. Before allowing the individual in his car, he moved the weapon so it wouldn't be close to the individual.

He did not have a concealed gun permit for the Glock, which was purchased at a local pawn shop. The Glock was loaded.

(here's the link: http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/seat_11162___article.html/glock_beach.html)

------------

OK, for those of you who aren't from Florida, our state laws allow people who are not otherwise prohibited from having a gun to keep one, loaded, in the glovebox. Moving the gun away from where a hitch-hiker could gain access to it would appear to be a prudent measure, and I think the arrest could be fought under the doctrine of "competing harms." It all depends on exactly what the charge was. If the hitch-hiker was a minor, then one could argue that Section 790.174 (safe storage) could be read as REQUIRING him to move the gun.

It's very possible the cop is off base here, although there may be a technical violation.

The next county over, in Defuniak Springs, I once got into a debate with a city policeman about the specific requirements that must be met in order to carry a hangun in a car. He insisted that if the driver had to perform "three or more distinct acts" to gain control of the gun, he was OK, but otherwise, this cop would arrest him. This sounded to me to be completely made up. The laws just don't support such a supposition.

Here are the two applicable laws:

Florida Section 790.25(5), "Possession in Private Conveyance," reads, "... it is lawful and is not a violation of s 790.01 for a person 18 years of age or older to possess a concealed firearm or other weapon for self-defense of other lawful purposes within the interior of a private conveyance, without a liicense, if the firearm or other weapon is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. Nothing herein contained prohibits the carrying of a legal firearm other than a handgun anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use... This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons..."

Section 790.001(17), "Definitions," is more specific. It says, " 'Securely encased' means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access."

It is this last part where the officer and I disagreed. He said that the semi-colon (";") meant "and," thus a gun had to be in a glove box AND in a snapped holster with the holster in a locked case. I tried to explain to him that anyone with a grade-school understanding of the English language would know that the semi-colon meant "or." He said that I was wrong, and he brought in another officer who agreed with him, and the two of them assured me that I'd be arrested if I didn't comply with THEIR understanding of the law.

I guess there's a lot of lessons there. One of the most important is, " It's not what the law says that's going to cost you a lot of lawyer fees; it's what the arresting officer THINKS the law says that's going to cost you."

- - - Yoda

===============

Blame Congress

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hexidismal
September 17, 2008, 11:53 PM
Moving the gun away from where a hitch-hiker could gain access to it would appear to be a prudent measure

One big problem I can think of though. I could be wrong about this.. but isn't it illegal to pick up a hitchhiker in the first place ? ( unless rendering aid due to accident or injury)

If I'm right about that, then you're saying his defense should be justifiable by saying he was compelled to break the law, however good his intentions, due to the fact that he was better preparing to break another law .. not such a good defense if you ask me

tigre
September 18, 2008, 12:01 AM
One big problem I can think of though. I could be wrong about this.. but isn't it illegal to pick up a hitchhiker in the first place ? ( unless rendering aid due to accident or injury)
Hitchhiking is apparently legal in Florida as long as you're not on the Interstate and aren't actually standing in the road. But the point remains that the guy didn't have to pick up a hitchhiker, especially when he knew in advance that he'd have to break the law regarding gun storage in a vehicle to do so.

Double Naught Spy
September 18, 2008, 12:07 AM
What was the disturbance?

LWGN
September 18, 2008, 12:07 AM
It is NOT illegal to pick up hitchhikers in Florida, provided they are not on "limited access highways" , such as interstates.

Florida is fairly specific in their laws relating to highways and pedestrians, partly because there is such a large elderly population in the state. Hitchhiking is legal if not on a main highway (interstate system, etc.) and the hitchhiker is standing on the shoulder.

Read the complete laws below.


Title XXIII MOTOR VEHICLES
Chapter 316. STATE UNIFORM TRAFFIC CONTROL

316.130 Pedestrian obedience to traffic control devices and traffic regulations.

(3) Where sidewalks are provided, no pedestrian shall, unless required by other circumstances, walk along and upon the portion of a roadway paved for vehicular traffic.

(4) Where sidewalks are not provided, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall, when practicable, walk only on the shoulder on the left side of the roadway in relation to the pedestrian's direction of travel, facing traffic which may approach from the opposite direction.

(5) No person shall stand in the portion of a roadway paved for vehicular traffic for the purpose of soliciting a ride, employment, or business from the occupant of any vehicle.

(18) No pedestrian shall walk upon a limited access facility or a ramp connecting a limited access facility to any other street or highway; however, this subsection does not apply to maintenance personnel of any governmental subdivision.

(19) A violation of this section is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable pursuant to chapter 318 as either a pedestrian violation or, if the infraction resulted from the operation of a vehicle, as a moving violation.

318.14 Noncriminal traffic infractions; exception; procedures.

(1) ... any person cited for a violation of chapter 316 ... is charged with a noncriminal infraction and must be cited for such an infraction and cited to appear before an official. If another person dies as a result of the noncriminal infraction, the person cited may be required to perform 120 community service hours under s. 316.027(4), in addition to any other penalties.

316.003(42). Definitions

(19) LIMITED ACCESS FACILITY.--A street or highway especially designed for through traffic and over, from, or to which owners or occupants of abutting land or other persons have no right or easement, or only a limited right or easement, of access, light, air, or view by reason of the fact that their property abuts upon such limited access facility or for any other reason. Such highways or streets may be parkways from which trucks, buses, and other commercial vehicles are excluded; or they may be freeways open to use by all customary forms of street and highway traffic.

(42) ROADWAY.--That portion of a highway improved, designed, or ordinarily used for vehicular travel, exclusive of the berm or shoulder. In the event a highway includes two or more separate roadways, the term "roadway" as used herein refers to any such roadway separately, but not to all such roadways collectively.

(53) STREET OR HIGHWAY.--
(a) The entire width between the boundary lines of every way or place of whatever nature when any part thereof is open to the use of the public for purposes of vehicular traffic;

(b) The entire width between the boundary lines of any privately owned way or place used for vehicular travel by the owner and those having express or implied permission from the owner, but not by other persons, or any limited access road owned or controlled by a special district, whenever, by written agreement entered into under s. 316.006(2)(b) or (3)(b), a county or municipality exercises traffic control jurisdiction over said way or place;

(c) Any area, such as a runway, taxiway, ramp, clear zone, or parking lot, within the boundary of any airport owned by the state, a county, a municipality, or a political subdivision, which area is used for vehicular traffic but which is not open for vehicular operation by the general public; or

(d) Any way or place used for vehicular traffic on a controlled access basis within a mobile home park recreation district which has been created under s. 418.30 and the recreational facilities of which district are open to the general public.

Kind of Blued
September 18, 2008, 12:07 AM
He could have simply NOT picked up the hitch-hiker and remained both safe and in compliance with the law.

The fact that this was an option which he decided not to chose leads me to believe that he's in trouble.

jaholder1971
September 18, 2008, 12:11 AM
RULE:

NEVER PICK UP HITCHHIKERS!

If they're carrying illegal drugs, weapons, etc., then so are you.

Yoda
September 18, 2008, 12:12 AM
As long as you're not on an interstate, there's no law against picking up hitch-hikers in Florida. (There may not even be a law against it on the interstates.)

I've had some of my most interesting adventures after picking up hitch-hikers. One thing, though. I never suggest they put on their seat belt. If things go wrong, I've got a seat belt and an airbag and they get a concrete barrier.

I've picked up a guy who admitted right away that he had just gotten out of jail and was trying to get home, a guy who claimed that he had invented bar codes, two ladies who begged me to take them 200 miles out of my way so they could rush to the side of a crippled cousin who had been abadoned by his parents, a guy who had no idea how he had gotten where he was (all I remember was being at a party in another town), and so on.

The only really scary thing that ever happened was when I was stopped at a light and a guy JUMPED IN my car and started telling a BS story about being broke down and needing a new fanbelt and even though it was Christmas Day he knew a shop that was open but he'd need a few dollars because he left his wallet with his family in the broke down car... I didn't see a weapon, and as I said, if things went south, I was prepared to sacrafice the van (it was paid for and had over 200,000 miles on it) and launch him into the nearest overpass piling. Eventually, it just got too odd, so I stopped, gave him $5 and wished him "Merry Christmas." he ran off without even saying, "Thank you."

- - - Yoda

============

Blame Congress

hexidismal
September 18, 2008, 12:12 AM
What was the disturbance?

That's an awfully good question. There is likely a great deal more to the story if the man was somehow involved in a "disturbance in progress".


EDIT: Oh , and fair enough in regards to the legality of picking up hitchhikers. I did say I might not be right about that in the earlier post , it was just a thought.

VPLthrneck
September 18, 2008, 12:13 AM
The whole article is to vague. It makes a mention of a "disturbance in progress" but then jumps staight to "man with a gun." It would be nice to know what the disturbace is prior to disagreeing with the outcome.

I do like the comments on the article page: several people pointing out that this paper printed the names of the CCW holders in Okaloosa County. To me that's a bigger story than a vague article about a police arrest.

ColinthePilot
September 18, 2008, 12:16 AM
When I lived in FL, I kept it in my center console because it kept it accessible while keeping it concealed and IAW the law.

And I'm not dumb enough to pick up hitchhikers.

Ben86
September 18, 2008, 12:20 AM
That cop has a grave misunderstanding of semi-colons. From his understanding it would have to be in a glove compartment and holster and gun case and zippered gun case. What?!! It makes much more since when the semi-colon means "or."

He also must have completely over looked this part: "This subsection shall be liberally construed in favor of the lawful use, ownership, and possession of firearms and other weapons..."

"In favor" not against! I support cops like I support the troops, but some of the biggest socialist robots are cops. Keep them in check.

Mickstix
September 18, 2008, 12:24 AM
He's probably toast.. They'll say he didnt have to pick up a stranger/hitch-hiker.. On the deal about the semicolon meaning "and".. That cop obviously failed 5th grade english.. But like you said, it's not what the law says, but what the cop "thinks" the law says, that'll cost you mucho $$$...

Yoda
September 18, 2008, 12:36 AM
For those of you who say, "Never pick up hitch-hikers," let me emphasize that in the particular cases I mentioned above, I think most of you would have done the same.

The guy who admitted that he'd just gotten out of jail was walking down a lonely road in 98 degrees heat and 98 percent humidity, and from his location, I knew he had walked about 3 miles and had another 8 to go before he could get a drink. If someone didn't help, he'd be in real trouble, medical-wise.

The guy who couldn't remember how he got to Fort Walton Beach, after what must have been one hell of a party in Crestview, was stick out in a horrendous thunderstorm with lightning all around.

The ladies with the BS story about the crippled cousin were on a dark section of I-75 (south of Wildwood) after midnight, and they seemed to be frantic for someone to stop and help. Since there had just been a local Tampa news item about two other girls who had been abducted, raped, and dumped along a highway, I felt the imperative to check on them outweighed the potential risk to me. I'm now pretty sure that they were actually trucker lap-lizards who had been dumped, and with good cause.

And so on.... Most of the time, I'm sure they're giving me a story, but that guy who admitted that he'd just gotten out of jail, I believed him.

Hitchikers leaving drugs in your car? Always a risk. But if we're (sometimes) ready to come to the aid of another with a gun, then why not with a car/ride?

Anyone seen any windmills that need jousting?

- - - Yoda

=============

Mickstix
September 18, 2008, 12:44 AM
A couple of frantic women, at night, MAYBE! (If there cute) :D But the other times, no way.. I'll call em a cop if they look like they're in trouble.. But they aint gettin in my car unless it's a grave health emergency..

Blackbeard
September 18, 2008, 12:45 AM
Was it a hitchhiker, or a hooker?

jackdanson
September 18, 2008, 01:40 AM
Was it a hitchhiker, or a hooker?

Not any streetwalkers in Ft. Walton from my exp. (that didn't sound good, but that's not how I meant it)

I don't even like giving rides to people I work with, I'd be waaay to lazy to pick up a hitchiker.

Double Naught Spy
September 18, 2008, 07:01 AM
For those of you who say, "Never pick up hitch-hikers," let me emphasize that in the particular cases I mentioned above, I think most of you would have done the same.

The guy who admitted that he'd just gotten out of jail was walking down a lonely road in 98 degrees heat and 98 percent humidity, and from his location, I knew he had walked about 3 miles and had another 8 to go before he could get a drink. If someone didn't help, he'd be in real trouble, medical-wise.

Not my problem. A non-emergency on the part of a stranger does not constitute the necessity for me to compromise my safety.

NavyLCDR
September 18, 2008, 07:06 AM
Seems to me if the storage of the Glock did not meet the requirements specified in the law, he was in violation of it. He had two other choices, obvious to me anyway...

Not pick up the hitchhiker or
Lock the glovebox.

Stupid action on his part and his reward for stupid action.

wallask
September 18, 2008, 07:24 AM
In all my 50+ years of driving, I have NEVER picked up a hitchhiker. I just don't trust anybody sticking their thumb out.

tigre
September 18, 2008, 09:24 AM
I've seen hitchhikers in all sorts of conditions, but haven't ever been even slightly tempted to pick any of them up. If they don't want to be out on the road in the heat or rain or at night, then they need to arrange their lives in such a way that they don't wind up there. &%$# happens, obviously, but I'm not going to risk my own safety trying to be responsible for complete strangers.

I am curious Yoda, why you had your passenger door unlocked so someone could jump in. That's kind of scary, dude.

BruceRDucer
September 18, 2008, 09:26 AM
He did not have a concealed gun permit for the Glock,

He did not have a concealed gun permit for the Glock,

:scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

XDKingslayer
September 18, 2008, 10:53 AM
It is this last part where the officer and I disagreed. He said that the semi-colon (";") meant "and," thus a gun had to be in a glove box AND in a snapped holster with the holster in a locked case. I tried to explain to him that anyone with a grade-school understanding of the English language would know that the semi-colon meant "or." He said that I was wrong, and he brought in another officer who agreed with him, and the two of them assured me that I'd be arrested if I didn't comply with THEIR understanding of the law.

Again, thank you for proving, once again, that the last person to ask about gun laws are Florida cops. He's absolutely wrong on this.

Buy Gutmachers book on Florida gun laws. In fact, buy two and give one to your cop buddy. He needs to read it. Why police departments don't train their officers on this when it is so prevelant in Florida is beyond me. It's a false arrest and/or imprisonment lawsuit waiting to happen.

I used to recommend keeping the booklet that comes with your concealed carry permit package in your glove box. But I have found out that the only thing worse than telling a cop he is wrong is proving he is wrong.

The best person to ask for advice is a State or Assistant State Attorney from your local State's Attorney Office. They will do something the cops won't do. Pick up a statute book and read the damn thing...

Now, one piece of info I'd like to know is, was the Glock in a holster under the seat? If so, his attorney should have a field day with this case.

pbearperry
September 18, 2008, 10:56 AM
This is another thread that does not contain all the info.What's the point?

XDKingslayer
September 18, 2008, 10:59 AM
He did not have a concealed gun permit for the Glock,

So what?

That's the beauty about Florida. You can carry a holstered weapon any where in your car without a permit as long as it's not concealed on your person.

Aka Zero
September 18, 2008, 11:39 AM
I see not the words "hitchhiker".
It could have been giving a friend a ride, maybe a gun wary friend.....

But since one person says it... like sheep.

Anyway.
Gun, in a car. Is it a concealed weapon if the "cop can see it also"?

This could totally blow the case out of the water. "I could see the "concealed" weapon on the floor" Jury goes "what" walk out, 2 hours of your life wasted for cops not knowing the law.

Nathanael_Greene
September 18, 2008, 11:44 AM
Why was it necessary for the report to focus on the fact that the handgun was a Glock? Is that mediaspeak for "evil"?

Would it have made a difference had the gun been a Ruger? Or a Colt SAA?

XDKingslayer
September 18, 2008, 11:56 AM
Anyway.
Gun, in a car. Is it a concealed weapon if the "cop can see it also"?

This could totally blow the case out of the water. "I could see the "concealed" weapon on the floor" Jury goes "what" walk out, 2 hours of your life wasted for cops not knowing the law.

It's not a concealed weapon if the cop can see it, but it never said he was charged with carry a concealed weapon either.

The weapon, assuming it wasn't in a holster, wasn't securely encased according to Florida requirements. That will cause a problem.

But again, we don't know if it was in a holster or not. If it was, then the charges should be dropped.

heritageguy
September 18, 2008, 12:00 PM
If the deputy could see the gun under the seat then it's not concealed.

Still 2 Many Choices!?
September 18, 2008, 01:00 PM
Did I miss something or did the story say "20 years old"? I know there are ways for sub 21 year old to legally aquire a pistol, but that jumped out to me more than any of the hitchhicker sub- story :scrutiny: !

CountGlockula
September 18, 2008, 03:37 PM
Automobile manufacturers should invent a driver's side glovebox.

Aran
September 18, 2008, 04:09 PM
Did I miss something or did the story say "20 years old"? I know there are ways for sub 21 year old to legally aquire a pistol, but that jumped out to me more than any of the hitchhicker sub- story !

Might want to go check the laws in Florida.

SCKimberFan
September 18, 2008, 04:38 PM
18 year olds can possess guns, they just cannot buy them from an FFL.

Yoda
September 18, 2008, 05:35 PM
One poster asked why my door was unlocked. Well, IT JUST WAS. Actually, it was about 13 years ago, before I started carrying or worrying about the meaning of life and the universe and everything. I was driving down I-75, south of Macon, and I pulled off the interstate to get coffee. While at the end of the off-ramp, trying to decide which way to go, the dude just jumps in my car and starts talking. I didn't even see him until he was inside the van. JUST CALL ME FAT, DUMB AND HAPPY... and lucky.

I would wonder, though, about whether the law in Florida applies to a PARKED car. My wife and I have often stowed our concealed guns under a seat or a floormat when we go into a post office or courthouse. In these cases, I wouldn't interpret the Florida law regarding gloveboxes to apply. The car is not a vehicle when it is stopped. It is just a storage container.

Wow, I really wish I was the lawyer for the Glock guy. It would really be fun playing with his life and my layman's understanding of the law!

- - - Yoda


Blame Congress

.cheese.
September 18, 2008, 05:46 PM
That's the beauty about Florida. You can carry a holstered weapon any where in your car without a permit as long as it's not concealed on your person.

Um.... not even close.

You need to take a look at the laws again.

If after that you still think the above, I suggest you get a lawyer's business card and keep it handy.....

IANAL - but here is my take:

if the gun was immediately visible, then he is being cited for the wrong statute - it's open carry and he should win the JOA. If the gun was not immediately visible, then he's screwed. If this is his first offense, he'll probably get a year in jail or a few years of probation. I believe max on this is 5 years FSP, no?

bluewater
September 18, 2008, 05:55 PM
:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

craig
September 18, 2008, 06:16 PM
i thought a pawnshop that sold guns has to have an ffl. if so, they're in trouble.:eek:

also, there are hookers all over ft. walton. they usually bust 4-6 every week.

Double Naught Spy
September 18, 2008, 08:18 PM
Who said the pawn shop didn't have an FFL? If you are inferring that it didn't because the gun arrestee had a gun from a pawn shop and the arrestee wasn't 21, then the query is, Who said the arrestee was the one who purchased the gun at the pawn shop?

BruceRDucer
September 18, 2008, 08:59 PM
So what?

That's the beauty about Florida. You can carry a holstered weapon any where in your car without a permit as long as it's not concealed on your person.XDKingSlayer

Well I didn't know. (Never mind.) :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

bogie
September 18, 2008, 09:06 PM
Well, reading between the lines, I'm guessing that the fellow moved it from the glovebox to the seat side in view of the hitcher. Who, after he got his ride, proceeded to call the cops on a cell phone.

Last time I was in a car that picked up a hitcher, we had four football players in a volkswagen bug on I-75... Along with beer and good weed. After about five miles, the fellow decided that he had reached his destination.

Zach S
September 18, 2008, 11:19 PM
Never pick up hitchikers:rolleyes:

The optispark on my 9C1 went out 20 miles from home. A couple in their 50s picked me up, gave me a ride to my house, and refused gas money when I offered.

A while later on that same car something rubbed through the hot wire, shorted it, and that melted the battery terminal off of it. Yes, it melted the terminal off of the battery. I got a ride then to. I offered gas money, and it was refused.

I lost a Ujoint on I26 one day. Someone picked me up, took me to the parts house, and then back to my car. As always, I offered gas money, and as always, it was refused.

I've never had to walk far, and I'm far from a clean cut guy. If I dont have the wife and kid with me, I play the odds and offer someone someone help and/or a ride. As always, they'll offer gas money, and I'll refuse.

In one case I did have my daughter with me. I saw a car on the side of the I26 with the flashers going, and later saw a woman walking down the shoulder carrying her four year old son. When I asked why she left her car, she said she was sitting there for an hour, and no one stopped. Nor did anyone stop for a 35 year old woman carrying her four year old son for the mile between her car and mine. This is the only time I've taken payment for giving someone a ride. She replaced the 1 liter aquafina that I gave to her and her boy.

Old School
September 18, 2008, 11:45 PM
XDKingslayer Says:
That's the beauty about Florida. You can carry a holstered weapon any where in your car without a permit as long as it's not concealed on your person.

.Cheese Says
Um.... not even close.

You need to take a look at the laws again.

If after that you still think the above, I suggest you get a lawyer's business card and keep it handy.....

IANAL - but here is my take:

if the gun was immediately visible, then he is being cited for the wrong statute - it's open carry and he should win the JOA. If the gun was not immediately visible, then he's screwed. If this is his first offense, he'll probably get a year in jail or a few years of probation. I believe max on this is 5 years FSP, no?

According to Attorney Jon H. Gutmacher Esq. , who is considered one of Florida's foremost experts on Florida Firearms Law, XDKingslayer is absolutely correct. in Chapter Six: "TRANSPORTATION AND CARRYING OF WEAPONS, AND FIREARMS" Gutmacher specifically states : " a. in a holster - anywhere - loaded or unloaded". I highly recommend his book for all Florida gun owners. It can be found at: www.FloridaFirearmsLaw.com

M203Sniper
September 19, 2008, 03:51 AM
This violated the 3 of the four basic rules ;





Don't go stupid places.

Don't do stupid things.

Don't be around stupid people.

If you were wondering * yes it will * so don't.


;)

Yoda
September 19, 2008, 03:59 AM
What about the doctrine of competing harms? If the glove box could not be locked, then it would seem a prudent measure to remove the gun from the glove box and stow it elsewhere, out of the reach of the hitch-hiker. This would be even more justifiable if the hitch-hiker were a minor, give Florida's safe storage laws.

- - - Yoda

Blame Congress

=================

.cheese.
September 19, 2008, 08:59 AM
According to Attorney Jon H. Gutmacher Esq. , who is considered one of Florida's foremost experts on Florida Firearms Law, XDKingslayer is absolutely correct. in Chapter Six: "TRANSPORTATION AND CARRYING OF WEAPONS, AND FIREARMS" Gutmacher specifically states : " a. in a holster - anywhere - loaded or unloaded". I highly recommend his book for all Florida gun owners. It can be found at: www.FloridaFirearmsLaw.com

I have his book. However, I disagree on this point. The basic idea in "securely encased" (I'm assuming the Glock didn't qualify as not readily accessible) is that there is a step removing the user from being able to immediately use a gun. With most holsters, you have to take the gun out of the holster, to pull the trigger - BUT, the personal conveyance exemption from the CCF law applies to concealed carry. So, if a holster is superglued to say - the window of your car, and the gun is in it, it's in a holster, and securely encased, but not concealed in any way, so the personal conveyance exemption doesn't apply. I agree with XDKingSlayer on his point, minus the word "anywhere".

I'm not disagreeing with the idea of a holster. I'm disagreeing with the idea of anywhere.

I'll tell you what though. I'm on my way to work (legal intern), I'll double check the statutes and if the boss is cool with it, I'll even check Westlaw for case law on the issue.

IANAL - and I don't know everything. So, there is a possibility I'm wrong in this. I'll check during lunch.

It still isn't applicable to this case though. Assuming the guy is charged with CCF without a license, the gun wasn't in anything at all, so it doesn't come anywhere close to securely encased.

Double Naught Spy
September 19, 2008, 09:14 AM
What about the doctrine of competing harms? If the glove box could not be locked, then it would seem a prudent measure to remove the gun from the glove box and stow it elsewhere, out of the reach of the hitch-hiker. This would be even more justifiable if the hitch-hiker were a minor, give Florida's safe storage laws.

I don't recall there being exceptions to the law such that you get to break the law because you voluntarily do something that puts you in a position where not breaking the law would be unsafe. The obvious choice is to then NOT deal with the hitchhiker/rider.

SCKimberFan
September 19, 2008, 09:24 AM
Automobile manufacturers should invent a driver's side glovebox.

Nope, the responsibility belongs to the person with the gun, not the automobile manufacturer.

taprackbang
September 19, 2008, 09:27 AM
What a 'BS' arrest for a non-crime. Does not surprise me coming from 'Tazer happy' Florida!

XDKingslayer
September 19, 2008, 10:00 AM
cheese I think the Florida law is clear, as is their explanations of the laws they provide.

By their definition a holstered weapon sitting on your dash board for all the world to see is legal.

Please tell me what you disagree with on the "anywhere" part. I'd like to know what areas of a vehicle you feel a holstered weapon can't be.

I've done a precursory search on Westlaw for case law and didn't find anything.

Old School
September 19, 2008, 11:57 AM
cheese I think the Florida law is clear, as is their explanations of the laws they provide.

By their definition a holstered weapon sitting on your dash board for all the world to see is legal.

Please tell me what you disagree with on the "anywhere" part. I'd like to know what areas of a vehicle you feel a holstered weapon can't be.

I've done a precursory search on Westlaw for case law and didn't find anything.
I interpret the book this way too. While I accept Gutmacher's interpretation based on his experience and knowledge of Florida case law, I am not a fan of pushing my luck either. He makes it clear time and again that just because it is the law, it does not mean that police will know the law. So, for me, if the need arises, I will store in a holster and in the console or glove box.

XDKingslayer
September 19, 2008, 01:19 PM
I will store in a holster and in the console or glove box.


As do I but it's more to protect the gun than to protect my lack of incarceration.

wyocarp
September 19, 2008, 02:10 PM
There are times to pick up someone with their thumb out. I live in Wyoming and people can die out in the cold when they become stranded. I have given numerous people rides in the past years, but generally there is a requirement. You had better look decent and your vehicle needs to look respectable. Even then, they will generally quickly notice that I am armed.

.cheese.
September 19, 2008, 05:02 PM
whoops.... I totally forgot about this issue until now when I just got back home. Too bad, I left early too and could have been looking this up right now.

I'll have to wait until Monday to check. If anybody else has a Westlaw access that wouldn't be less-than-kosher to use during off-time, maybe they can check up on this and any case law on the matter - post the results. I'm curious.

I might be mistaken. If I am, and it's technically legal to have a holstered gun anywhere in your car, including plain view, I think we all can agree that if nothing else, it's unwise to do anything that is not 100% clearly legal, reasonable, and would appeal to common sense. With that in mind, with my CCW permit, it's either on me and concealed, or concealed in my vehicle in a practical yet accessible way. If I didn't have a CCW permit, I'd put it in a holster, and in the glove-box (somehow with the holster held in place so that access would be opening the glove-box and drawing. I would imagine that is about as kosher legally as it gets yet quickly accessible and practical.

Scoutsout2645
September 19, 2008, 05:27 PM
From a LEO's perspective (operating under the same lack of real facts that the rest of us are) I see a couple problems for the lad:
1) a 20-year-old Navarre man need to be 21 for handguns, right?

2)who told him (the Sheriff's Deputy) he had a Glock under his driver's seat. this eliminates suppression based on search violations. Defendant admits to possession of something he is inherently not allowed to possess, thereby giving the Deputy the right to secure the weapon even though it's not in plain view.

3)The deputy could also see the gun Plain view observation of something the defendant is not allowed to have.

4)he'd had the gun in his glovebox...he moved the weapon eliminates any defense that he was unaware that the weapon was in the vehicle

The "competing harms" doctrine would probably not apply since the defendant voluntarily picked up the passenger KNOWING that he had a gun in the vehicle AND that he was unable to store the gun safely and legally with that passenger present AND there was no exigent circumstance forcing him to pick up that passenger. (ie: while you might be arrested and charged with DWI, you can bring a defense in Court that you were in imminent danger at the bar/house etc you were at, had no other alternative--no phone, cab service, etc-- and HAD to drive to remove yourself from imminent bodily injury )

Also, reading the statute you provided (and without access to other caselaw sources that may expand on this statute) I would say the LEO telling you that a gun had to be in a glove box AND in a snapped holster with the holster in a locked case was incorrect. The semi-colon does nothing but separate distinct elements in a list or series. The critical element is the qualifier in the last element:
...; OR in a closed box or container (emphasis mine). If this was AND then your friend would be correct, but by using the word OR the statute says that you need to fulfil only one of these restrictions.
To meet your friend's interpretation, the law should read:
" 'Securely encased' means in a glove compartment, whether or not locked, AND ;snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case; OR in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access."

If the Glock was under the seat, but not in a holster, (apart from being dangerous to your third point of contact) it is a violation of this statute.

.cheese.
September 19, 2008, 05:35 PM
this eliminates suppression based on search violations. Defendant admits to possession of something he is inherently not allowed to possess, thereby giving the Deputy the right to secure the weapon even though it's not in plain view.

IANAL, but IMO: Not necessarily. The link doesn't work for me so I can't read the full story, but it could be suppressed a number of ways.

1) Was the call an anonymous tip? If so, was it corroborated by independent police work that led to reasonable suspicion? If not - that's one way.

2)) What caused the officer to single out this guy? Was it a traffic stop during the course of responding to the call? Was it a bad traffic stop, as in, the officer really didn't have a good reason to make a stop? If so, there's another way.

3) .... well, IANAL so frankly I'm out of ideas.... but I'd think some lawyer here on the board can think of something creative.

need to be 21 for handguns, right?

My understanding of the handgun age thing is that you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun from an FFL, but not necessarily 21 to own a handgun. I think you only have to be 18 to own a handgun and I think you can buy one through a private sale if you're 18. Of course, again I could be wrong, so don't quote me on that.

makarovnik
September 19, 2008, 05:47 PM
I think some of the laws about how to transport a weapon in a car are silly. You are usually at a disadvantage if you don't have a CPL. I have one so I always carry it on my person. Otherwise I carry it in the glovebox and legally I think I have to empty it and keep all ammo and magazines in a separate compartment.

Again, I don't know the exact laws in my state because the safest bet for me is to keep it on my person. I also think an arrest rather than a fine or confiscation of the weapon was a little excessive. Bummer.

jaholder1971
September 20, 2008, 12:40 AM
For those of you who say, "Never pick up hitch-hikers," let me emphasize that in the particular cases I mentioned above, I think most of you would have done the same.

(much snipped)

Sorry Yoda, but i've read your stories and they've solidified my thinking that one should NEVER, EVER pick up hitchhikers under any circumstances.

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